Putins pledges are not worth the ink used to make them
Go sign up for the ukranian military if you want to see more grist for the meat grinder, coward
What a dumbfuck line of reasoning. “If you’re not willing to die for it yourself, I guess you should just accept it, hmm?”
Because advocating for it to continue is sending others to their death. Same energy as wanting president’s children on the front line, because without that understanding, people are way more willing to advocate continuing slaughter
The dumbest dictator ass licking boot licking always come from hexbears. When will every other instance finally defederate from you fascist loving idiots.
Go to the Russian military, they will love a she/they like you there.
Liberals try not to be homophobic/transphobic for two fucking seconds challenge.
You are just like the Zionists that say the same about people standing with the people of Gaza.
I would say more but it would go against this instance civility rules, you’ll just have to get creative with your imagination to know how we feel about the likes of you.
No u. You’re clearly a nazi, so you’ll fit in just fine with Azov.
The options are a peace deal or a destruction of one of the parties, and Russia is not going to be destroyed by this.
What direction would you prefer for the people living in Ukraine?
lol are you stupid
‘Russia is not going to X’ is a very weak argument, and over the last 10 years Russia crossed many of those Xs, regardless of you thinking it’s not going to.
But the X here is not about a Russian foreign policy decision per se, but about their overall military standing as part of their invasion of Ukraine.
Yeah, they lost black sea fleet almost completely, burned way over 30k lives to take over ruins of Bakhmut, about the same to destroy and 'take over’s Avdiivka, got royally fucked with the assault on Vovchansk and Sumy direction, emptied their stock of towed artillery and APCs, had to borrow and from China, Iran and fucking North Korea, got sanctioned so much that rouble is now in free trade with yuan, committed genocide and ecocide, and generally lost over half a million of soldiers while aiming for week-long speed run to kill Nazi Jew zelenski. But sure this only made them stronger.
Upd: oh boi do I forget to mention that for half a year Ukraine was effectively feigning of f the entire Russian army while having close to no weapons, and delivering majority of strikes with $500/piece plastic toys
In your first paragraph, you repeat an assessment handed down to Western propaganda. Were it true, it would be very surprising to find the reality that Russia dominates the Black Sea and Ukraine and NATO (we’ll ignore Turkey, who doesn’t really care lol) has no presence there. It would also be surprising to discover that the overall Russian economy is better than pre-war and that they are having no manpower issues, and are, in fact, now advancing on Ukrainian positions.
This is understandable, as the false prospect of a Ukrainian win is important for the propaganda apparatus that actually cares far more about hurting Russia than securing a future for Ukrainians.
But all of this is somewhat moot because it bears little relation to the point I made. Or maybe I am missing something? Please be explicit.
I repeat literally assessments of Russians, and claims of Putin himself. Domination of the black sea surely means evacuation of remains of Crimean fleet to Novorossisk, and almost complete absence of russian military in the black and Azov sea - confirmed by satellite imagery. Russia tried to turn hunger into weapon trying to block ships passing to Ukrainian ports, and failed - their unilateral withdrawal from the Istanbul agreement
I agree that russia braced their economics very well and handled the sanctioned better than most anticipated. However, the pressure mounts and the government is forced to raise taxes - surely not a sign of a blooming economy. Recent Ukrainian targeted hits at major refineries, turning Russia to import fuels - this is important both in military and economical contexts.
What I say is Russia is worse than it was at the beginning, despite territorial gains.
I repeat literally assessments of Russians, and claims of Putin himself. Domination of the black sea surely means evacuation of remains of Crimean fleet to Novorossisk, and almost complete absence of russian military in the black and Azov sea - confirmed by satellite imagery. Russia tried to turn hunger into weapon trying to block ships passing to Ukrainian ports, and failed - their unilateral withdrawal from the Istanbul agreement
Russians are people like anyone else. You, of course, can therefore find them saying just about anything. There is little overlap between what you have said and what Putin had said though I don’t know why I should care about that.
I think you may be falling victim to propaganda when it comes to the Black Sea. Ukraine has nothing there. Nada. Zilch. The stories that are accurate describe the targeting and destruction of Russian vessels. Logically from what I just said, these are true. But Russia maintains its dominant presence, particurly in the Azov Sea.
I am interested, or maybe anticipating entertainment, by your idea that satellite imagery confirms your claim. My experience with such ideas is with teenagers pretending to know how to analyze raster imagery and lying through their teeth about it because it suits the needs of propaganda. This is what often gets filtered into the press. Please show me your Black Sea dataset with no Russian vessels, I would love to see it. I can even analyze it for the presence of vessels if you give me the data. Preferably, tiled GeoTIFF. I suspect, realistically, that you have third-hand information from propagandists, and can give me no such information. I anticipate disappointment.
I agree that russia braced their economics very well and handled the sanctioned better than most anticipated. However, the pressure mounts and the government is forced to raise taxes - surely not a sign of a blooming economy.
That is no such thing. Under a forced national industrial investment regime, a capitalist government raising taxes should be expected. There is a Russian neoliberal faction that threatens to throw a wrench into things but they have been forced into less stupid positions by circumstance.
Recent Ukrainian targeted hits at major refineries, turning Russia to import fuels - this is important both in military and economical contexts.
Important, yes. But why think it is good for Ukraine? More pressure on Russia only increases the likelihood that they adopt a typical sociopathic Western war strategy of complete destruction civilian life. That is something that has not actually happened. It’s something I was wrong about in 2022. I did not think that Russia, a regional capitalist power, would use such restrained tactics. I had to rethink my understanding of Western psychology and militarism, as it is actually qualitatively different (and morw horrible) than every other instance. I had, falsely, projected cold Western logic onto others.
What I say is Russia is worse than it was at the beginning, despite territorial gains.
All economic indicators disagree, particularly when it comes to industrial capacity.
Ukraine is far from spotless on the treaty-upholding-front. The current government was installed by the US, which is in direct breach of the Budapest Memorandum. The government has broken Minsk I and II which was a large part of the russian justification for the SMO.
whatever russia says, they mean to do the opposite. they’ve been pulling this nonsense from the start and this is no different, and we know this because they are STILL THERE. if they wanted peace, THEY’D LEAVE. ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded. there is no logic to this argument. it’s like ordering cheese and wondering why you are served cheese. it’s plain and dumb.
Isn’t it interesting that the official US gov line on Gaza, a sealed off prison zone currently experiencing a second Holocaust that the zionist entity has no intention of stopping, is that “Hamas could end this any time”
But the nazi coup government of Ukraine, which doesn’t even have public support and which has rejected every peace offering for years and have broken multiple treaties because they just couldn’t stop slaughtering their own people in the east…they are the smol beans with nowhere to go.
