Don’t you need a prescription for them? Of course they wouldn’t want shady online retailers selling controlled substances.
Maybe if they UK provided prescriptions to people in a timely manner, people wouldn’t resort to other means of getting their medical treatment.
A lot of these complaints seem to be issues that come with socialized healthcare.
Poorly organized socialized healthcare, sure.
Intentionally biased socialized medicine, too. Imagine if you had to wait 10 months for abortion prescriptions.
Great reasons the government shouldn’t be in charge of healthcare! Your options could change based on whatever party is in power
As opposed to private Healthcare where they’re guaranteed to screw you over.
As opposed to the US model of arbitrarily changing based on your employer, or whatever plans they choose to sponsor for you for a given year? Oh yeah, that’s in addition to whatever party’s in power tinkering with availability/access (look at mifepristone for an example)
What’s your point? “Your system isn’t perfect, reeeee!!!” Ok, and? How does this add anything, anything at all, to the conversation?
The conservative government is trying to underfund and undermine the NHS so that people do switch to private healthcare and they don’t have to pay for it any more. And then they claim it wasn’t their fault, as people chose to switch. You’re helping them.
Actually more like deliberately disassembled socialized healthcare to enrich corrupt peers of the government through contracts and eventually lower the standards so bad so the NHS can be saved through “privatisation”.
yes access to medical care in the us is never infringed upon
e.g. if you want a given medical procedure performed, there is no way for the state to stop you
Estrogen isn’t a controlled substance.
estrogen’s not a controlled substance tho
It is tho.
Yes you do, which they explicitly and deliberately make next to impossible to access through legitimate channels
Yes, but it’s a bit hard to get; even in countries that try to improve trans-care rather than reduce it.
There are just so many therapists; the waiting lists are sometimes simply closed because they stretch years.
For many people, these hormones mean the difference between a livable life and extreme dysphoria, depression and suicidality.
If they could get them on the regular way, they would. But the regular way is often full of problems. So some people have to fall back to just do it themself.
I even heard of doctors who do some medical checks under the counter to ensure everything is done as safe as possible (but aren’t able to prescribe hormones themself without prior psychotherapeutical indication)
So; your point would be valid in theory, but unfortunately for many trans-people, it’s the only way to get their possibly life-saving medication.
Yes, but it’s a bit hard to get;
Then that’s the problem to tackle. Buying black market drugs is not a reliable solution.
It’s a relief valve though. As someone who has suffered from unavailable care, black market drugs probably saved my life. I’m not terribly against adults being able to make such decisions on their own judgment.
well obviously people who buy black market drugs don’t have a better solution available. use some critical thinking, it won’t hurt you
Well obviously people using black market drugs are taking a huge health risk 'cos, well, it’s a black market… very unreliable due to its very nature. Use some critical thinking, it won’t hurt you.
Guess trans people can just kill themselves until we solved transphobia.
it’s more of a “legal gray area” market
How so? I’m assuming there’s a regulatory body that determines what’s legal and what’s not, and what requires prescription. That this body doesn’t seem to be working well/fast enough seems to be the main issue.
I don’t disagree with the point that it shouldn’t need to be this way.
But it is what it is; and it’s live saving medication that has to come from somewhere.
People are fighting to tackle the problem officially; but they also have to somehow live in the meantime.
Almost all trans people would prefer a prescription and medical supervision above having to pay themself and guesstimate the doses without proper bloodwork. But some just don’t have any alternatives.
And to be clear: I will always recommend people to try the official way first. local transpersons that asked me for advice all got a “I can help you get therapy; I can help you to skip therapy and go the indication route; I can reluctantly help you skip indication and go the informed-consent-route without psychotherapists but still medical supervision, even tho I really discourage that unless your transidentity is obvious since many years; but I will not help you to get DIY (without medical supervision) unless you tried the official approaches, sorry”.
But for some people, there is no other option than DIY. Getting a place for therapy can be really hard, and some countries have no alternative routes to get a prescription with medical supervision without going through years of therapy first.
