I don’t like smartphones. I use a dumbphone.
But this is a wonderful initiative.
The headphone jack user to lemmy user ratio is apparently nearly 1:1
Out of curiosity… how is doing that in 2025?
I am happy with it.
i got a 4 a few years back and it’s still works great, still gets security updates. it still has the default android on it, so i’ve been looking into alternatives but it seems complicated. then again, i managed to switch to linux on pc so maybe it’s not so bad
A firmware update from Fairphone bricked mine last year. Not impressed. Apparently it’s happened to a lot of people who went to an alternative OS (Lineage) then back to stock. I just woke up one day to a paperweight on my bedside table and the support was horrendous: it took over six weeks to get any response and after another month of back-and-forth with responses taking a couple of days at a time I ended up just claiming on insurance.
Its fine, I haven’t noticed any slowdown yet, the main issue right now is that there was a screen problem that caused the OLED pixels to stay on when a black screen was present. They removed the AoD while they fix it, they’ve fixed it a few months back, but we still don’t have AoD.
I haven’t noticed any slowdown yet
?? Confused with Windows?
No? People complain that mid to low range chips on android become unable to do everyday tasks overtime. My friend has a Samsung midranger that started out smooth, but now he complains about it and after handling it I see what he means, animations are choppy and app loading is slow, sadly making it no longer useable for him.
Probably don’t want to play graphics heavy games on it. For everything else it’s pretty much like any other phone. Although of course it’s not quite as premium as flagship phones. Hardware wise, a Pixel 8 leaves it in the dust. But you can’t swap your battery or really anything on that one.
I really wish this was available in the US. I’ve found myself able to hang on to devices longer and longer. So this would be perfect. I’m only charging my battery to 80% and discharging it to 30% before charging it again just to prolong the life of the battery because that’s the first thing that dies on most devices. Having a user replaceable battery again would be an absolute godsend.
Murena does ship them to the USA, but with /e/OS preinstalled, which is great if you’re into privacy and degoogling. I don’t know how it works with US carriers though. Feel free to ask them on their forum, community.e.foundation
They ship fairphone 4 US, but not 5
/e/OS doesnt interest me because its far to iphone(esk) in design. Though i might be able to flash LineageOS instead. I also want nothing to do with Google Play Services or even Micro-G. I even think Micro-G is too much of a compromise and won’t use it. If an app won’t run because Google Play Services doesn’t exist, then I don’t run that app. If I don’t get notifications because Google Play Services doesn’t exist, then I don’t get notifications. So be it.
It’s pretty open hardware I’m sure it would be very easy to flash it to Fairphone’s OS
its far to iphone(esk) in design
It’s far too iPhone-esque in design
“It’s” has the apostrophe because it’s “it” + "is
“too” has two o’s when there’s an excess of something. More stuff = more o’s!
“esque” is uh…just how it’s spelt
iPhone capitalization is just their branding.
I only commented to help with “esque”, but saw other things I could help with. Knowledge is power!
Are you using something to automate that? If so what? Does it require root?
So my device settings have the functionality built in to stop charging automatically when the battery hits a certain percentage. And so I have set it to stop charging automatically at 81%. I also use BatteryBot Pro from F-Droid to alert me when the battery rises above 80% or drops below 30%
Several Android manufacturers have their own settings in the OS for battery longevity (automatic schedule based smart charging, or charging limits)
Don’t think it’s native in Android. Charging limits need support in the charging controller chip, plus driver support in the OS.
Yeah, same here honestly. For real, I wish it was available in the US too
There’s other phones with user replaceable batteries. I looked it up a month or so ago. They’re not as ethical as fairphone, but still better than my drawer of working phones with dead batteries.
Phones like the Galaxy Active which have terrible hardware to make them entirely unappealing outside of that one crucial feature. They do this on purpose.
I’m interested in this one also. I like the look of it. Currently a long-time Pixel user, but I’m open to other options. It will take a truly good camera to pull me away, though.
That’s honestly one thing I’m really glad about. I’m legally blind, so pictures don’t honestly matter that much to me, and so I could really give a fuck less what the camera looks like as long as it functions well enough to act as a magnifier for me to read small print on things occasionally.
Like if I go pick up one of those frozen pizzas from the store and I need to read the box to know what temperature to set the oven to and how long to put it in. I use the camera to just zoom in on the print and read it and then leave the camera.