You have internalized a perfectly backwards propagandistic framing of the situation: It is the Kyiv regime that can end this tomorrow by simply accepting that the people of the Donbas region do not want to be ruled by them. Russia has no interest in western Ukraine, no interest in ruling a bunch of people who hate them, they want a buffer zone so they don’t have a warmongering authoritarian power’s nukes on their border
. I mean shit, we’ve been bombing their nuclear detection radar stations lately. If that’s not the action of a deranged empire playing with the lives of the entire world, nothing is. Can you fucking imagine what the reaction would be if they were doing that to us? We would have scoured the planet of life by this point.Get some perspective. Attitudes like yours are why we’re so close to nuclear armageddon right now.
The Ukrainian state forces it’s people to fight and does not allow them to leave. It has a choice and that choice is to listen to it’s people and accept peace.
If you think they should fight despite the fact that they do not wish to, then go volunteer yourself. Otherwise let the people decide for themselves.
Also your suggestion that they should leave is funny. I mean yeah if we’re in Fantasyland sure, they should leave. I also think Putin should give everyone a pony. Sadly we live in a world where Putin hasn’t given me a pony, a world were parties doesn’t give up leverage before a negotiation.whatever russia says, they mean to do the opposite
This is silly. Do you think Russian politicians are always just having fun playing this word game or something?
they’ve been pulling this nonsense from the start and this is no different, and we know this because they are STILL THERE. if they wanted peace, THEY’D LEAVE.
That doesn’t make any sense. Their occupation is leverage. Giving up leverage always puts you in a worse negotiating position. The original causes of the invasion are also unresolved. What you are essentially suggesting is that Russia capitulate for the third time re: Ukraine and hope for a different outcome. The reason they invaded in the first place is that nobody in leadership, rationally, thinks they should fall for that again.
The outcome you would like to see is likely impossible. So what possible outcome do you want?
ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded. there is no logic to this argument. it’s like ordering cheese and wondering why you are served cheese. it’s plain and dumb.
I think this might just be a misunderstanding. Of course Ukraine can’t un-invade itself. And I agree that Ukraine doesn’t have much choice, but I think so in a different way. They don’t have much choice because they are not really a sovereign county. Their terms are heavily influenced by Western powers. The original attempts at a peace deal we blown up by Westwen leaders. This is unfortunate for the people of Ukraine, as they don’t deserve to die just so that Western countries can try to stick it to Russia.
I think the best outcome is to achieve a peace deal as quickly as possible.
ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded
You are right in that they have nowhere to go but it’s because NATO won’t let them accept peace but will force them to keep fighting until that last working class Ukrainian is dead. Russia is literally offering them a way out of more bloodshed right now, literally the topic of this post. They also could have avoided all of this by simply honoring the Minsk Agreements, but it was Ukraine breaking those agreements (including by shelling their own people in the east) that led to Russia “invading” by entering a conflict that had already been initiated by Ukraine trying to ethnically cleanse the east. It’s funny you start by saying that Russia is untrustworthy, but Ukraine and NATO are the ones who very explicitly and admittedly broke their agreements.
Russia has repeatedly promised not to invade Ukraine, right up to the point where they did. First in 2014, then in 2020. There is no use signing any kind of treaty with a government like that, or else the Ukrainian people are going to go through this again in a couple of years.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say Russia promised not to invade in 2014. 2014 is the year of Euromaidan’s aftermath, of the illegitimacy of Ukraine’s government and, namely, the Russian annexation of Crimea. Russia entered Crimea in 2014, military. Depending on your perspective, it literally invaded Ukraine in 2014.
The war will end with either the destruction of one party or a peace deal. You are implying there should not be a peace deal because Russia is untrustworthy. Then you must be, against all odds and material reality, hoping that Ukraine defeats the entirety of Russia.
Libs who think this offer is a bad thing, live in a completely invented reality
Oh man, love this idea. I’m gonna try it on my bank. “Here’s the deal, I keep all the money that I’ve already stolen, and you have to agree not to call the cops or hire any additional security.” Brilliant.
Not sure what the bank is supposed to get out of it though.
Maybe if you were producing three times more shells than the whole of NATO, you could pull that off.
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If military superiority were measured in size, Putin could’ve had his two day war. Alas, they have only displayed inferiority which continues to damage Russia’s economy, population, and global reputation, despite Ukrainian boots remaining at home. It seems Putin has finally looked further down the timeline and realised his forces are incapable of taking Ukraine, let alone the strenuous task of occupying a very resistive nation.
Show me where Putin claimed this would be a 2-day war.
They can’t show you. Because he never said that and Russia never expected that. These geniuses don’t understand the concept of attrition and apparently think Putin doesn’t either. But that won’t stop them from just making shit up that sounds nice to them, especially if it helps them cope with the reality that their team Ukraine is losing bad and has no chance of ever getting back the territories it was so fond of shelling even before Russia got there.
I knew this already of course, but reading through this thread has been a great reminder that NATO bootlickers will just make up whatever shit they want that fits the narrative that they like to believe, and they will just run with it. Even when the exact opposite is true and they are obviously 100% projecting, like saying it was Russia that broke agreements that literally anyone can check to see that NATO country leaders admitted to breaking. It’s so wild to me how much these lemitors will screech about Russian propaganda but then turn around and happily drink deep from the US state department propaganda water fountain… and then ask for a firehose instead.
In the analogy, I have a whole lot of their money. You never watch Heat? Like that, but I didn’t fuck it up thanks to my many years of watching heist movies and playing Payday 2.
“Superior military power.” Lol good one. 😂
What are you saying? That Ukraine is a stronger military force than all Russia?
At least on their home turf with their western equipment, yes. Russia is throwing pretty much everything at Ukraine, and Ukraine is doing pretty well.
No, but they are more military competent unlike Russia. Competent military vs conscripts with shitty equipment/no equipment. There is a difference here and this is after they are running out of ammunition to fight and are barely allowed to return fire into Russia.
Where are you getting this information? Anything I’ve heard , even from fairly typical western sources, say Ukraine is not doing great and that Russia (given that it’s the world’s 4th largest economy) is clearly the victor.
Russia is more like 8th, and Ukraine is backed by multiple countries that outrank Russia.
When you consider Purchasing power, Russia is fourth.
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Also worth noting that Russia has not made any real significant territorial advances since the start of the war despite hundreds of thousands of casualties while massively burning down their inheritance of old soviet systems. It’s not just Ukraine who hasn’t been able to change that.
Conflicts like this aren’t just determined by military strength, as there is defender advantage, political will to fight, western aid, etc. to consider that could change the balance. I would agree that Russia had the edge right now, but that’s definitely something that can change.
Ukraine on its own, you could argue this. Ukraine with its alliances? No way.
