Me too Bernie, me too.
Biden should step down as the nominee and ask Bernie to run.
Bernie has my vote! Biden never will.
Burn it all down woohoo /s
If you like Bernie so much maybe listen to him?
“We can be extremely upset at the Biden administration for their policies with regard to Israel and Gaza, but the difficulty is that in the real world that you live in, you’ve got to take a look at a whole lot of things,” he said, sitting in the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee hearing room on Capitol Hill. “On the other hand, I would hope that most of the young people and protestors do not want to see Donald Trump, who is a racist, a sexist, a homophobe who doesn’t acknowledge the reality of climate change, become elected president of the United States.”
Yeah, Bernie always carries water for the DNC, and it’s always to the detriment of progressive American politics.
…got to take a look at a lot of things
Record oil and gas drilling, multi-time failure to codify Roe, redlining, gave away the public option, Manchin’s removed, Bibi’s removed, tricked Warren to betray Bernie for nothing, fascist crackdown on peacefully protesting college kids, ancient dinosaur who’s out of touch. I could go on.
There are other options aside from red and blue, and as a swing state voter, I’ll be taking them. The establishment Dems would have you be angry with me and those like me, but this is a misdirection and also just another of Biden’s failings - no ability to take responsibility for his own reprehensible actions.
Americans like you are the absolute worst. So damn irresponsible. All that undeserved extra voting power you have, and you choose to squander it and use it for an act of shameful self-righteousness, with no regard for the consequences of your actions. You clearly have zero respect for progressive politics, progressive movements, and even progressive leaders.
Ignorant liberal voters: as useful for destroying democracy as ignorant fascists
Keep voting for 99% Hitler instead of 100% gets us to the same place
Biden is not fuckin Hitler, you enlightened genius!
Keep voting for
Ralph NaderGary Johnson… err I mean Jill Stein instead of doing something useful.Seriously, what’s the worse that could happen? It’s not like
Bush will get us into a massive war and end any hope at fighting climate changeerr I mean, it’s not likeTrump will enflame the ongoing war in the Middle East and decimate any chance the Supreme Court will side with minorities for an entire generationno wait, I mean, surely Trump won’t imprison his political enemies and dismantle the electoral process.Ignore what I crossed out; it’s just American history. You probably wouldn’t be interested
Game theory is a tough subject, but it would be worth it for you to study to understand how you are acting against your less preferred candidate and helping what should be your least preferred candidate (assuming your ranked choice has the republican nominee below the democratic nominee).
Keep voting for 99% … gets us to the same place
You make it seem as though your protest vote does not also get us to the same place? Many voters have shared your mentality and voted accordingly for the past 200+ years and it’s not made a difference, what makes you think this time things will change?
Biden isn’t 99% Hitler though
The only stickler really is the Israeli support, which he is trying to stop. He isn’t even actively pursuing it.
So it is 20% Hitler at best, and dropping.
I’m always teleported back to grade school and the token, “difficult home life” kid. They sit there and back talk the teacher all day long applying their contrarian logic to everything little. Hell, on some level I’d even agree with them but not because they’re right in what they are doing but they accidentally make a salient point. The end of the day though, the teacher was attempting to do good for this kid and we all just watch as they throw back in their face.
This may be a hot take but as someone in my 40s I don’t think anybody in their 80s has a fucking clue what’s good for me.
How is failure to codify Roe on your list and you don’t give a shit if we have more fundamentalist judges or not?
How is oil and gas drilling on your list and you don’t give a shit if the executive branch is actively dismantling the EPA or not?
I also hate Manchin, you think a progressive Dem is going to be elected in WV? It’s either him or a Repub.
I’m not mad at you, specifically, but it is enraging to see dimwits throw their ballots in the trash. Good luck to all of us. Your preferred system is not going to rise from the ashes.
Resize the court is obviously the only solution to this broken situation primed to let the criminal, traitor Trump walk free.
EPA doesn’t mean shit when energy companies are lobbying both sides. Is this supposed to be a determining factor? Look no further than mayor Pete’s handling of East Palestine, OH for your answer.
Richard Ojeda actually had a good chance in WV until the DNC poured millions into attack ads to keep their establishment dog in power. Said dog went on to ram through yet another disastrous pipeline thanks to Biden , lining both their pockets with oil and gas money, before riding off into the sunset.
Luck has nothing to do with it with a system so brutally rigged against the populace. Neither of these “sides” is ever going to do anything beyond exploiting us. I’ll use what little power remains in my vote to try for an alternative. If more people believed something better was possible, perhaps we could yet achieve it.
Can you just save it for a different election? I’m all about 3rd party politics making inroads. But, Jill Stein is NOT going to be elected this time around. Sorry to break it to you. And if Trump gets elected, guess what: we might not have free and fair elections to vote for 3rd parties at all! What’s the plan then?
