Comments under a temporary lock as resolve reports. They’ll be open again soon. Reports resolved and comments reopened
Used to be, when you’d search “man meme” on Google Images, you’d get a note saying memes about groups of people may be offensive. It doesn’t anymore, but that’s not a double standard thing because it also doesn’t if you search “woman meme.” Still does if you search races.
Stop hurting yourself with this extremely stupid approach to the world
Is there even a hotline for male victims? Is the National hotline for men too? If it is, then the problem is probably with Google.
As someone with life experience on both sides of this issue…
Seriously, this meme is bullshit. Yes, it is a fact that men are also on the receiving end of domestic abuse.
Statistically speaking, however, women get the lion’s share of receiving it, while men are culturally groomed to be emotionally closed off. (At least here in the states)
Google is taking these statistics into account when returning search results in an attempt to get the most relevant information to the user.
Is that Google’s problem or a larger cultural issue?
Does absolute equality in Google search results push the needle toward change?
Does posting a meme that highlights a “problem” lacking context (or purported purpose, as stated by OP in another comment) affect change in the way the issue is understood, or does it just serve to generate emotion and engagement?
If you (meaning anyone) genuinely want to affect change on this issue, you need to educate yourself on what’s actually happening. Talk to your family and friends about it and lessen its impact on future generations.
Shit doesn’t just change. We make it change.
Streisand effect go!
I have to remember this the next time someone asks what doesn’t work as well on Lemmy as it does on Reddit.
This isn’t a shit post. This manosphere division shit doesn’t create awareness, it just prolongs the problem.
I am literally advocating for men…
How am I trying to censor the issue when I specifically called out the need to educate and communicate about the underlying societal causes?
Look at the division here. Is this type of communication helpful to the issue?
Many changes start with people posting about it, like it is very likely if this blew up Google would modify the search term to include the help line for both, so I disagree that it is bullshit in that regard regardless of OP’s intent
That’s fair.
If it didn’t make Google do something the other 473664 times it was posted on reddit, a Lemmy post isn’t gonna do it
The biggest problem with statistics is it doesn’t illustrate the full picture - most men in that position don’t even realise they’re being abused, or refuse to come out and acknowledge it.
Those men don’t end up as apart of the statistic. So the statistic is more a indicator as to which gender is more likely to report their abuser, than which gender Is actually a victim.
No statistic is going to be accurate, because it generally relies on the data being available, when often not all of it is.
It’s a fair point. Also women abusing tends to be more mental/emotional. Not that men don’t emotionally abuse their spouses, but it’s far more often to be physical, and thus harder to hide.
Also men, at least in America, are conditioned from a young age to “man up” and deal. We don’t have mental health issues. Not until we bottle it up for years and it gets to the point that we can’t hide our constant panic attacks any more. That, itself, probably comes from generations of being the sole provider. It’s a lot of stress. Our dads did it, why can’t we? Because it’s fucking hard, and you won’t get them to honestly admit it. At least the younger generations finally are (even if the earlier ones had it quite a bit easier).
Thanks for minimizing the abuse I went through. Fuck you. Maybe a big part of why men are underrepresented in abuse statistics is because we are considered the abuser by default and are expected to just suck it up and take it. Go eat a bag of dicks, apologist.
Idk what the other guy’s problem is, he needs some serious help, but the OP isn’t minimizing abuse, he’s providing reasonable explanations for this occuring. He’s not minimizing anyone’s abuse, and accusing him of such a thing is unhelpful to say the least.
Should it be this way? No, it’d be way better if men and women weren’t treated any differently and everyone was encouraged to get the help they need equally. I read his comment as saying this is a cultural issue, not a Google issue, and that it’s important that those of us who can should speak openly with other people about the problems gender inequality causes in our society in order to push our communities to treat both men and women seriously when it comes to things like abuse.
He’s not at all blaming men, or saying “men are statistically more likely to do X so they SHOULD treat it like this”, he’s saying “men are more likely to do X which is the rationalization for them treating it like this, but it’s part of a bigger problem that we need to fix”. But maybe I’m not seeing how it was a malicious comment.
Thanks for this. You summed up what I was trying to say nicely.
I didn’t minimize anything. I pointed out how googles algorithm used statistics to deliver search results and then urged people to educate themselves about the issue to start building a foundation for meaningful change.
How did this meme help the conversation?
Do you think the comments seem divisive?
Thanks for minimizing the abuse I went through. Fuck you. Maybe a big part of why men are underrepresented in abuse statistics is because we are considered the abuser by default and are expected to just suck it up and take it. Go eat a bag of dicks, apologist.
