Mazda recently surprised customers by requiring them to sign up for a subscription in order to keep certain services. Now, notable right-to-repair advocate Louis Rossmann is calling out the brand.
It’s important to clarify that there are two very different types of remote start we’re talking about here. The first type is the one many people are familiar with where you use the key fob to start the vehicle. The second method involves using another device like a smartphone to start the car. In the latter, connected services do the heavy lifting.
Transition to paid services
What is wild is that Mazda used to offer the first option on the fob. Now, it only offers the second kind, where one starts the car via phone through its connected services for a $10 monthly subscription, which comes to $120 a year. Rossmann points out that one individual, Brandon Rorthweiler, developed a workaround in 2023 to enable remote start without Mazda’s subscription fees.
However, according to Ars Technica, Mazda filed a DMCA takedown notice to kill that open-source project. The company claimed it contained code that violated “[Mazda’s] copyright ownership” and used “certain Mazda information, including proprietary API information.”
I don’t want anything smart in my car. I want a(n electric) engine that starts with a goddamned physical key that turns in a physical ignition. I want a volume knob that turns with a 1:1 ratio to the volume, ditto for climate control fan speed and temperature. The only thing I want my phone to do in conjunction with my cLilar is display the GPS.
I’m very excited for Apreras vehicles and hope they are successful. Their whole philosophy is hyper efficient vehicles and they are committed to open repair and bring consumer friendly.
They seem to be the only company making cars or attempting to make cars that makes a point to say that they will make it as easy as possible for you to control, repair and fix your own vehicle.
So true… for me personally, I’d love to have a battery EV vehicle, but i just want a regular vehicle with a battery powerplant. I don’t want a mobile IOT advertising surveillance DRM non-repairable planned-olsolescence mobile which is how so many new vehicles are designed.
I feel like this is what we all signed up for vs what they delivered.
Paid subscriptions to use features of the car you bought should be illegal
Reason number 29474929273 why we should ban internet access on cars
Reupload on Russian github.
We have one?
There’s always buying a third party remote service such as compustar for $700 (with install fees). The 1500 feet range from your key fob is included but you have to pay for the smartphone remote start (which can go on sale for $60 per year). Though these days, cars usually come with these features…
Edit: I meant that the $700 includes parts and labor costs
I remember a time when these features were just “standard” and car makers ad campaigns all around features just being standard, making the car more enticing than their competitors.
Now I dread the idea of getting a vehicle in the future because of bull shit like this.
But fuck the consumer amirite?
When did customers become consumers?
I’m more concerned with the transformations from customers to product.
“Hey, buy our expensive shit but also give us all your data so we can also sell it to other companies.”
I don’t think unlocking or starting your car from an app was ever standard
Y’know you’re likely correct and that’s totally my bad. I got confused about the remote start from the key fob. I can understand the remote start from the app being a paid thing for sure, like OnStar or specifically in my case the myChevrolet app.
I can understand the remote start from the app being a paid thing for sure.
But why would it need to be? The connectivity from the app is there already, it takes the manufacturer very little to handle the occasional web request. Especially if it can be done for free through third party software.
I mean, if the car needs a cellular subscription.
If it does then I wonder how a free tool could do it.
And if you do, indeed, need to pay for the car’s cellular then I hope features such as these are included.
Mazda recently surprised customers by requiring them to sign up for a subscription in order to keep certain services. Now, notable right-to-repair advocate Louis Rossmann is calling out the brand.
Services. Services!? What the actual fuck are you talking about!? Remote start isn’t a fucking service, it’s a feature, that they are trying to control through greed.
It’s a service if the only way to remote start the car, from the factory, is via a third party like 5G or LTE.
How are all those 3G car services faring these days? There were cars as recent as M.Y. 2019 that have reduced functionality or no functionality that was originally paid for.
What will it look like when LTE and 5G are inevitably shutdown and replaced?
It’s one thing to say I have to buy a new $1000 phone. They almost go obsolete in other ways, or suffer extensive physical damage before the cellular radios get turned off. It’s another thing to say that a feature of an $80,000 car is gone forever. Even if it’s just a creature-comfort like remote start or remote windows. It’s bullshit.
And then what? A $1500 credit off my next car of the same make for my ‘inconvenience’? Fuck right the fuck off. How much more does it cost to let a fob toggle it, from the factory floor?
And besides that who the fuck wants to dig out an app to start their car when you could just have a physical button right there on the key? Having voice assistants or routines start it for you is cool and all, but it is well known that those will be obsoleted long before the rest of the car.
Small correction here:
These services have nothing to do with 3g, 5g or wifi. All those are just communication protocols that phones use to connect to the internet, and neither your phone, nor their apps nor their servers will care a dime about those. Of 6g comes out or 5g disappears, nothing changes.