Nah, you’re using what little power remains in your vote to line a trashcan. And you don’t care about the consequences because you are privileged enough that you won’t be directly targeted by Repubs.
But the important thing is you’ll have owned the “Bothsides Uniparty” by… helping Donald get elected? Yeah, the massive tax cuts will really sting their butts. Good thinking.
There are other options aside from red and blue, and as a swing state voter, I’ll be taking them.
me when I decide to waste my vote as a swing state voter, instead of meaningfully pulling my support for a candidate that’s ultimately going to get elected anyways out of protest as a non-swing state voter:
waste my vote
Voter suppression tactics
good acknowledgement of the pointI was making there, very cool
Also trump is aligned with Netanyahu and is friends with him. Do they think trump being elected will have Israel have peace with Gaza because it would definitely be the opposite. This is playing out like the Carter/Regan election with the Iran Hostage Crisis in a losing effort for Biden if they don’t figure it out.
The end of the day I won’t blame the young people, though. I will blame the red hat fascists who want to install an orange dictator.
I blame First Past The Post voting, for keeping the people handcuffed to two legacy political parties.
Perhaps Republicans would vote less clowns into office, but they are chained to the Republican party.
Same is true for the Democrats. We don’t need to be stuck with these two parties. There can be something else.
Right. I wish people were upset about not having ranked choice as they were the genocide in Gaza. If we changed the way we voted voting for the lesser evil wouldn’t be a thing.
Why not? I blame my dumb ass for voting for Nader in 2000. Don’t be like me. Learn from the mistakes of others!
The people who are to blame are the Republicans. That is where you need to direct your anger.
I’m not angry. I regret voting third-party in an election that barely elected Bush a year before 9/11. I’m encouraging others to learn from my mistake.
Sure but we keep losing sight of what is truly pushing us over the edge
Wanting a three party system but the government won’t comply?
I was going with a single party trying to install an autocrat.
They don’t understand that Trump is just as pro-Israel as Biden, if not even more so considering he moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem.
And once again, as the foreign trolls that are busy courting our youth want, not one comment in this entire thread mentions that Europe is on the brink of open modernized war should Ukraine fall to vlad “Ukraine is just a stepping stone” putin.
Gaza is a genocide, but that is not the critical geopolitical stage to be paying the most attention to. Once again it is completely ignored that the heads of hamas who attacked israel on oct 7 knowing exactly what they were about to cause are friends of putin.
The Gaza genocide was provoked precisely to pull western eyes from the Ukrainian front where russia was more than underperforming to ensure their victory in a sustained war of attrition.
You want to avoid a world war? You vote for biden whether u do it proudly or do it holding ur nose the way most of the sane will.
Yeah even to expand on that - they don’t understand that everything they don’t like about Biden, they’ll like about Trump less. I mean I have real serious gripes about Biden but it is insultingly stupid to pretend that Trump would be any kind of a solution to those problems.
Or they understand that all this apolgetics for the Dems being the lesser of two evils just results in them being the same evil, just four years later. The Dems are still running internment camps at the border. They are still building Trumps wall.
By never threatening them with actual consequences to their power, you give them a blanket check to fuck everyone over for their rich donors. And that is exactly what they did and continue to do.
It seems that many of them know that Trump is worse, but think that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action. Republicans count on people like that to win. Fascists don’t give a fuck how they get into power, as long as they do.
Republicans count on people like that to win.
Republicans have lost more than one Senate seat because they ran zealous nutbag losers in safe elections and pissed off moderates.
I’m not sure why Democrats get to run pro-war Zionists and Blue Lives fascists, free from the fear that they’ll suffer the same fate.
They don’t just count on it. They actively invade spaces and spread that idea. I’m almost certain the first people saying that about Biden/Israel were right wing trolls, and people on the left actually took the bait and started spreading it themselves.
I get the sentiment, because I hate our two choices, too, but until first past the post system is changed, the lesser of two evils will always be the most practical choice.
What exactly is your plan for changing first past the post?
You could make the case that if the democrats actually supported that, it’s worth holding your nose and voting for them in order to open up other options in the future. But they don’t support it, because they benefit from it. So basically you’re asking the left to keep voting for the democrats unconditionally forever while they don’t address any of our concerns and refuse to make any sort of reforms that might allow us to have a voice in the future. How is that a viable path to accomplishing anything?
They also seem to fervently believe:
- Stop participating in 2 party system
- ???
- Get ranked choice system
Any time you ask for details on step 2, you get an unhinged rant with zero plausibility.
Lemmy is absolutely infested with right wing trolls pretending to be leftists. And the worst part is that .ml protects them because they are completely blinded to this subversion by their pathological instinct to relitigate the cold war.