Yeah, that doesn’t sound abusive in the slightest. I cannot begin to imagine you as the abuser in any relationship, especially one lasting more than fifteen seconds. You really don’t sound like the kind of guy to need a human punching bag, no, not at all. Well done, Stegget. Well done.
Not cool, mate. Too far. disappointed face.
You’re an asshole.
I am. I’m also aware that being abused does not give anyone to right to abuse others, and that a single person can be both.
And I am also extremely aware, unfortunately, that one of the abuser’s handiest tools is DARVO.
I have no knowledge whatsoever regarding this person’s past, their involvement with an ex, or anything that happened between them.
But what I am aware of is that when this person was triggered by a mere stranger expressing an opinion, they instantly went on the attack with namecalling, profanity directed specifically at the person expressing an opinion, and an aggression that was uncalled for by the fact that someone expressed an opinion that differed from what they maintain is their experience.
He started with an objectively false accusation, and twisted it to be personalized against himself:
Thanks for minimizing the abuse I went through. Fuck you.
Then he took his frustration with the ENTIRETY of society and hurled it back at this person.
Maybe a big part of why men are underrepresented in abuse statistics is because we are considered the abuser by default and are expected to just suck it up and take it.
He then finished with another false accusation – “apologist” – and wrapped that up in a nice bit of verbal abuse to conclude:
Go eat a bag of dicks, apologist.
Yes, I am an asshole. But I also know how to control my anger, how not to make passing commenters the punching bags for my own dissatisfaction with life, how not to turn a ten second interaction into an outright verbal assault on others, and how to keep from calling online passersby names when I don’t agree with them.
Again, I have no knowledge of what happened between this guy and his ex, and do not claim to.
But what he did here to a passing commenter speaks for itself.
But what I am aware of is that when this person was triggered by a mere stranger expressing an opinion, they instantly went on the attack with namecalling, […]
But what he did here to a passing commenter speaks for itself.
Says the person that immediately accused the person of not being a victim but actually being the abuser, just because he is a man and was (understandibly) angry when someone said men don’t deserve as much help, since there are fewer male abuse victims
I would say that saying “go eat a bag of dicks” is not even close to as serious an accusing someone of being an domestic abuser, especially to someone who has been on the receiving end no less
Making horrible accusations against people because they expressed frustration in a comment is really shitty. Peak Reddit.
Yeah, that doesn’t sound abusive in the slightest.
You seem to be projecting…
K
This is the response I was hoping was here.
While I’m not outraged at Google, I do think they should absolutely add the help notice to the men’s one since there’s no downside to it and some people could still be helped
Imagine being told that your pain matters less because not as many people who look like you suffer from it.
Many don’t have to imagine because that’s just reality.
No one is telling you that here. I said nothing like that and Google is literally an algorithm.
If someone encouraging others to educate themselves so that fewer people have to know the pain you felt makes you feel like you matter less, and I mean this in a genuinely positive way, you might need to work on that.
Yes, but the statistics are suspect. Are we going by reports? By people who get help? By people who ask? Convictions?
There was a professor where I live about 20 or 30 years ago who was researching domestic violence. The more data she collected the more it started to appear the domestic violence against men was about as high as it was against women. When she presented her results, she lost her tenure.
This was before the internet was well established, I heard it on the radio, and I don’t remember her name. But I just looked at this page by Stastics Canada. Note this line:
In 2019, spousal violence continued to be significantly more common among women, with 4.2% of women experiencing such violence compared with 2.7% of men.
Now here’s the interesting part. If we assume the gender spilt is 50% male and 50% female, which is very close to reality, that means women are 61% of the victims of domestic violence (4.2÷(4.2+2.7)). That’s a pretty small difference in my opinion, and pretty dismissive of 39% of the victims of abuse.
Statistically speaking, however,
This way of looking at things is called collectivism. It’s the sort of philosophy that considers it okay to treat and individual according to the average experience of their group. For example, when someone points out that a woman can easily get help and a man is told to stop and consider his abuser’s needs, collectivism says “yeah but that man’s problem is smaller”.
Well, that’s the implication. That his problem is smaller than a woman’s problem would be.
It’s never actually said. Instead it’s described in terms of statistics and numbers. And these numbers describe the collective experience, not the individual experience.
OP is making a complaint from an individualist point of view: if a particular man is being abused, then that man faces significant obstacles in getting help.
Just because fewer men than women experience problem X, doesn’t mean that a man with problem X suffers less than a woman with problem X.
Dismissing the experience of the individual, or implying that it’s “bullshit” to highlight that individual experience (which is horrifying, as I know from being on one side of this issue, which is all the perspective I need to evaluate how horrible it feels and whether it’s okay).
