cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/21396125
Stephen Starr in Hamtramck, Michigan
Mon 14 Oct 2024 11.00 EDT
Single issue voters, or is this even a single issue because Trump and Harris don’t really have much different on this particular topic? People really have me scratching my head sometimes.
If this is a joke, it’s a very bad one. If it isn’t, good luck on pulling your head out of your ass.
Do you consider war crimes, mass murderand sending in our troops to assist in a far right wing colonial war – all done with our tax dollars to be a “single issue” like… school vouchers or Amtrak funding? It seems a very dishonest or at best an inaccurate method to weigh issues against each other.
There is no difference because Harris knows her good little gooses steppers will vote for her no matter what she does or who she kills.
single issue voters
the single issue is the eradication of their families and friends
yeah man I wonder why they don’t support that
The single issue: genocide
Why are you sheepdogging for genociders? You have always had the option of saying nothing and educating yourself instead.
I am not a single issue voter and I don’t think that way. There are many important issues on the line and I will vote for the candidate that addresses the most. I am not saying that genocide is unimportant, just that I can’t impact it with my selection.
well I’m gonna say… if enabling genocide doesn’t make you a single issue voter I suspect you’re morally deficient of an individual. Frankly while genocide is enough Harris has a number of issues you’re free to overlook by claiming people are ‘single issue’ just because a thread is covering a particular topic.
- doesn’t support labor. (won’t commit to keeping khan, will break a strike whenever convenient)
- won’t be effective at reducing inflation/cost of living.
- won’t be effective at humane immigration.
- won’t be effective at health care reform. both at a cost and medicinally via weed/psychedelics legalization.
What is more important than supporting and normalizing genocide?
It’s like you’re mentally incapable of reading a comment and responding to the words in it.
I responded directly to what they said re: there being multiple issues they want to weigh. That was their response up me challenging complicity in genocide and asking why the person I was responding to was sheepdogging for genociders. They are trying yo be euphemistic and retreat to the thought-terminsting clichés that reinforce complicity in genocide, which also means avoiding even using the word. So I recontextualized their attempt to decontextualize while still directly addressing it.
Please feel free to tell me which specific parts you would like to see addressed or responded to. I certainly already replied to the first sentence, which was the main point of deflection.
So, you admit to intentionally mischaracterizing what they said and then creating a straw man argument based on that, just so you could win an online argument.
Not that you haven’t been doing that this whole time, but it’s nice for you to admit it.
So, you admit to intentionally mischaracterizing what they said
No? Please do your best to engage with what I say rather than making things up.
Preventing someone from gaining power who will continue genocide, find new targets for genocide, and turn the country into a dictatorship? Choosing the lesser of two evils is the way it works. If you want the greater of two evils then it’s your choice to not participate.
Preventing someone from gaining power who will continue genocide
There could not be a candidate this describes more than Harris. You know, from the Biden-Harris administration behind the genocide happening right now. The one supplying bombs to burn refugee children alive. Have you heard their screams?
I am told Democratic voters are empathetic and strategic. But all I see is racist normalization of genocide and toeing the party line.
find new targets for genocide
That’s a Dem specialty! They have a knack for stoking and supporting genocides. Heck, Obama got one started in Yemen. Even NGOs were saying a vhikd was killed every minute for years by this. Why do you think they are so resilient and steadfast against this genocide and Western attempts to free up Zionist shipping lanes? Did you even know what was done to Yemen?
and turn the country into a dictatorship?
Given that the current “system” has you shilling for genocide you should already question whether you live in a democracy.
Though all of this lesser evilism is also premised on nobody remembering that Trump was already president for 4 years and it was basically the same shot as under Biden. In fact, Biden came in from the right, normalizing the pandemic and slashing benefits for the public, then did the usual, “I’m just a widdle president I can’t do nothin’” act when the SC overturned Roe v. Wade. Ah, but now that there is a genocide to support, unlimited billions for Israel, don’t worry he can bypass Congress. Do you see how the system functions? Do you feel enfranchised? How much less enfranchised were you under Trump?
They’re on the same team. Why do you think Harris’ team is celebrate endorsements from Republican war criminals? A human that cared would spit in their faces and announce charges. You are not provided with such an option for your mainstream party “choices”. They laugh at their committed voters, I’ve seen it in person.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is the way it works. If you want the greater of two evils then it’s your choice to not participate.
No, that’s the way you are told it works by your masters so that you work for them instead of against them. You’ll notice that I am not voting for any genociders. Did I break reality!? Or just deviate from a focus group-tested party talking point?
Just because you’re oversimplifying a complex issue doesn’t make you correct or your choice any better than the alternative.
Unless you’d like to explain how it does…
It is not a complex issue. There is a genocide and there are increasing calls to support those genociders electorally. Instead of supporting genociders, you should oppose them.
Liberals call “issues” complex in order to speak euphemistically about the horrible things they support. They do not actually have an understanding of the alleged complexity, it is just a lazy thought-terminating cliché. When you do understand something, you can discuss it directly. At the moment, you are apparently more afraid of using the word genocide than actually being complicut in it yourself. Is this the “complexity” you are referring to? Your personal discomfort? I suspect so.
Unless you’d like to explain how it does…
Being consistently against genocide is the first step towards actually fighting against it. I have set the bar very low. Can you clear it?
A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
Either you’re obviously too ignorant to hold intelligent opinions on this matter, or you’re clearly arguing in bad faith by stating obvious falsehoods.
Why should anyone take you seriously?
A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
I already stated what is not complex. It is that there is an ongoing genocide and that you and others are sheepdogging for the perpetrators. I stated it directly and your response continues this pattern of avoiding even mentioning the term genocide even though it is the topic of this thread and the points I have made.
Re: “1000 year middle east conflict”, this is itself an ahistorical, chauvinist absurdity that papers over the real modern history of colonialism and Zionism and usually has a few dashes of Islamophobia thrown in as well, though yo be honest I would not be surprised if the people sheepdogging for genociders were not particularly familiar with the details of that reference.