It’s incredibly obvious to everyone who understands why assuming the moniker of a Haitian slave turned actual freedom fighter is actually incredibly offensive to those dealing with real oppression, both modern and historical.
Yeah but the problem is we live in at least a pro-fascist state if not a fascist state already. So convincing people who realize this to vote for the guy who has been voting for fascist policies for decades (as well as some progressive ones, for those who will say I’m ignoring the “good” he’s done) and is actively supporting genocide not just in policy but in his statements and apparently beliefs is going to be pretty tough. It’s not just about voting “not Trump” anymore, people also want to vote “not Biden”.
They know Donald will destabilize the country and accelerate a collapse. They think that will make room for China to expand.
that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action.
Taking the “moral high” ground even though it would have a bad result. Sounds like what the DEMs do all the time.
“I learned it from you” -young people probably.
Removed by mod
That’s the great part about our democracy: You don’t get to vote for someone who isn’t pro-Israel. Because freedom.
Can you imagine how dumb it would be to vote for someone who isn’t though?
The only reason I think Trump isn’t pro-Palestine (Russian ally through Iran) is because the war is a good distraction from Ukraine
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Palestine (Russian ally through Iran)
Russia isn’t in military allience with Iran. Both Russia and Iran are neighbors sanctioned by the US, forcing them into a business partnership by exclusion.
And Iran isn’t allied with Gaza Palestinians. You’re confusing them with the Yemeni Houthis and West Bank Hezbollah. What you have is Israelis engaging in terrorist acts against both states, then conflating retaliation with cooperation.
https://apnews.com/general-news-08f1ea9e849a49c5a741bf0e1582b616
Also Israel is a state not a terrorist organization, they are participating in war crimes
Also Israel is a state not a terrorist organization
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_state-sponsored_terrorism
An early example of Israeli state-sponsored was the 1954 Lavon Affair, a botched bomb plot in Egypt that led to the resignation of the Israeli defense minister at the time. In the 1970s and 1980s, Israel was also a major supplier of arms to dictatorial regimes in South America, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Asia. In the 21st-century, it has been accused of sponsoring and supporting several terrorist groups as part of its proxy conflict with Iran.
Israel is a state
Response:you’re right but here’s a list of organizations that are
Congratulations, just seems like wasted effort
You’re right that a state can commit terrorism just like a group can, but the key issue here is whether the state works towards being held accountable and towards achieving a long term benefit for all its benefactors, investors, assets and the society it’s providing for
https://al-shabaka.org/briefs/the-systematic-torture-of-palestinians-in-israeli-detention/
The recent case of Samer Arbeed highlighted once again the systematic use of torture against Palestinian detainees in Israeli prisons. Israeli soldiers arrested Arbeed at his home in Ramallah on September 25, 2019. They beat him severely before taking him to Al Moscobiyye detention center in Jerusalem for interrogation. Two days later, according to his lawyer, he was hospitalized as a result of severe torture, and lay in critical condition for several weeks. A judicial body had authorized the Israeli Secret Service, the Shin Bet, to use “exceptional methods” to extract information in this case without going through the courts. This led Amnesty International to condemn what happened to Arbeed as “legally-sanctioned torture.“
Yeah Donald “Muslim ban” and “finish the job” Trump is not pro-Palestine only for reasons of distraction.
Donald “carpet bomb the middle east” trump
Might possibly be pandering to his base
Being pro-Israel and being pro-Palestine are mutually exclusive positions since Israel is genociding Palestine.
That’s like saying you can be pro Nazi and pro jew.
I mostly agree in fact, however in definition it isn’t true. Israel is a nation that could exist in many other forms. It doesn’t have to do what it’s doing. It’s not the same as “pro-Nazi” because Nazism is an ideology, not a nation. A nation doesn’t have any set ideals, only a set of people and borders it represents.
You can be anti-Nazi and pro-Germany because Nazis didn’t define Germany. They were Nazis at one point in time but are now represented by totally different ideals.
Agreed
Socially Jew, economically Nazi?
No it would be like Finland allying with Germany because they had to be against Russia
But I didn’t say pro-Palestine, I said pro-Palestinian which you clearly know the difference since you had to change it to make your point
You just proved my point. The Finland/Germany/Russia comparison only fits with ‘Palestine’.
The Nazi/Jews comparison is accurate with ‘Palestinian’.
Would it be easier if I said “Finnish” instead of Finland?
If the US backs Palestine do you honestly believe they will turn against all their allies to aid American security of the region and be Israel 2.0?
That is irrelevant to the conversation.
The state of Israel is currently genociding Palestinians. You can’t support the state of Israel and support the Palestinian people at the same time. Full stop.
