Mazda recently surprised customers by requiring them to sign up for a subscription in order to keep certain services. Now, notable right-to-repair advocate Louis Rossmann is calling out the brand.
It’s important to clarify that there are two very different types of remote start we’re talking about here. The first type is the one many people are familiar with where you use the key fob to start the vehicle. The second method involves using another device like a smartphone to start the car. In the latter, connected services do the heavy lifting.
Transition to paid services
What is wild is that Mazda used to offer the first option on the fob. Now, it only offers the second kind, where one starts the car via phone through its connected services for a $10 monthly subscription, which comes to $120 a year. Rossmann points out that one individual, Brandon Rorthweiler, developed a workaround in 2023 to enable remote start without Mazda’s subscription fees.
However, according to Ars Technica, Mazda filed a DMCA takedown notice to kill that open-source project. The company claimed it contained code that violated “[Mazda’s] copyright ownership” and used “certain Mazda information, including proprietary API information.”
Why does the car need an internet connection? Rather get a car from 2005-2010 that doesn’t connect to the internet, more have a stupid subscription.
Preach. Got a benz from 2009 that has all the features I want (heated seats, automatic climate control, rain sensor, etc) and none of the things I don’t want (remote connectivity, spyware, subscriptions).
Beginnt dein Name mit p?
Yep, I got a very basic trim 2010-2015 car. I think it’s about as new as you can get without really bad enshitification. The upper trims even had some of the gimmicks and techy stuff. I loath to think if the day this car dies. I may only ride my bike from that point on.
Imagine a world where the laws are literally used to opress you!
Now open your eyes.
Narrator:
their eyes were open the whole time
Subscription services or software restricted features for cars should just be outlawed entirely.
Nobody likes these, if someone is willing to deal with a subscription product then they can do that aftermarket. The car itself should never come with something that will require recurring payments.
Nobody likes these
Shareholders love them
I think I can speak for most Americans (and as someone who owns stocks) fuck the shareholders.
I bought a bit of BP shortly after the oil spill.
I was hoping to lose it all, but had the feeling I’d end up making money. I did make money.
All those shareholders should have been fucked.
You are the reason they didn’t lose it all.
Yeah, if not for me the government would have responded appropriately and bankrupted the company.
Exactly! I’m glad you understand.
You’re the problem. You get that, right?
how else are people supposed to avoid money losing value? bonds?
There’s socially responsible ETFs that track stock indexes but exclude companies like oil and gas companies. The return isn’t as high, but at least you’re not giving money to Big Oil.
I’m conflicted. On one hand, I’m a shareholder due to broad market investments in my 401k. On the other hand, I’m a consumer.
On net, screw this nonsense, just make good products and the recurring revenue will happen due to happy customers.
Should they though? The average lifespan of a car is 12 years. Even if they got someone to pay the subscription the entire time, that’s like 5% of the value of the car, spread over a length of time that makes it almost worthless. They could more easily charge an extra 1500 for the car, which is more money and it’s money they get now and isn’t picked apart by inflation.
It’s not especially good financially in the short or long term and is harmful to the brand image and customer loyalty.
Even if they got someone to pay the subscription the entire time, that’s like 5% of the value of the car, spread over a length of time that makes it almost worthless.
It’s a revenue stream you can collect after the vehicle is sold. Continuous cash flow means long term revenue stability for the business.
And its the introduction of a model that can scale. Once you’ve got someone’s account information, you can sell them more shit (or just sell their data to advertisers). This is just the tip of the spear. Tesla, BMW, and Mercedes are all experimenting with Vehicle as a Service product models.
Investors love the possibility of revenue growth, and these programs promise the possibility of high margin after market sales for the life of the vehicle.
harmful to the brand image and customer loyalty
Not when everyone is doing it
Shareholders love lootboxes too.
And one party autocracy.
Shareholders can get fucked. They’re making the world a worse place daily.
I think it’s fair if Mazda has to operate a server to enable it, but I think Mazda should have to pay car owners to allow them to connect the car to a mobile network, especially for operating their spyware/telemetry.
Pear to pear multiplayer games work without a server,
Why can’t they install some server on a seperate non critical board that handles those functions locally
I think it’s fair if Mazda has to operate a server to enable it
No. Either you support it for a few decades or let the consumer switch to a different service.
Option 3 take the stop killing games approach and grant the user the server back end when they stop supporting it themselves so users can host it themselves
That too
With your way, now everyone has to pay for the subscription service of remote starting, even those who would never use it and just want to use their keyfob, your idea is worse
Just like every feature on every car?