That is the current situation, Ukraine with its alliances are still gradually losing militarily
Plus they’re asking for more money that they haven’t stolen yet. Russia doesn’t even control large parts of the territory it’s decided to annex.
Putin is an idiot for seeking a truce. The only way this war ends is with the total demilitarization of not only Ukraine, but all of western Europe.
StalinPutin shouldn’t have stopped atBerlinBakhmut.Offering someone a peace deal when you know they wont take it is a chad move. Just like Hamas saying it will disarm in exchange for a prisoner swap and a lasting end to hostilities.
The only way to end this war is to retreat from the war, stop fighting and killing and just chill already. But that will never be the case with a maniac like Putin and his minions in charge.
That wouldn’t end the war, that would result in the continued wholesale slaughter of eastern Ukranians by their own government, the thing that Russia jumped in to stop in the first place. Please stop thinking about geopolitics in childish terms of maniacs and minions, life is not a Marvel movie.
That wouldn’t end the war, that would result in the continued wholesale slaughter of eastern Ukranians by their own government
Did Ukraine do that? Genuine question, not really educated in the pre-war history. Sounds a bit unbelievable to me at first glance. Feel free to provide reading material.
Please stop thinking about geopolitics in childish terms of maniacs and minions, life is not a Marvel movie.
Of course not. I wanted to keep it short and on point.
However, war will continue as long as there are forces at play who want the war. Putin is certainly one of these war-driving forces, as well ashis minionshis top-people in military and politics. Given the expansionistic approach, the numerous threats, even against children, creates a pretty insane picture.Genuine question, not really educated in the pre-war history.
Yes. The Minsk I and Minsk II treaties were brokered between Russia and Ukraine. These treaties required Ukraine to stop shelling the LPR and DPR. Ukraine continued to shell these two regions despite these treaties. This was part of Russia’s justification for their “Special Military Operation” which evolved into the full-scale war we see today (I consider them separate due to the fact Russia did not target critical infrastructure during the SMO, this doctrine only changed after further escalation).
These regions have a majority of ethnic Russians which is why they were targeted for shelling after Euromaidan in 2014. Since then tensions have only escalated.
Azov battalion have been integrated into the Ukrainian army. Part of their ideology is to rid Ukraine of Russians (this includes Ukrainian Russians.)
Sources:- Bombings of civilians
- a news report about the bombing of civilians
- war crimes fighting separatists in these regions
For “anti-ethnic-russian sentiment”: - Ukraine attempted to ban Russian and Yiddish in 2019
- Ukraine has now banned Russian language books, music
- This democratic nation banned 11 parties for being “pro-russian”
Several of the sources linked in this comment touches on the subject as well as things that happened more than two years ago.
Currently the Ukrainian army shows a callous disregard for civilians using them as human shields. This does not foster a sense of people being safe under the Ukrainian government.
Putin is certainly one of these war-driving forces, as well as his minions.
Lmao Putin is a politician like so many others, not some moustache twirling villain. You’re not really providing any reason for war apart from “Putin bad”. Yes, Putin indeed bad, but Putin not entirety of Russian state apparatus, Putin can’t snap his fingers and have his will exerted. This war has support among the populace and the political elite, if it didn’t them Prigozhins coup would have had much more support. The political elite and population also don’t support the war because they’re evil, but for material reasons. Putin is actually on the less militant side in the Russian attitude, he has been widely critiqued for now immediately fully escalating to a war instead of an SMO and he has been critiqued for not doing it sooner. This video is a good surface level primer for why Russia has been motivated to do as it did.
Hey we’ve got a military genius over here! Yes you’re right, the way wars are negotiated is that the winning side completely gives up all terrain because we think they’re stupid meanies and then they can ask for a peace pretty please.
Okay I just talked to Putin and he said they weren’t going to leave and then negotiate, he called me stupid for suggesting it and asked me if I lived in fantasy land.
To be fair, that would have been the first time I’m history a peace deal was negotiated like that.
I think it was a very calculated move actually. He did this right before the Switzerland circus, and it forced the west to say that they reject peace. This shows the rest of the world that it is indeed the west that wants the war to keep going which makes it impossible for western diplomats to go around claiming that Russia doesn’t want peace.
You clearly vastly underestimate the Western diplomatic cores ability to lie in the face of obvious fact and get away with it
lol that’s true, they will go on to make clowns of themselves regardless
I think more like an orc than the so-called orcs lol
Wouldn’t Russia promise not to attack Ukraine if they drop their nuclear weapons?
Why don’t they just agree and join NATO anyway?
“Why don’t they just continue to lie and break treaties and do whatever they want instead?” - deffinitly the good guys
- They’d lose their territory.
- Because the process takes time, and NATO doesn’t admit new members in active conflict with Russia. All Russia has to do to stop the next bid is invade again.
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Turkey would probably informed Russia immediately, or maybe Polish minister would brag on twitter like in case of Nordstream sabotage.
Yeah, something of that proportion could not be kept secret even if all NATO member states were all in total agreement and unity and even with the avowed silence of high officials. It also would at least partially defeat the purpose of NATO if a state joining it were to be kept secret.
I’ll answer in two parts.
First, don’t assume a post-peace-deal Ukraine would be allowed into NATO. There has never been any serious attempt to allow them in. Just threats for Ukraine to begin the process. It is not unlikely that NATO wouldn’t even let them in.
Second, Russia could just invade again.
Presumably there are enough sane Ukrainian officials left to not want to wake up to nuclear hellfire.
Because that eould be admitting defeat which loses a ton of territory and abandons a lot of Ukranian.
Russia is not anywhere close to winning the war, so there is no reason to capitulate.
Ukraine has been reduced to sending press gangs to kidnap old men to the front lines.
Nice try, robot
There is absolutely reason to capitulate: the fact that the Ukrainian Armed Forces have an average age above 40 and are absolutely scraping the barrel by conscripting any poor man they find. There is no universe where Ukraine pushes back the front to recover any substantial amount of territory. They have already attempted to launch counteroffensives in better conditions, and all they’ve achieved is to slow down Russia, never actually regaining any territory. The only reason they’re even in the war still is because NATO wants to sacrifice Ukrainian lives to weaken Russia, and corrupt Ukrainian politicians are making a quick buck by privatizing they country in the meantime. This is obviously not sustainable long term; in another year or two they won’t be able to recruit more people, or they’ll run out of artillery shlels.
What does “winning the war” look like to you?
This isn’t capitulation, this is cutting your losses while you have something left to hold onto.
The average age of the ukrainian
forced conscriptfighter is 43. NATO countries have emptied their stockpiles and are struggling to rearm, hampering their abilities to deal with other crises (like Ansar Allah), the West is staring down the barrel of a massive recession as gas prices still climb and production falls lower and lower. Russia is still able to produce enough shells to maintain a stockpile, and manages to hold and advance its fronts when it wishes, something that cannot be said for Ukraine or NATO.