Sometimes last year Marquez Brownlee (I think it was him, I don’t think it was Dave2D) was conducting a blind test among his audience which Photos they thought looked best. Some top brands were jumping up and down from one test scenario to another but the Fairphone ended up in the midfield constantly. True, that’s not a glowing recommendation of the camera but at least an insurance that one doesn’t get utter trash either.
Do you recall which ones scored the highest?
Not off the top of my head but I distinctly remember that the Pixel A phone scored higher than the flagship Pixel model.
I would need to look the video up but I’m also between appointments, so I can comment for a bit but not do research.
could habe been this one?
iirc, it’s typically the pixel a series, normal pixel series, the most expensive iPhone, and the Samsung flagship (or smth like that)
The Pixels tend to give really punchy contrast which a lot of people like
Do you happen to know whether this was before or after the camera update? The camera has been noticeably improved at some point.
This is a 50% DoD and is considered best possible practice to prevent lithium-ion dendrite formation.
Updoot for good advice.
Proof:
The really nice thing is that the larger phone batteries get the more you get to use at 50% depth of discharge. My phone is 5,000 mAh and so I get to use 2,500 mAh of it. Once average phones start getting 5,500 mAh, that will mean I will be able to use 2,750 mAh. 250mAh may not sound like a lot, but it can go a decently long way.
If you don’t mind clarifying, what do you mean by DoD?
Depth of Discharge, sorry – 0 to 100 would be a 100% depth (the entire battery), 30 to 80 is 50%.
What did you actually gain here? With my Pixel 7 it looks almost the same with 3.1% capacity loss per year without taking any special care of my battery. Is my phone an outlier or does it just not matter? And I almost exclusively charge with wireless.
I charge wired (high speed, 18-22W). Wireless is known to be a lot slower and theoretically gentler on the battery.
I also use the phone heavily, like a computer, I’m a “power user”, so my battery thrashing is higher than average.
Us having the same durability lost on our engine despite me driving double the miles is a good analogy.
To my knowledge wireless charging is harder on the battery because of the heat it produces.
What kind of software creates this plot?
Looks like AccuBattery.
It’s AccuBattery
This is a 50% DoD and is considered best possible practice to prevent lithium-ion dendrite formation.
Not entirely true. “Best possible” would be left plugged in and charged to 50%. Next best would be 49-51%. Then 48-52% and so on.
Also it’s not that difficult or expensive to swap a battery and not really worth the stress, in my opinion.
Well, you are absolutely correct. A 1-2% DoD is something for like, the Voyager Probe though, not a smartphone :)
If they just didn’t drop the headphone jack.
Ah, that’s a dealbreaker for me
How else would they push their mediocre reviewed Bluetooth headsets and ear buds?
my phone has a headphone jack, my phone before that had a headphone jack. Wanna guess how often I used it? Zero because I have decent bluetooth headphones
My decent Bluetooth headphones have the option to plug in a headphone cable to use them wired. I use it occasionally so I can reduce audio latency, which can be useful with gaming…and essential with rhythm games.
Okay? You’re not the one asking for a headphone jack tho??? Pointless comment.
Wanna know how many times I played a piano in the past 20 years?
Zero. Clearly they shouldn’t exist.
No, but maybe you should re-gift it to someone who does…
You’re not making sense.
Your position was that someone else is wrong to desire audio jacks, because you personally don’t need one after spaffing money on some Bluetooth earphones.
My point – which I thought was very obvious, but apparently you missed it – was that just because you don’t see the value of something doesn’t mean others don’t or that it shouldn’t exist.
I don’t have a piano, and I don’t know why you think I do.
My entire metaphor is that I don’t play or have a piano, but I recognise that it’s stupid for me to discourage others from having them solely because I personally don’t have or want one.
I’m a bit confused by your metaphor then (and thanks for the constructive insults, brings me back to the old reddit days…), since why take issue with something you dont own or use in the first place? Is the piano the headjack, or is it the bluetooth?
I didn’t insult you, I remarked that you didn’t appear to have understood my comment, and by the looks of it you still don’t.
Apologies if you’re upset by my comment. That was not my intent. I was just pointing out the absurdity of your judgemental comment.
I’m not the one taking issue with something I don’t own. That’s my entire point. You are discouraging someone from wanting something just because you personally don’t value it.
The piano is the headphone jack.
