As the Republican Party’s blockade of aid to Ukraine drags into its fourth month, the U.S. government under Pres. Joe Biden has found a clever new way to give Ukraine’s forces the weapons and ammunition they need to defend their country.
It is, in essence, an American version of Germany’s circular weapons trade—the so-called Ringtausch. The United States is gifting older surplus weapons to Greece with the understanding that Greece donates to Ukraine some of its own surplus weapons.
Greek media broke the news last week. According to the newspaper Kathimerini and other media, the Biden administration offered the Greek government three 87-foot Protector-class patrol boats, two Lockheed Martin C-130H airlifters, 10 Allison T56 turboprop engines for Lockheed P-3 patrol planes plus 60 M-2 Bradley fighting vehicles and a consignment of transport trucks.
All this hardware is U.S. military surplus—and is available to Greece, free of charge, under a U.S. legal authority called “excess defense articles.” Federal law allows an American president to declare military systems surplus to need, assign them a value—potentially zero dollars—and give them away on the condition that the recipient transport them.
Remember when Republicans used to yell “better dead than red!” to show their hostility to the USSR and communism?
Now too many of them are preoccupied with twerking for the authoritarian roach that emerged from the USSR’s corpse (and which still has a lot in common with it).
Also, the Republican party is now the red party, which is pretty funny.
Nothing surprising for everyone who already knew that what they disliked about the USSR wasn’t really the totalitarianism, just the lower wealth unequality.
More so that sort loved the USSR: it provided the ultimate boogyman they could use to justify just about anything.
Accuse your political foes of being commies, and “investigate” them. Advance Christian nationalism by pointing at the “godless Soviets”. Need to get your political donors want some sweet defense contracts? – well we need weapons to fight the reds.
The USSR did the same thing with the “decadent west”.
And just as it was back then, the red menace was ALWAYS about distracting the masses away from voting against corporate interests
Wait, we can vote against corporate interests?
What if I told you all he funding we have given Ukraine has only harmed them?
Then I’d call you a complete liar with a weak grasp on reality, and a poor understanding of where and when you ought to open your ill-informed mouth, before I walked off and continued with my day, secure in the knowledge that you’re as wrong about something as it’s physically possible to be.
That’s what.
Sorry, too subtle. Go say that to the Russian shill but even more louder.
Then I’d call you ignorant with a weak grasp on facts.
4 day old account, all but two comments are pro-russian. Guess lemmy is getting popular enough to attract attention from the Russian troll farms.
Lol. You’re trying to troll but failing miserably.
If I am trolling and you keep responding then that means I am winning… Thank you!
Like I said: failing miserably. An effective troll foments FUD. You are only receiving ridicule.
Like I said; if you think I am a troll and you respond then I win. I will take the W!
Is that how the performance metrics work at those centers? If you do well do you get more potatoes?
Its the other guys metric, I am not a troll, that is just what douches like that say so they dont have to think for themselves. Did you have anything useful to say or is your brain also turned off?
What?
If Ukraine had accepted the deal they negotiated in spring of 2022, the war would have been over, they would have more territory than they do now, and they wouldnt have those tens of thousands of people dead. But instead they took the western money and kept fighting and are now on the verge of losing.
It’s almost comical to see “leftists” scream about the lies that Trump and GOP tell - but if you suggest there was a diplomatic solution they explode immediately lol. War propaganda is working incredibly well these days and any pacifist notion is attacked as subversive and downvoted. Vast majority of millennials and gen Z are just as brainwashed and are murderous war mongers the boomers were.
PS: I’m really missing a fitting word for this. They are not fascists and nationalists or imperialists is too weak. War mongers sounds a bit lame too.
I think millenials and older know about how the left used to be the party of peace and the right was the war mongers. Now some of the rights is still warmongers but the left is just as bloodthirsty. Its like “Putin must pay!!! Send more Ukrainian young men to their death!!!”
You mean they don’t know about the left being pro peace? Or that they are overcompensating because they do know?
There is a documentary by Adam Curtis about how the rhetoric in geopolitics changed to good vs evil, not just Reagan but all the third way leftists. A very successful PR / brainwashing campaign.
But ever since Ukraine started this has massively changed on reddit which is supposedly “leftist”. Presumably the “science and technology of propaganda” is improving. If the Irak and Afghanistan happened today, there wouldn’t be any major opposition to it online. There wasn’t any in mainstream media either at the time, but back then the internet actually was less… warmongery?