What the fuck are you talking about.
There are at the very least trim levels and usually a bunch if options so you literally don’t have to pay for things you don’t want/need
So require an upfront cost for the service.
I shall point you to my original comment
As long as they give me a way to run my own server for free, I agree with you.
They can literally just run a server locally on the car itself on a seperate non critical board that handles the functions locally
Well it’s double shit if you can’t get the remote start on a FOB now. Fuck Mazda for that bullshit.
Completely agree. I use the fob.
OK, they can add $1 to the price of the car for a lifetime subscription (and no the load probably will never add up to that).
You still have to pay for the cell service to connect the car. That’s going to cost a whole lot more than $1
A car is is multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars and a 3g, low data IoT sim card is less than $100.
A car is is multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars
Fucking what?
This is the equivalent of “I mean, it’s one banana, Michael. What could it cost? 10 dollars?”
Most of us aren’t buying lambos.
But not that much more.
A consumer mobile connection is about $30 a month. A car company could get it cheaper, not just by buying in bulk, but also because by not needing that much bandwidth for their connection.
I think it’s fair if Mazda has to operate a server to enable it
Do they? Why can’t the 2 devices communicate directly?
…because something needs to check you’ve paid your subscription. A man in the middle.
The car itself should never come with something that will require recurring payments.
Cars already do. Satellite radio has been a thing for decades now. I’ve never used it. Never felt the desire to use it. I haven’t even taken the free trial. I’m less annoyed that it exists, and more annoyed that I’m forever fated to receive unsolicited junk mail for this feature that I have to unceremoniously dump in the recycling bin every couple weeks.
As for the remote start, yeah, it’s kinda bullshit that they’ve removed the more permanent, older version of a feature to replace it with something out of the owners’ control. If anything, it should exist in parallel with the key fob button, not replace it entirely. I’m less concerned about the fact that it’s a subscription than I am about the prospect of that feature dropping support down the road with no recourse for the owner.
I haven’t even taken the free trial.
- Download this app:
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.siriusxm.dealer
-
If you don’t have the means of faking your location with root (not through developer settings), drive to, like, any nearby car dealership.
-
Open the app, tap the “Enter Radio ID” button, and… do that.
-
Profit!
No sign-up or account required. You will have full service for 3 months.
You can repeat this process indefinitely. It has worked for years. They do not care.
I’m forever fated to receive unsolicited junk mail for this feature that I have to unceremoniously dump in the recycling bin every couple weeks.
Imagining a future in which I have to tell my YouTube integrated car company that I don’t want to sign up for their music service every time I start my car.
Imagine if you lived in a country where a simple note taped to your mailbox would eliminate all junk mail.
Where would that be?
The Netherlands, at least.
Does it work out for you? I’m German, and in theory the sticker has to be respected here too, but in my experience a lot of junk mail bets on me being too lazy to sue them.
Your SiriusXM subscription doesn’t go to the manufacturer of the car. This is what they referred to as aftermarket subscriptions in their comment. It isn’t any different than if I subscribe to spotify Snr then connect my phone to the car to use it.
SiriusXM does revenue share with auto companies.) Old article, but I’m too lazy to dig through a financial report or find something newer.
Fair enough but I still view it differently than being locked out of using actual OEM features of the car. I do find this unsurprising though based on the metric fuckton of spam you get from SiriusXM after buying any new or used car from a legit dealer.
Yea, that is worse than eWaste, in my opinion. Hope EU does not let this slide for far longer… It should be illegal to ask for subscriptions for something that is a one time cost for the manufacturer.
Hope EU does not let this slide for far longer…
You’re out of luck with the remote start feature. Remote start is not allowed in the EU because it is unnecessary wear and tear on the engine, a waste of fuel and adds to air pollution.
Before my inbox explodes, I understand there are places that get unbelievably cold, and warming the car before the fragile human gets in is preferable, nevertheless, cars warm up faster and more economically when driven.
None of those reasons apply to electric cars, though. What’s their stance on that?
I have no clue. However, turning a heater on is not the same as starting an engine.
I give it another 10 years before car makers just fucking give up on fighting this kind of thing.
It’s gonna be a rough 10 years though
The shitty thing is that if margins are high enough only a very small minority of owners need to subscribe in order for them to break even and then we get stuck with it for eternity like SiriusXM being implanted into practically everything.