The ukrainians do not wish to fight. They are being kidnapped to the front, their passports are taken from them. Why should this war continue? Russia is still ascendant, the ukrainians do not wish to fight, and they have just now received an incredibly generous offer? If you still believe this cause is necessary, why do you not volunteer? Ukraine needs bodies.
Can’t join NATO with an existing territorial dispute. “Agreeing and joining NATO anyways” would be an official admission by the Ukrainian government that the territories currently held by Russia are not part of Ukraine anymore.
well that’s 2 absolute shit ass takes from “@midwest.social” in this thread, they’re not sending their best
I was asking a question and received many helpful and some not so helpful answers.
The answer is nuclear war hope that helps
Sometimes even realists and historical materialists wake up on the wrong side of the bed, and aren’t in the mood to answer the same question again, especially when it’s often asked in bad faith.
Listen, the pollen count has been through the roof here lately, we can’t breathe well enough to get oxygen to the brain.
I made this comment more or less jokingly, but today I’m actually miserable. Jokes on me.
(This was the best emoji for pollen I could think of)That’s about right lol
Joining NATO would mean nuclear holocaust. Thankfully some people are rational enough to realise that this would be a bad thing. Joining NATO in spite of pledging not to would also delegitimize NATO and Ukraine in the eyes of the international community furthering the developing multipolarity we see. There is also the question of wether or not NATO membership is even on the table for Ukraine. Before the war Zelensky was informed he had to pretend it was, while having been informed it wasn’t behind closed doors.
Pinky promise I’ll stop fighting you if you just let me have all your stuff and stop asking other people for help.
You found about this war 8 years after the Ukrainians began bombing children. You will never come to grips with reality. I don’t pity people like you any longer. 👍
If Ukraine wanted a deal that was in their favor, they would have implemented the Minsk agreements that they signed, and most of the war would have been averted and they would have been able to keep Donbas. But for Azov it was always about ethnic cleansing Eastern Ukraine, so even that was a nonstarter.
Russia is the one engaged in ethnic cleansing. Ukraine was strong armed into signing the Minsk agreement, and Russia dissolved it before their invasion. It’s almost like ceding territory to Russia for ceasefires is a futile process of appeasement that will result in piecemeal conquest by the invaders.
Ukraine dissolved the Minsk agreement by breaking it, moron
Russia broke it by stationing soldiers and military equipment in Donetsk and Luhansk. They also broke the ceasefire by invading.
So is this what someone told you and you believed it, or are you just straight making shit up?
Merkel (and others, but most famously Merkel) openly boasted about how the Minsk Agreements were designed to buy more time to arm Ukraine for the conflict they were intentionally and actively trying to provoke, and weren’t ever serious attempts at peace. What Russia did wrong in that case was to be apparently stupid enough to believe Ukraine and the western backers would honor the Minsk Agreements. Russia rolling into Ukraine was a result of the breaking of Minsk.
Sounds like we’re in agreement that Russia broke the ceasefire by invading.
As for the stationing of troops and equipment, it’s well documented they were sending shipments of equipment in weekly.
In regards to Ukraine arming themselves, no shit, they had just been invaded. There was nothing in the Minsk agreement that said Ukraine couldn’t defend itself from future invasions. Russia was party to the Minsk agreements, and required to remove their forces and military equipment, but did the opposite, sending more. Germany was not forbidden by the agreements to assist Ukraine.
Russia is the one engaged in ethnic cleansing.
You don’t know what started the conflict, do you? You think Russia invaded just for gits and shiggles.
Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. If that wouldn’t have happened, there wouldn’t be any war, because the ‘separatists’ movements were just a bunch of hobos. This is confirmed by Strelkov and Borodai. Are you gonna object them?
Russia invaded for territory. It’s not unprecedented, it’s one of the most common reasons for a country to invade a neighbor, and they’ve done it before.
lmao okay bud maybe try reading something at some point
Sorry but most people don’t read Pravda
‘8 years of bombing children’ is an argument that was disproved by people who started this war in 2014 (also absolutely coincidentally they were Russians). Also I challenge you to provide proofs for massive bombing campaign that Ukraine unleashed towards Donetsk/Luhansk region, for 8 years.
Learn something new, you muppet.
The war will have to end with a peace deal or the destruction of one of the parties. Russia is doing fine while UA is falling apart.
What do you think is the best option for the people that live in Ukraine?
lol are you stupid?
The best option is russia going home. The worst option is being made a part of the country ruled by the murderous psychopath.
I think it’s best not to focus too much on Putin. He is the head of a faction and only rules by the consent of the ruling class of Russia. He is adept at managing that position but when he dies there’s little reason to think that would mean a substantial change in policy.
Re: Russia going home, I agree that the best course is for the war to end, which of course necessitates the withdrawal of Russian troops.
Without nato membership, nothing prevents Russia from trying again once they’ve regenerated their forces. Russia has already broken their promise to
reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE [Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe] Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine
So Russians pledges are worth less than nothing.
Toying with NATO membership is the most surefire way to ensure the complete destruction of Ukraine.
I think many people have forgotten the brutality with which Western countries wage war. They see the (still very real) horrors in Ukraine and are told to think of them as dramatically terrible, unconscionable, in a way they have never treated Western actions, including literally NATO actions and/or major NATO member actions.
The United States destroyed virtually all of Iraq’s major civilian infrastructure during the Gulf War, then imposed sanctions that caused mass death, especially of children. Millions of deaths. When it returned in 2003 it again targeted civilian infrastructure and massive bombing campaigns, focusing on the complete destruction of all capabilities regardless of what cultural artifacts or population centers were demolished.
Now, I know how some propagandized thought patterns go. Some people reading this might think my point is to draw attention to a “who is worse?” competition. But this is not my point.
My point is that Russia has been and is entirely capable of waging that same kind of brutal, truly monstrous Western military campaign. They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons, though this restraint has been cracking since UA has started targeting Russian population centers.
A continued maximum pressure campaign that credibly threatens actual NATO membership for Ukraine (everyone knows it’s not currently credible) risks the war turning into one that is unrestrained, i.e. the destruction of civilian infrastructure, mass death, and upturning all of Ukrainian society.
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Is your political analysis exactly as sophisticated as, “I better call them Russian if I don’t know what to do”?
It seems so. Please give yourself more respect.
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No my political analysis is more sophisticated than yours based on your previous aided comments.
I am excited to hearthis sophisticated analysis.
And yes I said aided because the words you type aren’t your own. Your English grammar isn’t natural and it’s quite awkward, it’s good just not natural. you need more training.
I’m writing precisely and with many neutral framings so that the people reading have more of an opportunity to process without feeling alienated. You will find this styles like this to be fairly common when among people who often need to disagree with one another about a political topic but wasn’t to keep the group together.
