I wonder if they’re actually dumb enough to try the false electors scheme twice in a row?
They got caught are being convicted right now for doing it in 2020, and everybody is expecting it now.
They will. And they’ll take it to the Supreme Court, where <checks notes> they’ll just install Trump as the winner of the election. Mark my words.
Humbug. I take cynicism lightly.
They didn’t get past mailing in the forged documents last time, and they have a worse chance this time.
They’d have to do something different, like state legislatures passing laws that say they don’t have to listen to appointed electors.
That’s already failed, but that’s the tack I think they’ll try to refine, since they’re approaching it so poorly right now and direct forgeries don’t work
yeah. I doubt they would do that unless there was a precedence set for a court to determine a presidential election.
There is. Bush v Gore
That was technically a procedure to allow or disallow a recount of a specific vote in a specific district in Florida. And yes, the Supreme Court will be ruling on those again.
Gore vs Bush…
I would think that failure just exposes points of improvement. They failed before, but now they know how to succeed. :(
I think that’s just distant fatalism.
It’s not like they can forge the documents better this time.
They’ll have to try completely different, like changing State legislatures to somehow ignore election results or claim that the state can use their own electors.
Most of the people who forged the documents or participated in the conspiracy the last time are going to be pretty busy in trial or testifying in trials.
Dozens of people, anyone significantly involved in the fake electors scheme is facing charges or will be facing charges soon, many of them have already pled guilty.
I hope you’re right!
Whatever the result they’re going to keep trying again. Why wouldn’t they when there are virtually no consequences? Fascists don’t give a damn about what election results say, they’re always going to try to gain power by any means necessary.
Well that’s what I mean.
There are so far very severe consequences. Lawyers have been disbarred, dozens of people have been charged, the trials are ongoing right now and more charges are occurring from more agencies. there are a whole lot of legal consequences which is why i am wondering if they’re going to do it again.
They don’t care about election results, but they do care about legal consequences.
They only care about the legal consequences that affect THEM. There’s always another idiot lawyer ready to get disbarred.
Right, that’s the nice part about legal consequences for them. They care about those legal consequences.
them? double down?! surely not.
Who is being convicted? It sounds like nobody’s been convicted yet, so they’re wiling to try it again. Also who cares if some false elector goes to jail? Not Trump. Not the dirty ratfucker.
Well, as a personal conspirator in this game, dumps is certainly liable.
He’s been indicted in Georgia. And by the doj, so dumps will have to fight those charges of conspiracy.
This is such a huge case investigated by so many agencies that everyone isn’t even charged yet 4 years later.
So the convictions will take time, but at least eight people, including chesebro and other planning-level agents, have actively been working with every investigation testify to the involvement of the others.
The trials and convictions are still ongoing, but a few trials have finished.
I only know about the ones that have pled guilty and are informing on others. But none of this is halted or not happening, it’s just that the trials and sentencing are still going on.
They are dumb enough to try a bunch of other stuff, including violence, again though.
The trials are being sandbagged by republican judges, nobody is actually getting punished for trying to steal the election. They’re gonna do it again.
Uh… If you don’t want your election stolen, you, uh, you gotta vote. Vote so hard they can’t steal it. Make your friends vote. Make your friends’ friends vote.
Because if we don’t win this year, we don’t get to have any more elections. No more voting. We’re getting rid of it because your don’t vote good.
I’m pretty sure they’ll do increasingly farcical votes for some time after.
That’s basically Texas and Florida right now
You sound like a MAGA moron. Also encouraging people not to vote, and encouraging people to not vote for Biden elsewhere in the thread. Sus.
I, uh, have voted in every election I’ve been eligible to vote in.
That’s happening more with The classified documents case, not with the fake electors.
Good news, The fake elector charges and trials are actually going through without a hitch, have a lot of defendants informing on co-defendants. Several defendants have already pled guilty, participants are being arrested, more charges are coming, there’s actually a lot going on with this case.
What about the one in DC run by Judge Chutkan that’s on indefinite hold thanks to the Supreme Court?
What about the one in Georgia that is on indefinite hold thanks to the Georgia Supreme Court?
Those seem pretty hitched to me.
As far as I’m aware, the supreme Court we’re not indefinite.
The supreme Court is a piece of s*** don’t get me wrong, but I’m pretty sure that trial is still going on.
And Trump’s lawyer admitted that “private acts of a sitting president are not entitled to immunity”.
Yeah, so that’s going well.