More realistically, the “it’s complex” line serves as a way to avoid thinking about or interrogating the topic, it is a way for the ignorant to feel secure despite knowledgeable troublemakers telling them specific but inconvenient things. Like, say, that you should oppose genocide.
Either you’re obviously too ignorant to hold intelligent opinions on this matter, or you’re clearly arguing in bad faith by stating obvious falsehoods.
At the moment I’m trying to navigate middle schooler level chauvinist talking points and asking you to address what I say rather than what you make up. Oh, and to remind you of my main and original point, the one you are afraid to even mention!
Why should anyone take you seriously?
This is Lemmy, there is a limit to which anyone should take anonymous forum comments seriously.
But you should take genocide seriously. If you are not knee-jerk advocating against it, and are instead trying to support its perpetrators, you had better have the very best knowledge and justifications, better than I can even imagine, to make a case for why you support those carrying out the greatest crime.
Everyone should take genocide seriously and that is what people should listen to in my messages. They should also recognize that the responses to my advocacy require dishonest behaviors.
Naturally, as the election approaches, liberals will increasingly panic and try to shut down anything that disagrees with their (pro-genocidal) party line. But I have and will continue to peel those with empathy and honesty off of that track.
Cherry picking a single detail out of a complex situation doesn’t suddenly make it a simple situation. That is logically fallacious. As is the rest of your argument, which is based on that logical fallacy.
And blaming me using disinformation, because I pointed out the fact that your argument is both fallacious and nonsensical, does not make you right either.
Cherry picking a single detail out of a complex situation doesn’t suddenly make it a simple situation.
Is it a “detail” that fails to include very important context (none of which you can seemingly specify) or is it genocide, something with so much weight that you are afraid to even mention it despite my repeated reminders that it is the topic here?
One of the challenges of evasive and bad faith behavior is that the little quips and pretenses can easily become inconsistent.
Anyways, the actual topic is pretty straightforward. There is a genocide. You should not support those perpetrating it and should instead work against them. So far, you have offered no rebuttal to this outside of straw men and vagaries and posturing.
That is logically fallacious. As is the rest of your argument, which is based on that logical fallacy.
Parrots can repeat many phrases they hear, but they don’t understand their meaning.
Logical fallacies are a set of ways a person can make errors in thinking. The whole point of them is that some nerds thought they were common or important enough to deserve a name. Reflexively accusing me of logical fallacies without naming any, right after I explained how you were using one? Obviously schoolyard “I’m rubber you’re gkue” pantomiming. No understanding, no applicability, just defensive posturing.
And blaming me using disinformation
What disinformation? What did I blame you for?
because I pointed out the fact that your argument is both fallacious and nonsensical, does not make you right either.
Can you tell me when I said or implied, “when I use disinformation against you it means I’m right”? I think you are very confused in both thought and language at this point. You’re relying on quips and phrases that simply do not apply.
Calling it a thousand year conflict is Zionist propaganda. Plain and simple.
Considering that I never said that the Zionist were right, I certainly don’t see how that’s anything but something you just made up to feel better about your lack of position In this argument.
Yeah sure you’re not saying you agree with them, you’re just repeating their racist propaganda that’s all. Totally different.
A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
Israel as a settler colonial entity is around 100 years old. Before that, Christians, Muslims, and Jews lived in the same area with very little sectarian violence for around 800 years.
Thank you for admitting that. I’m correct, however, the rest is completely irrelevant. We’re not talking about those 800 years.
You’d say “its nuanced” about colonizers killing indigenous tribes and the indigenous tribes fighting back.
Dude, Palestinians lived largely in peace with Jews in what was called Palestine until WW2. This is not an ancient conflict unless you believe antisemitic propaganda.
Well no there were Zionist terrorists killing people in that area before World War II. We tend to gloss that over in history though for some reason, maybe it’s because so many people that were targeting were the British and everyone was just kind of okay with it.
The state of Israel is compensation for the Holocaust,
The state of Israel was secured through bribery and a will to try to appease an extremist terrorist group who the UN hoped would settle the eff down if they were given the land they had been killing people trying to steal. They didnt end up appeased, and the world didnt owe them land for the holocaust anyway. They should take that up with Germany and bill them for it, not the rest of us.
This isn’t a 1,000 year Middle east conflict, it’s a modern-day Western settler-colonialist project. It’s an ~80 year ethnic cleansing project.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialismI never claimed anything about Zionism.
This is a straw man argument.
No, it’s been a little over a 100 years of Settler Colonialist Zionism. Zionism has not existed for 1000 years.
‘Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History’ by Nur Masalha gives a detailed account of it’s history before British Occupation and ‘A History of Modern Palestine’ by Ilan Pappe gives a detailed account of it’s history since the British Occupation.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Historian Works on the History
-
Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
-
The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
-
A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
-
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
-
The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
-
The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
-
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
-
10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
🏆
No, it’s been a little over a 100 years of Settler Colonialist Zionism. Zionism has not existed for 1000 years.
I never claimed Zionism existed for 1000 years. That’s a strawman argument, and you wasted an awful lot of time typing all that out.
Do you often find that using logical fallacies and disinformation and mischaracterizing what people said to be an effective debate tactic?
A 1000 year Middle East conflict “isn’t a complex issue”?
This is what you said in the context of the current conflict, which is Israel engaging in Genocide of Palestinians. That is a result of Zionism, which is fundamentally a Settler Colonialist Ideology that has only been around for a little over a hundred years, not a thousand.
-
Its not 1000 years old. Zionists lie about that to make it seem intractable. Arabs and Jews got along fine for the entire 800 year period of the Ottoman empire which ended in the early 1900s. Learn some history so you dont embarass yourself. its 80 years old, since the land theft, murder, and terrorism of the Nakba, done by Israelis.