People think the words collectivism and individualism map to:
Collectivism: considering others’ needs
or
Individualism: considering only one’s own needs
That’s not what those words mean. What they mean is:
Collectivism: Considering the needs of a group, and making ethical decisions based on group situation descriptors (such as statistics) and the implied sums of experience. Holding groups responsible, as a unit, for crimes. Recognizing groups, as a unit, for their accomplishments.
Individualism: Considering the needs of the individual, and making ethical decisions based on the individual’s situation (such as stories, relationships, health status, etc). Punishing or rewarding individuals for the actions they themselves committed.
But it’s not even a matter of policy primarily. It’s not like this policy is collectivist and that policy is individualist. Most prominently, these are lenses through which to view the world.
One of the dangers of collectivism is exactly this kind of reasoning (when collectivism is applied erroneously to individual policy or problem evaluation). Because more women experience X problem than men, we should prioritize the individual women’s problems over the individual man’s problems.
I am not accusing you of having said or implied the previous sentence
Now, collectivism isn’t bad or good. Individualism isn’t bad or good. The danger arises when one doesn’t distinguish between them. In the above italicized thought, for instance, a collective issue is used to make decisions about individual response. That’s not so good.
An example of good collectivist reasoning and ethics would be like: “After experimenting with different carbon tax rates, we have found that $65 per ton extracted results in the climate stabilizing”.
Collective problem, collective analysis (those atmospheric CO2 readings basically involve all of us), collective solution (a law, which applies to everyone in the group, i.e. all Earthers)
An example of good individualist reasoning and ethics would be like: “Mike is constantly yelled at by Susan. Almost every day, she goes off the handle and yells at him for hours. His health is suffering from this. Therefore we’re connecting Mike with a shelter and a social worker who’s going to help him learn that he’s too valuable to accept that treatment”
Collectivism, Individualism. Two lenses for looking at problems, just like physics and chemistry are two ways of looking at the world.
Excellent response and a good read.
Outstanding response and highly relevant username.
You had a very well reasoned and written response, and I disagree with virtually none of it. I just feel like posting emotionally provocative content like this hurts more than it helps, if it helps at all.
That being said I was citing statistics as a metric Google’s algorithm uses to return results. Everything you said fits into the “We need to educate ourselves” portion of my initial reply.
Holy fucking shit mate, I’m a social worker who works with people experiencing violence and fuck you highlighted the issue far better than I ever could. Thank you for giving me the tools to better explain myself when I need to.
I had more than one up vote I would give it to you just for spending the time to write out such a good response.
My siblings and I were raised by an abusive narcissist who spent most of her free time screaming at my dad, when she wasn’t emotionally abusing and neglecting us.
But of course the cultural narrative was that men are only and always abusers, and women are only and always abused - so we normalised it; our whole reality bent around the notion that she was the poor innocent beleagured victim just doing her best to survive.
We took a vast amount of damage because an interpretation where she was the abuser simply wasn’t available to us - instead of forming defenses against her, we rendered ourselves more vulnerable.
I don’t take kindly to being told to go fix women’s problems first before mine will matter.
Trust me, I grew up in a family where the women fucked us up. They still -are.- I understand it.
I’m genuinely asking, though… Where did I call for anyone to fix women’s issues?
I’ve been in exactly the same situation but I’m an only child… Sorry you had to go through that too… I hope you’re doing ok.
Yeah but if someone is searching “why is my wife/husband yelling at me,” the statistics on abuse for that sub-popularion may not be as skewed. And providing resources for men (especially men with children) doesn’t take Google that much more effort/money, and it provides a much needed service. As it stands, it is nearly impossible for an abused man (especially one with children) to seek out help using the types of services that are available for women. So if Google can help with that search a little bit, what’s the harm in showing that info? Aaand, even for someone searching about their abusive husband, the googler may be a man, and most services that are for abused women don’t have resources for men.
Key thing: I ran the search, and the second result is the abuse hotline. And the first result also references the hotline in the preamble, but goes on to provide advise geared towards a communication based relationship problem.
They’re not choosing to deny the information to men, they’re highlighting information that has in the past proven most useful to people with queries like this.
Since there are different rates of domestic violence for different groups, different queries will have different “most helpful” results. As long as that’s the case, you’ll be able to find some query that’s on the threshold.
And yet do you really think “why is my husband yelling at me” is more likely an abuse issue than a communications issue? One of the problem ms here is even accepting the different rates of abuse, why is it effectively jumping right to yelling implies abuse? I doubt that statistics would back that up.