Georgia, that one is currently on hold, but it doesn’t negate all of the other ongoing cases against him and none of the charges are going away.
But who is the defendant in the fake electors trial? This isn’t one where Trump himself is on the docket, right?
It would be strange if he wasn’t eventually charged since he was definitely part of the plot.
This is a case that goes across eight states with dozens of defendants, some have already pled guilty, many are working with the prosecutors to provide testimony against peer and higher co-defendants.
Trump hasn’t been charged yet, but people are still getting charged for the fake electors scheme every month, and since he was on the phone with these people convincing them to forge and mail in the documents, I can’t see why he wouldn’t be charged.
It’s being investigated right now as to how to charge Trump, since he was personally involved in this scheme.
He’ll probably be one of the last people charged.
Especially now that he was already convicted once and it isn’t taboo or anything to charge him with felonies.
There are so many defendants, this was such a huge conspiracy that most of the trial still haven’t started, and several defendants haven’t been arraigned.
But it’s going forward!
No. Instead they’re gonna have state legislature throw out the results of the election. Which they can probably do, Constitutionally-speaking.
The State legislature pick the electors. Just because they all use a popular vote to do it doesn’t mean they can’t change the law in between the voting in November and the actual election in December.
Ha, I’ve answered that two or three times to other people here!
I agree that changing or interpreting the law to pick stricty conservative electors is their next strategy， but I don’t think it’s going to be as simple or successful as they imagine.
Sort of like how they didn’t realize sending in forged documents was very likely to fail.
Forged documents are illegal. Changing laws regarding how electors are selected isn’t.
Heck - way back in 2000 the Supreme Court hinted at the tactic in the majority opinion in Bush v Gore, saying that the Florida legislature probably could have just selected electors directly after the vote.
If it works then you get to convict the other side for being fake.
Sure. But there are less idiotic and more effective ways to try to seize power.
Literally forging documents and sending them in two institutions that verify documents is pretty dumb.
Resulting in legal consequences already.
You’re still assuming those bodies operate in good faith. Democrats must win the house and senate to ensure that.
Nope, I’m not assuming these bodies operate in good faith.
I’m taking what happened before into account and the outrage and legal culpability for a large scale, lazy conspiracy, and making a prediction based on that.
deleted by creator
That’s only if he gets away with probation. Due to him talking with felons all day every day and the fact that he’s publicly shown ALL of the contempt (in both the colloquial and legal sense of the word) of the court and continues to do so, that’s unlikely in spite of the kid gloves he’s being treated with.
My guess is he gets community service and I hope it involves picking up thrash while wearing an jumpsuit that matches his skin.
I hate to burst your bubble, but Trump’s not going to be picking up trash. He will either get house arrest, or community service. Community service will likely consist of recording public service announcements. This is how celebrities are typically treated.
His security is actually a valid concern for the court, which must be considered. It’s impossible to guarantee his security while picking up trash on the side of the highway - since anyone could stop and shoot. Likewise, it is impossible to guarantee his security in prison without solitary confinement.
Of course, it is possible that one day he may get to run his own prison like Pablo Escobar, but I think house arrest is more likely. He’ll love it. Sitting on his ass in Mar a Lago, doing virtual campaign events, watching the news and shitposting all day.
I can’t wait for Fox News. “PRESIDENT TRUMP is picking up trash! He has to bend down and PICK UP TRASH! He is being treated more unfairly than ANY AMERICAN has EVER BEEN TREATED in the HISTORY OF THIS COUNTRY!”
Get those mirrors out of his living spaces.
I guess I gotta appreciate that these people are so incompetent.
Same, but it’s also troubling because it suggests how easy all this underhanded shit must be for the bad actors with half a brain that know how to shut the fuck up and quietly enjoy their ill-gotten gains.
This shit is going on and yet there’s STILL people whining and suggesting no one vote.
It blows my mind.
Stone and a significant portion of those people are on the same side. A larger amount are useful idiots who prefer to moralize about what should be instead of doing the base amount to prevent more of the harm they profess to care about.
Why does trump and his cronies look all weird and creepy
Because they are.
The dark magic they dabble in has its cost.
I’m a Republican that does their own Research and even though the election hasn’t happened yet I ALREADY KNOW TRUMP LOST UNFAIRLY because of Sleepy Joe Biden being UNFAIR!
This is exactly how I feel so your comment is one hundred percent correct.
What’s the name of your face book research group?
My emotions validate my worldview!
Stodger Rone
The jailcells gonna be crowded with all the reservations these criminals are laying out
It’s been 4 years. How’s that working out so far?