I mean their single issue is Harris supports murdering their friends and family via her Israel proxy. If you’re going to have a single issue to decide your vote I can’t think of a better one.
Personally Harris lost my vote for two main reasons:
- her continued support of genocide. while its true israel has a right to defend itself, it doesn’t have a right to support of the US while doing so. we have laws on the books for this precise reason and they need to be enforced.
- her unwillingness to commit to supporting labor. won’t commit to khan, will likely happily break a striking union whenever she can as evidenced by the train union and wouldn’t have ‘changed a thing’ comment.
There are a bunch of other things I could overlook but not those two. I jokingly sent my friend a message yesterday.
God it amazes me to watch a candidate who is part of a historically low approval admin go ‘im not wrong its the voters who are wrong’. repeatedly.
my friends response? ‘I can’t tell which candidate you’re talking about’ which was precisely my point.
Why would they even vote ?
To show the votes she lost by going in on genocide, instead of leaving it to minimization by the media.
I know, I was asking why are they even participating when both of them are against Palestinians and will make the genocide even worse … also it will be useless if she won
They are voting for Stein and Crúz.
Got it , thanks
Hey y’all, at least Gaza is saved, right? Take that, Kamala! Haha! Both sides are the same! All of this definitely would have happened under Kamala, it’s so obvious! Two wings of the same bird amirite?!
At this point (3 weeks before elections) if she comes out against the genocide, it’s obvious it’s just a career move and not her actual feelings. It will be business as usual afterward.
Apparently this is what her supporters want. As long as they can convince themselves to FEEL like she didn’t want to aid in genocide, that’s all that matters.
People here are already claiming that she’s secretly against Israel and will flip once she wins, they’re in for a surprise (if they’re even being genuine).
I said it sarcastically once! Sorry!
Okay, but, abandon her for whom exactly? Just not vote? Vote 3rd party? I am not going to say Harris is perfect, but this is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
No, it’s cutting off a cancerous growth yourself because you can’t afford healthcare. You might die to metastasis, you might die to blood loss, but if you leave the growth alone it will kill you.
And yes most are planning on voting third party.
I guess that just doesn’t make sense to me in the current political landscape. We know the third party isn’t going to get the votes, and we also know that Trump is not only not going to save Gaza, he’s going to do everything in his power to make this country worse as well. Currently, voting third party is throwing your vote away. I’m not saying I’m in love with the system or that it isn’t fucked, but we have two options this election. Neither of them is going to save Gaza, but I don’t see why damming the whole country, as well as yourself, to a worse existence, is the more sane option.
Trump’s plan for Gaza and peace in the Middle East to let Israel kill absolutely everyone that they want to.
Anyone who thinks Trump would produce a better outcome for the people of Gaza is not thinking clearly.
In the current political system, voting for a third party in earnest or in protest (for national offices) is a blatant waste of your vote
By all means, vote in third party candidates in local, county and even state elections. Vote to eliminate the electoral college. VOTE for Ranked-Choice/Instant Runoff voting.
These are the ways to break the two party deadlock.
Jill Stein has co-opted the Green Party, and turned it into a blatant pro-trump shill organization, on behalf of Russia/Putin.
Greens once ran good candidates across the country who won a fair number of local races and took office in places where they could have a good positive effect. No more. Sadly that party has been swindled and hoodwinked by a putinist grifter.
Israel is not being held back in any way by the democrats now. How could trump make it worse? Send them napalm? Fucking think about it for a second man. Do you know what’s happening over there currently? What would worse look like to you?
It’s a basic philosophical question.
Say you find yourself locked in a room with a gun, and two people tied to a chair. A voice announces that if you kill one of them, you and the other go free, if you don’t kill anyone or if you kill yourself, everyone dies.
Your solution to this, voting Harris, is trust the voice is telling the truth and figure out who is the worse person so you don’t feel as bad about being a murderer.
Their solution is not being a murderer.
Maybe the voice is telling the truth, and thus the voice will be a murderer, but they won’t be – you would be though with your choice. Maybe the voice is lying, in which case they made the right choice and you objectively made the wrong one, the worst one.
Most humans, ideally, would choose to not be murderers, even if that means a psychopath does a murder “because” you refused to.
In your example, their solution is absolutely being a murderer. They didn’t pull the trigger, but they condemned those people to death. They know that refusing is killing those people, that their refusal is the cause for those peoples deaths. I’m not saying that I don’t think Gaza is important, or that it’s not worth fighting for, but I extend that same importance to my countrymen as well. I think the woman who may need an abortion is important, even if I never get one. I think that my neighbor’s kids should have a save school, and not be laden I’m debt, even thought I don’t plan to have children.
I cannot stop what’s going on in Gaza. It’s a horrible, terribly bitter pill to swallow, but it is the truth. However, I’m not going to set everyone else on fire so we can all burn together in solidarity. Too many other people’s lives are at stake. And I’m not saying their lives are more important than those in Gaza, I’m saying they’re just as important. Kill one person, or kill everyone. I would rather save someone than no one.
Exactly, you think being a murderer is okay.
That is the core philosophical difference.
You are completely okay with killing innocent people. These people are not, normal people are not.
This difference cannot be reconciled. These people will never think the way you do, and thank every God ever imagined for that, as someone needs to be the moral party if only as an example of how normalized and justified pure evil is.
How are you not a murder in your role play here? By doing nothing everyone dies, that blood is ALSO on your hands for inaction.
Because it was a trick. You are being tricked by the voice that you are responsible for minimizing the harm they choose to inflict on the three people in the room, if that threat is even real in the first place.
So to choose to murder anyone or kill yourself is a ridiculous position and most wouldnt take it. The voice will have to be the murderer here if thats what they want.
Or you can believe the voice without question, and kill one of the people based on some arbitrary metric you come up with on the spot to justify you choosing to kill someone.
So in this case, people are believing the lie, then choosing “the lesser of two evils” based on some arbitrary metric like “which ones better for the economy, since they both are genocidal”.