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Like I said: Freedom. 🇺🇸🦅🍔
*electoral system
Because of FPTP and the Winner Take All Electoral College, there is a lot of political pressure to only have 2 parties. In a better system (proportional, ranked choice, etc) it wouldn’t break with more than two parties. In fact just reforming the electoral college to be proportional would likely allow 3 parties to exist.
If you look at history the last time there was a viable 3rd party it possibly initiated the civil war by allowing an anti slavery viewpoint to exist (which is good, but if we’d had a better voting system it would have happened earlier and reduced a lot of suffering)
And if a frog had wings he wouldn’t bump his ass when he hopped.
We have FPTP, and we’ll have it until I’m cold and dead in the ground.
even republican-ass alaska passed RCV.
Yay, Alaska and Maine did it. Very good. Wake me when it’s a state that has more people than moose does it.
Burlington VT also switched off FPTP… and then we fucking back slid because “it’s too confusing!”
I think it’s highly unlikely we get off FPTP at a national level.
alaska also has some kind of UBI because of their oil stuff, I’m not sure they slot as easily into political partisanship as most other states
And it failed in blue as fuck Massachusetts
Electoral system…
Just as I have to watch half the electorate embrace the most asinine BS possible to justify selfishness and hate… it’s not that far out to see people screaming “genocide joe!” at everyone they see, as they turn off everyone and defeat themselves at every chance.
The cool part is focusing all your effort into a camp-out such that your main message is synonymous with homelessness and you self defeat your own goals… all while you call the liberal element genocidal and basically show the world your biggest effort is to sit still while cutting off the liberal nose to spite your face.
Purely hypothetical question for you: If you had a choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election which would you choose?
Ok purely hypothetical right back for you…
Do your ideals exist outside of pure hypotheticals? Can you cite them?
If you had a real choice… say in the upcoming election…
Who would you choose?
Well shit, if you had a purely hypothetical choice, what would you choose?
I’m voting 3rd party so according to liberal and moderate logic that probably means I’m supporting Israel.
The important part is that the equation means more than you.
Vote how you mean, and ignore how your vote’s mean.
Good for you.
So what’s your choice? Supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election?
Trump is just as pro-Israel as Biden
While Trump is also straight-up anti-Muslim and loves Netanyahu.
The GOP openly courts antisemitists while also supporting Israel. They make sure to have all the awful bases covered.
Congress is bipartisan pro-Israel. This isn’t even a presidential issue.
Biden just happens to be the guy doing the pro-Israel stuff at the moment, so he’s eating the lions share of the public ire.
“You have to support the Pro-Israel guy because the other guy is pro-Israel and both party leaders are pro-Israel and the cops are trained by Israelis and Israeli businesses have strong ties with the MIC and Big Finance needs Israel to control trade through the Suez and you’re outnumbered and outgunned so quit fighting, just vote for Joe Biden” just isn’t a winning message among progressive voters this year.
Maybe try it again in 2026.
He absolutely is more so. Also, young people have more power to influence Biden because they are part of his coalition. Of course, using this power is tricky because you need to pressure and criticize Biden without actually making him lose. So far I support the pressure campaign but I hope as the election gets closer people will start to realize what an epic disaster Trump term two would be.
Are young people really a part of Bidens coalition? Bidens policies and rhetoric have consistantly pushed young people away. The ridiculous speech he gave just a few minutes ago maligning student protestors is emblematic of this.
And it seems like young people have got the message. The last poll I saw had 18-24yr olds voting for Trump at +8%
Historically they have been. I think Biden seems out of touch but I’m not sure I agree with this sentiment overall. That poll sounds dubious but I mean coalitions can change certainly. Trump seems even further from the views I see most young people espousing so I’m not sure why they would move to him but maybe it’s protest vote kind of situation.
Young people are part of the coalition but they’ve never proven to be a reliable part. When the 18-25s vote like the older generations then campaigns will start to take their needs more seriously.
Exactly. When I was 18-25 bernie learned this. We didn’t like Hillary so we got trump.
It’s a two way street. Young progressives don’t see any reason to vote for Democrats who won’t fight for any of the policies they care about, so they wont defend or fight for those officials.
If i am thirsty and someone is offering me toilet water after they just shit in the toilet, I don’t need to show gratitude to the next person who comes by offering water from their toilet after they pissed in it.
Your analogy is completely absurd though, it’s more like voting for cake and getting bread - and then being so pissed off about the bread that you let bread guy get voted out in favor of toilet guy.
Hold it!
Let me make sure I’ve got that right. In this analogy, a candidate supporting genocide is a perfectly fine option, and people who have a problem with him are comparable to picky eaters?
This is what I’ve been saying: Don’t vote and expect cake. Vote and expect bread at best. Lower your expectations and treat it like paying your taxes and you’ll feel better about it.
