I am not a native English speaker and I have sometimes referred to people as male and female (as that is what I have been taught) but I have received some backlash in some cases, especially for the word “female”, is there some negative thought in the word which I am unaware of?
I don’t know if this is the best place to ask, if it’s not appropriate I have no problem to delete it ^^
It depends on if you’re handsome or not
Learn what consent is and then have your mom sign you up for therapy.
Female as an adjective is perfectly fine.
A female patient, a female politician, a female customer, etc. That’s the best way to refer to those.
What’s bad is using ‘female’ as a noun: "A female. "
In general, you just don’t use adjectives-as-nouns to refer to people. You don’t call someone “a gay”, “a black”, or “a Chinese”. That is offensive, and “a female” has the same kind of feel.
(there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German", but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it)
Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.
Unless you’re a ferengi. /s
I think a big part that’s skeevy to me is that gender and sex are comparatively unimportant individual traits, referring to someone by their gender happens far more often for women and it’s a hold over of misogyny. There are much more interesting individual traits that identify us than our sex or presented gender.
You can soften “a black” or “a Chinese” entirely by adding “person” to the end of it. English is weird.
Right, because that makes it an adjective.
Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”.
We did have a word that meant that and everyone knew it. But that word has changed into something else.
You okay buddy?
Female person doesn’t mean women.
The word has changed so it’s not correct to say that.
Unless you’re someone’s doctor, it’s almost never relevant to discuss someone’s sex. Gender is how we refer to people in most contexts, and when it’s important (e.g. discussing pregnancy) it’s not rude to make a distinction.
I’m talking about this
we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”
Except “woman” has always meant “adult presenting as female”
Oh dear… And why isn’t “a male” just as bad? And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun? Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”? Is it something to feel shame about? Bah. It’s really beyond me. Thank god i live in Italy, where this kind of stuff still struggles to gain traction, but alas it will do eventually, since hey, you know, we’re all living in america after all. What’s more, it’s not entirely true: now you can get scolded even for using female as an adjective (it happened to me more than once), my friend. And it’ll get worse, just you wait and see.
And why isn’t “a male” just as bad?
It is.
And what’s intrinsically wrong about those two as a noun?
Because you’re reducing people to their characteristics of identity.
Why is it ok to call someone “a fire fighter“, “a journalist”, and not “a female”?
Because those are characteristics of their chosen functions.
It seems pretty easy to me, and I’m not even a native speaker.
It is.
Okay, that’s your opinion, not mine. If opinions still exist, that is.
Because you’re reducing people to their characteristics of identity.
And having innate characteristics is horrible… unbelievable. I must be really old.
It seems pretty easy to me, and I’m not even a native speaker.
Ok, you’re right, you’re reeeally smart. Well done. I quit, have the last say.
Typical male behavior!
There’s no reason for you to feel attacked by the previous sentence, right?
“I had coffee with one of the males at work”
“There’s a male waiting for you downstairs”
“I need to see a male about a dog”
All of them would be weird as fuck, and yes, they’d sound demeaning. They don’t have the same weird-incel vibe, but that’s just an accident of culture.
Right. This is the best way to figure out if it sounds weird.
If you would use “man” then the word to use is “woman”. If you would use “male” then “female”.
So if someone asks is the doctor male or female? No problem. Even if they ask “is the doctor a male or a female?” Still no problem. Kinda odd but certainly not offensive.
The problem arises when someone says “men and females” that does sound weird and kinda insulting. As would “women and males”.
If you would use the word man, use woman.
If you would use the word male, use female.
And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo, and you don’t want that.
I’d just like to emphasise this. It’s not that using a different term is intrinsically bad, it’s just that the people who tend to do it are not cool and you don’t want to look like you’re associated with them.
Meanwhile, you are perfectly ok with judging someone based uniquely on which term they tend to use? Oh my, mankind is really going down the drain…
Yes. Language can show what sort of media people consume and the sorts of groups they socialize with, especially when it comes to the internet.
If someone is using incel language, there will be a strong initial assumption they spend time within incel circles consuming toxic content like Andrew Tate and will remain under that assumption until proven otherwise. Sorry, not sorry?
Yes. Life is a game of trying to guess which people are full of shit. If they say “feeeemales” and then turn out to be fine, great, I’ll probably give them a heads up not to do that.
Was there a non-judgmental era I’m unaware of?
Ok, fine, I’ll “try to guess” too then, if that’s your game. Goodbye!
Bye-bye.