You don’t need a headphone jack, and feel the need to disparage others who do. “I don’t use a headphone jack, so you shouldn’t want a phone with one.”
Similarly, I don’t need a piano. However, I don’t go around telling people they shouldn’t want/play one, because I recognise that the things I want in my life are different to the things other people want in theirs.
It’s more like a new keyboard comes out and people all complain that it’s not a piano.
Ok I use my wired headphones
I just have a dap that can receive bluetooth. More battery life, drives literally anything to very loud, 4.4mm out and can hold it’s own music library and play it without eating phones battery or memory.
my phone has a headphone jack, my phone before that had a headphone jack. Wanna guess how often I used it? Zero because I have decent bluetooth headphones
That’s just like your opinion man
Good for you.
My last phone had a headphone jack. Wanna guess how often I used it? All the time! And that was despite having decent Bluetooth headphones.
I loved wearing my cans when mowing the lawn because it cut down on the noise, and I also used them when laying in bed since they had much better audio. I would use my Bluetooth headphones the rest of the time because they were more convenient.
My new phone doesn’t have headphone jack, and I’m super bummed.
So now you still do the exact same things but with a little dongle, right?
I’m going to lose that dongle. You say further down that I can just leave them connected, but I use my headphones with more than my phone (laptop, desktop), and those other devices have a headphone jack. Leaving it plugged in to my phone sucks too, for obvious reasons.
I don’t care about water ingress. I’m happy to give up water resistance and have a slightly thicker phone if it means I get a headphone jack, bonus points if it’s easier to open the phone for repairs.
Yup. If anything, they should add a second USB-C connector. Much more versatile and you can still charge your phone if one of them dies.
These flaky, but simultaneously bulky headphone connectors need to die. They’re inferior in pretty much every way imaginable.
Every day the bait gets lower and lower effort
USB-C to headphone jack dongles suck. You lose them easily, you can’t charge your phone if they’re connected and if you disconnect your headphones the device still behaves as if they’re plugged in. It’s so much less convenient and on the other hand there’s just no downside to having a dedicated headphone jack, so I still don’t get why they’re no longer including them.
As well as all your points (which I 100% agree with), my other issue with these dongles is simply that they stick out way more. If I buy a pair of headphones with an angled connector, I can plug them in and wrap the wire a little bit and then when the phone’s in my pocket, the wire takes up basically no space and doesn’t get smushed about by my leg.
With a dongle, I need an extra couple inches of vertical space, and because the wire/connectors are sticking directly out the phone, they get bent all over the place. Absolutely crap design. Yes 90 degree USB-C to headphone jacks exist but they take up way more space than just a headphone jack.
You lose them easily
Just leave them connected to the headphones.
you can’t charge your phone if they’re connected
Dongles with an additional usb port exist.
if you disconnect your headphones the device still behaves as if they’re plugged in.
Again, leave the dongle connected to the headphones, not the phone.
It’s so much less convenient
It is less convenient, but I’d argue not by all that much. More importantly it’s not any less convenient for the vast majority who are already only using Bluetooth.
there’s just no downside to having a dedicated headphone jack
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It’s an additional, and to most people superfluous, point for water ingress. Water damage is the most common type of damage in phones.
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It takes up space which could be utilised otherwise, like with a slightly larger battery or larger speakers or camera modules.
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It’s an additional part which needs to be manufactured, stocked, installed and purchased. Extra cost which only benefits a few. This is especially important to Fairphone in particular because they don’t use off-the-shelf components and promise to supply replacement parts pretty much indefinitely. I.e. Fairphone would have to design a custom module and then have that module in stock and manufactured specifically for them for the lifetime of each of their devices. That’s not a trivial expense.
It’s an additional […] point for water ingress.
the whole back panel is a big point of water ingress when that is not glued shut hard
It takes up space which could be utilised otherwise, like with a slightly larger battery or larger speakers or camera modules.
I never needed the additional camera modules, and there were phones with single camera module that made very nice images. the jack is also often at the top of the device where the battery doesn’t reach, but in my phone there’s also enough place for it between the bottom and the battery for a jack connector. in a fairphone
It’s an additional part which needs to be manufactured, stocked, installed and purchased. Extra cost which only benefits a few.
exact same opinion about multiple camera modules. nobody really needs them.
I can’t have them connected to my headphones all the time because I connect headphones to other devices that all have a fucking headphone jack.