Young voters delivered GA in 2020, and what did Dems do with that majority?
Biden immediately dropped all pretense of doing immigration reform because an unelected senate parliamentarian said no, offered no meaningful student debt relief, didn’t legalize cannabis, and is drilling for oil at record rates - more so than Trump did. Dems had yet another chance to codify Roe, and blew it. Biden even left in Louis DeJoy as postmaster general. Now he’s mischaracterizing peaceful student protesters as violent radicals, while actual thugs in riot gear and stars of david are free to descend upon them and beat them into submission.
Don’t blame young people for having eyes and ears and paying attention - Biden had his chance, and blew it in favor of his donors’ interests. It’s a tale as old as time, and if you have any interest in actually galvanizing youthful voters, you’ve got to offer something better than the outmoded views of geriatric, genocidin’ Biden.
as somebody with a cumulative $130k in student loan debt, whose loans just went into repayment last year, don’t fucking speak for me on whether i think Biden is trying to do something about it. needless to say i’m following that topic, and i see the efforts Biden/the current admin is making, and i see it repeatedly thwarted by right-wing politicians at fed and state levels.
every time i read a statement like yours, i get the feeling it’s coming from someone who isn’t in repayment yet.
edit - or a right-wing troll
I hear you on student debt forgiveness, Biden has done $144B, which is a little under a tenth of the total. I give that to him as part of the 10% of his campaign promises he has actually delivered on, but it’s not nearly enough. And holy hell did he screw up delivering on that - telling all those borrowers they were getting relief, only to snatch it away from them some months later in a most confusing and disorganized way. Truly inept.
Why not forgive all the student debt? The cost of higher learning in this country is absurd. Especially when you consider that many of these universities are land grant institutions. The commodification of education was a huge mistake (thanks W Bush for eliminating the tuition cap and opening the floodgates). Biden himself authored the legislation which prevents students from declaring bankruptcy when they inevitably get crushed from the massive amount of debt brought on by pursuing degrees. This is how they tag team us, to cement corporate hegemony. Here is a perfect example where Biden has a chance to make things right, but of course he wants nothing of it.
Instead, Biden sends billions overseas to massacre brown children. All the while preventing the UN from doing anything about it to keep civilians safe.
Instead, Biden locks in over half of Trump’s $2T tax cuts for the rich and corporations. Recapturing those alone could have paid for all the student debt. Literally all of it.
So yes, you’re correct that repugnantcons play their part to ensure corporate domination of our lives. But realize the Dems are also fiscal conservatives, and also extremely pro corporate, and they are complicit in this great robbery as well.
yes, even though i didn’t get my $20k forgiveness, i’m sure current admin would be SUPER SUCCESSFUL in pushing through forgiveness of all student loan debt. no pushback from the right at all. /s
yes, even though the right is attempting to dismantle education at all levels, i’m sure the left could absolutely succeed in making quality higher ed free for everyone in a single term, no problem. /s
seriously though, i don’t think it’s worthwhile to pin our hopes on any administration achieving hugely improved outcomes on any complex issue in one or two terms. on a societal level, i think things decay and fall apart more easily than utopia is realized. i’m hoping for slow progress. i’m not holding my breath or shooting myself in the foot voting third party right now and expecting a miracle.
final thought as i write this - has utopia ever been realized on any significant scale? only for some, and only for a time.
Downvote me if you want but it’s still a fact that older voters vote more reliably and therefore get better representation. I don’t know that GA was that large of a deviation but even if it was, in general the younger vote still can’t be counted on.
Either way, your comment is case in point (if not also a bit misinformed) - if the youth vote is going to abandon the Dems after one election you can kind of see why they might consider spending more time and money going after a more reliable bloc.
I love your framing here, “youth vote is going to abandon the Dems.” lol!
The youth vote delivered a majority for the Dems, which was squandered yet again, because democrats don’t actually want to lead. Dems clearly are a fundraising organization, not a political organization.
Shouldn’t the DNC have to do something to earn people’s votes? Instead they spit in our faces as they continue to serve the corporate donors.
So fine, let them continue to court boomers. Because that will obviously work forever.
Correction - you were the one that implied the young people were going to abandon the dems: “Biden had his chance, and blew it”
“because you need to pressure and criticize Biden without actually making him lose”
“We need to be toothless about our criticism of Biden” FTFY
The threat of making your candidate lose is the only power you have to shift them.
Next time you’re negotiating for a car, see how much the seller budges after you preceed negotiations with “Now, I am fully committed and happy paying sticker price, but how much can you lower the price?”
I’m fully committed to lesser evil voting since it’s the only viable electoral strategy. So as long as Biden is better than Trump I would vote for him. I have a hard time understanding why people don’t see that this is the most rational way to vote. If you don’t like it, and I don’t either, then you need to pursue strategies to change it, particularly outside the electoral system. Since these strategies do not conflict with voting I think it’s rational to pursue both actions.