(Btw, I don’t know how the laws are in the UK. I’m from germany. But the problem is the same everywhere. I got lucky to be able to get a prescription, tho; but I know a few people that weren’t)
In the us, estrogen is not a controlled substance, and not controlled as a steroid, T is.
Since when is this post about US? A lot of dangerous shit is legal there.
Good. People shouldn’t be ordering body altering chemicals randomly off the Internet.
This isn’t a big story, in fact its basic legal discourse and didn’t even come with a drug bust or actual crackdown.
If this story was about a website selling benzos and the comments were full of stay at home white women complaining about the suffering they would now endure having to be sober, people would be laughing at them, and worried about their need for this. Not completely identical but this kind of rage bait only works because of the group it points to.
Except transfem hormones are not a controlled substance, not addictive, purchased for therapeutic purposes and not for abuse, needed by a lot of people because of outdated/inefficient/underfunded healthcare systems.
So yeah, it’s completely like selling benzos except for all of the reasons it is not.
Not a controlled substance doesnt mean I should be allowed to purchase it without at least having a doctor opinion first. It has such a severe effect on your body that it should really be prescribed by a competent medical professionnal. If you think otherwise, you’re delusionnal.
Yeah they don’t want to hear anything like that. Just people thinking that this will be the final thing that makes them happy, so accessing it through any means is valid. And the people that thinks it looks good to support it because it’s their friends.
A member of their community literally telling them it’s not good won’t even get through anymore.
This mans actually fighting windmills in this thread I swear to god.
At this rate he might be applying to become a Terf Island Government Regulator probably
Honestly, yeah. Seems like I’m arguing against brick walls and it’s not like you actually have any power to do or change anything anyways so horribly pointless
Those medical professionals disagree
- There’s no medical professionals available.
- The medical professionals who are available can and have in the past deliberately sabotaged people’s treatment because of their personal beliefs.
- No one is getting hurt by hrt being available.
- If it has such a severe effect on the body why aren’t my boobs bigger?
No it’s a body altering drug that directly impacts sensitive hormones balances that our bodies use for regulation and development.
It’s still a life altering drug even if it’s not addictive. Your argument doesn’t make sense cause it’s got a huge impact if it can be bought by anyone with access to digital currency. And is it a lot of people? The trans community is supposedly only a fraction of a percent to a percent of the overall populace. People are suffering from the underfunded healthcare in much more dire ways than cosmetic medications.
Are we ok with people selling chemo medication and opioids through the Internet? People have pain and are dying of cancer and need the drugs too.
You are upset because of the community it impacts not the actual problems it represents.
Always lovely when people pull the “it’s a tiny percent of people so whatever happens to them doesn’t matter”. So are disabled people. So are people with rare illnesses.
But who do you think is even going after gender-affirming hormones in the first place? It’s an unbearable risk for everyone else but whatever happens to trans people without it doesn’t matter. Funny how that is…
It’s not that it doesn’t matter. I didn’t say that and you are projecting. It’s that, it doesn’t require allowing a free for all to access hormone manipulating drugs to handle and in a better world we should absolutely be going through legitimate channels instead of praising drug lords for supplying illegally on the internet.
But it’s something you want so it’s ok.
The trans community is not the greatest or the only victim in this world. It’s unfair but praising illegal drug sales is not correct.
The very first thing I showed you is that the legitimate channels are unusable.
But hey, it wouldn’t be the first time “illegal drug sales” are used as a pretext to attack undesirable populations.
Edit: Disregard my first here statement. Got you confused with someone else. Yes the healthcare system is fucked but it’s fucked for everyone and again this is not literally life saving like the way that blood thinners or anti-psychotics even would be.
You jumped to attack because you are ready to do that for people you view as entirely wrong even if I absolutely agree on other topics.
But also don’t compare trans people having trouble accessing hormonal supplements to marginalized groups being flooded with addictive drugs. Christ that is a comparison that certainly doesn’t fit.
…what part of the comparison you have issue with? That trans people are a marginalized group, or that what they are seeking is not nearly as harmful, yet authorities making an issue out of it regardless.