I’m not the one murdering them, quite literally. Just like in real life, there is no mystical unstoppable force of nature in play. It’s another person, like you. Their choices aren’t your choices.
To put it another way, if you sold a kid a bike and he later crashes and dies despite the bike having no faults, are you responsible? Most would correctly identify that you are not responsible in that scenario, as the kid is responsible for what they did with the bike.
Fucking ridiculous.
A vote for anyone OTHER than Harris directly results in MORE Gazan suffering.
Trump will not restrain Israel. On the contrary, he will encourage them to ‘end it’ and achieve “peace” by ACTUALLY genociding all remaining Palestine resistance.
restrain Israel
Are you really so deluded to beleive all of Bidens play acting about how he was seeking peace all this time? He used 0% of his levers to make peace happen and 100% of his levers to encourage Israels murder spree.
There already has been no restraint from Biden. Genocide is genocide, and Harris supports genocide.
I’m not voting for genocide, there is no moral argument to do so.
That’s not at all what I said, and I think you know that. Wanting to help someone is not the same as wanting to kill someone else. My vote doesn’t save Gaza, because there is unfortunately no option, but my vote could still help someone. Not voting, or throwing it away, literally doesn’t help anyone.
I hope you find peace with your indecision and your cowardice should the rest of the country not be able to make up for your inactivity. But I’m sure those suffering in Gaza will feel better knowing that someone in Texas is bleeding out in the parking lot. That’ll show 'em.
Have fun in international court.
This is ridiculous. The most harm-reducing outcome for actual Gazans (not to mention everyone else) is if Harris wins.
Because, either Harris will win, or Trump will win.
There is NO other possibilty and no amount pseudo-philosophy word games will change that fact.
How is being genocided without restraint better than being genocided without restraint?
Ive yet to hear someone explain any details about how it could be worse under trump.
Vague references to restrictions in place is fun. I’m sure they were very disruptive. We’ve all been talking about how much the biden admin is holding netenyahu back right?
I’m not arguing trump was not going to be awful, I’m arguing both sides would have justified genocide and murder one way or another. Open your eyes.
The right already has everything they need for “damning the whole country” with or without Trump - Roe V. Wade being overturned, all this trans panic bullshit, immigration suddenly being everyone’s uncle’s top issue, utter climate inaction, etc. - it’s all happening under Biden’s administration. What makes you think the Democrats are suddenly going to turn heel and do something about it? If they had any interest in doing anything about it, why wouldn’t they be running on that? If we can’t move them on the highest crime against humanity - genocide - by threatening their power in choosing not to support their campaign, what makes you think you’ll be able to move them on anything else by protesting in ways that they can easily ignore and let their opposition stamp down with police response and media circus, just as long as you come back to vote for them in 4 years?
What makes you think your protests won’t just end up like BLM, with the media smearing you and cops descending upon you with military vehicles, riot shields, and rubber bullets as soon as the protests become disruptive; as democrats stand by and grand stand out of one side of their mouth while out of the other they are refusing to defend you and going so far in the opposite direction of answering your demands that they put the very kind of person you’re protesting against - a cop in this case - up for the highest offices in the land?
Neither of them is going to save gaza, and neither of them is going to save us either. One of them is just more annoying than the other and I personally am going to need a much more compelling reason to vote Democrat than that. By voting third party I am showing them that I am engaged in politics and my vote is on the table but only if they come and meet me where I am, as I have hit a wall in what I’m willing to support. They will either get the message and adopt more popular policy - realizing that the right will never trade Republicans for Republicans-lite and they need the left to win - or they will keep disengaging their base from their party and have a much harder time winning elections. That’s their choice to make, not ours.
One side is way more than just “more annoying.” You’re throwing away your vote, period. We cannot be single issue voters, because there isn’t only a single issue at stake. The right will vote against their own self interests every time it the right says they hate the right people.These elections are how they get their players in place. This is how we got here. The players the right have placed in courthouses, congress, the senate, and the supreme court are there reasons we lost Roe v Wade in the first fucking place.
I’m not going to sit here and think that the dems are going to fix every single problem, but I know for a fact Trump would make it worse. People pulled this same shit last election, and the one before. Thinking that, “Oh, well, they’ll see that I’m not gonna vote and then they’ll change.” Magats will vote against their own self interest because they’re damn near a cult. We vote against our own self interests to, what, prove ourselves a point? Teach our politicians a lesson? Make it harder for the Bernies and AOCs to have even a ice cubes chance of hell of even discussing change? For some reason, we can’t see the forest through the trees. It’s so frustrating. People like you want to make it seem like a vote for Harris is a vote for genocide knowing damn well is the only sane option we have. Because you mean to tell me you really fucking think the Republicans are going to handle Gaza with care? Or that they’ll be just a little worse to work with? You genuinely believe that?
So tell me, at the end of this “protest,” what’s the plan? We absolutely know that the third party is going to lose, so it’s either Trump or Harris who have any reasonable odds of winning. So Harris loses, are you happy in this situation? The Republicans will actively block anything to help anyone, but I guess no one getting help is better than anyone getting help in your world. I’m not happy with my choices, but I’m a fucking adult, and adults have to make tough decisions. Adults have to weigh the options. Adults have to look ahead. I know right now I have no feasible candidate to vote for that can assist with Gaza right now, but I know one of those candidates is not going to go on live television and stir a race war by claiming Haitian immigrants are eating fucking cats and dogs. I know one of those candidates doesn’t believe that there are active abortions going on at nine months. I know one of those candidates isn’t going to continue to restrict the rights of citizens in their own country that they don’t like. I know one candidate isn’t going too be too busy sucking Putin’s dick for money and compliments to govern.