As long as the provider keeps their servers for your services up, the service is there. And that’s where the problem lies. It’s not the cost. A single 100 dollar / month server could easily cover all remote starts world wide, it really doesn’t require that much.
Decisions to take down these services and screw over paying customers are typically made my middle and upper management, to force people to buy their new crap
Yeah, it’s still crap. I’m not trying to defend these products requiring paid services, it’s shite and I would only use open sourced services, I’m just saying that the technology is a little different than you said
The problem is the cell modem in the car, which is hard to replace. Cars last a lot longer than phones do. When whatever network that the car uses shuts down, then you can’t remote start your car. That’s a marginal cost that the car company has to pay for.
I was wondering, what makes the modem that hard to replace?
I get that the embedded systems in cars are complex works of engineering, but I don’t see why there can’t be some sort of standardized physical interface akin to OBDII to be used to ‘upgrade’ the modem.
It’s possible, but it costs money to design the hardware so it’s accessible, it has to use a connector which has to be robust against vibrations (is m.2 robust?), then there needs to be a standardized protocol to communicate with the card. Does the car computer need to know how to authenticate against the cell network or does the card? Is it industry standardized or specific to the manufacturer? All kinds of things need to be designed and car manufacturers have no reason to invest in they.
Nothing, except right-to-repair, or rather the lack of it.
It could just use a standard USB or mini pci-e modem and make it super easy to replace. If the were concerned about unauthorized use, they could easily make it so that a key stored in the cars TPM is necessary for the modem to connect to the tower, making the modem a commodity field replaceable part.
But they choose not to. They choose to make a proprietary part that only works in their cars and is only manufactured by them. They make it so the car won’t recognize it if it isn’t activated by a dealer shop computer.
Then, when the technology it’s based on is obsoleted, either they decide to make a proprietary part to sell you and only they can install…or they say “Wow that sucks. I guess we could knock a few hundred off a new car for you then?”. More than likely, it’s the latter. You probably already had your car for a few years and the honeymoon phase is long past. You don’t even care if it gets a little ding or scratch anymore. They know that.
Or…now hear me out…they could’ve just been using RF fobs for remote start that’s point-to-point, instead of enshittifying fucking remote start by making it rely on a third-party.
But then they wouldn’t need you to install an app that needs a million fucking permissions. To start your car remotely. Something that a postage-stamp sized PCB has been doing since ET was in theaters the first time.
Support right-to-repair when it’s on your ballot. Auto manufacturers put a lot of money into lobbying against it every time. And it’s usually fear-based propaganda that isn’t grounded in reality at all. The fact is, they made the system this way, on purpose, to protect profits and for no other reason. Fuck them. Fuck them right in the tushie.
There’s another angle to this, too. If the cellular modem is easy to replace, it would also be easy to remove, cutting off one of the big reasons why the car manufacturers want it there: data that they can sell.
Which makes this whole topic even more frustrating because that connection is worthwhile for them to have even without the customer paying for the cellular subscription because they are selling the data but Mazda is still greedy enough to want an extra $120 a year for something that could have been included as an afterthought.
You just reminded me that’s it’s illegal to have a tracking device on someone’s car without their knowledge. If you buy a car second hand and they are tracking you , then that’s probably against the law.
The main benefit of having a remote start app is that you can use it from far away like when you’re inside of your workplace where a fob won’t work.
If the car uses 5g, ang 5g is no longer available, how do you connect to a server
This needs to be banned. In fact, “licenses” for things you buy should be outright banned entirely.
Yeah. Feel this is a slippery slope. First it’s supposedly luxury extras like heated seats and remote starts. Next something more critical when folks are habituated to the practice? Enpoopification all around.
…And the third third-party way where you can clap on clap off the engine! It was fairly convenient for people who lived out of the city or a comfy isolation room. In Mexico they will also banned the whistle on 3rd party option where the owner would come up with a special whistle pattern to turn on the engine. Engines in the US would become confused and dangerous on the 4rth of July due to the constant pops and whistle noises. That’s why we never saw those features here.
“capitalism promotes healthy competition”
And Communism does so much “better”:
Why don’t you go to Cuba and ask how they’ve been able to do it for ~100 years. Those people have self-reliance down to a fucking science at this point, and the cars they have been keeping running for 60+ years are a perfect example of it. Imagine if they were actually allowed to participate in global commerce.
Don’t forget innovation:
Hilariously, due to the teardrop shape, cars like this would be more aerodynamic if the shell was reversed.
Car companies do not want to innovate, because aerodynamic cars are “lame”, “soy”, etc.
People seem to have a low tolerance for what is considered weird when it comes to cars. That’s why most cars look the same. (Likely due to marketing and peer pressure)
Bar Atera, Ariel and a couple of other “unconventional” designs, and a handful of other concept cars. (Fuck the cybercrap, it’s the opposite of innovation)
TL;DR: cars could be way more aerodynamically efficient, but they aren’t, because people are peopleing.
