Several service members told advocacy groups they felt like pawns in a political game and assignment was not necessary

Several service members told advocacy groups they felt like pawns in a political game and assignment was unnecessary

California national guards troops and marines deployed to Los Angeles to help restore order after days of protest against the Trump administration have told friends and family members they are deeply unhappy about the assignment and worry their only meaningful role will be as pawns in a political battle they do not want to join.

Three different advocacy organisations representing military families said they had heard from dozens of affected service members who expressed discomfort about being drawn into a domestic policing operation outside their normal field of operations. The groups said they have heard no countervailing opinions.

“The sentiment across the board right now is that deploying military force against our own communities isn’t the kind of national security we signed up for,” said Sarah Streyder of the Secure Families Initiative, which represents the interests of military spouses, children and veterans.

    • catloaf@lemm.eeEnglish
      0·
      3 months ago

      It’s not. Unhappy people can lash out. You put a bunch of angry people on the riot control line, and they might start hitting people. It’s all downhill from there.

      • glimse@lemmy.world
        0·
        3 months ago

        You’re right, it would be so much better if they were happy to be there. I would much prefer knowing that all of the soldiers are excited to suppress our constitutional right to protest. WAY better than the chance of one lashing out because they’re mad at their boss, right?

      • rhombus@sh.itjust.works
        0·
        3 months ago

        Low morale/dissatisfaction =/= anger. They’re more likely to be uncomfortable and unwilling to use violence against protesters, especially since they are significantly more trained to identify threats than police are. They know these protesters are not a threat, and all their training and rules of engagement tell them to not engage.

        • thebestaquaman@lemmy.world
          0·
          3 months ago

          While I generally agree that dissatisfaction != anger, soldiers who are repeatedly given orders they know are bullshit and that they strongly disagree with typically tend to get pissed at the people issuing those orders.

      • Lightor@lemmy.world
        0·
        3 months ago

        You’re making a lot of wild leaps from “I don’t feel good about being here and being used life this” to “I want to hit people!” even if they did, the people they want to hit are the ones who sent them there. And that’s also good.

      • Soulg@ani.socialEnglish
        0·
        3 months ago

        “Man we don’t want to be here this is stupid, guess I’ll just fucking murder a bunch of people to feel better”

    • evenglow@lemmy.world
      0·
      3 months ago

      Similar when they were doing border patrol in Texas.

      Military training is kinda big on threat identification and assessment. You don’t have to like the military to appreciate some of the stuff you can learn from it.

      Protesting is not a threat to America. It’s a threat to the people who are in charge.

      • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
        0·
        3 months ago

        That’s why it’s essential we keep it peaceful while we increase our numbers. If we are non-violent, we cannot be determined to be a domestic threat, and it’s the military’s duty to protect us.

        • MisterOwl@lemmy.world
          0·
          3 months ago

          If we are non-violent, TACO will just say “They’re violent!” and a majority of this country, including our military, will believe him. Things can only go downhill from here.

          Arm yourselves.

        • teejay@lemmy.worldEnglish
          0·
          3 months ago

          It’s not the military’s duty to protect protestors. Just as the police have no obligation to protect and serve citizens.

          • SaltSong@startrek.websiteEnglish
            0·
            3 months ago

            It’s not the military’s duty to protect protestors.

            The path of enlistment starts like this:

            I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same

            Peaceful protest is our constitutional right.

          • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            0·
            3 months ago

            I actually completely disagree.

            I’d argue that the armed forced have a rather explicit duty to protect their own fellow citizens as best they can.

            And if some dipshit commander orders the marines or CANG to actually open fire on US civilians, I really do think that the E4 mafia might have something to say about that, and that the commissioned officers and cops and ICE fascists might very quickly find themselves staring down the barrels of the deployed troops.

            Put another way: if active duty troops are ordered to fire on unarmed protesters, I would not at all be shocked if the enlisted and noncoms refuse the orders and mutiny, up to and including fragging the officers who gave the orders if they keep pushing.

            Orangeboi et al seem to think the troops are robots. They’re absolutely not.

      • MDCCCLV@lemmy.caEnglish
        0·
        3 months ago

        Police rules of engagement is shockingly 0, cops kill anyone for any reason if they perceive even the slightest chance of a threat to themselves. The military has a rigorous 5-6 steps for using increasing amounts of violence from shouting to actually firing.