Who is being hurt by hrt being freely available?
You are imagining a spherical confused cis person in vacuum that’s getting hurt
This might be the stupidest comment I’ve seen on Lemmy yet. I think I need to document this somehow
No it’s not. We all know we have seen dumber stuff on the Internet unless you joined yesterday. But whatever.
“Life altering drug.”
Fucking all drugs are, that’s what drugs do???
There is not a lot of trans people so it’s okay to fuck them over.
Literally what is your point there?
“Uhh it’s only millions of people we are denying healthcare to and then criminalising when they want to get support themselves and not billions, rookie numbers.”
Cosmetic medication
So at the same time it’s very serious and dangerous but also just a stupid silly cosmetic thing?
The answer is that no, it’s not just a cosmetic thing, there is a mountain od evidence for proven therapeutic effects of hrt, these drugs save people’s lives.
If we let people sell fireworks online what’s stopping someone from selling a nuke??? Explain this leftists???
Clearly chemo needs a higher amount of expertise to prescribe and the treatment needs to be watched much more carefully, and estrogen clearly has less abuse potential than opioids.
You are upset because of the community it impacts not the actual problems it represents.
Ah yes, we all know trash girlfriend at lemmy dot world who loves the current fucked up UK healthcare system except for when it comes to trans people.
I am mad because that system is disproportionately hard on the community, I am mad because people like you love to dismiss our problems and suffering as frivolous without ever trying to first engage with our experiences.
For my whole life I’ve been living in less than great places in regards to trans healthcare, without being able to solve this problem myself, I would not be here.
Not all drugs but yeah that’s why you can’t just buyosy of them on the Internet.
I didn’t say the things you are thinking I said.
You have your problems of what you desire in life and so do the rest of us. Yeah it’s annoying that we live in the modern age where money and resources could buy you the body you want but you can’t get it but that’s true for people with worse disability than you and it’s a lot less fixable.
Everyone is suffering and you living your suffering has got the idea that yours is the most important which it is cause you are living it. Doesn’t mean that everything you do and support to achieve that is good. Sorry. It doesn’t.
We either live in a society where we try to help everyone and limit abuse potential for everyone or we let it be a free for all and we are clearly somewhere in the middle swinging back and forth, which means we are all fucked.
I understand your experiences and have lived them closer than you think as the Bi kid in a farming town that was bullied into multiple suicide attempts. But you don’t care. You want to be angry and you want to be right. As is tradition for humans.
I just don’t care to pretend otherwise. Things that make humans feel good about themselves are life savers regardless of what it is because it’s the only thing we crave. To feel good. Unfortunately that just isn’t life.
Don’t speak for the disabled here unless you’re one of us. I can buy hearing aids off Google as I well should be able to.
Can you buy Cochlear implants off the Internet to install yourself?
How about a corneal transplant?
Can I get myself new kidneys or my sister a new heart? Trust me they would be very useful for making a better life for us.A hearing aid is absolutely not in the same realm even if it’s part of the new technological advancements that we can use money to buy to alter our physical nature. But you know that this is a different thing. You are doing a bait and switch whataboutism to diminish the actual conversation of chemical drugs that alter body chemistry being sold without a permit and prescription to anyone with access to the internet.
It absolutely is in the same realm. Now if you wanted to compare surgery to surgery sure, but self administered medical devices can be compared to self administered medications. Now, prescription to prescription let’s talk contact lenses.
But ultimately I wouldn’t be so angry if they weren’t restricting every legitimate means as well. This is like if the government were to make me jump through years of hoops to get hearing aids and then block me from buying some off a grey market medical device website. Rather than making mainstream options more available they’re pushing people further towards sketchier options.
And here you are talking about homemade surgery when the topic of the day are pills and disability aids. All you have said in this thread is bait and switch.
Except that the UK is also obstructing proper avenues to get them too.
Transgender patients facing a years-long wait for NHS gender care are being handed a “death sentence”, says the mum of a trans woman who took her own life.