- It’s an additional, and to most people superfluous, point for water ingress. Water damage is the most common type of damage in phones.
I’ve had watertight phones with a headphone jack over a decade ago.
- It takes up space which could be utilised otherwise, like with a slightly larger battery or larger speakers or camera modules.
Yes. Anything you add to a phone is a tradeoff. No shit. These points are what is usually used to justify the lack of a jack. But maybe, just maybe, they don’t save as much money as they make with selling wireless headphones and this is just an excuse? Especially the big companies like Apple or Samsung that sell their own peripherals? And this whole thing is just an excuse to sell overpriced gadgets that need to be replaced every few years because of their batteries? Maybe, just maybe, it’d be valid if consumers still had a choice and could pick phones with or without a jack and would have to pay for the luxury of using decent headphones with a few milliamperehours?
- It’s an additional part which needs to be manufactured, stocked, installed and purchased. Extra cost which only benefits a few. This is especially important to Fairphone in particular because they don’t use off-the-shelf components and promise to supply replacement parts pretty much indefinitely. I.e. Fairphone would have to design a custom module and then have that module in stock and manufactured specifically for them for the lifetime of each of their devices. That’s not a trivial expense.
Manufacturing a phone is not a trivial expense. Removing features is a business decision and a headphone jack costs money but doesn’t earn any whereas they can produce more cheaply without one. I get it. It’s just that doing so requires you to buy and use battery powered headphones that are much less sustainable than traditional magnets tied to a cable. How a company that lives off its promise to safe the world jumps on that wagon is a miracle to me. Companies that remove headphones don’t care about audio quality (which is why Sony still produces phones with audio jacks, I guess) or sustainability. Which is odd for a company like fp.
requires you to buy and use battery powered headphones
This is simply false though, we’d agreed that you are required to buy and use a dongle, and that this is an added inconvenience. But you are not required to switch to wireless headphones and your old cans haven’t suddenly become useless. People still have a choice between wired and wireless, wired has just become a little less convenient, that’s all. I completely agree with you that people shouldn’t go out buying new gadgets if their old stuff is still functional, but you can just continue using your old headphones if you get a new phone if you buy a dongle with it. Inconvenient yes, but not the end for wired headphones.
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I use mine. Bluetooth is great and all, but it’s still not the same quality as a hard-line. And they also run out of batteries.
I used mine all the time because I hate using bluetooth even though I have expensive bluetooth headphones, I have now cancelled you out
This is fine if you don’t care about having the best audio quality and lowest latency possible.
not just that. with a jack, you can use your phone as a perfect mic for your PC. its also better in terms of privacy as you don’t blast “IM HERE” signals that every other shop has a tracking device for logging them. I would guess majority of bluetooth audio devices don’t even support mac address randomization
I would guess majority of bluetooth audio devices don’t even support mac address randomization
Wouldn’t that be a nightmare for pairing? The device wakes and tries to connect to the last device it was paired to, only to find unknown vendors
mac randomization is a defined thing in the BLE standard (afaik bluetooth classic does not have it, but maybe that changed in BT 5.1?). It’s not truly random, it involves cryptography so that paired devices can recognize each other in the end
I feel like latency only matters if you’re realtime gaming. In any other situation the video just syncs to the audio.
As for quality AptX-HD is decent for low bitrates even at 24-bit, and LDAC remains excellent for anything higher.
Unless you’re listening to high-res FLAC (in which case, god help your earphone impedance when listening to normal songs), I doubt the loss is audible
Boo this man!
…are they booing me, or are they booing headphones?
You. They’re booing you.
Help me, Smithers!
😔
I use my backup headphones when my Bluetooth headset has run out of battery
I wish importing phones were an option for my country, but no. Even if I secured a way to bring it here, it takes 1000 dollars just to register its IMEI to use here.
Şu an yurtdışından telefon getirtecek olsam IMEI değiştirir geçerdim. iPhone için mümkün olmayabilir. Bu hale getirenler utansın.
Shame there is no Graphene OS support for it
Graphene isn’t the best choice for everything. It doesn’t have good backup solutions nor device to device backup or anything solid for complete snapshots and when restoring your so called backups you’ll realize what all it truly lacks.
It’s hardened and has a lot of security and privacy features but none of that matters if your opsec is bad, or it’s feature set doesn’t match your threat model. I am not knocking it at all. It just isn’t the white knight for every case.