And of course there’s no way to just ‘opt out’ of the hardware via trim levels. Shitty industry in general
Yes, capitalism is horrible bullshit that we all must suffer through (for now). No argument there.
I mentioned this elsewhere, but I believe that within the next decade, car companies are just going to have to deal with the fact that a lot of very intelligent (and independent) software developers are able to work around their proprietary crap. Currently, they’re fighting it rather a lot, but that fight can only be sustained for so long before it becomes unprofitable for the corporations.
I hope you are right!
Damn, I wish I knew about this workaround before the takedown, I know someone who could benefit from it
I’ll clone this, thanks!
Also, lol, RUN DMCA
STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM!
I would download a car
Welcome to Night City.
Wait… Even if users don’t pay for this, their car still comes a WWAN module that is hardwired to their ignition. Yes, I realize it’s more likely bolted on to the infotainment system and/or the car’s RTOS, but it’s still baked in.
Depends on the manufacturer’s implementation, but yeah in recent years they’ve made it really difficult if not impossible to remove
Some models are as easy as removing a fuse or unplugging an optional component from the infotainment system. So a “quick” 1-hour process can remove that noise from the car.
But I really shouldn’t have to rip apart my car just to remove spyware and nagware.
I might regret not searching about this before running my mouth here, but I would assume most automotive manufacturers, in 2024, are soldering the wwan modules onto the main board of the infotainment system for cost, and to prevent user removal of their subscription vector.
I would also assume most manufacturers who are converting standard automotive features into paid subscription services that dubiously rely on SaaS backends, are NOT also designing isolated architectures that separate the IoT infotainment system from the car’s critical systems like drive control, transmission, brakes, etc. I’m guessing most at least have CAN bus connections linking them together.
But I don’t know enough about cars and automotive systems to even pretend being knowledgeable. So, if anyone here is actually well versed on this subject (and not just searching forums before replying to me), please tell me I’m wrong, and how so.
Seriously, I want to be wrong about this.
Aftermarket android head unit. As long as they are able to sort out the canbus features, it’s a thing. Unfortunately, it’s mainly the Chinese that do this.
I unintentionally fibbed, because one thing I do have a bit of experience with is aftermarket car stereos, including double-DIN android units.
Granted, I haven’t tried to install one in a 2024 car, but a lot of modern infotainment systems can’t just be ripped out and replaced with aftermarket unit and retain the car’s original functionality, if it can be removed at all without breaking, or removing your access to core functions, like climate control, etc.
Here’s a picture of the interior of one of the cars in question, a 2024 Mazda CX-90
You’re not popping a double DIN in there, and even if you did remove the screen, I’m betting the actual infotainment system boards are inside the dash somewhere installed in a mounted panel box, and they aren’t just going to pop out and be replaceable like your standard head unit.
Another photo, this one from the linked article:
Chinese aftermarket “designed to fit” android head units aren’t just double din universals.
actually well versed
That’s not me, I mostly searched forums and whatnot. My cars are all old enough that they don’t have this nonsense, and while I am handy with cars (do all my own maintenance), I’m not a mechanic, so I don’t have direct experience.
That said, at recent-ish Chevy cars w/ OnStar seem to have separate power and board for the wwan. I’ve watched a couple of these videos, and they seem pretty legit.
And with a quick check on Mazda, It seems you have two options:
- call customer support to have the TCU disabled - ends data collection and interaction, but the device can still be detected and communicated with
- remove the TCU - need to look up where it is, but for the '23 CX5, it’s below the center console; removal would turn on warning lights since it can’t find the device, but AFAIK it shouldn’t prevent vehicle registration or regular car operation
Again, I haven’t actually done this for any car, but it’s definitely something I’m going to be looking at before deciding on a make and model because I intend to remove whatever tracking BS they put in.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but OnStar is a 3rd party service, so it makes sense they would have a bolt-on device that can be removed without too much concern for the rest of the car’s functionality.
Also, isn’t a TCU something that controls a car’s drivetrain and transmission?
Edit: nevermind, just searched and found telematic control unit. Interesting, thanks for the info, I might look into this more if I have more time later.
I was considering a Mazda for my next car. Now I’m not.
I live in a place that gets fucking cold in the winter. If the normal fob option were always available and you get the option to pay for the convenience using an app, that would be one thing - though $10/month for that is ridiculous. But removing the fob option and locking this basic feature behind a subscription is exactly the sort of game I don’t want my vehicle to play with me.
