Sounds like we’re in agreement that Russia broke the ceasefire by invading.

Not really, no. A ceasefire becomes void when on of those who agreed to it starts, you know, firing.

It doesn’t matter whether Germany was forbidden from “assisting” Ukraine, the point is that it is openly known that the West had no intention of honoring the agreements and used them only as a ploy. If you want to cynically claim ‘that’s just shrewd military tactics, it’s Russia’s own fault for believing NATO/Ukraine’s coup regime promises, ceasefires don’t mean shit, lol!’ then fine, but you can’t then hold the position that Russia are the ones who can’t be trusted with agreements or that they are the ones who broke the agreements.

There was nothing in the Minsk agreement that said Ukraine couldn’t defend itself from future invasions.

There was plenty in there about not continuing to shell Donetsk, which of course they did, frequently killing civilians.

Surely, if Russia is indeed so benevolent,

Who is calling Russia “benevolent”? In fact I specifically said that Russia is probably only making the offer because they know it won’t be accepted.

Ukraine wouldn’t need them going forward in this hypothetical peace?

Why wouldn’t they? I’m genuinely not sure why anyone would think such a thing. Like do you think that just because they tentatively accept this peace offer they will suddenly be fully propped up economically by Russia after having completely handed over their public assets to NATO countries, largely in exchange for the weapons that have allowed them to put up the resistance that they did against Russia? Do you think that countries exist in their own vacuum and there wouldn’t be massive repercussions (read: severe consequences) for breaking with the western countries they have relied on since 2014 and outright depended on since 2022? And that’s Ukraine as a whole irrespective of who is currently running it…

Most of that becomes secondary when you consider that the current government Ukraine (the ‘regime,’ if you will), the people who make it up, have an interest in maintaining their own positions, as is true for literally anyone holding a position of power. Above reasons aside, that current leadership of Ukraine would not remain the leadership long without NATO regardless of whether or not they accepted this offer if they didn’t have NATO backing. Said government and NATO are inextricably tied, said government only exists because of NATO. So I doubt that government wants to accept the peace offer either and isn’t necessarily in their best interests even if it absolutely is in the best interests of the Ukrainian people, especially the ones being forcibly conscripted to go die on the front in a war they don’t want to even be involved in.

This is very acceptable to anyone rational. Russia can (and probably will) end up taking a lot more. Putin is not serious about this proposal only because he know the fascists in control of Ukraine’s military won’t accept it or any other peace offerings until every last Ukrainian other than themselves has been forcibly conscripted and killed.

After Ukraine and their NATO backers blatantly violated peace treaties, Russia entered an already ongoing civil war where Ukraine was illegally and violently trying to ethnically cleanse a minority population within their own borders, killing men, women, and children while doing so, and they did it in front of all of us. Those are the facts, and you can confirm it with any independent news source.

Russia doesn’t have a long list of breaking peace agreements or invading sovereign countries. On the other hand, NATO, particularly the US, have a disgustingly long list of violently invading countries under paper thin pretexts and lies. It’s not Russia whose word isn’t worth jack shit.

I suppose easily verifiable reality probably would seem like a “weird angle” when you’re not used to ever seeing it.

lol gottem.

I have to admit, it is amusing to watch bootlickers fail to keep up with The Narrative. It’s understandable when they’re only a couple talking points behind, because it must be hard for anyone to keep up with all that shifting bullcrap. But often enough I’ll still see lines trotted out like “Russians are fighting with shovels and are amazed to see paved roads.” It’s very rare but every now and then it’s still possible to come across someone who brings up the Ghost of Kiev and still believes it.

Apparently at least 134 lemmy users who claim to support Ukraine seem to think that yes, Ukraine should be flattened rather than have peace. With friends like these, who needs enemies? But then it’s pretty clear that most of them don’t actually care about Ukrainian people, since it’s fine with them that Ukrainians who want nothing to do with it are being conscripted and forced to fight against their will and die so long as that mean old Putler doesn’t get his way!

They can’t show you. Because he never said that and Russia never expected that. These geniuses don’t understand the concept of attrition and apparently think Putin doesn’t either. But that won’t stop them from just making shit up that sounds nice to them, especially if it helps them cope with the reality that their team Ukraine is losing bad and has no chance of ever getting back the territories it was so fond of shelling even before Russia got there.

I knew this already of course, but reading through this thread has been a great reminder that NATO bootlickers will just make up whatever shit they want that fits the narrative that they like to believe, and they will just run with it. Even when the exact opposite is true and they are obviously 100% projecting, like saying it was Russia that broke agreements that literally anyone can check to see that NATO country leaders admitted to breaking. It’s so wild to me how much these lemitors will screech about Russian propaganda but then turn around and happily drink deep from the US state department propaganda water fountain… and then ask for a firehose instead.

ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded

You are right in that they have nowhere to go but it’s because NATO won’t let them accept peace but will force them to keep fighting until that last working class Ukrainian is dead. Russia is literally offering them a way out of more bloodshed right now, literally the topic of this post. They also could have avoided all of this by simply honoring the Minsk Agreements, but it was Ukraine breaking those agreements (including by shelling their own people in the east) that led to Russia “invading” by entering a conflict that had already been initiated by Ukraine trying to ethnically cleanse the east. It’s funny you start by saying that Russia is untrustworthy, but Ukraine and NATO are the ones who very explicitly and admittedly broke their agreements.

So is this what someone told you and you believed it, or are you just straight making shit up?

Merkel (and others, but most famously Merkel) openly boasted about how the Minsk Agreements were designed to buy more time to arm Ukraine for the conflict they were intentionally and actively trying to provoke, and weren’t ever serious attempts at peace. What Russia did wrong in that case was to be apparently stupid enough to believe Ukraine and the western backers would honor the Minsk Agreements. Russia rolling into Ukraine was a result of the breaking of Minsk.

Ukraine has no hope of winning at this point. It is stupid not to accept the peace offer because they will never get a better deal. But NATO wouldn’t let them accept it even if the Ukrainian regime wanted to. That’s probably why Russia is even making the offer.