Valve please fix
*Develops an open online payment system that isn’t a scam.
I keep seeing this suggested and while I think that would be amazing I really don’t think its likely. These incumbents are set up to make things difficult for new entrants to their market. With political will and engagement it would be possible, but in the current world political environment these payment processors would simply buy the right politicians & court officials to ensure that any legislative challenges would be killed in the nest.
In the world we are in right now we need to instead focus on making the payment processors bend to the will of the majority not a vocal minority.
We also need to start finding strategies to fight back against paedophilia as an accepted permission slip to let the worst people in the world get away with whatever they want. If its not a disqualifying status for the office of president of the US, then why does the existence of paedophiles mean we (vast majority not paedophiles I hope) have to sacrifice our rights, our privacy, and our free speech?
Signed, thanks for the link <3
I sort of think that the only way to make visa/mastercard reverse course is to boycott the fuck out of them. Go back to using cash to make EVERY purchase. Purchase physical copies of games every time with cash. (I’ve been able to link games to my steam account purchased this way.) No longer buy skins and loot crates, and battle passes. Same goes with media. Go back to hard CDs for music/movies. Starve them of income any place you can, which would fuck with the business models of so many other companies that want your debit and cc on file for streaming services and subscriptions.
How to use Debit or e-transfer to pay for Steam games?
Hell, you can buy with cash. Walk to a local big box store and buy a steam wallet/gift card. That is assuming you live somewhere that has that option, of course.
Unless I’m mistaken, I thought Debit is usually through visa or MasterCard, for security.
Unless you mean like… A direct line to your bank account. Which is extremely risky.
I wish it was feasible to hve a large scale boycott of visa and mastercard. american express is already useless so it wouldn’t help much to include it…
Or a decentralized alternative that isn’t just used to scam people, that doesn’t eat up insane amounts of electricity to process, and is as convenient as regular money.
In reality, private corporations should not have control over money at all. Money is printed by the local government and should be controlled by the local government. Governments generally have better free speech protections than private corporations, which have none. Obviously, free speech protections are not universal, but countries can already ban content in other ways.
Money is not printed by the local government at all. Money is created by private banks through extending credit. And it shouldn’t be controlled by the government either, that’s a terrible idea.
I agree with the rest though.
Are you sure you’re from lemmy.ml…?
It’s just the first instance I found when I signed up, I didn’t know anything about its reputation.
Did some quick search and it turns out: There was controversy about revisionism and right-wing talking by the original lemmy.ml admins (and founders). Hence, everyone coming from there with fresh accounts immediately get’s the “idiot label”, is insulted and downvoted. Not a very welcoming gesture in such a supposed open, liberal and new community of geeks. - It seems, we can either change instaces, delete our accounts or ignore it.
Alternatives are not so hard, if you allow everyone to exchange and use every currency. Then, well, you need to pay someone selling in currency A - you pay your B’s to buy some A’s and you pay with them.
But there are lots of limitations on banking, some in good faith, and some to prevent mobility and make everything tracked. Possibility to track means possibility to decide who gets to do what.
I think that’s why gold standard was dropped in the first place. When all money is guaranteed with gold, and gold (still does) buy money, you do have a universal currency hard to track.
With decentralized electronic currencies the problem is - you need consensus. There’s no way around it at all. You can devise something to separate one consensus into a tree of subspaces, to make it more efficient in case an operation with a coin “123456” depends only on operations with coins from “123*” subspace, or something like that. Partitioned system. So then you don’t need consensus on subspaces untouched by your operation. But you still can’t have such an offline currency, because that depends on the finite amount of gold, while with electronic currencies double spending exists.
And I don’t know if it’s possible to make such an electronic currency anonymous for outside spectators. Zero-knowledge and other buzzwords are good, but I don’t know how one can do this.
There is already a PoW crypto that is actually private called Monero. It uses ring signatures to sign transactions and rotating public keys to keep public keys private. It also happens to be relatively stable since it’s basically the only crypto that people use as a currency (generally to buy illegal contraband online). It’s PoW though, so has the energy consumption issues.