Go ahead and sell roadside coverage, parts/repairs, batteries, get royalties from Sirius or whatever for extra cash flow. Make a great app that adds new convenient live-service features and is worth paying for, even. But fuck all these new subscription un-gimping games.
The subscriptions is free for the first few years so if you plan on trading it in definitely still worth it. While this does piss me off I still really like my mazda 2020
That’s called giving the drugs for free then taking it away so the addiction kicks in. Fuck that noise. Stop justifying it because it’s ‘free for now’
ISPs do this too…go look for new service, it’s a royal pain in the cock trying to find the actual cost before bullshit sales that can be taken away with minutes.
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Toyota, Mazda and Honda are the only makes I’ve really ever considered, or ever plan to consider. Of those 3, Honda has not gone that route yet as far as I know. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Subaru does the same thing, on my car it was free for three years then you pay or lose all connected features. That includes remote start, there is no way to start the car from the keyfob.
on my car it was free for three years
At least it sounds like they told you this. They probably aligned it with the most common lease period. Mazda just suddenly decided to make it a subscription.
Ideally it should be longer, like 8-10 years.
Honda collects and sells your driving history without your consent.
ALL of them do this. Literally all.
Is there a sim card buried in there somewhere that can be removed or is it soldered in, potted, etc?
… Or your car bricks if you remove it wouldn’t surprise me, regardless.
Could very well be an eSIM …
22 CRV here. Fob based remote start, no subscription for that or anything (though I would like to get the maps updates without payin) :(
I’ve used three remote start once in almost 3 years and I live in Wisconsin. It’s just really not that necessary. The car warms up quickly just driving.
Might as well throw Subarus into that list. They’re LGBT Toyotas lol
Subaru has their own set of issues
https://www.wbur.org/news/2022/02/23/subaru-right-to-repair-fight-cars
Toyota tried to push this exact same remote start subscription BS as well so cross them out too
They all are. Your only option would be to buy an older car without connected services and hope that you never need another one.
As much as I’m sure this answer will be hated, Tesla cars don’t require a subscription for basic remote services. What comes free is:
- traffic aware navigation updates
- OTA software updates mandated by recall
- phone app access
With the phone app there are zero regular features that require a monthly sub. Free things include:
- HVAC controls
- heated seats
- charging stats and start/stop chargin
- unlocking all doors, frunk and trunk
- even changing radio/SiriusXM stations
Tesla does have an optional monthly subscription but that gets you:
- streaming radio
- unlimited internet
- traffic density notations on nav maps
- satellite view in nav map
However the car operates just fine without any of that optional stuff and therefor there’s no mandatory fee for regular functionality.
Teslas unlimited Internet package is also super cheap at $100/year the last time I checked. Competitors are multiple times more expensive.
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Oh noes, somebody said something positive about Tesla! Get 'em boys!
Seriously though, I would like to see some legislation that made them offer connectivity free models. All the connectivity crap should be opt-in. If you don’t opt in they don’t connect the SIM card.
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Those things are free…for now….while they feel like it. There’s nothing stopping them from charging for that stuff when their stock price dips another 20%.
Those things are free…for now….while they feel like it. There’s nothing stopping them from charging for that stuff when their stock price dips another 20%.
They could change it for cars purchased in the future, but they can’t do what Mazda did and start charging for it now. So its either lifetime of free Standard connectivity, or at worst 8 years. These are part of the purchase agreement.
“All new Tesla vehicles ordered on or before July 20, 2022, will have Standard Connectivity features at no cost for the lifetime of the vehicle (excluding retrofits or upgrades required for any features or services externally supplied to the vehicle – e.g. telecommunications network). As additional features and services become available in the future, you will have the opportunity to upgrade your connectivity plan.”
I still don’t understand how that stops them from charging a subscription when their stock drops a bit more.
Contract law.
You know that “Terms and Conditions” you agree to all the time that binds you to things. It binds them too to those terms. The terms I posted above were what both car buyers and Tesla agreed to at the time of purchase.
The same courts that continue to allow the sale of “Full Self Driving”? You have a lot of faith in a system that has aggressively and repeatedly shown that it does not care about you.
I was planning on going electric with my next vehicle and I’m really hoping they force all the Chinese brands to disconnect them for national security or whatever. Just that will make the special import tax worth it.
I’m also kind of pissed at most car companies anyways, they have been dragging their feet when it comes to climate change. At least Byd is trying to offer cheap evs even if it’s to fuck with our economy.
Don’t know if you can guarantee they’re disconnected.