I dont know if they dont know what the more traditional leftists believed in back in the 90s and earlier, or other interests have taken over their rhetoric, or if they are just using the oppressor - oppressed world view to pick Ukraine and Palestine. Do you think they got co-opted by big business interests or something else?
Ok Chamberland. You mean the ones that both sides walk away from? Ukraine has a right to all its territory. It shouldn’t have to give up any of its land to the Russian aggressor. I don’t think Ukraine is on the verge of losing.
I am just telling you the facts, the war would have been over and tens of thousands still alive if it were not for people like Zelensky.
No you’re not telling any facts. Thousands of people would be alive if it weren’t for people like putin.
You are talking about a different issue. I am just telling you that without the western “aid” the war would have been over and it would have been a much better outcome. But as it is, Ukraine is about to lose and you guys want to fund the war so more Ukrainians die.
Don’t forget they changed the pledge allegiance to put in under God to shove another thing in the Russians face.
And the money
Sounds like Vietnam.
Please expand as I’m not sure what part of Vietnam you are referring to.
The other land we know nothing about part
Also sounds like every conflict in US history. So what?
That is sort of a self damning question you asked.
How have all of those armed conflicts gone for the US when the executive end runs around Congress ?
Again what is your point?
Are you saying it’s better to let the Ukraine flail? That sounds like a moronic thing to imply.
Both the Ukraine and Greece are our allies so why wouldn’t we help them?
I think we owe Ukraine as we removed their nuclear deterrent. That is very much on the USA.
But that doesn’t mean that IRAN-CONTRA should be valid US foreign policy. Lend Lease worked until it didn’t.
That’s the dumbest thing I’ve heard. We aren’t helping Ukraine because we own them one. We are helping Ukraine because it’s in best interest of the entire world.
We aren’t helping Ukraine because we own them one.
Oh, yes we are.
Someone’s forgotten how upon independence in 1991, Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for guarantees of protection from the US, UK, Russia and France. We are literally upholding our end of a 30+ year old agreement we made with Ukraine, and the GOP is doing everything in its power to break our word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
You are dense as they come if you think this is the only reason we are helping.
They (bi-partisan) are coming for your social security though. No money for the people, only wars.
https://twitter.com/SSWorks/status/1729584226658381828?t=w2RFSDx5k8auaZId2WWFYA
Sweet.
More debt for war, and this one isn’t even ours. That totally worked great when we did it in Iraq in the 80’s.
As if we haven’t racked up enough of that over the last 40 years.
Greece is gonna pay 4 or 8 billion dollars for the F-35(depending on whether it buys 20 or 40 of them). The US is just giving old surplus crap to Greece so that Greece will give its even older surplus crap to Ukraine.
And while i am not the biggest supporter of the current conservative government, i think Greece will continue having elections, wont use chemical weapons on any minorities or invade a tiny neighbour. So i dont see how Greece is comparable to Iraq.
and this one isn’t even ours
It will be if Ukraine falls, I guarantee it. We pay now, or we pay more later having left them to suffer and die while China watches the West clutch pearls. There is no not paying. Putin made that decision for us.
It will be if Ukraine falls, I guarantee it.
This is the justification every single time.
I’m honestly sick of hearing it, especially when Americans can’t get their own tax dollars back in aid.
Just get off with this tired argument. The US is the STRONGEST ECONOMY IN THE DAMN WORLD RIGHT NOW. We have built our land on the backs of every other nation on the planet pretty much. If nothing else, we deserve to give some back as a nation just to balance the scales, just to allow every armchair economist/philosopher/world leader here and every other stupid-ass social media platform to spout the bullshit they pull out of their half-brain ass.
Homelessness in the US went up 12% last year, in one year, alone.
What’s tired is watching us continue our warmongering when the neglect of our own people has grown to such a vulgar extent. It doesn’t matter how strong our economy is when all it’s doing is making a handful of people wealthier and funding other countries’ wars to our own detriment.
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A nation can address more than one thing at a time.
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Tax millionaires and above at a commensurate tax rate.
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Stop voting for people who only ever vote to slash social service programs, like housing aid and renter’s rights. Now who, might I ask, is the group that does that every damn time?
A nation can address more than one thing at a time.
You partisan folks always repeat this, as if our government’s doing anything other than spending its time figuring out ways to spend more of our money on war.
Tax millionaires and above at a commensurate tax rate.
That will only happen if you vote third party. All the legislators in Washington ARE millionnaires.
Now who, might I ask, is the group that does that every damn time?
Both of you, ever since Clinton.