Since it’s PoW, though, it still consumes buckets. Something I thought looked cool was Chia coin, which somehow uses hard drive space as a consensus algorithm which saves a ton of electricity, but I haven’t read the whitepaper on that, so I don’t fully understand it.
Worth also noting is that Monero also, not too long ago…
They specifically rewrote/updated the uh, block solver problem that miners solve for a reward…
They updated it to make ASIC mining basically not work.
Because they do not want it to be feasible for some rich assholes to build an ASIC mining farm.
They want mining to be distributed, done by individuals, in remotely collectivized mining pools.
Yes, it is individually, not as energy efficient as PoS system… but if you have a PoW system, that is specifically difficult to scale a large scale mining operation for…
Well, then basically no one does that.
Go lookup how much power gets thrown into Bitcoin or Eth., vs Monero.
Yep, they have much larger transaction volumes, but they are also way, way, way more energy intensive due to at least in significant part, it being profitable to run a large scale mining op.
And, not having people able to run huge mining ops, also just keeps things more stable on the value/price/txn speed front.
Monero is the least worst of all cryptocurrencies in terms of being an actual, private, secure currency.
Everything else is to a different degree, some kind of a speculative investment asset, the major ones also all happen to be orders of magnitude worse at overall energy consumption, which is largely used to just do crypto forex trading… people still do not really buy anything tangible with BTC or ETH, outside of either basically, or just actually, some kind of scam.
Make your own payment processor, Gaben. It’s the way.
Just open bank in every country should do.
Then people would have to get specific cards or crypto or whatever that aren’t Visa/MasterCard in order to buy Steam games. That, of course, is if you can get banks to agree to carry “Steam cards”. Either that, or everyone would need to buy Steam gift cards as an exclusive form of payment.
All of these are much less convenient than keeping your existing debit/credit card to pay for Steam games, and less convenience means less sales.
Yeah, but SteamPay is the future
They would have to roughly make their own form of PayPal, alongside their own bank.
If you didn’t know, PayPal technically isn’t a bank, it and Venmo use Synchrony Bank… which is an actual bank.
If they did something like that, it could work, but it would have to be at a similar scale as PayPal, that is to say, massive…
Because doing this would/could basically be the nuclear option:
MC and Visa and PayPal would/could drop them.
So, they’d have to basically develop a massive project, in total secrecy.
… Which is something Valve has arguably done a number of times, they are notoriously opaque as a company.
…
Sort of as you mention, they already have a barebones backend framework to scale up from the steam gift card / user gift card balance system.
I am… uncertain if their backend for that already does or does not include an actual legally defined bank though.
…
Problem is that this would necessitate a massively costly undertaking, as well as ongoing maintenance costs, and Valve is also notorious for basically running on what most other firms would consider a skeleton crew for the size and scope of what they do.
Or you could just transfer funds to a steam card, then with that, but all you want.
Steam does not have to only accept steampay. Tho? You fear visa and mastercard will blaclist steam?
Steam removed games because visa and mastercard threatened to blaclist it, so yeah. That’s the whole point.
Is that kinda what PayPal is, or was intended to be?
Yes
PayPal is almost as pornphobic as MastercardVisa
Yeah but PayPal’s awful. They literally arbitrarily deny you access to your own funds. At least the banks have rules.
If someone wants to pay me something they can use it literally anything other than PayPal. I don’t trust them they’ve stolen money from me before.
There was an obviously fraudulent charge on my PayPal account and I submitted a request for a refund that got rejected by their automated system. I had to email back and forth PayPal support directly as well as the business involved, showing evidence of multiple address info change requests in quick succession and other strange things about the purchase. When things stalled I threatened to bring the issue to the FTC consumer protection bureau and finally that put the fire under their asses. Eventually I got my money back but it took considerable effort to get them to do the right thing.
Needless to say after all that I deleted my PayPal account.
they’ve actually paid me after I was scammed by fake stock broker. without fussing about it too. Really easy to get payments reversed.