Right now, let’s say you and your family are poisoned (not because of what you believe, but go with me here). We give you two cups. One will not only do nothing for you, it will actually make your condition worse and much more painful. Another one may help you, it could even have the antidote, but all you know is that it will not make your condition worse and will at the very least slow the spread, giving you time to think of a plan should it fail. Whatever you pick, your family has to pick too. Your choice in this scenario is to stare at both cups, willing one to change into the antidote with inaction while you continue to succumb to poison. Your family pleades to at least not make their deaths worse, to at least take the possible antidote, or at least give them time, but you’re like, “no, no, no, I think these cups are starting to get that I’m not easily swayed!”
I am sorry that we’re in this situation, but we are. Voting for third party is throwing away your vote. If that’s what you wanna do, I can only hope that the rest of us have more sense to make up for it.
All of that text and you didn’t address a single thing that I said.
You don’t need to explain your line of thinking to me. I’ve been beaten over the head with it. I used to have the same line of thinking. It does not hold up to reasoned criticism and it simply is not possible to defend at this moment without minimizing genocide. Try it. Try having this conversation with someone that is watching their loved ones be murdered indiscriminately by our tax dollars. Go tell them how your chosen social issue is more important than Palestinian lives, that it justifies supporting with your vote and tax dollars a country that is bombing and starving living human beings, who are mostly children, and see if you feel so righteous at the end of it.
The Democrats do not care about any of your issues. They care about winning, and they care about fundraising. When their fundraising is actively threatened by your issues, the only way to get them to move on anything is to threaten their ability to win elections. Look: Biden just fucking did it, a legitimate threat to cut off aid (still only a threat but it’s a start), and I guarantee you it would not have happened if this election was smooth sailing for Kamala. No thanks to you and all of you screeching about the end of the world if Trump wins.
Both of your cups are poisoned, so call their bluff. Refuse to drink the poison and demand an option without poison. The cups did not just materialize there as immutable objects, they were put there by politicians that need us more than we need them and have the power to change what goes in the cup. Do not for a second let them deceive you into thinking otherwise.
If they see they cannot win without you, they will move mountains to come meet you. Lesser evil voting does not allow for that exchange to happen. In fact it actively undermines it. That is how we got here, that is how we keep ratcheting to the right. Not any of your bullshit about unelected judges.
Gotcha. Thanks.
Just curious, but is there a red line the US could cross for you to abandon it? A red line where the Dems and Reps are beyond salvaging, and you would work outside the electoral system to enact change?
In this current landscape, no. Come November, this is it. These are the choices we have. I have to look at everything and find the lesser of two evils. It sucks, but it’s where we are. No, I am not at all pleased with what Harris has had to say about Gaza, but it’s not as if I have another, reasonable option to vote for in the next three weeks. So who do I think it going to be “better” for the next four years while we try again. Neither of them is likely to passify me when it comes to Gaza, but one of them believes in trans rights. Unfortunately, that is better than nothing.
One month before the election is not time to stand on business, the players are set. Now next year, and the next following years until we end up at the next election, absolutely. I have no problem making my voice heard and attempting change when it could actually do something. It’s like, when they tell you to put your own mask on before helping someone else in a plane. Both Gaza and America need “air.” We can even say that, while America is “light headed,” Gaza has already lost consciousness. As much as I wish I could kill two bird with one stone and pick the better candidate and the one against genocide, I can’t, there’s no a “joint mask” that’s fallen for me to pick. But if I put on my mask first, take a deep breath, I’ll get time to try again, maybe even save someone. If I don’t take that mask, no one is getting help and I’ll just pass out too.
I have to do what I can in this moment, and right now that’s trying to put the more sane of the two candidates in office.
So who do I think it going to be “better” for the next four years while we try again.
You aren’t going to try again, like all liberals you’re going to sit on your hands for 4 years and contest Leftists for trying to push for actual change. That’s the problem, liberals can only say they are unhappy with the status quo but work their hardest to perpetuate it.
If I don’t take that mask, no one is getting help and I’ll just pass out too.
All you’re doing is putting on a mask with a hole in it.
Really, all you’re saying is that you would vote for Hitler if 101% Hitler was his opponent and shame voters for voting for a leftist instead.
Just curious, which third party would you vote for ?
Not Jill Stein, if that’s what you’re asking. Looking like Cornel West but I haven’t fully reviewed my options. Might also write someone in. It’s less about the particular candidate and more about the message I’m sending.
Yeah that’s what I was wondering. Not really following us politics apart from the constant bombardment of it on Lemmy, so I’m also curious about what other candidates exist.
Ah gotcha. Didn’t know any better and assumed you were JAQing off trying to make a point.
I also find Claudia De La Cruz compelling but she would be a write-in candidate in my state as she’s not on the ballot here.
Hey, if you’re that curious, here’s an idea. Throw some darts at a map and drop the addresses into onyourballot.vote411.org. It’ll spit out a list of all the local and federal races and what candidates are on the ballot for them in that particular district.
“uncommitted” may be the message you’re looking for.
The article says Trump directly. Read the interviews and about his new campaign office in hamtramck.
Third Party, tyically, that’s what most anti-genocide groups are advocating for.
What third party? David Duke just endorsed Jill Stein.
Shut the fuck up with this
Is there a top down order of bad-faith Democrat talking points distributed every day?
Nope just people out here trying to keep conversations in the realm of reality.
David Duke supports Jill Stein for one single reason: because Jill Stein does not support Israel and Trump does.
Duke even reluctantly endorsed Stein because she is Jewish.
And Stein called him trash and disavowed him.
If you call Jill Stein a white nationalist because of Duke you call every single person who does not support Israel a white nationalist
It is nice to hear she disavowed him. But no it’s not like his attempt to associate with her makes her racist too. It’s just a reminder that she has less chance of winning this election than you do. And citing morals to vote for the party that has transparently turned itself into nothing more than a spoiler is just ridiculous. It’s like rooting for the outfield fans in the home run zone in baseball. (If they lean over and catch it, it’s a home run.)