When I was growing up, saying woman was offensive, because it made people feel old. So we would say “girl”. But now It’s flipped. Saying “girl” makes people feel too young, apparently.
I’m still kind of adjusting. The word “woman” still feels icky to me because I was berated for saying it as a kid.
Huh, interesting. Which generation are you from, out of curiosity?
I’m a millennial. It could also have been regional as well, I have no clue.
It’s ridiculous that a perfectly fine word is seen as insult used by a certain type of people.
It’s ridiculous that a perfectly fine word is seen as insult used by a certain type of people.
That’s how association works
I can have the best and most lasting solution to a problem ever, but my company still won’t allow me to put “THE FINAL SOLUTION” in marketing copy.
And they shouldn’t.
So you say … The word describing a biological fact, and a national socialist euphemism for mass murdering millions of people are the same?
So you say … The word describing a biological fact, and a national socialist euphemism for mass murdering millions of people are the same?
Do you even hear yourself?
Engage in good faith or sod off.
The VP of product messaged me a couple weeks ago after some back and forth about some work. She asked if I had some time to talk about the final solution. I went “uhhhh so long as we don’t call it that”
I’m like 90% sure she had no idea why that phrase is reserved.
Welcome to language my friend. Always has, always will.
If it has negative connotations, it’s not a perfectly fine word.
Negative connotations to whom? If those described do not like the term it should not be used. Basic human dignity, just like using one’s preferred pronouns.
I don’t think you’re disagreeing with me here.
except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”. And to go out of your way to avoid saying “woman” makes you sound like some kind of incel weirdo
Sounds more like a terf or “gender critical” person, but maybe that’s just my experience.
Fair.
Now, you could get around it by calling someone “a female person” - except that we already have a word for “female person”, and that’s “woman”.
I’m going to nitpick a touch. “Female person” includes girls. “Women” ecludes them.
“the suspect is a six foot, white male”
Sounds fine to me
Because the police never try to dehumanize “suspects” and “perpetrators”.
Cops (ACAB) are not a good example for moral treatment of others.
Besides, this is basically jargon. That has its own set of rules.
“I was just visiting my friend, a six foot white male”
A little weirder. Context is everything.
Well yeah, why would I need a description of your friend unless it pertains to an upcoming story, and why not use his name if you know it? The cop can’t usually say “It was Steve what done it” because most places aren’t Mayberry.
I think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting. Similar to how documentation is done for other professions, like healthcare. If it’s out of the context of reporting, or other situations listed in the site below, it sounds grammatically strange or rude.
https://myenglishgrammar.com/lessons/adjectives-function-as-nouns/
Source: I’m in healthcare.
“the suspect is a six foot, white male"
think that’s because the descriptors come after the noun in reporting
No they don’t. The word “male” is the noun here.
Why did people upvote that?
“Suspect” is the noun
Both are nouns there. Suspect is the subject.
So you don’t think this argument would hold up if they said “Police are searching for a six foot white male”?
Both are nouns. Suspect is the subject, male is the object. You could replace it with, for example “the suspect is a cat”, and I think we can all agree “cat” is a noun. “six foot” and “white” are the adjectives in that sentence.
Because it’s still acting as a descriptor rather than an identifier, despite playing the syntactic role of a noun instead of an adjective. It’s more about semantics in this case than syntax.
No it is playing the syntactic role of a noun. An object is a noun.
I know it’s playing the syntactic role of a noun, that’s what I said. But it’s playing the semantic role of a descriptor. The “thing” being described here is a suspect, one that is white and also male, as opposed to a male who is white and also suspected.
Syntactically, the word male was a noun. But semantically, it’s still just describing the suspect, rather than identifying the thing to be described.
there are exceptions to the above: you can call someone ‘an American’ or 'A German", but not “A French”. I don’t understand why - if you can’t feel your way, best just avoid it
And yet here you are confidently expounding exactly how this works. Why, if you know you don’t understand, are you weighing in on this like you’re an authority on it?
Because fluent speakers of a language know the rules even if they don’t understand them. Why can you have a big green dog but not a green big dog? Because that’s the way the language works.
To be slightly more specific, you can have a “green big dog”, but it does not convey the same idea as a “big green dog”. The latter is by far the more normal, and it conveys any dog which is both big and green. The former implies the existence of “big dog” as a specific known thing, like “big dog” is a category of its own more than merely a dog that is big.
As a general rule though, yes, follow the adjective order guidelines. There’s some fuzziness with it, but “opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun” should be used.