Congratulations - that’s the stupidest thing I’ve read all day. NOAA, NWS, HUD, Dept of Education, DoT, NASA, AMTRAK, BLS, Census… That’s just off the top of my head. Hyperbole is hyperbolic. Get rekd.
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It’s not debt at all because it isn’t new hardware. The program is literally giving old surplus hardware to allies and then they give their old hardware away to Ukraine.
Reminds me of Charlie Wilson’s war.
Man, Sorkin doesn’t miss. I wish there were more movies like this.
Hell fucking yeah!
Umberto Ecco’s rule #8 of fascism: “The enemy is both strong and weak.”
Hey Republicans, which is it this time? Is Biden a demented old fool or a dictator? lol.
Dark Brandon strikes again.
For most of my lifetime, any American screeching about the President arming NATO allies in order to prevent Russian expansion into Europe would have been seen as a traitor.
Lead poisoning is a helluva drug.
Umberto “Eco”
They’re talking about the lesser known Umbero Ecco, the dolphin.
Umberto Echolocation
Moderate Rebels 6.0
Good news. Fuck Republicans. Slava Ukraini.
The Republican way is to smugly grease palms, but the way around them is simply via Greece and shrug. 🤷🏼♂️
Isn’t that at risk of pissing Turkey off?
Not sure how their relations are with Greece these days.
I hope Erdogan is fuming, what an asshat
US also just sold a bunch of F16 to Turkey and a whole bunch of upgrades to their existing F16s. It was part of a deal (blackmail) when turkey didn’t want to allow Sweden into nato. After they agreed, they got their planes and upgrades.
The sale to Turkey includes 40 Lockheed Martin F-16s and equipment to modernise 79 of its existing F-16 fleet. Greece will get 40 F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters and related equipment.
Let’s spread weapons all over the world and cross our fingers that we get the outcome we want.
the outcome we want
Profit.
At almost 1/3 of a trillion dollars last year, arms exporters and manufacturers win.
Hey, no - let’s actually let Ukraine fall and allow the Putim regime this one because… the alternative is better for us? (the US and our allies, the rest of Europe and the fucking world…)
I’m idealistic, but some people just don’t have any damn common sense.
I mean anti-communism, democracy, freedom, the soveignty of nations, and profits are all on the same side for Ukraine but still the Republicans object.
Maybe figure out which PACs are cashing checks for Rubles or Yuan.
Yes. Let’s kill Russians!
That’s wrong way to say “let’s help Ukraine survive”.
which republicans are pro-russia?
Yes.
All of them.
you’ll forgive me for asking for some kind of proof.
Follow the bread crumbs. Every Republican policy benefits Russia. There was the team of traitors that went over and met with Putin on the 4th of July. It was proven that Russia aided the Trump campaign. No Republicans stood up against it or called it out for what it is. Knowing all of that and then supporting and actively still trying to write policy that hurts America and helps Russia man’s all Republicans are Russian supporting traitors.
this is conjecture. i was hoping for something more concrete.
You won’t find anything concrete with your head so far in the sand.
this, also, is not evidence: it’s rhetorical posturing
And their children. And grandchildren. Also their car inspectors.
I don’t care what the talking head have to say. as for the elected people, I think it’s hard to call their statements pro-russia. at least, if these are the most damning, I would not conclude they are pro-russia.
I’d like to hear what they have to say about Russia, not just Russia’s relationship with Ukraine.
The ones that take Russian money.
is there a list of them?
https://accountability.gop/ukraine-quotes/
If there was a “list” you’d ignore it anyways, stop acting like you can be swayed by evidence
the list is just one step. once there is a list of accused, i’d want to see the evidence.
of course i can be swayed by evidence, but the ukraine quotes you provided are not very convincing, and many of them aren’t even from people in government.
I’m sure some sites have a list, they have not been very secretive about it.
I’ve been following this from around 2018, you don’t need to read many articles about the gop to see the pattern between the politicians and their handlers.
Yes you don’t trust anecdotal evidence and all that, so if you can be bothered go and find the real dirt on gop, or don’t I’m not your boss.
I don’t need to build their case for them. I’m justified in doubting them without clear evidence.
Fair enough, but it’s hard to present clear evidence when dealing with kompromized individuals. And pootin is an expert in keeping things hidden.
Please play some role reversal here - given the above, what evidence could be presented to make a convincing case?
I’ll give a starter: an FBI investigation of the presumably kompromized.
I’m sorry, this reads like maccarthyist russophobia through and through. if someone supports Russia, they can just say that. none of them did.