Data obtained by Newsnight and analysed by the BBC found it would take 10 years to clear the backlog of people waiting for first appointments in gender care.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-68602939
Mind you that gender affirming treatment can be the difference between life and death for trans people. So, they can’t rely on public services, and they can’t take matters into their own hands. So, the idea here is “be rich or don’t be trans”?
Oh fuck off. That’s not a death sentence. That’s hyperbole if ever there was. It’s a disappointment. Life is full of them.
Suicide is prevalent outside of the LGBTQ community as well. I understand that it comes with a higher rate likely from bullying but I’m sure there are other groups that also have high suicide rates if we broke them down the same way.
The answer is be rich or don’t be anything. Lack of cancer treatment, lack of dental treatment, lack of preventative care. All of those are legitimate issues as well.
Yes, if you aren’t rich you will likely suffer from the things you want but can’t do.Spoken as someone who haven’t ever bothered to talk to trans people or read about them a single day of your life. Consistently studies and accounts from transgender people indicate that gender transition diminishes the rates of suicide and suicidal ideation.
But it shows how little you know that the best you have to say is “sometimes life sucks for other people too”. Guess what, this isn’t about you. No idea why you are even so invested in the risks and needs related to something that has nothing to do with you. Because clearly it isn’t out of care for other people.
Yeah and so does eating healthier, getting more money, better health, access to transportation, etc… the list of things that help stop suicide is whatever people are wanting to feel better about their life and I get that there is a community that wants these things.
I just can’t believe it’s at a point of praising illegal sales of drugs.
And don’t pretend you know me. You don’t. Cause you are wrong about a lot of what you think about me and it’s easier to assume the person I am than accept that you are just making shit up to feel better about your side.
I’m against the narcissistic vibe of it’s good as long as you get what you specifically want. I want rules and a helpful society not people arguing that them doing things by their own vested interest are what’s best. I care because I have to live with the rest of you as much as you have to live with me and everyone else. I’m sorry you feel that’s unfair and that currently it is unfair in how treatment is accessible but life is very very unfair.
Yikes. I’m gonna order some weed and estrogen over the internet, inject them both while thinking of how caustic your brain is.
Wow I get to live in your brain instead of just you moving on with your life? I hope the rent is cheap I can’t afford more.
You are right, I don’t know you. But if you are so good-hearted deep inside, why would you call trans people narcissistic for trying to address the unfairness of life by their own means?
Yet for all you say of me not knowing you, you don’t seem to be trying to understand anyone else either. All you have to show are the shallowest platitudes you can think of.
You are right, life is unfair. Which is exactly why you can’t count on governments providing what you need, why people might need to figure it out on their own. In light of that, is it really so shocking that people may resort to illegal means? Yet even that is being taken away.
You don’t seem to have a drop of sympathy for that, you don’t know or care about what severe gender dysphoria may be like, you talk of it as if it was merely denying them a luxury. No, this is not the sort of thing that may be alleviated treated by “eating healthier” or “access to transportation”.
Frankly, all this pearl-clutching about illegality and regulation sounds like something from someone who believes society is far more ideal than it really is. Or is your point just “get fucked when you are told to”? Because that’s the only way I can see conciliating the inherent unfairness of life with strict adherence to the rules.
So it has to be a death sentence before anything should be done about it?
Yes, other groups and communities might have similar suicide rates and life is hard for them too, but this isn’t about them? So what is their relevance in this argument exactly? They should be helped too not seemingly pitted against the LGBTQ community like this is a them or us thing.
Agree, those other issues are legitimate as well, and access to those should be improved. But that can be accomplished along with allowing better access to gender affirming medication.
Open access on the Internet to anyone at random does not equal productive or helpful societal care is my point.
It’s a drug lord selling their stock.
But because it confirms a group that wants easier access it becomes an argument about morals in a way that it shouldn’t be is exactly my point.
Alternative title:
U.K. makes Google remove search results going to illegal prescription drug website
I seen pinknews described as a leftie dailymail.
estrogen is not a controlled substance tho, so not really “illegal”, it’s more of a gray legal area
Good thing I never called it illegal then (:
I only called a website selling prescription drugs without a permit illegal.