Yeah, but if I ask a third grader which way is right, they’ll know and they won’t be able to tell you why. This is normal.
Tbh I think it’s just because it sounds bad phonetically, since “a Frenchman” or “an Englishman” are both acceptable as well, but “a French” or “An English” just sounds dumb. Of course you can only do that to white countries, don’t try it with China.
My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.
I generally disagree and it seems fine and not disrespectful at all. But it’s somehat less up to me - I’m not a female.
I think that a good rule of thumb is: would you say “male doctor” or “male politician”? If not, is the professional’s gender relevant? Probably not, in which case it sounds pejorative to include it.
In some cases I would, and I would find it awkward to say “man doctor” or “man politician”. I don’t think it works at all, and I disagree with her that this really is the way most people try to avoid the naming.
But, kinda like pronoun; I guess I try to listen and be sensitive on things like how women and minorities saybtheyre sensitive about, including labels and etc.
My wife tells me that using as an adjective is just as bad and that I should always say “woman”, e.g. a woman politician and never a female politician.
Using a noun as an adjective is just weird, honestly.
And that’s why I say “bruh”
I’m probably the only person to not use that word like a frat douche, I just like calling my guy friends bro and I tried calling my female friends bro and they didn’t find that funny so now everyone gets bruh’d
Interesting point with adjectives vs nouns.
‘a Frenchman’ would be more correct than ‘a French’. Because French is only an adjective, while American and German are both nouns and adjectives. But Frenchman is not gender neutral like German or American.
Could go with Francophone, but that’s any french speaking person so that includes canadians, africans, etc.
And, it would seem to make sense to go with Frank, but the Franks were originally germans, then expanded their territory to include France, and the name stuck there but not in their original territory, so is it really correct to refer to the French as Franks? Since no one does it, I would guess not.
includes canadians
Pffft barely, mon ami 😂
Not a native speaker here. Would a French woman also be 'a Frenchman’s and if not, how would you refer to a French woman correctly?
“Frenchwoman” perhaps? But that sounds a bit dated to me. I’d probably go with “French person” or “French people”.
3 years ago, “man” in that context was considered gender neutral. More recently tho a lot of stink is being made about little language things like this. Theres no replacement word to use.
Frenchwoman and Frenchperson are both ridiculous enough to try, but maybe go with Frenchie just to see if they’ll punch you.
It’s been a lot longer than 3 years. My city changed policeman and fireman to police officer and firefighter almost two decades ago.
I am very skeptical of this 3 year timeframe lining up with the end of Trump’s presidency and the right leaning into this anti-woke position.
Wow, this actually sounds very plausible.
Sensitivities during Covid ran high. A lot of things changed then. For instance in the software world removing the name “master” from git usage, and on the TV Show Survivor, the host not saying his famous line “come on in guys”. At the same time pronouns became a huge thing, and these seemingly gender specific or sensitive word terms were targeted.
You are correct, there was a round of this in the 90s or so, where job titles like “waitress”, “stewardess”, “policeman” were all adjusted. I see that as a very different round of language change.
GitHub changed their terminology in ~2020, but it’s been a controversial term for years before that. I remember master/slave hard drive terminology being set aside in early 2010s. And I was just grunt level, hourly IT at the time.
Yeah, 2020 is the time period I’m referring to. I had never heard of it being a thing until George Floyd and BLM movement in 2020, then GitHub changed in response to that.
I’ve been in IT for 35 years. And I never heard a single negative thing about branch names and master/slave terminology until 2020.
Perhaps you think that was set aside because IDE hard drives are dead.
This is what I said to someone who asked a very similar question about the same thing a while back:
‘Females’ is, effectively, a ‘technical term’ you might say, that isn’t used in normal conversation. It’s used specifically in situations where distance from the subject being discussed is intentional. It is the sort of language used in police reports, medical reports and the like…when it’s even being applied to humans at all. Its use is perhaps more common referring to animals; it’s the sort of terminology you’d expect to hear in a nature documentary.
The people trying to push its use are intending to make the subjects - women - sound ‘other’ and separate and alien by referring to them as ‘females’. Not everyone who is picking up this terminology intends it that way, but the connotations are unavoidable because of how language works in common use, and therefore if you don’t intend it that way, you badly need to be made aware of it so you can stop.
I guess it would be kind of like referring to another person as “human”.
"Hey who helped you with this?”