Yelling, in this context, is abuse. Full stop. But Google “understands” abuse as physical, and considering that:
Emotional abuse can and often does escalate, and The power dynamic alone gives men an overwhelming ability to escalate to physical abuse.
In the black and white world of math, that message is more relevant to women than men.
We have got to stop treating faceless corporations and their algorithms as people. They are not people. We have to treat google like an unemotional robot, because at the end of the day that’s exactly what it is.
Look at the divisiveness here… This is rage, not progress.
I think you’re absolutely right on all accounts, and the faster we educate ourselves about these issues the faster we can put enough societal pressure on google to change.
I don’t feel like this kind of meme helps the conversation, though. You don’t even have to look past the comments to see the divisiveness it’s generated.
It’s infuriating that the imbalance exists: women are far more likely to be victims of physical violence. But I don’t think that is what is meant here…
The true mildly infuriating is the comments. Whether this is rage bait or not, we should all be about to agree on some basic things:
-
Domestic violence sucks regardless of who the victim is and who the perpetrator is.
-
Helping one group of victims, like males, does not have to and should not take away from helping another group.
-
The number of victims should not be the deciding factor on whether victims deserve empathy and support.
People in here are going out of their way to defend what is clearly a biased oversight, treating women like an automatic victim and treating men like an automatic perpetrator. Why? Just acknowledge that it’s dumb, shows bias, and move on.
All I’ve got to say is that I might begin to take female domestic abuse victims with a grain of salt if I’ve any suspicion they would treat male victims similarly. Because to many victims, it is obvious that it can happen to anyone and be perpetrated by anyone, regardless of gender of either. But if they say men can’t be abused, that just tells me that they have never experienced abuse and removes any credibility from anything they could possibly say about the subject.
This isn’t rage bait. There are a lot of tech workers on Lemmy and it’s likely that someone that works at Google could see this and fix the issue.
Agree with everything you said btw
Nah, it’s shown up on reddit for years on many reposts. Google just doesn’t care.
Lol
What’s funny?
That a random worker at Google would not only see this, but also make changes based on it. That kind of stuff only happens with indie devs and open source projects. Plenty of companies take things like this into consideration but workers aren’t going solo.
Google used to give their devs incredible leeway. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/the-wadsworth-constant
I’m all ears if you have a better idea
Use a different search engine?
Try the feedback buttons under the hotline & the snippet, respectively.
The big adtech company is very active and sometimes quite responsive on the egotistical billionaire’s dying communications platform.
BTW, complaints on the same site helped trigger a response RE: their language model yesterday.
Find the nearest organization or shelter offering support for male abuse victims and help out.
Also, you know, get as much of you own shit in order so that a man needs help, you have capacity to help him.
Also join a men’s group so you can practice being supportive of other men.
>not rage bait
>likely that someone that works at Google could see this
> and fix the issue.
Your statements are
Aren’t they likely to see brand mentions?
Same principle:
Would be irresponsible not to be tracking keywords ‘round the web… imagine if this discussion were “new Google Search CSAM exploit”! But I do expect some level of engagement really helps the odds of discussions being raised to a company’s attention, so you’re right it’s not a guarantee.
Can you please point me to where I should cross post it then?
“you have to have a better idea then mine in order to show that me saying something is not ragebait and is LIKELY is wrong”
No
There’s a difference between thinking that male victims of domestic abuse don’t deserve sympathy or support, and thinking that it’s okay for “useful search results” to vary according to gender.
The results are biased because the danger is biased.
It’s an unfortunate reality that information about domestic violence is more likely to be useful to a woman concerned about an angry male partner than the opposite.That doesn’t minimize the suffering of men who do need support, it’s just putting information more likely to be useful first.
The domestic abuse hotline is the second result, and the first one also affirms that everyone deserves to feel safe in their relationships, and to calm the hotline if you don’t.“My wife/husband hit me” both yield the same results, which makes sense.
It’s also more likely that you’ll get to the store and back without an automobile accident, but you still wear the seatbelt for that 1/10,000 chance. Because the one time out of 10,000 that you get in an accident, you need the seatbelt no matter how rare a situation it is.
So, do you think we should put that information at the top of every search result?
Putting it on every search result is obviously extreme. There has to be a cutoff where you think that it’s probably not helpful to show someone the information so you don’t.
As long as there’s a difference in rate of different genders being the perpetrator of domestic violence, then you’re going to have a difference in when you hit that threshold for it becoming helpful, and you’ll get things like this where “man yelling” vs “woman yelling” land on different sides of that cutoff.
We can lower the threshold, and then you’ll get it for “man seems upset” vs “woman seems upset”.