Rather blandly
The Republicans get away with so much despicable action and each time the Dems get pants by the audacity of the attempt. That’s how we are here now.
The conservatives will try absolutely anything, up to and including armed insurrection. Now with AR15s, and probably with bumpstocks fitted.
Don’t think that it could never happen. The MAGA element love being underestimated.
I just wish if they try something again that we annihilate them all from above like those drone videos. Bump stocks my ass, just turn them into dust. Nothing of value will be lost.
Just be aware that our military is here to protect the constitution.
Meal team 6 ain’t about that life. Not even their Dale Gribbliest. It’s going to be a horrible mistake. Fool me once…
I guess my point is not that they’ll necessarily be successful, it’s more that a great many good people won’t go home to their families that night.
They weren’t successful last time and the Republican Congress welcomed the traitor-in-chief back to DC last week as a hero.
Are they good people if they’re taking part in an armed insurrection? What do they think will happen going against the government like that? The government will drop soap bubbles on them? I mean come on how low IQ are they now? I’ve heard we have gay bombs maybe we have straight bombs we can drop on them because they like the orange man a little too much.
I’m not calling the insurrectionists good people, I’m calling the defenders of the constitution who might catch an AR 15 round good people.
If that’s what it takes to remind these inbreds they lost for another hundred years then so be it.
So, I work in a gun store(part time), if you think bump stocks are unethical, look up(or don’t) a binary trigger. Those, as far as I know, have never been banned, and are far more effective when it comes to trying to attempt to increase fire rate.
To be honest, a lot of gun legislation is really ineffective. The amount of loopholes etc, are kinda insane. If we’re going to talk about gun legislation, it needs to be a helluva lot more than a part ban on “assault style” firearms, until then, it’s just pandering for votes imo.
(Please don’t assume I am a crazy arsenal wielding person. I actually don’t own any firearms at this moment despite my part time occupation.)
…so who is going to break the news to all the gun nuts using non-binary triggers?
I actually looked up the legalisation one time. Congress described a machine gun and gave all the definitions that were forbidden to alter it to make it automatic fire. It was pretty comprehensive, particularly given that it was written in the 80s. However this supreme court said that the magic words ‘bump stock’ wasn’t in the legalisation. Words that didn’t even exist until 2003, or thereabouts. The court ignored the legislative text completely.
And I don’t believe that you are a gun but at all. You seem perfectly reasonable and make a good point.
However this supreme court said that the magic words ‘bump stock’ wasn’t in the legalisation. Words that didn’t even exist until 2003, or thereabouts. The court ignored the legislative text completely.
This is the text of the NFA that has defined what is a machine gun since 1934:
The term “machine gun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
I’m not a fan of this SCOTUS, but the bump stock ruling was inline with decades of jurisprudence on the topic and the final opinion was fairly unsurprising as a result. It was honestly less of a gun law ruling and more of an executive regulatory procedure one.
A bump stock does not function by a single action of the trigger and does not meet the statutory definition as a result. The ATF rule banning themgot struck down because Congress hadn’t authorized the ATF to regulate machine guns beyond that specific statutory definition.
Bump stocks are no more a machine gun than a Gatling gun is under the definition that has existed for nearly a century, and the legal status of the former has been extremely clear for a very, very long time.
If the goal is to treat them as a regulated item, then Congress needs to pass legislation with language that covers them because saying it was already there is simply incorrect. There is a specificity to the language of the NFA that doesn’t cover any number of mechanisms. It’s been a deficiency of the law since 1934.
If you want to fix that, that first requires understanding exactly what needs fixing.
For a non-american, non-knowledgeable on gun person, I’ve seen the bump stock discussion a few times this week.
Why is it a discussion? What difference does a bumpstock do?
While many in the US have one or more gun, I would argue most were unaware of bump stocks until the 2017 Las Vegas Shooting. TL;DR, a bump stock uses the recoil of the rifle as a “spring” to help pull the trigger over and over again - effectively behaving like a “machine gun.” As already stated, it does not meet the US legal definition of a machine gun because you’re still firing one round per trigger pull. The bump stock basically makes the trigger pull automatic.
As for why it’s a big debate, read the wiki article. One guy killed A LOT of people pretty quickly using this device to greatly increase his rate of fire. It was a public eye opener for much of the country. So much so, that even Donald f’ing Trump came to the realization that something should be don. He didn’t even really get much push back on it from the right or the NRA. That’s how sobering the massacre was. That said, it happened long enough ago that it’s memory probably isn’t powerful enough for anyone to change the law to ban them and similar mechanisms (see: the binary trigger elsewhere in the comments). If they tried banning them today, the NRA and conservatives would fight it tooth and nail.