-Turkey disliked that-
Turkey’s been on our Shit List ever since they started flying Russian Jets, fuck em.
They get a pass on colonialism and genocide, but you draw the line at breaking embargos?
I think the whole Turkey having started buying Russian armaments predates the current embargo. Like, I can recall them buying some Russian anti-air defense shit designed to down NATO aircraft about 5 years ago or so.
So it’s been more so about Erdoğan trying to assert some weird ass attempt at displayingf dominance. That fucker’s been the president for a decade straight now, looking awfully lot like a despot at this point. And they’re a NATO member right there, mmhm. Yup.
You ignoring the Armenian genocide or the invasion of Cypress is really weird.
It’s such a geopolitical mess because their geography is vital but that same reason is why they’ve historically been an enemy
Turkey and Greece got beef going back to the bronze age. Two of the best armed members of the EU, with those guns pointed at each other. This isn’t the first time Ukraine has benefited from that situation.
You’re thinking of Persians - back in the bronze age, proto-Turks were still in central Asia. Also, Turkey is not an EU member, you’re thinking NATO.
Politically I want Ukraine to have aid but can we at least admit that the president using a weird tradesies loophole to provide aid that Congress has explicitly rejected…kinda sucks?
Sucked when Reagan did it, sucks when Biden does it.
Let’s focus on the fact that Biden is exploiting a loophole and going around policies, and not on the fact that those bigotry-motivated policies are very much risking triggering WWIII, on the ground that it is an “eLeCtIoN yEaR”. sure.
Because if russia finally wins its invasion of Ukraine, they won’t stop there, but we won’t let them conquer the rest of Europe peacefully.
Besides, it’s a well known fact, the context never matters, that’s why we have dumb robots applying the laws to everyone without any context or interpretation rather than a complete, complex judicial system.
That way, if someone tries and commits suicide, lands on your car, killing themselves and making you paraplegic, you get charged with death penalty for killing them, the exact same way the driver of an armored SUV, running over a crowd blinded by hate, would get charged with death penalty.
While I 100% agree with you that it is good that Ukraine is getting its weapons again, I really doubt that Russia would do anything if they won.
If all support for Ukraine stopped today the Russian military would still have been absolutely devastated by this war and winning won’t help them. And I highly doubt that the population would just sit back and accept the new state of affairs, the Russians would be dealing with constant resistance basically forever.
It would be like Germany trying to occupy France in the second world war except with basically no personnel, no equipment, and with people who are highly subject to corruption and a very high tendency for randomly defecting. And then with all that going on they’re going to attack NATO, no chance.
I wish you were right, but unfortunately you aren’t. I answered you. My phone crashed. I am not answering again. Fuck phones. Fuck this half assed world where nothing means anything, and anyone’s utterly uninformed opinion takes 2 minutes to hastily put in a comment, and 2h to refute. That is, if none of your fucking 10192994848595 layers of abstracted software fucks up. I’m out.
So my opinion is uninformed but yours is informed despite the fact that military experts have given similar advice.
Interesting but I suppose it’s massively helpful if you don’t actually bother to refute me and just tell me I’m wrong.
I can do that to, you’re wrong but I’m not going to say why or provide any evidence because I’m just going to give some flimsy excuse
What don’t you understand with “I am not wasting 2h again on some fucking stupid software crashing and losing all I typed?”
I don’t care what you think. Or what you believe. You have already shown enough that I know I have better things to do with my time. So follow my lead and downvote away, but you won’t take my time.
I’m agreeing with you on wanting to help Ukraine, but think about what this power does. If Trump takes over he could make an agreement to give military equipment to Turkey so that Turkey arms Russia. He could give Mexico enough military equipment to pay for The Wall. He could give Saudi Arabia military equipment for nothing and then “unrelatedly” his son in law gets another few billion dollars to manage. It’s just structurally not good to give the president this power, Congress has to have the power of the purse.
The ends don’t justify the means because this isn’t the ends. This will keep happening under all presidents for all sorts of reasons. And this isn’t the only way to get money to Ukraine so the moral weight isn’t just on this. He could get to a deal with House Republicans, or he could push other countries to fund Ukraine more unrelated to using the loophole. There are options.
I also disagree with your “oh sure, let’s focus on this instead of the REAL stuff”… I’m not saying to ignore Ukraine funding. We can talk about two things at the same time. You’re the one saying to ignore the loophole because something you like is happening right now.