Either way I’d be happy to also switch to another method of payment if it were an option.
Yeah because in your case they didn’t have your money. They’re only real pain about trying to get money back, they always support businesses never customers.
So if I pay for a product and never receive it PayPal always takes the business’s side.
Even Amazon has better customer support.
I don’t trust them they’ve stolen money from me before
Same. They stole a small amount (~10 USD), but at that time that was 2-3 days worth of groceries where I live (which would have helped a lot)
actually what you want is card network, but even then that won’t do it
i gave a whole big rundown of why this is all way harder than everyone expects here
payments is an absolute minefield with so many layers of BS that gets closer to arcane wizardry and back room deals the deeper you go
So, I wanted to see if I could find a list of games that were removed. I found this https://steam-tracker.com/ which is not specific to this event, but useful to keep track.
I understand the principle but why do gamers always choose the worst examples of something to rally behind. The stop killing games petition rallying around The Crew, which lasted 10 years and was a very average game, and now this with getting behind porn games to protest censorship.
Is there really no better examples than those?
"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
-Martin Niemöller, 1952
Obviously banning porn games isn’t comparable to the holocaust, but the principle of defiance is the same. If we don’t want credit card companies to ban stuff we like, then we should also oppose them when they ban stuff we don’t care about.
They didnt ban anything, they said they’d stop doing business with steam and itch. I dont want to force companies to do business with other companies.
would you rather them do nothing? realistically for the vast majority of people they don’t care enough to do more than this, and it’s atleast SOMETHING to get the ball rolling
The goal is to stop them building up any momentum. If the credit companies get used to flexing their power like this, and steam gets used to folding to it, then things will escalate.
Right now it’s porn games. Who the hell would defend them. But it won’t end there. You honestly don’t think they would go after games that mock religion, or are trans positive?
Under the guidelines imposed by payment processors which were recently clarified by itch.io, Baldur’s Gate 3 would be banned, as it contains moments of non-consensual sex and bestiality.
CC companies have a really easy retort in that they operate in jurisdictions where these things are illegal
And the easy retort to that is that they don’t apply Chinese censorship globally. Only in China. Regional laws only apply regionally.
They have regional pricing already, regional content bans should be easy enough.
The problem here being these payment processors are global.
Right, my point is that Visa shouldn’t care if an American is buying something that’s illegal in China, if the product is not allowed for sale in China.
We want our pron and we want it now!
What is a gooner that cannot goon? This is murder.
pronpornSelf censorship is not appreciated here mate
I am ashamed, brother. Forgive me for I have sinned.
Give me the whole tiddy or give me death
But we have to oppose CollectiveShout as well, as in destroy them. They’re way worse than I thought
We knew in the aughts that this was going to be an issue when the charging companies defunded Wikileaks and Julian Assange¹ and were allowed to do so, defying public accommodations laws.
1. Yes, Assange is a git and a Russian asset (or at least has been before) but he did serve as a whistleblower against evil shit done by Bush and Obama administrations and the general aristocratic corruption at play in US federal politics. As with Chelsea Manning, he embarrassed politicians using their positions of power inappropriately, revealing that the state was not serving the public. Incidentally, ACLU in its early years was funded by USSR to cause trouble against the US state (which it was doing anyway and still does), which makes it historically (and debatably) a Soviet asset. Strange bedfellows and all that.
This is a tale that keeps repeating itself, and is why protections by the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments of the Constitution of the United States have been carved out like a holiday turkey by the US Supreme Court. We found it easy to deny unreasonable search and seizure protections from major crimes suspects, only to find that every black citizen with a gram of cannabis now no longer has those protections.
So it is with monopolies that decide they can be selective with their accommodations.