“This human over here, my co-worker.”
male/female usually used for animals, for humans usage of man/woman would be the right way
Humans are animals though. Why do they get offended when they get reminded of that fact? Smh, this is why us members of the galactic community don’t like your species too much. /S
Maybe that’s how you animals in your “galactic community” operate, but be careful… a lot of people in these parts eat animals for breakfast. For your own self preservation you might want to come up with some reasons why you’re more than just an animal before we get to barbecue season.
Alright. Time to change living conditions to ‘livestock’. I think some of you do it in your space simulator games. /S
Kinda like how ignorant people only thing humans have consciousness while more and more studies show capability in many animals
I disagree. Male/female is used plenty with humans, but it tends to be used in a more clinical or ‘objective’ manner, such as in legal documents, autopsy reports, police suspect descriptions, things of that sort.
I think the use of, e.g., “Look at those four males over there”, it has a bit of a connotation of separation of the personhood of the people involved. A man is a living, thinking being; he is worthy of dignity, and he has a soul. A ‘male’ can almost be called an ‘it’: it has a characterization of cold, scientific classification.
A ‘male’ can almost be called an ‘it’: it has a characterization of cold, scientific classification.
But that’s the issue: its dehumanizing and that’s done intentionally. The use case you mention seems to just be an extension of its usage for livestock rather than an exception. But its an exception to it being used in a misogynistic way while still being a noun.
Don’t bring science to feminism!
Many people consider it dehumanizing. Others interpret as a signal of at least insensitivity and at most conscious dehumanizing. It can feel threatening outside certain specific contexts and that depends much on how much you trust the person saying it.
I find it outmoded and jarring. I know people who say it as part of everyday speech and I trust them but I’d prefer it if they spoke differently and I think they’re projecting an image worse than they merit.
I don’t call things offensive or not, because that oversimplifies the matter. I would find “male” and “female” useful as nouns when I want to refer to biological sex specifically and not confuse it with gender. I would also find the adjectives “manly” and “womanly” useful to refer to gender instead of using “male” and “female”. But as long as enough other people feel threatened by some of those words in a neutral context where they don’t already trust me, it seems wise to me to be aware of that and not use those words that way.
The whole idea of saying “a white” instead of “a white man” is merely a habit we picked up from Latin, anyway.
I personally would always prefer saying boy girl man woman over male and female. Whener I first saw it used it was always in a negative context like “young black male” in regard to some crime to give the opposite example. Just like in French I think it’s weird to refer to humans with male and female, although accurate of course, as I would only expect it in for animals.
Can you give us more context?
“Woman” is almost always preferred because it respects one’s personal identity, as opposed to the compulsory status of biological sex, which is often used as a source of belittlement and/or bigotry against women. (and carries a whole plethora of baggage when people decide they get to judge someone’s female-ness)
But it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t generally be able to use the term “female” without causing social friction, if you have a good amount of social grace.
(its actually quite normal in fantasy/scifi circles, for example)
I think you may be asking the wrong question- you may want to explain what you were talking about and ask what specific phrases or situations might have unsettled people.
Maybe it was just a weirdly specific English faux pas, or maybe you have a friend who is a little extra sensitive after bad experiences and who could use your support. Maybe its a total miscommunication- who knows?
I mean I’m not exactly offended by it, but if someone uses it that’s a “note to self, this person is most likely misogynist” moment for sure.
Yeah, its a red flag.
They indicate potential problems, which is why you look for multiple, but even one obvious one is enough to make you a bit cautious, it makes sense.But if its someone I know, and who isn’t a native English speaker and is pretty chill, I’m probably going to let it slide for a couple uses, then gently ask them why they’re using a certain term in a nice pause in the conversation.
I’m lucky to have had friends from lots of other places, but it can make things so awkward with corrections, even if it has to be done.
But people can absolutely wind up learning horrendously out of date language without meaning any malice. I’ve seen it happen because of confusion regarding the existence of the NAACP, and the use of the term, “People of Color.”The way OP is talking makes it sound like he could likely talk it out with the other people, and I think that may be the best option. (though I can understand why they may want some insight from the internet first)
Not really offensive, but it carries a reductive vibe, the ones who use “female” instead of “woman” are often incels, giving the term a bad conotation.
Also, Ferengis…
Jeez, mark that NSFW please
Episode is so stupid, I can’t not laugh.
this! an example of someone always using it in a such a way is Andrew Tate. watch any of his videos where he mentions girls and you’ll immediately understand
I always think of the ferengis when people use men to describe men, and females to describe women.
Likewise I have seen radical feminists use “male” all the time. Is it okay to classify them as femcels and misandrists?