And no I don’t think we need to be toothless. But a lot of people don’t seem to be smart enough to walk the line of threatening to withhold support without actually doing so. I’m not going to go right up to Biden and tell him that’s what I’m doing. He doesn’t know what my strategy is, so it can still be effective.
I mean so lesser evil voting is generally a good strategy for damage control, but it’s not necessarily a great strategy in terms of like, blanket things you can just effect to the whole. If you take a voter in a non-swing state, say, california, a state that votes very consistently, them defecting their vote to a third party which represents them more accurately, is going to be of much lesser weight in totality than if someone in a swing state had done so. They are probably much safer in their estimation of walking up towards the line without crossing it. This is probably also true of states who get their votes tallied up later on, and also of states where projections are already in favor of certain candidates, since those projections affect elections.
This also kind of discounts “not voting” as an electoral strategy because that doesn’t send a super clear signal, but it’s probably not the worst thing in the world, since we could kind of file them away under like, either the average non-voter’s position in their state, or just the average non-voter’s position at large, which is probably going to be more radical of an average position than most would think.
But yeah, all of this still tracks with what you’re saying so far. I think the biggest determining factor for me, though, is that electoralism as a strategy at all hinges on the assumption that democrats would rather move left than lose to republicans. And I dunno, that’s kind of a tenuous assumption, and I think is the major disagreement on people who are willing to engage in electoralism vs those who aren’t, is that most people who aren’t, assume that the democrats would rather lose to republicans and ensure a status quo/backslide into fascism rather than move to the left.
The threat of making your candidate lose is the only power you have to shift them.
I mean this is also not really a threat, though. I think realistically biden and trump are both closer to each other than either of them are to this like, eclectic amalgamation of positions that is the “youth vote”. Him not winning isn’t like, still a victory, in that circumstance, but it’s not like, a loss to them in the same way that it would be if they actually had to do all the stuff the “youth vote” wanted. Basically I’m just saying that they, the DNC broadly I suppose, would rather give as little as they absolutely can, while still maintaining a delicate balance of power where they’re the only ones that can maintain the status quo rather than a backslide into total fascism. Going with all the “youth vote” positions, to them, would be as big if not a bigger loss than a slide into total fascism.
Which is to say, I think they’re willing to lose as long as it means they don’t have to really do anything major.
Which is to say, I think they’re willing to lose as long as it means they don’t have to really do anything major.
100% agree. This is something liberal and moderate voters are completely blind to.
He said he would level Palestine.
Not sure what these youngins are reading but he isn’t coy about it.
Biden said this? When?
I think they were referencing Trump as that’s who was being discussed in the last sentence.
Oh that makes sense.
I fucking hate, and from the bottom of my heart, how Biden is funding the genocide in Palestine, but I’m still going to vote for him this time, because we just can’t have a person like Trump in the white house, period. I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time. I’d never let my 10 year old lead a country, yet we let Trump do it for four fucking years. I, too, am sick of this “the lesser of two evils” bullshit, but this time I’m giving it a pass because of Trump. We already have a crumbling country and can’t afford another four years of this dude.
Your ten-year-old is more mature than Trump.
Not a joke.
Ten year old?! Thats a high bar for most republicans these days. They want knee jerk and whining. Thats something most 10 year olds are already figuring out doesnt get them what they want.
That’s basically my point. That, and how Trump brags that he hasn’t matured past the age of six.
Knowing my son? He absolutely is way more mature than Trump.
I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time.
Electoral College, should not exist.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
He has all but said he would cut Israel loose to do whatever they needed to finish the job.
The use of Israeli aggression is not a point of comparison when viewing the differences between trump and Biden.
No one denies that trump will fund it. That’s not the point, but I get what you mean.
I’ve argued with multiple people on here who said Trump would be better for Palestinians than Biden is.
Lmfao. Nah, that’s too much credit. Way too much.
No one denies that trump will fund it
And? The problem is that these people won’t really address the fact that Trump would be worse than Biden
It isn’t the potential for denial that initiated my reply, it’s the fact that people declare US support of Israel is a strike against Biden when comparing Biden to trump as a reason to consider not voting for Biden. This is a false comparison and it is the point I am making.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
Because Democrats are suppose to be better than that. But, apparently, they actually aren’t.
This is about the Democratic party. This whole “vote for the least fascist candidate” has reached a breaking point. It’stotally beyond the pale and isn’t just about whats best for the next election cycle. People simply cannot actively support a genocidal party because it runs fundementally against their core values.