There’s an empty spot at the bottom of that list and the author – who by the way is a monster – could have easily included Subaru.
But but, did you see the new “brand x brand x brand” product? The one where all the brands are owned by the same mega-corp and they just decided to smoosh their products together?
Innovation is dead and buried.
One of the biggest lie of all time.
Bets on which car company is going to be the first to EOL a server and brick a bunch of cars because some key feature is now “unsupported”?
Fisker, due to going bankrupt, arguably is the worst version of this right now
It’s going to be Tesla, no question.
Nissan EOL’ed all their remote services blaming the 3G turn off. But yet my Leaf still connects to their services to report my driving location and driving style to them. They just turned off any features I could use. The 3G network in the UK will be up for quite a long time still and the 2G network will be around for longer, but they decided it’s a good excuse to save some server money on cars that are less than 10 years old.
Enel is currently doing exactly that with their electric car chargers (the Juicebox), they’ve decided to pull out from the North American market and just shut down the servers. Like WTF, at least open-source the thing…
Something similar already happened when bicycle manufacturer VanMoof went under. I believe there was a workaround if you extracted your bike’s crypto keys before the servers went down but otherwise you were practically screwed.
assholes
these car companies oh my god 🤦
“you wouldn’t download a car” was prophetic
“Of course I would” has always been the response though.
So…who is making the open source car?
Edison Motors would be my bet.
That guy is doing some seriously cool open source shit on a HUGE scale (electric logging trucks). I’m sure once they perfect the process they will move into the car and truck market.
His media channels and shorts are always great, even if you have no knowledge or interest in the logging industry.
Can you link to the build instructions and CAD repo for the electric logging truck?
Did you bother to look into it at all? What you are asking doesn’t even make sense from a design standpoint.
Nobody asked for a car you can print.
The way they are building their electric truck is the smartest way. Using available, off-the-shelf parts that have proven reliability. Nobody is going to be using CAD to create custom parts. Reinventing the wheel is precisely the problem and Edison Motors is working to avoid those mistakes.
Also, they are taking design input/feedback at the consumer level right now, BEFORE they have a ‘completed’ product to purchase. This is as close to open source as you can get in my opinion.
You could literally buy the same parts out of a warehouse and build a logging truck yourself if you wanted to.
Or you can sit on the internet and complain without having any idea what you’re talking about.
If they’re using off the shelf parts and they include them in their open-source licensed CAD files, thats fine.
But, yes, CAD files are required, by definition, for open hardware projects. I said nothing about printing. CAD is needed for all types of manufacturing, even when using off the shelf standard parts like M3 bolts.
If they didn’t release CAD files and license them openly, this is not an open source project and its not worth contributing to.
I build open source hardware for a living btw, and ive built open hardware industrial machines. Don’t assume everyone you’re talking to on the Internet is sitting in an armchair without rolling up their sleeves in the shop. I’m legitimately looking for an open hardware car. Best ive found is OpenMotors Tabby. They’ve released their CAD files (which are licensed under CC BY-SA), but their documentation is terrible.
Here’s a link to help others https://openmotors.co/download
That doesn’t look like a car to me. I don’t even think they have a FOSS ICE afaict?
Are any of those open source?
It comes in parts and you can replicate them, isn’t that open source?
Nope. What makes if open source is that the designs are published and licensed using an open source license, such as CC BY-SA
Someone very rich who doesn’t feel the need to get arbitrarily richer.
So no one.
There are definitely open source-ish options. Google locost 7
I don’t think “ish” is a thing. Either the sources are provided openly under a libre license, or they are not.
What license does the locost 7 release their designs under?
Locost 7 is a generic name for replica Lotus/Caterham 7 type cars that are built by people in garages, there’s no centralised body beyond “The Book” the original design came from. As far as I’m aware the book’s author has defended the design in court as being too generic to be protectable (which presumably precludes their design being used as a basis to prosecute anyone building something similar).
Most of the cars are built custom to the donor vehicle, taking the original design as a basis, there’s 100s of variations online with drawings - none of them are going to be protectable and no-one’s really tried in the 30 odd years since the book came out. No-one’s published anything with a libre license, I’m not sure if there’d be any point.
If the author licenses the book under a creative commons or other libre license, its open source. If not, its not open source hardware.
If the author would just announce that the book is licensed openly, then it would liberate lots of other orgs to be able to include his work in their work. Otherwise this is a dead end for other open hardware manufacturers
An ethical billionaire?
Yea, no one is right.
I’d be cool with starting a car company for as little as $1M salary; I don’t even need equity, just a couple hundred mil to get it started