That excellent quote of the text you provided spells out that any modifications to a gun that allows any more than a single shot is to be prohibited. A court that is very big on textual meaning, as it purports to be, would readily agree, unless bias is in the driver’s seat.
This conservative supreme court despised regulatory agencies . For decades the US government has relied upon such agencies as subject experts and has allowed them to regulate their areas. This court just wants to reverse this common sense and established way of doing things. I might remind you that the bump stock thing wasn’t a democrat initiative, but a bipartisan Trump one.
That excellent quote of the text you provided spells out that any modifications to a gun that allows any more than a single shot is to be prohibited.
Incorrect.
It prohibits any conversion to a machine gun. The previous sentence has just defined a machine gun. The “by a single function of the trigger” language is what’s critical to this case and you’re completely ignoring it. When reading laws, you use words however they’re explicitly defined if a definition provided, not how you think they should be defined or would be used in common speech.
Like I said, Gatling guns are pretty highly analogous. They produce what most people would consider automatic fire. They’ve also consistently been ruled to not meet the definition of a machine gun going back to at least the 1950s because they don’t meet that single function of the trigger definition.
The solution is to change the text of the law.
A bump stock does not function by a single action of the trigger and does not meet the statutory definition as a result. The ATF rule banning them got struck down because Congress hadn’t authorized the ATF to regulate machine guns beyond that specific statutory definition.
They had several cases along these lines involving several agencies, and I feel like people don’t understand the underlying legal idea - rule making power belongs to Congress. Federal agencies under the executive branch that have rule making powers receive those powers by Congress delegating it to them in a limited fashion through legislation. Those powers extend only so far as the passed legislation delegates them and no further. Even in cases where it seems like it would be useful, or the name of the agency suggests it would be something in their sphere of influence.
However this supreme court said that the magic words ‘bump stock’ wasn’t in the legalisation.
A bump stock doesn’t make a gun automatic fire, therefore a prohibition on modifications to make a gun automatic fire does not include it. It’s a basic “the law says what it says, you don’t get to add things you don’t like and call them close enough” argument. It’s not about the words “bump stock”, but that the law prohibits modifications to make a gun automatic and a bump stock does not make a gun automatic, it merely makes a method for firing a semiautomatic gun faster easier to achieve.
Bump firing is basically using the recoil from a shot to bounce your finger off the trigger and then pull the trigger again, which increases the rate of fire. It’s even less accurate than automatic fire (because of the way the gun has to literally bounce around), and not quite as fast (but pretty close). You can do it without a bump stock, but it’s easier to achieve, more accurate and more comfortable to do with one. The fact that when bump firing you only fire a single round for each function of the trigger makes it not automatic by definition.
The binary triggers mentioned earlier in the thread are basically triggers that will fire both when the trigger is pulled and when it is released, which hypothetically doubles the firing rate of a semiautomatic weapon by not requiring you to release the trigger and pull it again to fire another round. Binary triggers basically come down to an argument of what counts as an “function of the trigger” and whether both pulling and releasing the trigger can count as separate functions of the trigger - if they can then it’s not automatic, if they cannot then it is.
So much twaddle and dancing around definitions. You could definitely qualify for a spot on Trump’s Supreme Court.
All they are a modification to turn a semiautomatic gun into a full automatic weapon. That’s it. All the intricate dribble into the contrary doesn’t change that. Water is wet, sky blue, and modifications allowing automatic fire are machine guns.
All they are a modification to turn a semiautomatic gun into a full automatic weapon.
They don’t though. And I went into great detail as to what exactly they do and how it works to explain why they don’t do that.
An automatic weapon fires more than once per operation of the trigger by definition. Any gun that fires once per operation of the trigger is not automatic by definition.
A bump stock doesn’t change that, it makes it easier and more accurate to bump.fire, which is basically using the recoil to bounce your finger off the trigger and back onto it to pull it faster than you otherwise would.
With practice you can bump fire with a regular stock, that doesn’t mean all semiautomatic weapons are actually automatic.
Like the binary trigger thing - eventually that will be challenged in the courts and the argument won’t be over whether or not the words binary trigger are in the law, but whether or not lifting your finger off the trigger counts as a second operation of the trigger or as part of the previous one because that is what would determine if it fires one or two shots per operation of the trigger and thus whether or not it’s legally automatic and whether or not it is controlled as an automatic weapon.