Any anti-genocide candidate, Claudia De La Crúz is best but Jill Stein is often pushed as an alternative.
You mean the same Jill Stein that was endorsed by former KKK leader, seems like a solid choice…
You were just so excited to use this talking point that you couldn’t be bothered to note that he was responding to it in the very comment you used it on.
Wasn’t called out as the former KKK leader though. So excited to call me out you didn’t check.
You formulated it as though you were bringing up something new: “you mean the same X who Y” is for introducing something new into the conversation in relation to X, with X here being Jill Stein. If you had just used David Duke as X and “who lead the KKK” as Y, it wouldn’t have been an absurd contribution.
Though it would still be a silly one, since people know who David Duke is, it’s not some obscure fact. He’s the single most recognizable name in connection with the KKK, perhaps along with the long-dead D.W. Griffith (but probably not).
Its like lemmy world is just democrat bots that respond with these canned attack responses any time Jill stein is mentioned
I wanna try, I wanna try
^^^Jill ^^^Stein
I understand, you asked me who the anti-genocide groups were supporting, not a vetted list of everyone who has come out in favor of each third party.
Didn’t ask you anything actually lol.
Ah, you were a different user jumping in, my bad. Either way, that’s what was asked originally.
My personal opinion? Claudia De La Crúz all the way.
Dick Cheney endorsed Kamala.
Neither of these facts alone necessarily implicate the candidates. You really have to consider the context. Being endorsed by someone hardly means you keep their company.
I’m not a Jill Stein voter, but I dont think she can control who endorses her so it doesnt make a lot of sense holding that particular thing against her.
Funny enough, that’s exactly who they’re planning on voting for, too! The way they put it, voting for Stein is their way of not voting for Trump but ensuring he beats Harris.
Many of the candidates from alternative parties are anti-genocide.
stop paying your taxes too, that shit is funding the genocide
Way ahead of you.
Right behind you (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
He hopes that Trump, on the other hand, uses his business acumen to bring down the cost of the products he sells in his store, many of which are imported from overseas. “Trump is not perfect, but we have no choice,” he says.
Hashim’s other major concern is Gaza, where more than 42,000 people have been killed by Israeli attacks. “The No 1 reason [to not vote for Harris] is that she is supporting Israel 100%,” he said.
I don’t understand how someone this stupid is able to run a successful business. The high price of goods now is completely due to republican policies that have taken the brakes off of corporate price gouging and Trump has stated that not only is he 100% supportive of Israel but he will happily supercharge their genocide of the Palestinians in Gaza.
This is going to be such a leopard ate my face moment. Do they really think the Republicans are going to do anything? They’re just going to drop some bombs and call it a day. At least with the Democrats there’s a slight chance.
Stupid motherfuckers.
Oh look, anti-Arab racism from liberals already
Do you think a Trump win will end better for them? Shit, do you think a Trump win will end better for anyone?
Go fuck yourself. People like you will hand him a victory.
I think calling Arab-Americans stupid for refusing to vote for genocide is racist. Harris is handing Trump a victory because she can’t cease US support for Israel.
I called white christians stupid motherfuckers for voting for Trump for what they believed were good reasons.
Was that racist?
When you are faced with high numbers of marginalized people refusing to vote for candidates contributing to the genocide of friends, relatives, and people of a similar heritage, and your response is that they are “stupid,” rather than trying to understand why they are acting in that manner, you assert yourself as more “enlightened,” and the marginalized people as uniquely stupid. That is why it is racist.
It’s like you didn’t even read what I wrote.
It’s NOT uniquely stupid. Dummies vote against their interests all the time (see comment about white Christians).
And it doesn’t take any special enlightenment to acknowledge how FPTP voting works. In fact, it’s so simple, you’d have to be pretty stupid to be unaware.
But keep ruining that word to the point of meaninglessness.
I read every word of what you wrote.
Arab-Americans are refusing to vote for genocide at much, much higher rates than other ethnicities. My answer is what they have been saying themselves: they can’t vote for continued genocide of their friends, family, and people of a similar background. Your answer is that it’s because Arab-Americans are uniquely stupid among ethnicities in America, which is racist.
I don’t think anyone is calling anyone stupid for calling for an end to the genocide. But what’s stupid is when people think that Trump will somehow stop the genocide.
Oh and btw… I was banned from world news. LOL.
But what’s stupid is when people think that Trump will somehow stop the genocide.
No one thinks this
Meaning these people are consciously assisting continuing what they believe is a genocide abroad AND making things worse here too?
Or do they not understand FPTP voting?
As so many Harris-voting lemmitors have instructed me, stopping the genocide is not on the effective ballot as-presented, so no, they are not assisting continuing what is absolutely a genocide. The goal is that they either pressure Harris to not be a ghoul, because they presume she cares about winning more than aiding genocide (this is most likely false) or, if Harris sticks to her guns and either loses or wins by such slim margins that it makes the Dem winning next election without stopping Israel much more hazardous, they (the Muslim/Arab voters) can extract concessions, because even electoral politics doesn’t end with one election cycle, and some strategies aimed at maximizing some long term result can introduce a risk or even a guarantee of short-term costs.
I don’t believe, like I think those voters do, that Dems would trade Israel slaughtering with impunity even for a guaranteed victory, but I think them demonstrating that unwillingness has its own value, since the DNC needs to be brought down. I don’t expect you to agree to this and am not terribly interested in persuading you, I’m just offering an explanation.
There was a commenter calling Arab-American voters stupid for abandoning Harris.
Well that is stupid. People can be stupid from all corners of the globe.
The knee jerk response from lefties is that any insult or criticism of people who are members of a minority is racist, regardless of if it has anything to do with race (or race adjacent).
I think anyone that is not a billionaire that is not voting for Harris is a fucking moron. My views aren’t limited to Arab-Americans but I guess they can feel great about their virtue signaling while they’re in Trump’s deportation line getting sent to who knows where.
Yeah… I’ve heard better Lowkeys.