We’re not talking about compromising on tax policy or economics here. We’re talking about fully mask off genocide support. It’s deeply unconscionable to anyone who has a moral compass.
simply cannot actively support a genocidal party because it runs fundementally against their core values.
So by not voting they default to the fascist one. Good for them, at least they (didn’t) vote for the least worst option.
No, you’re not listening. Stop fear-babbling about fucking Trump for one fucking second and consider that voting for Biden is voting for genocide. It’s putting your own name to it.
While that clearly means nothing to you and you’rejust fixated on your own self-interest, consider how non-sociopaths might view this choice.
Ok. GFY for making the “if you vote for Biden you vote for genocide” argument while completely ignoring trump would do the same. You’re just a damn shill for the right wing. Useless MF.
Unreal. Willing to vote for an extremist right-wing government support genocide and has the nerve to call others “shills for the right wing”.
Unreal. Willing to try to convince others to not vote so we get fascism on top of genocide. What a transparent tool.
Seriously. Don’t vote for Biden so this other fascist wins and Palestine sill gets screwed!
Transparent AF.
If voting for Biden is voting for genocide, then not voting or voting third party is voting for Trump, genocide and the destruction of democracy in the US.
The destruction of democracy in the United States has much deeper roots, and has been in-process for a long time. How long the effects have been visible is arguable, and the manifestation unpredictable, but fundamentally, a voting system which doesn’t allow people to express their actual preferences, well, isn’t representative of people’s actual preferences.
I can’t think of any more-profound way to state that truth at this early hour. A “democracy” which doesn’t reflect the will of the people is a democracy in name only, and we can only keep the “lesser-evil” streak going for so long before we’re so far into evil that we “have to” vote for a candidate materially supporting genocide so we don’t get the candidate who supports genocide without having non-actionable “concerns” about it.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
And hence why I won’t vote for Trump either. It’s not that hard to understand.
Certain important people need to keep selling spyware, drugs, guns and war to keep themselves and their associates employed. As for whether the funds or the actual work (conflict) available is sustainable is for everyone including the accountants to consider.
The other problem is that war doesn’t really die, we just displace where we choose to fight, and how, if we imagine physical and cyber world peace for a moment, for the USA or China to reduce its military capacity by one third, or one tenth, we would see absolute chaos, thousands unemployed, the losses in maintenance and equipment, military supplies, medical, etc, nobody would win.
Any complex society where financial and other systems operate needs a minimum degree of social enforcement to maintain. Whether that can change like a function or is something that depends on a country’s GDP is another issue.
Just consider that humanity would either need lots of free time, energy and money or it would literally need to feel incredibly threatened by something on earth, which we all could not fight to control in order to actually fund going to space or even the moon, and I doubt a triple whammy of pandemic, food shortage or severe draught and floods could do it, it happened in the Bible and people literally just found more dumb reasons to do more dumb things, and no lowering mens testosterone or telling guys to shave more often wouldn’t do shit either. If people don’t find reasons to explore or learn, they find reasons to fight/play fight, it’s pretty normal, and if anyone remembers their childhood, usually it’s pretty much the same across generations.
I’m 100% sure trump would have taken charge over there because it was taking too long.
Genocide? Hold my beer.
Biden is not funding Israel. The United States government is. Even if he wanted to stop the aid (he doesn’t), he doesn’t have the power to just ignore laws passed by Congress. Trump did that with Ukraine and got impeached for it.
I mean, he fundamentally does have the power to veto laws. There are potentially negative political consequences in doing so, but he certainly has that power.
Vetoing a bill with well over 2/3 support is pointless because it will just be overridden.
I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time.
I’d point out that the first step in changing somebody’s mind on a topic is always to figure out why they believe and behave as they do.
“I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time”
Easy. He was propped up by democrats, namely Hillary Clinton.
If we reach a point 40 years from now when your choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a republican supporting 10 genocides, are you still going to be militantly democrat and lash out at leftists who are sick of the whole thing?
You think you will still be able to vote in 40 years if Donald “dictator for a day” Trump gets elected this time?
Oh my sweet summer child. Your vote will be as meaningful as the ones in Russia.
So if a Trump presidency means the end of democracy in America, why hasn’t Trump been outlawed?
Why is Biden focusing on banning TikTok instead of truth social? Why weren’t the courts getting stacked 2 years ago? Why are the democrats’ obsession with “precedent” and “civility” taking more primacy than outlawing a candidate who, by their own admission, would mean the end of democracy?
By propping up Trump, the democrats have effortlessly oriented you such that you now give blind support to a genocidal regime. You’ve given the democrats a blank check. The democrats would rather lose to Trump and usher in fascism than shift left in the slightest way (halting genocide).
Also, epic reddit catchphrase my good sir. I tip my hat you, for you are a gentleman and a scholar.
woohoo. 10 genocides but such a moral victory.