So if I may provide a “protip” to you and your superiors in Russia or India or where ever you’re operating out of I would highly suggest more classes in natural speech and writing. Right now you look like you copy and paste directly from a chatgpt client. In fact that’s exactly what you’re doing.
You said you had a more sophisticated analysis and I was hoping to hear it. Now you’re announcing that you believe some nonsense you just made up on the spot. Disappointing.
in the span of 24 hours you’ve started posting on Lemmy again after a year off. A year ago your comments were different. no where near as elaborate and the grammar was different, also more spelling mistakes from a year ago.
Yes I’ve decided to try out this approach with this account. So far it’s going about as I expected.
And then you went back to how you type now. One moment your spelling and grammar are great, the next they’re not, so it’s painfully obvious multiple people are using your account. And it’s not like you change up your habits based on what community you post to, no you change your habits on a whim. you call people bro and you say “y’all” or “yo” one moment and a few hours later you’re back on chatgpt text.
Ah, so it’s an LLM and multiple people? The plot thickens! The idea that someone writes differently than you is clearly far less likely. It’s a conspiracy!
and you follow all the same tropes that known foreign trolls are known to do. post in news, world news annnnnd personal finance communities. That’s the tell that all you guys give away, constantly.
I think you should look up the definition of the word “trope”.
I do focus on news posts, sure. I’m interested in geopolitical analysis. I didn’t know that this was something that you would find upsetting. Where do you prefer that people post about that content?
I mean we can debate all you want but I have zero desire to talk to a copy and pasting ruskie bot.
We haven’t debated at all. You just said something silly, I pointed that out, and now you’re just loudly confusing yourself about something else.
They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons, though this restraint has been cracking since UA has started targeting Russian population centers.
lol
I am referring to Russia destroying some Ukrainian civilian infrastructure and to Ukraine killing civilians. Which of those do you find funny?
The funny part is how obvious your lies are. Unless you think all the death and destruction in Ukraine is not actually that but just western propaganda… Which you probably do, based on your post history.
Tldr: lol, tankie!
There is a lot of death and destruction in Ukraine. I’m not sure why you’d think my position is anything else.
Perhaps you could ask questions instead?
Because you claimed that russia can wage brutal wars but they haven’t so far, that they have showed restraint. And all the videos of hospitals and schools and residential buildings and Bucha, etc. Prove otherwise.
And no need to ask questions because I already know all the answers, I’ve read putin’s version of the history, I don’t need to hear it from you as well.
The Western narrative on Bucha is fraught and reeka of propaganda. This is not to excuse Russia of the horrors of war, which are great, nor its overall system of governance. But there is a lot to look at more closely when it comes to Bucha.
What I would highlight is that Bucha’s civilian infrastructure is intact. You cannot say this for the targets of US empire that have been bombed, historically. There is a qualitative difference in what is destroyed. It strains the heart to see what happens when the alleged “Good Guys” enter a country. The mass death. The dead children. The infants. Death of malnutrition because there is little food. Death from preventable disease because there is no clean water. The children must drink from puddles. The parents gathering water from the least dangerous-seeming source, knowing it is not safe, but having no other option. This is daily life when you are targeted for death by NATO countries. A child dies every minute in Yemen. Every minute. A Western-backed blockade prevents the import of food. The friends of US Empire, the Saudis, waged a war against Yemen, with full and necessary US logistics and intelligence support. The people there suffer under maximum pressure by Western and Western-aligned powers. And they still persist, struggling, finding the means to have solidarity with the people of Gaza.
This is not the situation Ukrainians face. They live under far less depraved pressure. While war is horrific, there are degrees. There are depths to which some sink and others do not.
It is best to oppose the escalation of affairs to make such conditions more likely, or even inevitable, for the people of Ukraine.
This is how I know you’re a troll:
My point is that Russia has been and is entirely capable of waging that same kind of brutal, truly monstrous Western military campaign. They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons
The Russians have been conducting absolutely horrifying crimes against humanity since the start of the war and, in fact, at least since World War 2. There is so much rape and torture embedded in the way that the Russian military operates that killing civilians, which is unconscionable and horrifying, is the least of their crimes.
The Russians could leave Ukraine today and the war would be over. Full stop. There is no justification for anything else.
This is how I know you’re a troll:
A troll is someone that uses bad faith to get a reaction.
Unfortunately, I am actually pretty honest and don’t do such things. At most, I am dismissive towards people who do a lot of invention to justify having bad opinions. I am not thinking of you when I refer to bad opinions or invention. I think you are simply mistaken. You have adopted patterns of thought that have led you astray, they are not good heuristics for discovering accurate conclusions. I don’t blame you for this. It happens to me, too.
The Russians have been conducting absolutely horrifying crimes against humanity since the start of the war and, in fact, at least since World War 2.
War is full of horror. I suppose I would call all of it crimes against humanity, though that does not actually have a shared definition. The act of declaring war, of being an explicit aggressor, is to enjoin those horrors, to accept them as a consequence. I’m not in the business of forgiving that except in some few circumstances, circumstances that do not apply to Russia in 2022. Though it doesn’t really matter what I forgive, in the grander scheme, I hope it conveys an accurate sentiment that dissuades you from false assumptions about my position.
I’m not sure what you mean I referencing World War 2. The USSR has been on the better side of matters, on average, including WW2 and beyond.
There is so much rape and torture embedded in the way that the Russian military operates that killing civilians, which is unconscionable and horrifying, is the least of their crimes.
Ukraine is notable in its indiscriminate use of mutilation and torture, in fact. They are the party known for the excision of penises of prisoners of war early on, to much fanfare from the fascist sympathizers among them. While there are, of course, unforgivable horrors committed by Russian troops and Ukrainian, the normalization of cruelty towards Russians, that it is out of hand, is notable.
With that said, these are violences visited on soldiers. What I am referring to is the cold, systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure. The transformayof civilian life into desperate subsistence and egress and death of elders and children. This is the norm for Western military action and its absence in the Russian aggression is obvious. Gold help Ukrainians if the West’s sociopathic maximum pressure campaign leads to the adoption of this strategy.
The Russians could leave Ukraine today and the war would be over. Full stop. There is no justification for anything else.
This is entirely valid reasoning if one takes a myopic view that begins in 2022 and relies on what seems fair rather than what reflects the geopolitical realities of what gas happened between Ukraine and Russia for the past two decades. I know this comes across as dismissive. It I think that is the root cause of your incorrect perspective. It’s not your fault for having this perspective. We are all creatures of the information we consume and the narratives spun by the powers that be.
If you would like to engender more accurate ideas, I encourage you to begin earlier than 2022 in your historical review and to take a media critical approach to your reading.