The US political system is so far beyond your “respect your power” pipe dream it’s laughable you can make this comment with a straight face. The entire Republican Party has become a one trick pony of obstruction and doing nothing. They can’t even fund the fucking government.
Its that line of thought that gives rise to authoritarians. We have to believe in the Constitutional separation of powers.
And for the record the Republicans are funding the government, so far. They’re just doing it by CR instead of an actual budget.
Lol. We already have authoritarians. Wake up boomer, your idealistic ideas are exactly why we are here. Democratic capitulation of Republican authoritarianism and fascism has created a dysfunctional and unsustainable system. Username checks out.
So you’ve just gone full circle and now you’re pro-authoritarian because the other guys are too. K.
You have completely jumped the shark if you think appropriating decommissioned weapons to an ally to help a democratic country fight against a dictatorship is “authoritarian”. It’s been done for over 50 years imbecile.
As the President is Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces though, isn’t this a strategic prerogative of the position though?
Selling equipment that has been made obsolete could be a military prerogative, which is why the law is written like that, but selling below market value in exchange for a political favor is certainly not a necessary military power, and not one you would want a military to have.
Take the specifics out of it and think of it like gold bars. Does Treasury need gold bars? Probably. Say they have the ability to buy and sell gold bars to fit their legal requirements. Whatever, right? Who cares. That’s part of their job. Now say the president starts giving away gold bars for free to his friends. Not really the same thing as “selling” anymore. That’s obviously a qualitatively different thing.
That equipment and those gold bars are worth something, they were paid for by US tax dollars and revenue from a sale would go back to pay back the US debt. But they are being given away for free. So that is the same thing as giving away tax dollars. Which should be a Congress decision.
It would suck if the reasons congress had rejected it were remotely honest or moral.
Reagan did it through bad regimes - at least Biden is doing through democratic governments. AND they are weapons we’d have to decommission anyway. BIG DIFFERENCE between this and Reagan. Stop being disingenuous.
I’m not being disingenuous, I’m complaining about the method and not the result.
They are not necessarily weapons we HAVE to decommission, the president decides that in addition to the sale price so legally it could be anything.
Yeah no one here agrees with your argument except the pro Putin crowd. I can only assume that’s what you want.
I get what you mean but the block in Congress is based on bad faith. Sometimes you gotta get pragmatic.
What really sucks is that the Republicans are all towing the Trump line because it’s an election year and Trump will make or break their campaign. Trump loves a good dictator and thinks he’s buddies with Putin.
Cut the shit troll
Sorry you think literally all critiques of presidential power and recommendations on the Constitutional separation of powers are trolling.
I don’t. I think you’re a fucking troll.
Haha well I’m writing paragraphs of nuanced explanations of my views. You’re the one repeatedly posting single-line comments swearing and calling me a troll with zero explanation so…not to “I’m rubber you’re glue” ya on this one but you might be the troll in this interaction.
What Greece does with their surplus is none of my business.
The president giving away military hardware your tax dollars paid for is certainly your business. The fact that Greece is sending other equipment to Ukraine is the best part of this haha.
Imagine a future President Trump sending military hardware for free to Saudi Arabia and Hungary and not mentioning the US getting anything back for it. Is it still not your business?
Even if you like the outcome here the mechanism sucks.
The president giving away military hardware your tax dollars paid for is certainly your business.
Why would I have a problem with giving surplus to an ally? We already do that with SA, and probably Hungary. Both also American allies.
If we were selling the military hardware to Greece for a fair market price, I’d agree.
But giving it away for free is different. With this power, only the decency of whoever is currently president prevents them from sending billions of dollars of value to basically any country they want, since things like this laundering through Greece can happen. It’s not just allies, it’s anyone any ally is up for helping.
And those billions in value don’t pop out of nowhere, it’s tax dollars being given away.
Even if you’re not opposed to money being given away to any particular country, you should be a little uncomfortable with giving the Executive Branch the power to give away money like this. It could just as easily be Trump giving hardware to Russia via Turkey. There are no rules preventing it. That is a Congress decision.
First of all, it’s not giving away money, it’s giving away useless hardware.
Second, the US is getting a lot from this in a strategic sense. This is not about money, it’s about weakening one of their biggest adversaries without sending their own soldiers. If Ukraine falls, there is a lot to lose for them and others.
He’s not saying this case is wrong, he’s saying he’s not comfortable with the president having that kind of unilateral power, especially considering what Trump might do with it. I can’t say he’s wrong. Imagine Trump giving away half the military to whoever books Mars a Lago for a month.