  • flandish@lemmy.world
    0·
    3 months ago

    good start, recognizing that you ARE pawns. Always were. Next step: being strong enough to quit and deal with the court martial.

    • gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world
      0·
      3 months ago

      being strong enough to quit refuse unlawful orders and use your own common sense and basic decency to resolve conflicts in the field and deal with the court martial.

      • flandish@lemmy.world
        0·
        3 months ago

        if they had decency and basic sense they would not have volunteered in the first place. The trick now is to grow what little incipient hatred they have into a consciousness and recognition that they are being abused because of their class.

          • flandish@lemmy.world
            0·
            3 months ago

            I think it is, in the modern era, completely used to bolster corporate profits, destroy lives, spread violent hegemony and exploit the working class all over. So. Yeah.

            Our US nation is not the “world police” and the members who wish to leave need help and support in getting out. While they acknowledge they were actually and really brainwashed through professional propagandist workflows.

            The ones that rock Punisher logos and “Terrorist hunting permits” and “Don’t tread on me” flags on their F250s need to be ignored at all points in the day. They are already too far gone.

        • brygphilomena@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          0·
          3 months ago

          Military recruitment is actually really insidious. They actively target low income areas with the promise of paying for college. They find people who they can convince, maybe rightly so, that they have no other option if they want to leave their impoverished life. People who live in a place where there are no jobs. Kids who are living in houses that struggle to put food on the table.

          Whether it’s right or wrong. A lot of those soldiers may genuinely feel like they had no other choice but to sign up.

          A lot of these soldiers are going to be late teens and early 20s. Essentially kids.

          • kent_eh@lemmy.caEnglish
            0·
            3 months ago

            Military recruitment is actually really insidious. They actively target low income areas

            There is a reason the military (in multiple countries) has been called the “employer of last resort”.

            They’re always recruiting, and will take almost anyone who can’t find any other job.

          • flandish@lemmy.world
            0·
            3 months ago

            For sure! Help those simple minded kids get out when they get the slightest smell of “this ain’t right.”

            Remind them all that THIS is not worth a lifetime of regret even if it does mean you can preboard your delta flight back to FL to see your grandkids.

              • flandish@lemmy.world
                0·
                3 months ago

                I suppose that was indeed a little harsh and reactionary of me. They are, indeed, working class people. I may not respect their choice, or the system that exploits them, and the ones that “push back” can go fuck themselves.

                But you are right. Compassion for those “waking up” is important!

                Thanks for the link!

    • NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io
      0·
      3 months ago

      Next step: being strong enough to quit and deal with the court martial.

      Or mutiny, that’s always nice in a revolution.

      • teft@lemmy.world
        0·
        3 months ago

        Believe it or not the word is actually spelled Madone. It’s the italian way of saying Madonna, Mother of Mary. Italian americans mangle the d to sound closer to an r.

        • Logi@lemmy.world
          0·
          3 months ago

          I’m sat here in Italy wondering che cazzo you’re talking about until I reached the word “Americans”. Because of course you were talking about Americans.

          • teft@lemmy.world
            0·
            3 months ago

            Yeah, italian americans bastardized a bunch of italian words. I have to check my pronunciation in colombia when i talk to the italian shopkeeper near me because he has one way of saying the word. I have another. and the colombians have a third. It can be confusing at times.

  • db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    0·
    3 months ago

    A lot of revolutions begun by the rank&file turning against the hated police, just sayin’.

    Imagine how the chickenshit ICE will act if the soldiers start opposing them too. Not so easy to bully someone armed and their friends.

    • Gordon Calhoun@lemmy.world
      0·
      3 months ago

      They are doing something. Morale and the degree of willingness to carry out orders is huge. Without moral and emotional buy-in from the technicians in the field performing the actual operation, the effectiveness of a task force, no matter how well equipped and trained, is severely diminished. Leadership is going to have a hard time keeping them engaged, especially if leadership itself is feeling the exact same reluctance and disgust.

      What you’re asking for is an outright mutiny and that’s not going to happen. Dragging of feet and forgetting certain details of certain orders is the soft mutiny, or malicious compliance, you can hope for, civilian. Armies make or break revolutions based on how much they’re willing to step aside to let the civilian dissidents get their way.

    • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
      0·
      3 months ago

      They haven’t been ordered to do something patently illegal as of yet.
      Disobeying an order can carry a sharp penalty for soldiers and it’s frankly not worth the risk when the dubious order is to guard a federal building from people who pose no threat.

      You want the military to strongly resist illegal orders, but having the military decide policy is a dangerous line to cross.

    • teft@lemmy.world
      0·
      3 months ago

      Or you can stay in the service and be a sabot in the wheels. Being a shitty soldier will do more to hurt the fascist service than leaving it. Trust me, i was a shitty soldier.

        • teft@lemmy.world
          0·
          3 months ago

          Well that would be treason which i’m not advocating for.

          Just being slow and fat fingering things are not traitorous things.

          Treason is punishable by the death penalty so keep that in mind. Especially with who is in charge currently.

          • grue@lemmy.world
            0·
            3 months ago

            You seem to be confused. Obeying the fascist illegal orders is the treasonous act.

            • Initiateofthevoid@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
              0·
              3 months ago

              Disobeying unconstitutional orders is not treason, it’s patriotism.

              Also being a mole and letting resistance groups know what’s going on

              But that is the literal definition of treason.

            • teft@lemmy.world
              0·
              3 months ago

              I’m not confused. A soldier has to walk a fine line on what they can legally do. I won’t advocate for soldiers to do illegal things. I will advocate for soldiers to disobey illegal orders and to be a shitbag for any work details they think are undemocratic. Until we’re in a full blown civil war it’s better to lie low than get kicked out of the service from spying.

            • andrewta@lemmy.world
              0·
              3 months ago

              If you ignore how laws are written and how the world works then yeah you’d be correct.

              In the real world teft is correct

          • StonerCowboy@lemm.ee
            0·
            3 months ago

            Uhhh obeying the orders of a fascist traitor is treason…so no them rising up and fighting against such shit orders is not treason but their oath to the constitution and its people.

            • teft@lemmy.world
              0·
              3 months ago

              They haven’t been given illegal orders yet. And i’ve already said that they should disobey illegal orders. All soldiers are given classes on lawful orders and which orders should and shouldn’t be obeyed. If they “rise up” as you say they will just be courtmartialed and discharged at best or executed at worst.

              This is the real world not some fantasy that some of you seem to be living in. I was a soldier and i was deployed to a war i didn’t agree with. I understand what these soldiers are feeling.

              • StonerCowboy@lemm.ee
                0·
                3 months ago

                I was in the military myself 2009-2013

                This is an illegal order you fucking piece of shit traitor. We swear an oath to the constitution.

                TRUMP is a seditionous traitor so anything he says or does is an illegal order. The military should have had the balls to nut up and say no and arrest his ass as he is a domestic terrorist.

                But go on keep defending the Marines on AMERICAN soil.

                You are a traitor and when war breaks out I hope you meet your maker.

                • teft@lemmy.world
                  0·
                  3 months ago

                  Being ordered to an area isn’t illegal. Being ordered to shoot civilians is. Learn the distinction, clown. I’m not a traitor nor do i support the orange idiot.

      • Kalothar@lemmy.ca
        0·
        3 months ago

        Also there is no leaving the military, it is illegal by the very definition and you will go to military prison

        • nfh@lemmy.world
          0·
          3 months ago

          Not in the US, we don’t have compulsory service, and people leave legally all the time. Letting their enlistment expire is a way to leave, they could also get discharged for medical reasons, though maybe that’s not something to plan on. There are others, but I’m not sure how advisable any of them are.

  • TomMasz@lemmy.worldEnglish
    0·
    3 months ago

    They’re unhappy, but they’ll do as they’re told. They’ve been trained that way. Without that training, chaos would result.

    • TomMasz@lemmy.worldEnglish
      0·
      3 months ago

      That’s how the military works. If a unit doesn’t work together and do as commanded, soldiers die. They may feel bad about what they’re doing, but their training will override that. They may suffer from PTSD in the future, of course.

  • Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pubEnglish
    0·
    3 months ago

    Parade starts, all going textbook, rioters get into the fray, national guardsmen take up defensive positions, then the more conflicted national guardsmen are like nah and back off and some of the less ones are peer pressured into it, then the police force gets into it with both sides, then the rioters quell the police, and then all eyes turn to the man himself…

    God, I don’t ask for much, but, just this once maybe?