Also, the connotation of “yelling” can differ by gender. I had male classmates in high school talk about parents “yelling” at them when there was no raised voice, just a discussion of how the child had failed to meet expectations. When men say a female partner is “yelling” they often mean “nagging” or “bothering.” Conversely, when women say a male partner is “yelling” they typically mean “using a raised voice in anger.”
When men say a female partner is “yelling” they often mean “nagging” or “bothering.”
I have a 60 minute recording of my ex-partner yelling at me. The yelling session didn’t last for only 60 minutes though. It was just 60 minutes after the point I realized I should be recording it.
And yes, I know how to accurately use the word “yell”. I know what yelling is. It’s what drill sargeants do when they’re an inch from a recruit’s face in the movies. That’s what I mean when I say “yelling”.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about. One result affirms that you should feel safe and provides a hotline, the other starts with outright victim-blaming. The second result under “Maybe it’s your fault for not listening?” is not a hotline, at least for me.
My point is that if they just made the result the same then it would not detract from women, nor would it hurt the men who don’t need the advice. You’re going out of your way to defend an unnecessary bias by claiming it’s more relevant, but that’s not the point. They could choose to just not have the bias, and it would be a win while hurting no one.
My point is that it’s not an unnecessary bias, it’s different results for different queries.
Yes, I am going out of my way to say that treating an issue with a 1 in 3 incidence rate the same as one with a 1 in 10 incidence rate isn’t a necessary outcome to ensure an automated system has.
Providing relevant information is literally their reason for existence, so I’m not sure that I agree that it’s not the point. There isn’t some person auditing the results; the system sees the query and then sees what content people who make the query engage with.
I don’t see the system recognizing that a threshold of people with queries similar to one engage with domestic abuse resources and tripping a condition that gives them special highlighting, and a people with queries similar to another engaging with dysfunctional relationship resources more often is a difference that needs correction.I’m not sure what to tell you about different results. I searched logged out, incognito, and in Firefox.
There isn’t some person auditing the results
Those top bar things… are literally audited answers from Google. They’re outside the normal search results and moves the actual result completely in the UI. Someone at google literally hard coded that anything returning results relating to womens domestic violence should present that banner.
That’s not how it works. They code a confidence threshold that the relevant result will have to do with domestic violence in general. That’s why it provides the same banner when the result is more unambiguously relevant to domestic violence.
None of this is the same as a person auditing the results.
Can we just agree whatever metric they choosed is biased?
So you’re saying it’s the google algorithm trying to put stuff up that’s most often the final destination for those search terms.
That makes sense.
That aside, do you think that, if a human were to consciously decide what goes at the top for these searches, that the man should receive a little lecture on empathy while a woman should be presented with a hotline to get help?
-
True Detective season 2 might not be that great, but “the fundamental difference between the sexes is that one of them can kill the other with their bare hands” is a sentence that stuck with me.
Like it or not, one sex is, on average, in considerably more danger in a bad relationship than the other.
I’d say the de facto differences between the sexes is that one can kill their partner at the cost of sacrificing his own freedom in the process (believe it or not, straight to jail), while the other can utterly and entirely ruin the other’s life without any consequences at all, or even positive consequences like praise and recognition.
Yeah, I’d agree. Donald Trump is the perfect example, at least until recently.
Theoretically, yes, practically, no.
Like, if you got epilepsy, your muscles can cramp, and destroy your body tissue that way. That doesn’t mean it happens under any normal circumstances.
On top of that, I can’t imagine why someone would even Google something like this outside of domestic violence related reasons. Are people really expecting to find out from google why their spouse is upset with them in a typical argument?
People love a good strawperson
The to level comment here is correct that it’s more dangerous on average for a woman being abused by a man than the other way around, but you’re correct her that Google should just suggest domestic violence help for anyone.
Also these days there are quite a few men out there with husbands…
Or just men with physically strong women.
Or a woman with a knife.
Or frying pan
Or overwhelmingly favorable bias in the justice system
I doubt anyone would google this, if I was going to it would be to find online topics that are tangential. At that point all bets are off tbh, obviously the range of websites related to the search is as wide as the original example shows.
Perhaps if they’ve asked their spouse and their spouse can’t provide any coherent reason.
Even still what can you expect out of some webpage probably written by AI or an author that doesn’t even know you exist?
The one who doesn’t have an irrational temper?
Yes, it could be better. But only an incel piece of shit would be bothered by this enough to make a post about it. So fuck right off, OP. /a man without insecurities
Imagine calling the suicide hotline, and telling them you wanted to tie a noose to catch a wild goat
OK, I’m imagining it now.
What next? Like, what’s the person on the other end of the line’s name? Are they weirdly proficient at catching game with rope traps?