If we can’t pressure the transaction services to obey public accommodation rules since they have monopolistic power, it may be time to circumvent the issue, and support black market tactics ( Archie comic and bag of sawdust, $20, comes with free incest porn! )
These days, when discussing the usenet alt.* heirarchy, its acronym ( Anarchists, Lunatics, and Terrorists ) is now considered a backronym, a joke. I was there, and it belied a serious point: The worst of us deserve free speech, as per Larry Flynt, knowing that Hustler magazine is legally published in all its (raunchy) glory means that whatever you’re releasing to the public is safe from moral guardians and critics because they have worse stuff to shout at.
But we’re in an era of book burning, which means those would-be moral guardians are emboldened to try to reshape society in their image, in contrast to the principles of liberty and free thought. And soon ICE will expand its POI list to include liberals and wrongthinkers.
It may be time for bricks in windows and direct action against high-ranking company officials, but such behaviors carry high risks of consequences. So be careful and thorough.
In the meantime, write petitions of your grievances and sign those others have written. And remind them at this moment the public presumes petitioning them for redress of grievances will be acknowledged and acted upon. And if that turns out not to be the case, the outraged public will not simply disappear and keep to its place.
Petitions like this are meaningless unless they come with a viable solution to the duopoly in payment processing that is Visa and Mastercard.
It doesn’t matter what Valve agrees with, if they want to survive as a business they have to ultimately do what the only 2 companies that handle the payment processing tells them to do.
Valve is a big enough company that they could conceivably start their own payment provider to bypass this.
Come on, Gabe. You know you wanna.
You do know what happens to Valve Time any time someone tells Gabe to hurry up, right?
For example they could sell adult games under credits only and take CC or PayPal for credits.
This way you’re not buying adult titles with CC at all. Same way AAA deal with gambling with lootboxes.
Can’t people do this already? Just load up your Steam Wallet, and then use those funds however you want?
Cant use the steam wallet when they delist the game.
Yes but the payment processors didn’t say “you’re not allowed to sell this game with our service” they said “you’re not allowed to sell this game period or we walk”.
There’s the bullshit right there.
Consumers punting the accountability and responsibility of their demise to the next generation of consumers. I hate how feeble and weak willed we are all as a species.
we have been like this lately, but humans are definitely not weak willed or feeble at all.
shit, the right wing nuts are killing themselves over their beliefs rn.
You’re missing the point. This is not aimed at Valve, but at Visa and MasterCard. They are businesses. They primarily care about profit, not censorship. Especially when that pisses people off. They made the mistake of listening to the vocal minority of Collective Shout, so we have to let them know that. This isn’t the 80’s anymore, gaming is mainstream and there are far, far more gamers than puritanical Quakers that get the vapors at the sight of anything mature or complicated. And worst-case scenario, they are not the only payment processors, just the most convenient ones for customers and businesses. For now…
I do still wait for an answer.
It was 3 in the morning here. Relax.
Are you calling them Quakers as a derogatory slur or are they actually Quakers/Religious Society of Friends people.
I don’t get either of those contexts.
When I read “Quakers”, I just recalled Quake III Arena and thought, “that doesn’t fit”.
Quakers were some anti authority religious minority (Christian) in Scotland/England. They were notorious for their lack of respect. E.g. used “thy” instead of the formal you. (English changed since then and the informal thy fell out of use)
Quakers were
Are. They’re still around. Still a relatively big minority Christian group in the UK.
Still everyone’s favourite Christian denomination. Cool bunch.
A “slur”? No. But I was referring to the overly strict, hair-splitting kind of religious extremism that adheres to the letter of the law, not the spirit/intent.
So yes, you did. Quakers (used to be) quite progressive.
Okay…? Democrats used to support slavery.
They flipped their beliefs with Republicans. That’s a unlikely occurrence.
IANAL - Can credit card companies coordinate like this? This seems like price fixing but the other way around. Like one company wouldn’t do this alone cause it would drive customers away so they agree to do it together. Does that coordinated monopolistic behavior have president?
Yeah it seems to fit the description of a cartel… Not that it matters.
Yeah, I don’t expect the US Federal Government to do anything pro-consumer except to lower the cost of concentration camps and tear gas.
“Hi there, would you like to sign the petition?”