Virtually no one thinks Trump will stop the genocide. You’re just strawmaning.
Then why not vote for the other people, who will possibly make it a slightly less bad genocide? What’s wrong with less bad?
You’d have to ask them. If your family or the families of people in your community were being slaughtered by the incumbent administration, you might discover you have a red line after all. Fortunately for you, you’ll probably never really know.
Not just in Michigan ;)
Dumb fucks. I hope the leopard fucking devours their faces.
The important thing here is that I don’t have to be civil to these people. We should shame them at every chance and equate them to literal MAGA. Only then will we win the election, which is what this is about and is not some distraction.
I’m sure that shaming them will make them change their minds and will not backfire in any way whatsoever.
Average democratic party outreach strategies. This would be funny if it wasn’t covering for a literal genocide.
I wonder if some of these posters are working for some Hasbara marketing agency. When you cant tell the difference between Dem supporters and far right Hasbara propogandists, things have gone very very very wrong.
Very true. This isn’t a battle they are going to come out on top of by pulling this shit. If not voting blue means a narrow margin of victory for the felon, they will have a whole lot more to worry about after January.
I feel like the lesser of two evils argument fails at the point of literal genocide and war crimes including intentional strikes on aid workers explicitly approved by the Biden regime. I’m sure Trump won’t be better, but it’s hard to see how he can be worse. They’re burning hospital patients alive in their beds. Asking a Muslim to support this genocidal DNC while they are being genocided is honestly the perfect encapsulation of the “it’s your fault you don’t want to vote for our shitty do nothing but evil party” logic that has destroyed the democratic brand and empowered a GOP in chaos, who would be losing to a more competently managed party right now.
Trump stated earlier this year that if re-elected, he would ask Israel to make the Gaza issue “go away” in under a week. It’s one thing to be supplying the weapons, but quite another to have the most powerful country give their approval to do whatever it takes to end the conflict to Israel’s benefit. There was a Palestinian newspaper article I saw a couple months ago that gave the opinion that under Harris they would get bombed, but under Trump they would cease to exist. Of course when I linked that in a similar discussion I was accused a picking my sources, because hey what does a Palestinian newspaper know about Palestine?
but quite another to have the most powerful country give their approval to do whatever it takes to end the conflict to Israel’s benefit.
Israel already has approval! The arguments on the phone are kabuki theater
Trump says a lot of stuff. It’s usually awful. But he’s not much of a do-er, so I don’t think anyone can say exactly what he’d do different (the McGurk monster who is running all of this is a literal Trump first term holdover, so probably the same rabid dog would run the genocide either way). Biden is giving Israel explicit permission for all of this, including striking aid workers. Genocide Joe pretending he’s not fully supportive of this doesn’t un-burn-alive anyone. Words are wind. War crimes are war crimes. You can’t be the “lesser” evil perpetrating a genocide.
Agreed that we don’t know unless he’s given the chance to try something, but it’s not exactly something I’d like to “fuck around and find out”. There have been a lot of reports from people who were on his team during his last term that are talking about how he was talked down from extreme actions, and this time his people already know what they’re getting in to and are ok with it. I can only hope Harris can be better than Biden, but we do know Trump was willing to let his own nation (California) burn just because they didn’t all vote for him.
Only you can decide for yourself what creates enough urgency for you to support a pro-genocide political party. For me there’s nothing. I can’t control the moral or amoral actions of others but I can control my own. I will not be a party to genocide. Period.
Voting third-party could lead to Trump winning. He has already stated he will cut all support to Ukraine, which also leads to genocide, not to mention what he is threatening to do to everyone of color here at home. Face it, no matter how you vote, you’re going to be a party to genocide. The only available option is to vote in favor of the least amount of damage being threatened by all parties. Yes, even Jill Stein is a problem here because her stated purpose is to spoil the Democrat vote (which leads me to distrust her “concerns” over Gaza even if she does have a history of voting against Israel).
Besides which, if you’re a US citizen then you’ve been a party to genocide your entire life, between our direct interference in the elections of other countries, to straight-up installing leaders of our choice, to simply withholding aid to civilians because our government didn’t want to step on any toes. You’re living the good life because our nation kills people for profit, so don’t pretend like you’re not already a party to it.
Well, depending on my tax bracket, which I’m not revealing to you, I may spend a LOT of money on Israel and not benefiting as a party of it – at the height of the British Empire, the average British household wealth wasn’t much more than India. The left heel can grind one population while the right heel grinds another and all the profits go up and to neither heel, thus global worker solidarity. I also don’t care if Trump wins. Biden has murdered hundreds of thousands and started a process that will kill millions if not lead to WWIII… With recent events the formerly magic words “antisemitism” and “Trump bad” have lost all power
Trump says a lot of stuff. It’s usually awful. But he’s not much of a do-er
This sure does read a lot like MAGAts saying “he doesn’t mean it like that” when he has repeatedly demonstrated he means the thing he said
I’m sure he means it, I also know he’s kind of a mess and there being no philosophical underpinning to his movement beyond him won’t lend itself to an effective administration when he’s out to lunch even more than last time.
You wanna know how he’ll be worse. You’re going to prison for this post. And you’ll ‘never have to vote again’ for any choice ever. He’s straight up fucking said it. This level of stupidity is un-fucking-fathomable.
Okay, support a genocide out of fear. I won’t do that. If I go to jail for that, it is what it is. Only YOU can debase yourself by becoming evil out of fear.
Some people can’t/refuse to comprehend that this was the Democrats race to lose. The same was true in 2016, and just like then, they will blame anyone but their own party. They’ll do anything but look in the mirror.