The law doesn’t say what you wish it said, and it isn’t exactly vague.
You went into a ton of detail, thank you. But it is meaningless under the original definition of the act.
“The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.”
A bump stock modifies the frame of the gun which converts it into a fully automatic weapon. Don’t just get stuck on the trigger part of the action. The act covers everything, you just can’t cherry pick a single clause and ignore everything else. Otherwise they just might make you into one of Trump’s Supreme Court justices.
Democrats like to bitch about Republicans but their platforms are 95% the same. The real enemy is leftists, and they’ll take Trump for 4 terms before they ever give an inch to the left.
their platforms are 95% the same.
Economically, yes, but socially, no. That social part matters quite a bit.
Social policies have only been made to matter to create an illusion of two parties. In 1973 Republican and Democratic voters were equally likely to say abortion should be legal.
The US is a corporatocracy and business cares nothing about social matters. Their lobbying efforts fund both sides to ensure that the economic laws meet big business goals no matter who wins.
Ehhhhh it matters less than dems want us to think. Social policy doesn’t matter if nobody can make endsmeat. The social policy of dems is just the other wing of our singular corporate party providing the illusion of choice.
Christofascism or fascism with a pride flag, either way we funnel more of our wealth to the 1% and further disenfranchise everybody else.
I agree that both sides are just funneling money into wall street and dont care about the average person, but what do you mean by fasciam with a pride flag? The right has been actively undermining freedoms for 8+ years now. At least 8 years in plain view. What has “the left” even done to resemble any kind of fascism in your eyes?
I used quotes there because i feel its important to keep it clear that the american left in main stage politics is much closer to a center, right leaning party on a grander scale.
Democrats are working on half the shit they claim to be protecting us from as we speak. Your first mistake is seeing Democrats as “left” even with quotes. Democrats are mid right to the Republicans far right.
By “fascism with a pride flag” I mean they’re pushing a lot of the policies they said we have to vote D to prevent, and their blue MAGA accepts and defends it because apparently fascism is perfectly fine so long as we pay lip service to gays.
(To be clear, I’m super ongoing with lgbtqia rights, but democrats are already wishy washy on trans rights and will go after gays soon enough so long as we keep rewarding them for sprinting further right.)
Did you read the second point i made? I quite literally said that the dems are center right. Anyways, i havent heard of dems authoring or pushing fascist legislation. I have heard of and live through the dems doing fuck all about it though, so my point of view is that i have 2 options. Fascists that push money to wall street, and do-nothings that push money to wall street. If its my only option ill take it. But fuck biden.
fascism with a pride flag
Wait, what? I’ve never heard anyone claim that those are in in way similar before. That’s a new one for me.
My point is that democrat voters are rewarding D politicians for pushing and enacting the very fascist legislation they claim to be protecting us from - because apparently fascism is fine so long as they pay lip service to the lgbtqia community.
Can you tell me what legislation by dems are fascist?
I honestly sometimes think that the democrats (at least some) think like this but are in the closet, other times I think their non-action to the republicans shit actions are just part of the overall plan.
Stone looks like the bad guy from Star Trek: Generations on a prosperity gospel infomercial trying to sell you on a scam.
It looks like he’s wearing a rubber mask. It’s unsettling.
It’s Botox+surgery+concealer, right?
Same thing happened with Bannon before the 2020 election. It won’t make a difference to the cult
Also caught on tape: “Pardon me.”
Stone: The lights are on, but no one’s home.
I don’t know if anyone else has pointed this out, in this photo especially, Roger Stone looks like a caricature of Mr. Burns from The Simpsons.
Roger Stone looks like a caricature of Mr. Burns from The Simpsons.
Who is himself a caricature of an old and evil rich man. If the shoe fits…
Btw, remember when he showed up to the inauguration looking like a literal Batman villain?
IIRC, Mr. Burns was meant to be a caricature of specifically Rupert Murdoch.
wow, posh spice let herself go
I say if Ebeneezer Scrooge were a real person and alive today, that is exactly what he would look like.
I get fundraising texts occasionally. I don’t know why. But the one that came on the heels of the conviction had a section of fine print declaring what the money was for. It included a “recount challenge fund”. This is in the open.
Well, given how broke the Republican Party is they’re probably still paying off the lawyers from their failed challenges from 2020. But they’re also planning on doing it again.