Seedvault worked fine for me when I moved phones last year.
I agree. Seedvault works but if you really use the project and its features as intended you’ll see problems I listed above which is not complete I’m just tired there are plenty more.
You’ll start to see the problems and the lack of value add from graphene. I’d feel much safer on a Linux machine and correct backups, under most threat models and opsecs, even without all the advanced security features than stuck locked into graphene as a half baked project. Which is saying something, and why I said it depends on your opsec and threat model I wasn’t bashing the project it just is not the end all be all right now.
The year of Linux is upon us. Soonish*
Its had more dev time across the board which is why I would choose it first and foremost. What it lacks in certain features its fundamentally more complete. Regardless of distro mostly.
What’s wrong with Seedvault?
Seedvault works, I’ve restored from backups multiple times.
However there are still many parts of overall data that aren’t fully backed up.
Certain app data doesn’t get saved.
Settings are but not in entirety requiring manual rechecks of all settings and reconfiguration if needed. Which saves no time because then you cannot trust it fully for what was and was not altered meaning you then must asses everything which took away the total value, and adds a layer of distrust.
Profiles must be backed up individually which creates a giant hassle to restore/maintain consistent backups, which also requires different drives for each profile to be recognized correctly.
App lists are impartial requiring a wrote down list or some form of rememberance that’s not reliant on the backup list of installed apps.
I can go on with more its late in my time zone and I have to sleep so. It’s a good project and has merit. It is just not where it should be to really be useful at scale. I am aware of the experimental setting to create a more comprehensive backup. Even with it checked on the backups are not complete. Thus the use of Graphene while a great project has definite major flaws. If they implement device to device backups it would be a game changer. Not high up on their list of to dos though.
Thanks for the info. I have not really tested Seedvault myself so this is all good to know.
Ironically, one of the main reasons I switched to GrapheneOS was because Google’s backups were so frustrating and I was hoping Seedvault would be more comprehensive.
It is and its not. You just have to know the limitations, some of which I mentioned. Try it for yourself and to a restore then report back you’ll understand it’s very cumbersome in some ways.
Don’t expect to be able to wipe a phone and restore from backup like you never left it’ll get you closeish. So you need to ask yourself is that good enough for you with your opsec and threat model? To only have part of your data back…
In its current form its just a hassle right now to create backups on seperate drives (not even partitions on one drive I tried, as seedvault and the OS only identifies the drive you don’t get to choose) for each profile plugging them into your phone individually, backing up each one, and keeping them up to date often, it’s a lot! I have swapped several pixels and profiles I hate doing it everytime it really is a subpar process. I AM ALL EARS FOR A BETTER SOLUTION. Having to piece your data back together for it to be complete again doesn’t sit right with me to be considered backed up correctly. It leaves you vulnerable and some of us don’t like being locked into any specific device or situation like having your life on a device and being at the mercy of it for any reason you might encounter. I’m actually moving away from graphene due to these issues. It’s just not there yet.
Its one thing to read the documentation and another to have experience in using the software first hand which is why I got downvotes, over time, daily those are the ones who have experienced what I mean. I just wanted people to be aware that it’s not the saving grace yet.
Imagine the real world use case of backups and maintenance which should be done as often as possible as to lose as little data as possible. Phone gets broken, stolen, confiscated, what have you. Having reliable backups is the difference between starting over and continuing with what could be your entire life in this digital age.
I’m being bugged by Seedvault caring for apps that have a ‘don’t backup app data’ flag.
I could live with that being a default setting, which can be manually overwritten in the Seedvault settings for these apps.
Apps not allowing (in case of Seedvault: encrypted) full backups while offering no or bad built-in backups is just cumbersome when trying to have current backups.afaik their device-to-device mode should be able to workaround that. it can still be saved to storage
I believe you’re right, but that doesn’t solve the problem of making routine full backups, which would come in handy if the device gets lost or breaks.
One can hope future versions of Seedvault care less about what apps want.
Agreed.
That said, it would be awesome to have an alternative to Pixel devices if you do want GrapheneOS.
The project has sort of silo’d itself into security which is only one part of the equation. Rather than overall completeness, functionality, maintainability. It’s lacking major fundamental feature sets. Thus its more of a tails meets whonix/Qubes right now not a all in one bow wrapped package to save the day for its consumer base. Many many other issues/bugs I didnt list. Perhaps I’ll add more tomorrow. If everyone wants.