Russian position says that foreign interference from the US contributed to Euromaidan (not respecting sovereignty and independence), thus, the Budapest Memorandum is null and void.
This is undoubtedly true, by the way. Even if the US wasn’t the one responsible for starting Euromaidan, US support helped make Euromaidan successful.
Whether that justifies a war with hundreds of thousands out of commission? Well, no, but citing the Budapest Memorandum is a fucking joke.
This memorandum would be just at much of a joke, I’m for Russia will write or argue in such a way to make whatever they agree to void when they invade again. Russia is really good at changing the definitions of things when it suits them.
Enemy combatant, terrorism, terrorist, rules-based order, rogue state, authoritarian, corruption, freedom, peace, defense… The USA has been redefining things to suit their globe-dominating military adventures for a long time .
Russian position says that foreign interference from the US contributed to Euromaidan (not respecting sovereignty and independence), thus, the Budapest Memorandum is null and void.
Nah, this was just a reconned excuse. Russia invaded Crimea just a week after the 2014 revolution. The moment a hostile government was in Kyiv, Russia was intent on ripping up the Budapest Memorandum.
Do you think revolutions go from 0 to 100 in a day?
The US violated the first 2 points of the Budapest memorandum and Russia is supposed to be the untrustworthy one here? You nazi supporters really are clowns.
Slava Rossiya!
The US violated the first 2 points of the Budapest memorandum
What points were these?
- The United States of America, the Russian Fed- eration, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE [Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe] Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
- The United States of America, the Russian Fed- eration, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial in- tegrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nation
The US violated this when it couped the Ukranian government in 2013-2014 via the Euromaidan movement. Between violating Ukraine’s sovereignty by overthrowing her government and siccing snipers on innocent civilians in a false flag attack, the US is the aggressor.
Found the lemmygrad tankie!
a great way to say your mental development stopped at age 12
“regenerated their forces”? The Russian military is larger than it was when they started the SMO and their shell production is higher than the entire West combined. You’re inventing narratives without basis.
Larger… And significantly less experienced.
Which is what happens when you throw your special forces into the meat grinder, to the point that they’ve set up a schismatic faction in Kharkiv and are doing nothing more than attempting to weather out the rest of the war unmolested.
And the western production lines are finally starting to ramp up. Russia stands 0 chance against a fully mobilized western military industrial complex.
And every day Ukraine holds out is another day that Europe gears up.
Putin’s only hope is Trump.
significantly less experienced
Lmao, what experience do western troops have? Fighting poorly equipped insurgents, women and children?
And every day Ukraine holds out is another day that Europe gears up.
Comedic gold. Europe is facing massive de-industrialisation with severe contractions in manufacturing output and sluggish fundamentals. Of all the g7 countries, russia faced the highest gdp growth in recent years.
Less experienced than it was at the start of the war you twit.
If you lose 95% of your skilled veterans and all you have is green recruits your experience level goes down. Larger and greener.
Given that the Russians have been fighting this war for 2 years now, their military is sufficiently experienced. Fighting in wars is what makes conscripts into veterans in the first place. Given that NATO troops lack any experience fighting harsh land wars, and the Ukrainians facing severe manpower issues, the Russian military is in a much better shape than its enemies. Russia also outproduces the west in artillery by many times. In simple terms, Ukraine is not going to win this war, short of a black swan event.
If you lose 95% of your skilled veterans and all you have is green recruits your experience level goes down. Larger and greener.
Yeah, Russia has lost of 95% of its skilled soldiers, just like how they don’t have rifles, running water, and their tanks are made of paper mache, right? Pure copium analysis. If the state of the Russian military and economy is really so shit, it is even more humiliating for the collective west that they are being massively outproduced. The US spends more on its military than the next few powers combined and still can’t beat Yemen or Russia.
deleted by creator
If you lose 95% of your experienced veterans, then your military is shrinking far faster than you can replenish it. You’re imagining things in order to make the world for your required fantasy instead of dealing with reality.
Plus Russia doesn’t even control all of the regions they’ve annexed. This is asking Ukraine to give up more territory than Russia has occupied and agree to never join NATO for noting in return.
Would you rather Kyviv be flattened? The side that has lost a war doesn’t usually get to dictate terms.
Slink back under your rock you fascist loving freak.
of course it’s an lemmy.ml account
First of all that’s not a argument, and second of all you’re on lemmy.ml Braniac.
Who lost though?
The Ukraine lost. It’s joever.
Now they’re going to concede even more of the territories they were carrying out their Nazi ethnic cleansing on.
I mean looking at Russia death count, economy, status, and making NATO stronger. I say Russia has.
And you pro-dictatorship ruzzian propagandists don’t get to dictate who won the war that is still in progress.
Fuck Putin.
You’re right, only the pro-genocidal white supremacist West gets to decide that Ukraine should still fight after losing 3 entire militaries, sacrificing most of their military aged citizens, and having their production decimated by a vastly superior military. Only the West gets to decide that Nazis should be funded, armed, and trained openly.
And you pro-genocide Amerikkkan propagandists don’t get to dictate to Ukraine to fight to the last Ukrainian for American interests.
so brave
So stupid to support a dictator
So you admit being stupid for supporting a dictator who banned opposition parties, shut down free media, and cancelled elections?
Putin that applies to, not Zelenskyy.
Ah things that happened in Ukraine apply to Russia. That’s some impressive galaxy brain logic you’ve got going.
Yeah so why should Russia dictate the terms?
Because Russia won the war.
Really? Seems to me like they were trying to capture kiev and depose the government and quickly set up one friendly to them. You think that’s happened?
One has to be gullible beyond belief to believe in the premise that Russia was trying to capture Kiev with 100k troops. In fact, we now have admissions from Ukrainians themselves that Russian aim was to get Ukraine to accept negotiations in Istanbul. This was almost achieved, but the west sabotaged them and here we are now. The terms Ukraine would have received at the time were immeasurably better than anything it can possibly hope for today.
It makes no sense as a diversion. Way too much effort for that. They thought they’d face little resistance, similar to Crimea.
Here’s a game theory analysis on the causes of the war. https://youtu.be/pBwT-5z9R5A
Of course Russia’s aims were to get Ukraine to accept their terms in Istanbul, namely that they get to keep what they’ve stolen. Fundamentally the same offer in the headline here.
It makes perfect sense as a diversion, and plenty of military experts explained how this diversion pinned large parts of Ukrainian army in the west while Russia secured positions in the east.
Here’s a game theory analysis on the causes of the war. https://youtu.be/pBwT-5z9R5A
The fact that you get your ideas about the war from these sorts of youtube channels as opposed to people with actual military experience explains why you believe in nonsensical things.
Of course Russia’s aims were to get Ukraine to accept their terms in Istanbul, namely that they get to keep what they’ve stolen. Fundamentally the same offer in the headline here.