It is in the UK it’s prescription only other than a very low dose, in which case it’s pharmacy only following consultation with the pharmacist… these are controlled drugs under UK law
Fucking horseshit.
These drugs aren’t dangerous, and for those that seek them it’s often life saving. This isn’t “illegal prescriptions” like oxy for a high that fuels drug trade. Seriously, there is no gain for humanity by making life MORE difficult for trans folk. Especially in the UK where the wait list for a prescription is literally YEARS long.
It’s super duper disengenerous to call these illegal drug. Their medicine for people with gender dysphoria, and further restricting their access to it is nothing short of cruelty.
Calm down and re read my post, I said that the website selling prescription drugs without a prescription is illegal.
Which ignores the context that getting them with a prescription is becoming a functional immposiblity for trans people in the UK. I support the concept that prescription drugs should not be for sale, BUT it is disengenerous that the prescription process is arbitrarily years long and constantly under attack.
My trans friend who lives in the UK has been forced to get her medication from the web because she has been on a waiting list to get a prescription for over three years now! She actively wants someone with a medical degree involved in her care, but that’s literally immposible for her, despite her well paying job. It’s easy enough to say “don’t break the law” while ignoring the people harmed.
No one gives a shit about your opinion. Drugs are controlled for many reasons. And if some drug is controlled, then any web site selling them without a prescription is breaking a law.
Forgetting that the law does not equal morality, and that these harmless medications are blocked from a 3+ years long wait list to get legally. No trans person WANTS to use the web for their healthcare, they WANT to have access to regular blood panels and those holding degrees, but in the UK that is simply not possible due to arbitrary meaningless political attacks.
Take your “just follow the law” argument all the way to legalized slavery and realize how ignorant, privileged and foolish you sound.
- make selling medication illegal because terf island
- block website because selling medication
“well they had to block it it was illegal”
These are two different points.
-
The government decided to make a drug require a prescription. Wheather this is good or bad in this specific case, I don’t know.
-
A website is selling said drug without needing a prescription to the citizens in the same country. The government tries to stop it and make it follow the rules. This is good as the government has not verified what they are selling and can’t aproove a side channel bypassing their own rules.
I get people being pissed at 1, but not doing 2 would be far worse than changing 1.
Alternative title:
U.K. makes Google remove search results going to illegal prescription drug website
is a comment that attempts to resolve the people in power of any wrongdoing over the situation
and no, you can’t consider the two events in complete isolation from one another because they’re both targeting the same end goal
What are you talking about?
I am trying to focus the attention on the most effective target, namely the reason why Google was requested to take action in the first place.
Focus your energy on the reason as to why the drugs are prescrption and deal with that problem, once that is done the website issues will solve itself.
Is the most effective target not to just find another place to buy it illegally? Certainly more realistic that to have any affect in politics.
That depends on the outcome you want, if you want to legalize it, then it is less effective than protesting and informing the public about it.
If you just want to get it for yourself then you are right.
I used to think LGBT legal issues were just a case of speading information, but my hope in conversation is rock bottom.
This appears to be a harmful action that can be more easily attributed to malice rather than protection. I expect some protests will contain violence in return.
You’re missing 1.5: Make it impossible for people who every professional medical association of good repute says said medication help, get the medication by prescription.
That is another issue, if the medical professional has excellent reputation and can prove and explain the need for the drugs then there is a need to figure out why their recommendations are not followed and what steps are needed to rectify that.
If however the medical professional only has a good reputation in fringe/pseudo science circles, then the government should not just run ahead with their recommendations, untill there is solid evidence for their claims.
It’s because they’re transphobic Watson. The whole god damned island hates trans people
This is not about “fringe science.” Or, rather, it actually is; the fringe science being the evidence that the government is using for what they’re doing to trans people.
The attacks on trans people in the UK are so insane that the government is now claiming, with a straight face, that people under the age of 25 are not capable of making medical decisions about their own bodies. That’s kind of quackery that is being employed to justify these decisions.