And that’s exactly what it should be IMO. I prefer a project with narrow goals to one that does everything, but poorly.
If I want backups, I can use something like Syncthing. When moving to a new device, I prefer to install everything from scratch because I generally don’t use most of the apps I have anyway. I don’t put anything critical on it, so why would I need to restore from a snapshot?
If you want those features, it’s not the ROM for you.
I just want a simple device with a long support cycle and no spyware, and GrapheneOS delivers. I have Google Play Services on a sperate profile, and my main profile is completely free of that crap. I want a Linux phone, but every phone has serious limitations, like missing audio, sketchy calls, or completely broken camera. GrapheneOS is the closest experience I have to that.
If I want backups, I can use something like Syncthing.
syncthing cant backup your device. that is a file transfer app. for backing up the device you need either appmanager and root, or good old dd and root (and a half shutdown system)
I don’t put anything critical on it, so why would I need to restore from a snapshot?
- because not everyone uses the device the same way as you
- snapshots are always complete. file based backups are not because of metadata changes. seedvault even less because it picks apps except this and that, and an unknown subset of the settings, and shared storage for the files that you have enabled
If you want those features, it’s not the ROM for you.
currently there’s no ROM on which you could execute a real backup, thanks to encrypted storage with keys stored in TPM. TPM sees a change, and now your backup is a useless blob of practically random data
I just want a simple device with a long support cycle and no spyware, and GrapheneOS delivers.
as does calyx os
I have Google Play Services on a sperate profile, and my main profile is completely free of that crap. I want a Linux phone, but every phone has serious limitations, like missing audio, sketchy calls, or completely broken camera.
with microg, this can be done on calyx too. there’s even a few options on how much you want google to know.
and if your point is that not all apps work with microg, then you would never actually move to a linux phone because that will never have google play services (hopefully, else something has gone way wrong), probably not even microg or apps that would depend on it
syncthing cant backup your device. that is a file transfer app.
That’s exactly what backup software is, it’s keeping copies of important data in multiple places so if one dies/gets stolen, you have backup copies.
I can tell syncthing to copy all my important data to another device.
I don’t need all the installed apps or a disk image, that’s way overkill. I could do that, but it’ll get way more than I need.
as does calyx os
You’re right, Calyx OS is also a good choice.
I went with GrapheneOS for two reasons:
- sandboxed Google Play vs microG - no option AFAIK to disable it
- faster security updates
My goal is a baby step toward Linux phones, not compatibility with Android. I only have Google Play Services on a separate profile, and I spend 95% of my time on the profile without it. The less I rely on Google Play Services, the easier it’ll be for me to transition to Linux alternatives.
Better app compatibility is a nice side effect. I have a handful of apps that rely on Google Play Services, and there’s a decent chance they wouldn’t work on microG. But I rarely use them and I’m willing to go without if it means I can have a Linux phone.
sandboxed Google Play vs microG - no option AFAIK to disable it
you mean disabling microg?
if so you can refuse installation at profile setup. if you make a new profile, you can choose to install it there. then in microg settings there are some toggles for functionality
btw, which of your apps nead google services?
You could always go for /e/os though
/e/os is a security dumpster fire. It’s even worse than stock Android. Stay away from it.
Can you explain?
Every other version of Android gets security updates out within a couple weeks of release at most.
/e/OS users are lucky if they get them within a couple months.
No offense, but that’s not what a security dumpster fire is. Security updates are important, of course, but they are also not the biggest deal.
In fact, I bet that the vast majority of users (on Android or otherwise) are lagging way behind in updates anyway.
So an OS that boasts about the “privacy” it offers… Doesn’t need routine and consistent security updates?
Sure thing bud, keep going on like you know what you’re talking about.
Generally speaking privacy and security are related but not really linked to each other. Google services might be very secure, but a privacy nightmare for example. In this particular case, even more, because the chances that using a “googled” phone will mean data collection (I.e. privacy issues) are almost certain, while the risks we are talking about are much more niche and - as I elaborated on another comment - in my opinion not really in most people threat model.
I would like to hear your perspective instead, because I am not really into using authority arguments, but as a security engineer I believe to at least understand well the issue with security updates, vulnerabilities and exploits. So yes, I do think to know what I am talking about.