I think it’s because it’s mostly used by “sigma male” seing womens as objects(not sure thought, but that’s why i’ve seen).
As far as I’m concerned. No not a problem.
If someone says they identify as something else then make the correction.
I don’t think the question was about misgendering people but about using “female” instead of “woman”.
If that’s the case then I have less of a clue as to where the problem is
Living under a rock the last 15 years?
Making fun of someone for not knowing something, are we?
More like implying they do know, actually. It’s hard to imagine speaking english as well as they do and somehow not knowing this.
Welcome to the real world?
Read the other comments in this thread. “female” as an adjective is fine, “female” as a noun is often abused by misogynists to imply women are less human than men.
Would you prefer I identify you as a nincompoop or a nazi? I won’t respect your choice, and will refer you to the latter.
Depends entirely on how you use it. There are many perfectly valid uses for the word, like in science or on a checkbox where you select you gender. The point where it can get offensive is when referring to individuals or groups of women as “females” where you could instead just use “women”. It’s language often used by incels and the like.
It’s potentially offensive when people say men and females, which is often why it comes up online. Using either male or female as a noun is dehumanizing, in that it’s not commonly used to refer to people, but mostly animals (law enforcement and military use them as nouns, but they’re also intentionally distancing themselves from the people in reports).
Basically, “women” feels weird for a lot of English speakers, but “girls” sounds creepy, so they try for something else. Just go with women, 99% of the time, it’s perfectly fine
Just say ladies. That’s polite.
I’m torn here. It’s a good way for me to talk about my peers (early thirties) in the third person, but it doesn’t quite fit for second person for me. (Edit: ”guy” is also not great for second person, now that I think about it, so maybe it’s more equivalent than I realized. Though for plural third person, it still isn’t 1:1, imo. “Two guys in my class” has a different connotation from “two ladies in my class,” but I can’t put my finger on why.)
“Ladies” feels formal/salesy (if someone addresses a group of women I’m in as “ladies,” it feels like they’re either a server for our group dinner or trying to quickly build rapport) to me, whereas “lady” can often feel straight up rude ( “hey, lady!” sounds like Bart Simpson said it vs. “hey, ladies!” which could mean so many different things depending on the context, but seems less annoyed at least).
While generally true, there are some people from older generations that associate ladies with prostitution as in ‘ladies of the night’ and find it offensive.
Yes, I have known quite a few and they are in their 60s to 80s right now.
It’s mostly this, I would say. But in general there’s a valid context to use male/female and another valid context to use man/woman or girl/boy or lady/gentleman.
Most people are not going to hold someone speaking English as a second language to task over it. But if you’re speaking natively, there’s no real excuse not to know when it is right to use the correct term.
But that’s just my own opinion.
This just seems women are more touchy about this stuff then men.
Someone called me out on reddit for using the word girls for women and it was sexist because it is infantising, and it was stupid because they were making out I don’t call men boys. When I absoultely do, in fact I do it more than the alternative. Really the only way I was sexist on that is that I don’t do it as much as I do with men so if anything I should do it more.
But you can’t win, someone’s always going to be offended
What about when specifying the gender of your friend? “My woman friend” sounds really weird to me. I usually say, “my female friend” because it sounds more natural, but I don’t want to sound like an incel/misogynist.
For what it’s worth, I say “my male friend” as well.
Nonono, it’s always okay to use it as an adjective, so that’s fine!
“women” feels weird for a lot of English speakers
Why does it feel weird? (not a native speaker here)
Because there’s no good equivalent to “guys” for women, and women often feels too old/formal. If I’m talking about a group of 19 year olds, then they are women and men (and there’s no good word for NB adults, other than “adults,” that I can think of, either), but 19 year olds still feel younger than women and men. “Guy” is any age and denotes a peer or relaxed relationship, but “woman” and “man” don’t have those connotations. I would talk about the man who works at the bank and the guy who works at the coffee shop, as an indicator of familiarity, if that helps. If you speak a language with a formal you and an informal you, it feels like a similar distinction to me, though those are also all different.
“Guys” can refer to groups of women, and I definitely call my sisters guys, but if you talk about “a guy,” it isn’t gender neutral where I’m from.
“Lady” singular denotes age, but not formality, though the formality difference between “lady” and “ladies” is hard (I could absolutely see someone saying “some lady was an absolute asshole at the gas station today,” but “two ladies were absolute assholes at the gas station,” is weird).