The offer in Istanbul was completely different. It required Ukraine to implement Minsk agreements which both Ukraine and the west claimed to support, and to stay neutral. Now, Ukraine is losing large parts of its territory, and the deal will only get worse. At least learn a bit about the subject you’re attempting to opine on.
Apparently at least 134 lemmy users who claim to support Ukraine seem to think that yes, Ukraine should be flattened rather than have peace. With friends like these, who needs enemies? But then it’s pretty clear that most of them don’t actually care about Ukrainian people, since it’s fine with them that Ukrainians who want nothing to do with it are being conscripted and forced to fight against their will and die so long as that mean old Putler doesn’t get his way!
Get fucked tankie.
The end of a war on their territory is what UA would get in return.
UA is already screwed under any realistic outcome. Even unrealistically, even if they somehow retained the Donbas region against all trends, they have now mortgaged their assets to Western interests and must pay back huge loans that were called “aid” in the Western press. The most impoverished country in Europe will be stripped for parts and exploited to work on land and factories and offices that are owned by foreign interests.
There is not going to be a fair or good outcome for Ukrainian people. They are the victims of larger and deeper forces than the mere terms of some peace deal proposal. The sooner the war ends, the better.
This isn’t a serious proposal and it’s not even really meant for Ukraine to even consider. It’s meant for Ukraine’s Western allies who will start getting bored and antsy and may start applying pressure on Ukraine to look for a deal. Putin knows he just needs to outlast fickle Western governments, or wait until Russian-backed right-wing governments get into power, then Ukraine will lose its support and likely crumble.
Case in point - all the tankie fucks all over the thread.
Putin is so transparent. Let us keep what we have stolen and don’t enter into any type of agreement for mutual defense and we will stop shooting until we get our forces built back up.
It absolutely sucks that Ukraine was invaded. But this is what happens with war. The alternative is to continue dying, as they really don’t stand a chance with the Milk toast support from the west.
I hope they have a reasonable counter offer so that the innocent civilians can stop suffering, or they accept defeat.
I mean, Ukraine is losing. What kind of deal do you think they can negotiate?
And what possible way has Ukraine lost this war?
Russia’s goal was to topple Ukrainian government and see his complete control over the entire country in 3 days.
Here we are, 3 years into the war and Russia has lost something like 14,000 vehicles, over half a million casualties, and what have they achieved exactly?
Besides turtle tank technology of course.
They are literally losing territory. They even lost Avdiivka earlier this year, one their biggest fortresses. Are you seriously arguing that they are somehow winning?
These folks would be like “here is how Hitler can still win” in 1945
Why do you believe Russia thought it would control all of UA in 3 days? That doesn’t match their actual military strategy, their stated goals, or their diplomatic behavior.
Instead, all signs point to Russia looking to force an early diplomatic agreement that secured the Donbas, with the Kiev push acting as both a way to split UA’s resources and place pressure for agreement.
This also roughly lines up with the Western intervention to prevent a diplomatic agreement within days of the invasion.
ITT: Russian trolls, recognizable by the fact that they call the Ukrainian people or government ‘Nazis’.
Ukraine must keep their non nuclear status according to him. 🤣
I think the conditions for Russia should be withdrawal from anything post 2014 and they should have to decommission their nuclear arsenal.
Putin ready to negotiate! 🤦😂
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
The ukranians do not wish to fight this war. They have to be forced. The men are not allowed to leave, the average age in the army is 43 and the army has to forcibly conscript people to force them to the front 1 2 3 going so far as to raid high school gymsIt is clear the average ukrainian does not wish to fight. If you believe this war must continue, why do you not volunteer? Surely you are not that much of a coward that you find it acceptable people should be forced to be thrown into a meatgrinder?
In my opinion this,
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
Is a pretty lazy argument. Most people have no interest in shedding blood, nor are they Ukrainian or Russian.
I think explaining western encroachment and that a lot of the modern militant Ukrainians are ideological descendants of Bandera and full-on fascists is the better way to go.
Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn’t create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I’ve used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I’ve asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I’ve gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I’d like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves.
The question as I’ve posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I’ve presented a solid case for both, but it’s still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.Yeah I definitely get where you’re coming from
Fuck off hexbear. You are talking in bad faith. You want russia to win because you love dictatorships.
Oh look, a nazi. Scram!
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave? Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
The point is that many people caught up in the propaganda seem perfectly happy to let an infinite number of Ukrainians die for their project. It’s apparently very important to fight Russia with life and life (Ukrainian), but not so important that they’d take any risk themselves whatsoever. It speaks to both the dehumanization of the Ukrainian people, of treating them like fictional heroes rather than conscripts pushed around by larger forces, as well as the implicit sociopathy of the armchair warhawk. The hope, of course, is that the inconsistency prompts someone to actually question their own inconsistencies, as most people don’t think of themselves as warhawks or several times more human than a Ukrainian.
Though there are some other incorrect lines of thought in your comment.
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave?
That is not a human on this Lemmy server who can think and respond to the point. And even if you were in the room with some powerful person with the capacity to personally impact the outcome, your request would mean nothing because that’s not how geopolitics work.
These are not comparable things. Instead, this rhetoric is a thought-terminating cliche intended to recenter The Bad Guy ™ rather than address the point made.
Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
Who is talking to countries? We are people talking to one another.
Thanks for addressing a lot of things I let slide for the sake of a good discussion, and thanks for doing it far more succinctly than I could’ve.
Glad I could be helpful!
You are very happy to let Ukrainians ve slaughtered by Putin. Everyone can see whaz instance you are on. Stop acting like you care about Ukraine. Your whole instance is full of licking Putins ass. Giving the genocidal dictator a part of the country with the people he all wants to murder is the worst outcome.
You are very happy to let Ukrainians ve slaughtered by Putin.
Please don’t invent positions on my behalf. I would prefer Ukrainians to live, thanks. My position prioritizes the common people of Ukraine over the interests of larger powers.
Everyone can see whaz instance you are on.
And?
Stop acting like you care about Ukraine. Your whole instance is full of licking Putins ass.
You are inventing fantasies rather than address the realities of what I’m saying. Please return to a real world discourse.
Giving the genocidal dictator a part of the country with the people he all wants to murder is the worst outcome.
Puting is just the head of a faction. It’s best not to focus too much on him, as you will risk falling for the false understanding that is Great Man Theory. If Putin died tomorrow, Russian policy would be very similar to what it is today, same as if Biden or Zelensky died. These are people whose power and actions depend on larger systems, not just personal whims.
That said I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Which people do you think Putin wants to murder? The people of the Donbas?
Okay, I told the Russian Federation to leave and they said no. Now what?