That is not the only issue, it’s just one of the more major ones that shouldn’t be dismissed like it’s nothing. Another major one is the unlocked bootloader. You can take a look at all the Android ROMS here.
I think people should treat carefully when changing the OS of a mobile device. Changing your OS to something less secure just becauseyou want to shove it to Google and Apple is not enough to warrant it. Better to stay with something safe that you know than with something insecure like /e/OS.
Luckily we have Graphene so you can actually switch to a more secure and private OS that is not made by an American corporation hungry for data.
I am not dismissing it, I am saying that is not as big as you make it to be. Most users lag behind in updates anyway, besides using minimal and trusted applications, the outside exposure to exploitation is relatively small, for a device without a public address. I am not the one APTs are going to use the SMS no-click 0-day against.
Similarly for the bootloader issue. The kind of attacks mitigated by this are not in most people threat models. They just are not. As someone else wrote, it’s possible to relock the bootloader anyway with official builds (such as my FP3). But anyway, even for myself the chance that my phone gets modified by physical access without my knowledge is a fraction of a fraction compared to the chance that someone will snatch the phone in my hand while unlocked, for example (a recent pattern).
If these two issues are what prompts you to call a “security dumpster fire”, I would say we at least have very different risk perceptions.
/e/OS has official builds for the fairphones, you can re-lock the bootloader there, afaik. At least according to this: https://doc.e.foundation/devices/FP5/install
You can also buy the phone directly with /e/OS pre-installed & closed bootloader, from what I read on the fairphone website.
good on you for asking the question. OP does not know what he is talking about
Thanks for the answer. How does it compare against other Android forks in terms of security update speed?
Also, isn’t Fairphone once also criticised for falling behind on Android security updates or was I misremembering this?
Also correct, though I am not particularly familiar with Fairphone. Seems like they are down to bimonthly updates, if that.
*We are including two months of security patching in a bi-monthly maintenance release.
And it doesn’t support US bands for TMobile
For 4G. 5G is fine.
no other manufacturer than google ever will have graphnene os support. their requirements cannot be met unless you are a tech gian, and with exceptionally good connections to the hardware manufacturers
Fairphone brand is basically saying to everyone “Hey look at our generic Android phone with everything you need from Google, including AI stuff and data collection” and when you ask if you can have a privacy friendly features they basically say “Nope, we just do a phone with replaceable parts, that’s all. Don’t ask for more”
And it would be such good marketing strategy “replaceable parts + privacy”
At least someone commented CalyxOS supports it which seems to be a good alternative to GrapheneOS
It has CalyxOS support though. A decent alternative.
Agreed. I was debating between CalyxOS and GrapheneOS, and I ended up w/ GrapheneOS because I ended up picking the Pixel 8 due to the long software support cycle. If I picked any other phone, I would’ve ended up w/ CalyxOS.
Both are great projects.
Indeed. I am currently waiting for Calyx to be released for my phone, it’s a Moto g84, and support seems to be coming along nicely.
I probably would have picked a pixel if I could, but they are not available for sale in my country.
Was thinking the same thing. Not Graphenes fault though but a failing of OEMs to provide what’s necessary.
The biggest downside of Fairphone IMO is that they don’t maintain their hardware support in LineageOS and for the retail product then branch development off, add a bit of custom branding and adapt whatever Google requires these days. It would greatly improve custom ROM support in general.
The lack of an FM radio and headphone jack make it unusable for me.
Are there phones available these days with both of these things?
Yes, a quick search on GSM Arena shows 189 phones with a radio and headphone jack. That’s just phones from the last year.
Interesting, I very rarely see headphone jacks and had noe clue that FM radio in phones was a thing still. Nice resource, bookmarking that for later!
Yes
yes, even some that never mention the radio have one (n10 5g us model).
Anyone know what the bootloader unlock process is like for Fairphone? I know they support it, but does it take 7 days like OnePlus or constantly have issues like Motorola?
They have a howto on their support page
https://www.fairphone.com/en/bootloader-unlocking-code-for-fairphone/
And i just tested it, you get the unlock code immediately.
I don’t understand why this requires a code rather than a toggle in developer settings like a Pixel. That doesn’t SRM like openness and a commitment to treating users fairly since they could change their policy at any time.