The global medical community wholeheartedly agrees that puberty blockers and HRT are good and safe treatments. There is no meaningful medical consensus that says otherwise. However it is now almost impossible to actually get prescriptions for these drugs in the UK in anything short of a years long timeframe, which in the case of puberty blockers effectively makes it impossible to get them at all, since for obvious reasons they’re somewhat time sensitive. People are turning to illegal sources because they are being shut out from the legal ones.
And no, the fact that puberty blockers and hormone replacement have some potential side effects is not a good reason to ban them (or restrict them so severely that they might as well be banned). Aspirin and paracetamol have potential side effects. Every drug does. In a functional society, the solution is to have doctors monitor the patient’s usage, and adjust dosages or switch to different drugs if problems arise. That’s how medicine works in the modern world. Carving out a specific exclusion to that just for trans people is bigotry, plain and simple.
To steal a line, if any anti-depressant were as successful as HRT at treating depression, it would be hailed as a miracle. The only “controversy” over these drugs is manufactured by regressive idiots who hate and fear what they don’t understand.
I never called trans medicine fringe or pseudo science, I just said that the government should listen to the mainstream medical field.
Fringe science in general needs to mature into mainstream science before governments can start dumping money on it.
I don’t believe that it is wrong to demand evidence of science, I thought that was the entire point of science.
- The government decided to make a drug require a prescription. Wheather this is good or bad in this specific case, I don’t know.
All drug? If so, this is bad.
-
Reminds me of the classic
- Can’t have minorities as slaves anymore.
- Make harmless drugs used by said minorities illegal.
- Make for-profit prisons.
- Jail minorities for using harmless drugs and make them work for free in prison.
“it’s not slavery, it’s just punishment which doesn’t burden the taxpayer”
I suspect you are talking about weed, and I agree that it should be just as legal as tobacco.
I am in favour of a general legalization of recreational drugs, preferably through a state owned monopoly like the Swedish alcohol monopoly.
Tax it like tobacco or alcohol, the government would get a shitload of taxes to deal with issues stemming from abuse, while also creating a LOT of new jobs.
I would even like to see the stores have a certified counselor on staff who is trained to advice and guide customers toward the right experience they want, and an addiction specialist who are available to help people get the help they want to get clean.
Having a system like this would enable the government to guarantee that the drugs they sell are clean and relatively safe for consumption, thus reducing the need for healthcare, it would also probably almost stop the sharing of needles, further reducing the need for healthcare.
It would be one of the most effective ways to get rid of gangs, not only would it almost wipe out their biggest income, but it would also provide more jobs for former gang members, giving them a better way to a better life.
Lemmy[.]zip has some sane people.
“Gender affirming” is just abortion. Like it or not you should call it what it is.
Wat
You’re thinking of plan B. Gender affirming medicine is a politically correct word for sex hormones (estrogen testosterone etc)
Oh
My bad I guess. Either way it would be nice not to use unclear names.
Based reality eroder
???
An abortion is an induced termination of a pregnancy.
HRT pills are not that.
Ooh let’s ask him what communism is for more word salad
did you put your head in a microwave
No but my mother did use pesticides back in the day.
Basiclly I misunderstood the meaning of “gender affirming care”
It’s just a garden variety troll.
What does this even mean
Good
Just because a company makes medication in pink and blue colors doesn’t mean it’s safe to consume! Your first priority show be the safety of the medicine itself.
Buy some Skittles if you want to “taste the rainbow.”
Does any conservative have anything better to do than police people?
I look forward to when there is no policing or oversight or community standards and everyone gets to do whatever they want because people are inherently good.
Use Tor. Centralised services are easy to attack.
Tor is not a search engine. Use duckduckgo/ecosia
Searx
Both based on Bing’s search engine
Technology?
Google is a tech company.
Ahem, pretty sure that’s ecstasy.
Fuck a white Mercedes or yellow Glock… gimme pink, blue, and purple gender rolls