It took me 6 months to find a newer truck that had no Internet connectivity at all, and it was a royal PITA.
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Bets on which car company is going to be the first to EOL a server and brick a bunch of cars because some key feature is now “unsupported”?
Fisker, due to going bankrupt, arguably is the worst version of this right now
Something similar already happened when bicycle manufacturer VanMoof went under. I believe there was a workaround if you extracted your bike’s crypto keys before the servers went down but otherwise you were practically screwed.
It’s going to be Tesla, no question.
Enel is currently doing exactly that with their electric car chargers (the Juicebox), they’ve decided to pull out from the North American market and just shut down the servers. Like WTF, at least open-source the thing…
Nissan EOL’ed all their remote services blaming the 3G turn off. But yet my Leaf still connects to their services to report my driving location and driving style to them. They just turned off any features I could use. The 3G network in the UK will be up for quite a long time still and the 2G network will be around for longer, but they decided it’s a good excuse to save some server money on cars that are less than 10 years old.
“capitalism promotes healthy competition”
One of the biggest lie of all time.
Don’t forget innovation:
Hilariously, due to the teardrop shape, cars like this would be more aerodynamic if the shell was reversed.
Car companies do not want to innovate, because aerodynamic cars are “lame”, “soy”, etc.
People seem to have a low tolerance for what is considered weird when it comes to cars. That’s why most cars look the same. (Likely due to marketing and peer pressure)
Bar Atera, Ariel and a couple of other “unconventional” designs, and a handful of other concept cars. (Fuck the cybercrap, it’s the opposite of innovation)
TL;DR: cars could be way more aerodynamically efficient, but they aren’t, because people are peopleing.
There’s an empty spot at the bottom of that list and the author – who by the way is a monster – could have easily included Subaru.
But but, did you see the new “brand x brand x brand” product? The one where all the brands are owned by the same mega-corp and they just decided to smoosh their products together?
Innovation is dead and buried.
And Communism does so much “better”:
Why don’t you go to Cuba and ask how they’ve been able to do it for ~100 years. Those people have self-reliance down to a fucking science at this point, and the cars they have been keeping running for 60+ years are a perfect example of it. Imagine if they were actually allowed to participate in global commerce.
Having a car without internet connectivity would be a feature for privacy minded consumers
Usually this stuff is aftermarket. Sounds like a good business plan
…And the third third-party way where you can clap on clap off the engine! It was fairly convenient for people who lived out of the city or a comfy isolation room. In Mexico they will also banned the whistle on 3rd party option where the owner would come up with a special whistle pattern to turn on the engine. Engines in the US would become confused and dangerous on the 4rth of July due to the constant pops and whistle noises. That’s why we never saw those features here.
these car companies oh my god 🤦
An API is not copyrightable 🤔
Doesn’t stop companies from sending bogus DMCA takedowns to sites like GitHub.
There are no penalties for filling a bogus DMCA takedown and the legal cost for restoring the content falls on the victim of such a takedown: the DMCA legislation was designed exactly for it to be used as Mazda and many other use it against individuals and small companies who can’t spend thousands of dollars fighting bogus takedowns.
Why is there no big alternative hosted outside of the US where your DMCA does not apply?
There are other centralised code hosting services, for example Codeberg, but they are equally scared of any legal action even when it doesn’t directly apply.
There are penalties. They require proof of intent, however. So there are no penalties.
it seems everything is copyrightable if you are rich enough
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_LLC_v._Oracle_America,_Inc.
When two very rich entities argued about it it was determined you can’t copyright API.
Sure, but if you’re not rich and they sue you, you loose. No matter what, you’ll run out of money before successfully using that case.
I wasn’t disagreeing.
You’re assuming the law matters when a company can hire a team of lawyers and a solo dev can’t
I’m saying that when both sides have “infinite money” the “truth” can be found lol.
And if they want to attack car owners for doing what they want with their own car let’s go to court and see how fast their bullshit holds up.
Can’t wait for the inevitable “You don’t actually own the car, you just have a lifetime licence/lease to use the car”
That’s being normalized right now with video games. It’ll happen with other things soon enough too.
Frankly, for a lot of places, I don’t know that would be such a bad idea.
Now doing the same for land, that would be bad…
It could make sense if the price were reflecting of not owning the car. But we know damn well that you would pay full price as if the car was yours, but you just wouldn’t own it.
Oh well, “if buying isn’t owning…” Time to watch some Lockpicking Lawyer and trundle down to the car licensing lot and indulge in a little piracy >;-)
assholes