Gals is the term that matches guys, but it seems like it fell out of favor when women was promoted as a response to the use of girls in a negative way to describe women (adults) in an infantilizing way. Like it was common to say men’s sports and girls sports in the same way that incels use men and females.
FYI: Ladies goes with lords, as in lords and ladies.
I know gal is considered an equivalent, but the only people I’ve ever known to use it were Girl Scout leaders and square dance callers, so it doesn’t feel at all equivalent to me. I don’t know if this is widespread and/or why the word never gained as much traction as “guy,” but I definitely don’t enjoy being called a gal. It feels infantilizing and othering to me, like when people say “and dudettes!”
Interestingly, gal comes from “girl,” whereas guy comes from guy fawkes. I would have made a very unwise bet that “guy” was older.
Terms for the sexes/genders are treated differently. In the US, the only term I can think of that has been used derogatively for men is ‘boy’, and only in the context of racism for disparaging adult men who are black.
On the other side, most of the terms have been used negatively in different contexts. Women were often called girls to infantilize them. Gals was used to avoid formality. ‘Ladies of the night’ spoiled the term ladies because of the association with prostitution.
On the flip side a boys club isn’t disparagingly to infantilize men, as shown in the song ‘The boys are back in town’. A girls night out is generally not seen as a negative, but calling women’s sports in college girl’s sports is while men’s sports tend to just be called sports.
So while there are exceptions, other terms for men terms tend to not be used negatively like other terms for women do and that is why women’s terms tend to fall out of favor over time while men’s stick around.
This is why I love the word “y’all”
Thanks!
woman reads as “wo-man”
women reads as “we-men”English is weird. I blame the British.
While we’re at it, loose and lose. Somehow taking away an o makes the vowel sound longer and makes the consonant voiced?
Contextual irregularities.
There’s a loss connection in there that ties into it.
Very mish-mash sort of stuff, eh?
As non native English speaker. For me yes, clearly.
Lol what the fuck?
You don’t accept that we are not animals ? Female is offensive and used by sigmas and incels 💁
I interpreted your initial comment as calling OP’s English out, tbh.
Thanks, did an edit.
I’m sorry English is awful, but it’s much clearer now :)
Incels using a word offensively does not make the word inherently offensive, and by letting them reframe the word in their favor you’re giving them power they do not deserve.
When using male/female to denote biological sex, the words should not be offensive. “Were you born malr or female” in a medical settting can be vital to treatments, for example.
Generally, though, people ought to be using gender.
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Male and female are biological terms. Mostly “man/woman” are more appropriate unless you’re specifically talking about biological sex. Particularly since a certain bunch of people is now using “females” with a bit of underlying vitriol, it’d be a good idea to stay away from it.
What is a good term when you don’t want to exclude minors who are not yet women, like six year olds?
‘Women and girls’ seems awkward when talking about sports leagues for people of all ages who are female.
The biggest rule of thumb is to be consistent between the genders.
So if you say “men’s and boys’ leagues”, then say “women’s and girls’ leagues”, not “females’ leagues”.
The problem is the “Men and females” phenomenon (even when implied), not the word itself.
Yes, it would be weird to use that combination. I can’t think of why anyone would other than overt sexism. That doesn’t answer the question of what term would work for across ages for either gender though.
It is also weird to see bathrooms labeled as men and ladies instead of men and women. Another example of inconsistency in how society sees women compared to men.
I think the important part is to be consistent. “Female sports leagues don’t get the same attention as male sports leagues”. Of course, that particular sentence sounds weird, but I’m sure it could be made to work. Personally, I’d use “women’s and men’s” and hope that it’s implied that the same is true to girls’ and boys’ leagues.
As for bathrooms, now that I think about it, most are only marked with the signs/images. No words. But “men/women” and “ladies/gents” seems common for places that bother putting words.
Of course, the most common bathroom I see is “CUSTOMERS ONLY” (or sometimes COSTUMERS, lol).
I’d sneak a peek at some other league and do whatever they did.
When I say “avoid using ‘female’” (specifically as a noun to mean “woman”) it’s not an absolute. The gist is just to not come off like a fedora-tipping twat. Sometimes it’s used intentionally to objectify or demean “females” in general, or using the “woman/female” distinction as some sort of pointed transphobic shtick.
It’s still a perfectly cromulent word as long as it doesn’t get neckbeardy.
You’d think so, but I have seen the opposite when discussing topics that were true for all ages.
Maybe I just tripped over the most vocal people who don’t understand nuance, since one person actually said to use ‘woman’ to describe a six year old.