I’m not arguing for anything. I’m asking a question and that question isn’t wether or not it is morally right for Russia to invade Ukraine. I am asking you: Since the ukrainian people do not wish to continue this war, but you think they should, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Ukraine should not accept this peace deal, if you think the war should continue, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Russia is so horrendous that Ukraine cannot accept peace, why are you not volunteering?
And my question is why are you putting everything on the people who were invaded and not the aggressor? Are the Russian people not also being senselessly killed in a war started by their government?
Weasel, you’re evading the question. My answer: Russia has presented a peace deal. Now answer my question you coward.
You’re calling someone else a weasel while calling this “offer” a peace deal? Look in the mirror.
Also not an answer, try again.
I said what I said, you’re not in charge of shit here. Nobody needs to answer your stupid question first in order to speak their mind. How about you start by acknowledging that Russia is the fascist aggressor in this war, could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory, and admitting that they’re simply the bad guys in this war? Can you say that?
It is literally a peace deal and you’re not answering because you know being honest about what you feel should be done here would reveal you to be the Internet Douglas Haig we all know you are.
I’m a capybara, king of the rats, thank you very much. The question is why won’t you condemn the aggressor and stop putting the onus of peace on the people who are being murdered by an aggressor?
The question is why won’t you condemn the aggressor and stop putting the onus of peace on the people who are being murdered by an aggressor?
The people being murdered… Oh, you mean the Russian-speaking population of Eastern Ukraine? The ones who the openly fascist banderite government (that coupe’d the democratically elected government in 2014) were trying to ethnically cleanse when Russia stepped in and prevented it? Yes, I do support those people of Donbas, and seeing as they support Russia, you should too if you care about innocent people getting murdered. Similarly, I condemn the aggressors, the aforementioned banderite Ukrainian fascists and their NATO backers.
I’m not the person you were asking, but yes, I also support the people of Western Ukraine, the vast majority of whom do not want to fight in this war but are being press ganged, literally kidnapped off the street by the Ukrainian government and shipped off to be cannon fodder and die on the front line. I fully support them and advocate for the immediate end of this war so that no more of them will die needlessly in this senseless meat grinder that NATO and the Ukrainian government insist on perpetuating despite their inevitable loss. If you care about human life and if you care about justice, then you would completely support Ukraine immediately accepting this peace offer. If you think human life is cheap (especially if it’s foreign to you) and that Ukrainian working class people are expendable and should go ahead and die for the sake of lines on a map that favor western countries, then yeah, that would be in line with cheerleading for the Ukrainian government and opposing the offer of peace.
Replying to a question with an unrelated question is rude and derails the conversation. Fucking answer them directly you fucking coward.
Thrice you have been asked a simple question, thrice you have attempted to evade an answer. You’re pathetic.
Or is it that you cannot read what I have written? It would seem so, your question is a repetition, not acknowledging the answer it has received.
It is clear that you are psychotic, lusting for ukrainian blood. You wish for them to die in a meat grinder they do not wish to enter. A meat grinder of a war against an opponent who has offered a peace deal. You seem to think they should not accept this deal, so why don’t you go fight? The ukrainian people obviously do not wish to fight, they no longer see a reason to continue this war, since they must be forced to fight. Yet you think they should continue, so go support them the best way you can: with your body. But you won’t, and you won’t answer why, for the answer would require you to admit a deeper rot in your soul. Shame on you and shame on you for attempting to utilize these sad attempts at debatelord parlor tricks. I asked my question in good faith, I was genuinely qurious, yet from the moment you responded you have done naught but ignore this simple question.
Also you’re really bad at doing what you’re trying to do, it’s incredibly obvious how much a shitty little turd you’re being
Anyway, the coughing will begin in three days.
I’ve read all you’ve had to say, and you are by far the pathetic one in this conversation. Your entire moronic schtick should lead to a “I am very smart” meme.
I think it’s very clear who is the psychotic one here. Thank you for the conversation, Prime Minister Chamberlain.
“You oppose Russia yet you don’t want to go fight them yourself, why?” is a ridiculous question that you’re pretending is a rational one. You’re intellectually dishonest af here, and you say you’re “not arguing” simply because you’re putting your absolute bullshit in the form of a question.
Once again not an answer, but I see the issue, you’re illiterate! It seems like you have found other words than the ones I’d written. The question was “Since you think the war in Ukraine is so important that it should continue despite the fact that ukrainians themselves do not want to continue fighting, why are you not volunteering for the war?”
I don’t care that you want an answer to your absolutely moronic question. You’re transparently trying to stay in control of the discussion by refusing any engagement unless it’s answering your question…and I’m telling you that you’re a dumbass and refusing to engage such a dishonest question. It’s hilarious that you’re trying to pretend you’re the smart one here though as I’m very easily seeing right through your bullshit.
Initially I asked a question and you decided to engage by not answering the question, you’re now offended that I want you to answer the question. If you had no intention of ever answering the question, why engage at all? You call it bullshit, but of us two I am the only to have played with open cards, I have been honest and forthright with my intention from the get go. I have even answered your questions! Yet you somehow feel that I have deceived you. Are you really so simple as to be able to feel deceived by a person who outright tells you what it is they want?
I’ll explain now why it’s such a dishonest question. It’s a false equivalence that sets the bar for agreeing with an opinion at being willing to die for it yourself. That is incorrect, logically speaking. The bar for agreeing with this opinion would be whether or not I’d be willing to fight and die for MY country if it was being invaded by Russians. That’s the core dishonesty of your question, that if I support their cause, I should be willing to fight and die for it myself.
I also wouldn’t personally say that every last able-bodied man should fight. Say we have a Ukrainian man whose brother was killed, his brother’s wife is disabled, and she has 6 kids. I would have nothing to say about what that individual man should do, and if he chose to help his sister in law get her orphaned children out of Ukraine, away from the war, and take care of them, that’s his honorable choice. That brings us to the second dishonest part of your question, it sets the implied bar at a point where if one supports a country that continues fighting for its freedom against a violent aggressor, that we must naturally support the notion that every individual in that country should fight as well. It’s taking a macro level question and trying to apply it to every individual; attempting to turn a nuanced opinion into a black and white one by disregarding the contextual realities at the individual level.
Your dishonesty is embedded in the question.
Hasn’t anyone ever gone to a flea market? When you start a negotiation you don’t say the “fair” price. You start way below the price you are willing to pay and the seller starts way higher than the “fair” price. But the point is starting the negotiation and reaching a middle point that satisfies both parties enough to have a deal signed.
There is no middle point that satisfies both parties. Russia wants territory. That is unacceptable. Russia needs to leave Ukraine but it will not without getting territories. This is why Ukraine needs to be strong enough to push Russia back by force.
What is the perspective? In ten years at the latest, the same thing would happen again and Ukraine would cease to exist.