Fuck. I need to go to Big Lots.
I place my hopes in our machine children once they take over the world, so once someone asks google why is their husband/wife yelling at them, Google will just write: please take your defective human to the nearest organic recycle factory. No more of this biased nonsense. /S
This is kinda sad
It’s scary.
While you’re playing with Google, maybe look up the definition of a double standard. Then maybe search for the statistics on domestic violence. I’ll give you one for free:
“72% of all murder-suicides involve an intimate partner; 94% of the victims of these murder suicides are female.“
Should there be a hotline for both cases? Yes. But your approach is obnoxious when women are more likely to be victims of domestic violence.
While you’re trying to be smart, maybe THINK about what you’re saying.
“Your approach is obnoxious…” Oh, I’m sorry, so we shouldn’t offer help because it doesn’t affect a majority and it’s annoying to some?
You and everyone who upvoted you is pathetic and incapable of empathy. Shame on you and everyone who agrees.
So why isn’t domestic abuse listed at all for when it’s the woman yelling?
Statistics don’t make double standards ok.
It seems like you’re attempting to say this kind of thing is ok because “only” 25% of men are victims.
Shameful.
It’s not a double standard, it’s a recognition that a woman is far more likely to end up physically injured than a man
If you don’t want male abuse being brought up on female abuse topics, then maybe shut the fuck up about female abuse on male abuse topics.
And where exactly have I done that?
The reply of you that I replied to, towards the guy who replied to someone doing the same thing.
Physically injured? Sure. But domestic abuse against men tends to be more psychological then physical, so it’s a bit of a bad comparison. And that’s not to mention how the statistics are skewed from men not reporting their problems because it goes against common societal views.
yeah, ironically one of the factor of men being more violent is society don’t showing them, or teaching them, how to cope with emotions in a health way, and the commenter is an example of men being less heard because always someone gonna dismiss the problem, i’m a fully beliver that if men were heard more, abuses toward woman could also fall
Yikes. Seek help, please.
It’s actively blaming the man for the woman yelling.
It’s like calling someone a dumbfuck at their funeral for dying of hypothermia in the summer.
It’s treating a minority population of an issue differently. Just because a group is statistically less likely to be impacted doesn’t mean they shouldn’t receive the same resources for help.
This person just called MEN A MINORITY POPULATION
I’M FUCKING DYING 🤣
Somebody can’t read…
They are a minority in the statistics being cited here. You’re either not comprehending what the word minority means or you’re purposefully misusing it yourself.
Also just straight up a minority in general (from a US perspective), though only by a very slight margin. US population is ~51.5/48.5 in favor of women. Though on a worldwide scale men are instead a slight majority and women a slight minority.
No, he called men as a percentage of total domestic violence victims a minority pipulation. Your reading comprehension is… lacking.
You’re totally right of course.
This place is so hilariously extreme it makes Reddit takes look normal.
Please explain how they’re correct. Men are the smaller group in the statistics being cited. I didn’t think that majority and minority needed to be explained. It’s not a matter of how the groups are treated. It explains the size of their population.
So what you’re saying is there’s a minority, with fewer people to turn to, and we shouldn’t help them because there are “more pressing issues”… Please tell me you see the irony?
Wasn’t the whole point the rid the word of that exact feeling of helplessness and isolation?
His argument is the exact same argument people use to justify racism.
Except one is “most cases are like this, so let’s help them”, and the other is “most cases are like this, so let’s hurt them”
It isn’t though? The post is advocating that everyone should receive help, while the comment is trying to justify the way it currently is.
The resource is provided to the majority case where the woman is the victim. It tries to help a demographic that is statistically more in need.
Everyone should receive help, as also stated in the comment, but to fault the algorithm for not providing the resource to the minority case can be compared to asserting that “all lives matter” in a police brutality context. They do, but white people aren’t as often victimized so you can’t fault someone for focusing their support on the black community.
I’m for providing support for male victims of domestic abuse just as I’m for supporting white victims of police brutality but you shouldn’t get worked up over people prioritizing helping the demographic that needs it the most
You are mistaken that the discrepancy is the result of algorithmic bias. The latter image depicts a custom, hard-coded result that appears when one of preselected set of queries are searched. It was added as part of an anti-domestic violence drive. The trouble is, adding a copy of the selected queries with substituted gendered language (e.g., substituting “husband” with “wife”, “man” with “woman”, etc.) would have taken all of 10 minutes. It’s not surprising that most are unsympathetic to this excuse.
You did not just. Lmao.
Get some perspective.
It’s literally the 13/50 shit bro,
“Despite being half of the population, 94% of murder suicides are caused by men.”