In this hypothetical we wouldn’t have the option to vote 40 years from now because dim bulbs allowed an insurrectionist to be elected. Donald will also accelerate climate fuckery so anyway we’ll be too busy squabbling over what meager food comes out of the remaining arable regions.
Purely hypothetical question for you: Would you rather continue supporting Israel or see Biden win the 2024 election?
Enjoy the extra genocide Donald “Muslim ban” Trump brings to the conflict and starts up locally. You guys really want him to “finish the job,” huh?
That’s pretty repugnant IMO, but people like you are privileged enough to watch from afar as others lose their rights and their lives.
By not answering the question and participating in the process of this hypothetical choice the outcome is Israel is supported and Joe Biden loses the 2024 election.
Nope. I’ve stated this in multiple posts on other platforms, this is my last time going with this “lesser of two evils” bullshit. Because at some point, we HAVE to believe that it is intentional. I mean, what happened to “fool me once…”?
I think Joe Biden is maybe the best president of my lifetime, and I’m going to vote for him with my head held high even though I live in a red state where it doesn’t matter at all. I wish things were simpler in the Levant, but I appreciate that Joe Biden is between a rock and a hard place with Israel. It’s not like he can just take Bibi out. He’s not Boeing. That said, even if I laid the entire genocide at Biden’s feet (which, while he’s not blameless, is absolutely not appropriate), he would still be head and shoulders an improvement over Donald Trump.
For that matter, I’d absolutely let my 12 year old run this country before I’d let Trump have a second term. My kid is brilliant, and more importantly, unlike Trump he listens to advice, can take no for an answer, and gives a shit about having a functional democracy four years from now.
A second Trump term is an existential threat to the nation. Hold your nose, hold your neighbor’s nose if you have to, but every able-bodied patriot owes it to their descendants and their patriotic ancestors to prevent a second Trump term.
Biden went around congress to ship weapons to Israel. Painting him as helpless here is pure misinformation.
It’s not like he can just take Bibi out. He’s not Boeing.
Well, he is the President of the United States. We may have to pretend Bibi is a socialist though.
Old america vs Israeli desert trooper guy? That’s going to be an interesting one
Put a Columbia University T-shirt on him!
Someone ask the old fella to do a press release or a road map presentation to convince us all
I almost wish Jimmy Carter would run for a second term. 99? 82? Age is just a number now apparently anyway lol
I’ll say, the guy is taking abortion rights away.
Trumps not president. Biden is.
That sound… As if millions of “muh corrupt DNC” trolls cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced…
Recently came across project 2025, which is a plan to upend the government for trump to run it like a dictatorship. It’s actually frightening to even entertain the possibility. And I’m guessing it’s derived from how putin got to his dictatorship position, because trump really likes putin and met with him too often.
Man, I’d been ignoring the dread and focussing on the cool parts of the future that are coming, but this thread mamaged to break through my shield and fill me with a decent amount of WW3 dread
I think it would be helpful if people tranformed their concerns from meaningless doomposting to active political effort.
Cause the first is almost as bad as not worrying at all.
It ain’t just young people. I’ve got a lot of lefty friends and family who have been lost and are willing to gamble on turnip because they think there is no way to handle things worse than we are now.
I’m not worried. I’m just utterly disappointed in the younger generation. Not in the whole typical way you’d expect older generations to be towards the younger ones.
It’s more along the sense of “put down your fucking memes and jokes for abit and realize the reality that’s around you” deal. Because we’re now seeing the Onion practiced in our daily lives, we can’t make the shit up that is actively happening in real time. And it doesn’t affect just me, it affects you too.
We can’t be putting off this shit forever and sit there going “aww, I just hope it gets better” naturally.
Because let’s put it this way, say you don’t vote this general election and Biden wins. Okay, cool, we’ve dodged Trump. But know that in the next 4 years, Biden is not eligible to be re-elected so good on you to no longer see him on the ballot, but you’ll never know who could be next after him and there isn’t a lot of strong favorability for his VP either. Trump for all we know, is likely going to run until he dies, so he’s going to be trying again and again so long as he’s living and so long as his voter base is there to back him.
But even when he dies, god knows what the Republicans will try propping up. We’ve got a bit of a glimpse of that when known fascists like DeSantis tried running for presidency. The only reason him and other candidates has lost is because they can’t touch Trump. But when Trump does die, you know they’ll be back again.
My point is we need to keep Republican interests the fuck away. They’re nothing but destruction. How much evidence do you need before you see that? It’s all fun and games to you with your jokes and memes until you’re on the internet bitching and griping for why you think shit hits the fan or why you’re struggling to make a living.
We may be well and truly fucked.
I worry Bernie Sanders doesn’t know he’s irrelevant.