How the Hillary Clinton campaign deliberately “elevated” Donald Trump with its “pied piper” strategy
Yes, I love how with no other thing do these people understand that THEY, not Jill Stein or Bernie Sander or Russia are why they lose. A minimally functional DNC would be CLEANING Trump’s CLOCK right now, his coalition’s in chaos, his policy proposals are unpopular, the DNC has a lack of economy issue polling problem I haven’t seen in FOREVER, which speaks to people thinking “You’re the FDR party, and the party who stopped the Nazi genocide, can’t you save us now?” And the answer is MORE CHENEY!!! And MORE GENOCIDE!!!
The New Deal was an attempt to save capitalism from the threat of socialist revolution. The Great Depression left the working class in grave financial straits, and socialism was a foreign & domestic threat. This was before the socialists were purged from labor unions, before the Cold War and the House Committee on Un-American Activities. The Democratic Party didn’t make concessions to the working class out of the kindness of its heart.
Over decades, those temporary concessions have eroded along with any threats to the capital order: the collapse of the Soviet Union and the rise the US’s neocolonial hegemony; the end of history. The Democratic party is to the right of Reagan now, and some in the Republican party are itching to remove even the trappings of democracy.
Yup, social democracy and unions were concessions capitalism stopped making once there was no competing ideology after the collapse of communism (current Chinese “Communism” isn’t even Fascism as that still had SOME social benefits). I do still think our best hope is do what we did with FDR which is “I don’t care about your shitty party, give us material long term policy concessions, and then we can talk”
(current Chinese “Communism” isn’t even Fascism as that still had SOME social benefits)
Not to imply that China is a utopia—as none can exist—but most of our understanding of it comes filtered through Cold War II propaganda, which, in the rear-view mirror, will look about as ham-fisted as the first Cold War’s propaganda does now.
Most Chinese polled actually describe their country as democratic, because they view the state as generally responsive to their needs, and for many of them that matters more than token votes. I would not describe my government as democratic, as I live in a one party rule state where the state and national party dictates the primary winners when they deign to allow them and my vote doesn’t count, and at no level is the government I pay taxes to responsive to my needs.
How would you feel if the US was sending weapons to a country that was killing your friends and family? What would you do?
I sure as fuck wouldn’t throw a fit and upset an already precarious election. There’s no “good people on both sides” bullshit here. One side is being spearheaded by a literal felonious, fascist rapist and they don’t seem to give a shit.
I’m fucking embarrassed to live in this country. It has become a complete joke. But I don’t have the luxury of country-hopping and just saying “peace out” if the worst happens next month. They don’t have to like what this government is doing regarding Israel, but potentially being part of the reason the felon could get elected isn’t going to help them or their families whatsoever.
Vote to hurt more people domestically and continue killing my friends and family… wait…
Try to do my best to protect my family by voting for Harris in attempt to keep the situation from getting worse. But I would also vocally say I wasn’t going to vote for her in attempt to persuade her.
narrator: and then, under harris, it continued to get worse.
biden admin is about to cause an regional outbreak of war. causing our friends and family to be pulled into it. all because he wouldn’t redirect a few boats to ukraine. I have 0 interest in trump but harris needs to pull her head out of her ass and commit to enforcing the leahy law w/ israel.
You love genocide so much you hope another one happens here.
What are you talking about? You’re completely missing the point. These people are acting as though they’re not going to be the target of racist assholes if the orange menace wins as a result of them not voting for Harris. Israel is now a terrorist organization as far as I’m concerned, but these dumb shits will only come out worse for wear if Dump wins.
So, I hope their righteousness bites them in the ass for not seeing the bigger picture.
They’re the target of racist assholes now and their families are being murdered now. What you hope for is that it gets worse so that they are punished for not being obedient.
No, what I hope for is that they learn a hard lesson from their stupidity. Throwing baby fits right before an election that could very well decide whether we remain (somewhat) democratic is ignorant. I’m no fan of Israel nor of what crimes they’re perpetrating. But I’m also not a fan of people pretending like this isn’t one of the biggest elections in history that could very well be decided due to their fit.
I feel for their people and their families. But I also have family whose lives are at stake with this election. I don’t agree with ANY politician completely. But I also know clearly which one is on the right side of history a whole fuck ton more than the other.
Their families are being butchered, infantilizing them as being too stupid to know what’s good for them is actually kinda racist.
I think you just want them to be punished for not bending the knee. It’s a revenge fantasy.
Good bye frying-pan, hello fire.
Context:
- I am not an american, so there may be some missing knowledge for me about the american electoral system.
- I abhor Israel’s genocide in Gaza, and I abhor the biden administration’s support of (and Harris’ seeming continued support of) the genocide.
- My understanding is that Trump is just as, if not more supportive of the genocide in Gaza, and on top of this has his sights on doing some truly terrible things in the US re: minorities, trans rights, etc
So with that context, my question is thus: It seems clear that Trump wouldn’t change anything about the genocide in Gaza, and that he would bring more evil that the current status quo. So if you’re an american voter, you obviously can’t let Trump get in. But, Harris is gross to vote for as well, even if its a “lesser of the two evils” thing. What do you do? As far as I understand its basically one or the other, you dont really have any third party to vote for right?
Who could have possibly seen this coming for a full year
Honestly it’s baffling. They wouldn’t have even had to actually do anything. They could have just let a Palestinian-American come up and say generic “we have to do better for the people of Gaza and the people of the world” type of shit and they would have even said that they endorsed Kamala. That’s it, and a shitload of people would have been at least able to lie to themselves and say “ok, she’ll do something different.” But they couldn’t even be asked to go through the motions this time.
It’s such fucking smooth brained reactionary shit, you don’t get to act like Republicans because Republicans will never vote for you, the ones that will are only ever going to do it to not vote for the current fascist, and their policy led to him.
I guess maybe the taste of David Frum’s approval is sweeter than winning an election.
This group is the single greatest gift to the 2024 trump presidency and he doesn’t know it yet!
Harris? I agree, she’s torpedoing a very easy campaign.
At least trump will be a great ally to Palestinians!
Course not, the genocidal US Empire needs to be overthrown. Join an org like FRSO or PSL.