That’s what you just said.
That statistic didn’t say anything about the perpetrator’s gender. Stop trying to create controversy where there is none.
What a toxic take. Because a smaller percentage of men are affected by violent abuse that means they shouldn’t be offered support for verbal abuse?
Because the point of those support programs is to prevent literal physical harm, which is massively correlated to physically stronger men screaming at physically smaller women and children. (In straight couples) If your husband is yelling at you frequently, the probability is reasonably high that there will be physical harm. It’s effectively a certainty that there’s a real threat of physical harm associated with the yelling.
(In straight couples), if your wife is yelling at you, the probability is close to zero that there will be physical harm. It is also unlikely that the yelling even constitutes any threat of physical harm.
Almost no man searching that term needs or benefits from resources on being abused by their wife. Almost every woman reading searching that term does need resources on being abused by their husband.
Leaving abusers is just as difficult in emotionally abusive relationships.
They just said they should.
Google can’t possibly moderate every possible question. One is just an excerpt from a relevant website just like any other question, the other which is much more likely to be relevant to a domestic abuse resulting in death got special treatment. If you had a 1:1 with whoever from Google flagged this for special treatment I’m sure they’d be happy to add your suggestion, but the answer to your question is “more impactful changes tend to get higher priority”, and acknowledging that is not “toxic”, it’s just reality.
The best, most objective, level-headed, well-put and respectul comment on the post and you’re getting downvoted.
Love this place
Well I mean it’s clear that Google thinks that women are incapable of finding help themselves and men simply don’t need the help due to their superior intelligence
Every fucking thread on Lemmy 🙄
Literally nobody is arguing this. Jesus christ half the people commenting here are either insane, pushing some agenda, or incels
Your gaslighting is obnoxious.
I dont really expect a calm discussion or response but is the issue also not a language and cultural one.
Don’t we innately - through culture - perceive and connotate “being yelled at” by femme- and masc-presenting people differently?
Hmm thats a good discussion point. I think more often than not, when a woman yells, it’s usually perceived as annoying or hysterical. Maybe taken with a rolling of eyes.
When a man yells, it’s typically seen as authoritative and important to listen to.
since we’re bringing up stats. overwhelming majority of homeless people, prisoners, war victims, work accidents, and suicide victims are men. i get that men are more prone to violence, however verbal abuse often goes underreported and many studies show women are much more likely to engage in verbal abuse. my point is, both genders have issues that all stem from the same underlying problems (capitalism, healthcare, education). the reason women are often portrayed as victims is because of our cultural and genetic history, mixed with a biased media that profits off of “damstrels in distress”
both genders have issues that all stem from the same underlying problems (capitalism, healthcare, education).
How convenient of you to leave out patriarchy, which harms everyone, but benefits most men enough for them to refuse to fight against it.
agreed to an extent but patriarchy benefits the 1% at the top moreso than the average man. i agree that we live in a hypermasculine culture that harms everyone
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And I suspect that in those reminding 6% a good fraction is still done by male (in homosexual couples)
Way to cherry pick the most extreme stat to disguise the fact that domestic abuse is far closer to a 50/50 split than you want to admit.
So those 6% of men don’t deserve support or empathy when they die? What are you saying here?
In Australia one third of DV victims are men. This is according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, from hospitalisations, murders and call outs by police. The CDC in the US found similar rates, NZ was even higher.
All you have to do is actually finish reading their comment before you rush to make a reply that makes it obvious you didn’t:
Should there be a hotline for both cases? Yes.
They called the promotion of hotlines “obnoxious” for men, so I don’t think they’re very sympathetic at all actually.
While husband abuse does happen, it is less statistically common and statistically it’s more common for males to overpower and beat females. Google search is a system based of statistics, so that’s why there is a discrepancy
We should totally give more of a voice to males who have experienced abuse and trauma, but complaining like this doesn’t help the cause imo
@candywashing “While husband abuse does happen, it is less statistically common”
Not according to the CDC’s studies, or honestly almost every other study about the issue.
Seems to have started a conversation…
Domestic violence, by count of occurrences, has been shown to be around 50/50, with a slight lean towards women instigating slightly more often.
This is not taking into account how hard the partner hits or how much damage they cause, but women do aggress on men about the same as the other way around.
Your statementade me google the statistics and reports for my country (Germany) and i found a credible source that says that up to 40% of victims of relationship-violence are men and that the numbers might be even higher as men dont talk aboit this, its a “taboo” cause men need to be tough and all.
Just sharing my source, maybe you have one too? Would be interested to read more into this.
https://www.aerzteblatt.de/archiv/186686/Haeusliche-Gewalt-gegen-Maenner-Unbeachtet-und-tabuisiert
Yep, like the suicide gap that will often come up, MRAs will talk up how men commit suicide at 5 times the rate of women, but quietly not mention the part where it’s not for lack of trying, women will more often choose less violent means that are easier to be saved from, meaning that despite actually attempting far more than men, they are rescued or are able to back out of it much more often.
On that point, women and men engage in abuse patterns differently, which is why society has had trouble recognizing women abusers and their victims. Instead of battering them or choking them, they’ll call the cops on them or pursue them with a knife or threaten their loved ones or treasured possessions or even pets.
Victims of male abusers come out often fearing for their physical safety and mistrusting other men, victims of female abusers will come out fearing for their safety but mistrusting society at large because abusive women will often make the levers of society their weapon instead of the more blunt instruments abusive men tend to use.
Awareness of the double standard is exactly how it will get fixed. No need to be defeatist.
But is it actually a double standard or a mirage? Its entirely possible for different responses to be justified given different underlying conditions.
It’s a double standard. Every study that looks at instances of domestic violence finds victims are about 50/50 in gender. Resources only really exist for women though.
Not really, gender specific resources really only exist for women, and that’s more because men being traumatized to the point of fearing the presence of women at all is much less spoken of than the reverse, especially with the more subtle way in which women tend to engage in such abuse, a lot of the times including involving the law or other authority figures in “defending them” from their “aggressive” spouse.
Female victims develop fears of an opposing gender, while male victims will develop fears of society writ large.
To that end though, there are resources available to men, just not as many gender segregated resources for them.
Of the estimated 4,970 female victims of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter in 2021, data reported by law enforcement agencies indicate that 34% were killed by an intimate partner (figure 1). By comparison, about 6% of the 17,970 males murdered that year were victims of intimate partner homicide.
It might be 50/50 but it’s not equal.
https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021
Are you saying we should not help someone out if an abusive relationship unless they’re at danger of being murdered? Because that’s what I’m getting from this.
Abuse victims deserve support, regardless if their gender or risk of physical harm.
Hmmm interesting perspective. I’ll think on my stance for a while
This place definitely isn’t reddit and this comment proves it lol
Sorry but this is exactly what really rubs my gears about this topic. Whenever there’s something like this or a man trying to post about his abuse there’s always someone, mostly women, who try to shut them up & argue about domestic abuse towards women. It’s as if that somehow excuses it, or makes it not as important when it it is being done to men.
I also want to remind you that men are much less likely to actually report, or let alone even talk about domestic abuse done to them. A lot of domestic abuse done by women, such as slapping or various verbal abuse (insults, yelling, manipulation, gaslighting etc), are also often not even seen as abusive, but rather as the norm within our society. This causes statistics to be inherently flawed.
Either way though… “Who does it the most” is not actually any sort of valid argument AGAINST proper & equal help line texts in a search engine, or equal laws, or equal societal norms & standards. You generally shouldn’t demand to be treated equal but then punch in the other direction whenever it suits you. That’s now how that works and just makes you look like a hypocrite.
The worst part is that feminists keep saying that we don’t need MRAs because feminism will make everything right. Except you know, when men has an issue, like this thread shows.
MRA groups are inherently incel infested cesspools.
Are you reading this very thread?
You’ve just proven my point.
Yeah and?
Feminists all over this thread are saying we cant focus on a problem men have
That hasn’t happened at all.
this is understandable due to women being.unable to fight back and such. a woman will get very scarred by such, a man would just get frustrated abt a woman yelling though.
Many people in abusive relationships don’t “fight back” because they’re emotionally abused as well, which seems likely relevant to someone searching for “x is yelling at me” (whatever the sex race or age).
a man would just get frustrated abt a woman yelling though
Thank you for completely disregarding the emotions of half the planet, very cool and very humanizing
If you go by traditional standards, yes. But more and more we are learning that men can be the abused too.
But regardless of being able to fight back, no side should be yelling at the other. Anybody yelling while arguing is an abuser.
Anybody yelling while arguing is an abuser.
While I agree with most of your comment, two people can get into a heated argument with yelling involved, but I wouldn’t necessarily call it abusive. Yelling of a sign of abuse, but not all yelling is abuse.
I can see where youre coming from, but the only time I’ve screamed at someone it’s because they were either abusing me or someone I cared about. Every healthy relationship I have were able to talk through problems.
Screaming should be left for fun and/or competitive situations (within limits of course)
I’m not saying people who scream at each other are in a healthy relationship either. It isn’t healthy usually. I just think we need to distinguish between abuse and unhealthy or undeveloped communication skills.