I’ve read that it’s because fairphone has to pay a fee for each unlocked device, but it sounds a little weird so no idea if that’s real.
but, it can be worked around if you don’t want to get logged. the system just wants a 200 OK response from the server, I think through HTTP (not S), so you can set up an MITM proxy or custom DNS and web server to always give this response without using their website. that’s what I did too.
you can read more here: https://forum.fairphone.com/t/oem-unlock-input-verify-code/56231
edit: and also here: https://forum.fairphone.com/t/unlocking-bootloader-offline/95573
and the connection is actually HTTPS, but does not validate it against a globally trusted root certificate, so it can easily be served by a local server and a self signed cert
Oh, nice. That was my question. I wish it didn’t require a code at all, but at least you don’t have to wait a week like some other manufacturers. Thanks!
First thing I did on my Fairphone 4 was to flash iode OS on it.
I don’t know much about bootloaders and such, but I was done and happy within an hour after purchasing it.
Also, if I am not mistaken, I think warranty is still valid if you run custom ROMs.
Fairphone is very pro openness 😄
Wait the Fairphone has a locked bootloader? The mind wobbles.
Else anyone with physical access can install spyware without anyone noticing. Thats a bit of security which most people probably won’t notice but can be deactivated in a minute by any owner, so I don’t mind.
I have the fairphone 4 and have had no issues. As long as a fairphone exists I don’t see any reason I should switch.
Have you had to replace any parts yet?
I had to replace parts on my FP5. It fell on very bad asphalt at speed whilst cycling in a foreign country. The glass on the camera modules scattered. Display protector broke and the case got some good damage. I was instantly calmed realising it is a FairPhone and knowing I could order replacement parts.
Repairs were trivial and it feels good to have created just a tiny amount of e-waste instead of a large amount. The black aluminium case has some war wounds (scratches) reminding me of the trip.
Knowing it’s so easy to repair, do you think it’s worth bothering with a case and/or screen protector?
You defentently need a case for the FP5. Without its very slippery.
If you hate cases so much, sure. But why create e waste and waste your money when you can avoid that by using a case?
FWIW, I have the FP3 for now more than 4 years. I have only replaced the battery 6 months ago. A case would have been extra waste (to produce the case itself) in my case, and probably will be trashed after as it might not fit the next phone.
If you can keep it safe then cool. I cannot take that risk as my current screen protector is already cracked a little within a year lol.
I don’t bother with a case for this reason, haven’t broken anything so far. Just replaced the battery a couple times.
500 Euro for what amounts to a midrange phone still seems like consumerism to me. Better to get an older phone and hold onto it. My Moto G4 lasted 7 years before obsolescence and physical wear caught up with it. I wonder how many current Fairphones will still be in use in 2034.
Turns out ethical wages and materials cost money. I agree that older tech being more ethical as whatever ‘cost’ is may have was paid by the first owner.
I still have a made in Finland Nokia N9 that cost $200 around 15 years ago. Too bad it became unusable in the US with the shutdown of the 3G network, wherever that was.
Better to get an older phone and hold onto it.
That’s sort of how they’ve marketed their phones over the years. Fairphone exists as a fairer alternative to brand new phones, but the company has always been quite clear that the most environmentally friendly phone you have is your current one and that you should keep it for as long as realistically possible.
Really wish Fairphone would come to the US. I’d spend the money on it, but they only half-ass sold the last gen phone here on the US.
I don’t even understand why. Most Qualcomm, Quectel, and other radios support worldwide 4G and 5G bands now. Even if they didn’t officially sell it here but had a variant that supported US bands you could import, I’d be happy.
I can send you one probably, but you know… tariffs (and processing fees).
I appreciate it, but I just got a new phone because I needed a new one recently. I wish it could have been something like a Fairphone, but thems the breaks.
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Unfortunately Telecomms in Australia seem to have a pissing contest on who can screw consumers more, America or Aussie companies.
I’m waiting on a Framework Phone.
Do you really think they’ll make one?
Yes eventually they will. Might be still 5 years away tho
Aaaand it’s impossible to buy in the US. Even if USians want to do the right thing, we’re not permitted.
Of course, not being a billionaire is illegal here.
That’s cool. Let me know when it gets support for GrapheneOS and finds it’s headphone jack again.
The answer is likley never, GOS devs dont trust Fairphone devs (due to poor security practices) and Fairphone devs are unwilling (in some cases unable) to meet the extremely high standards for GOS.
Big red flag:
Doesn’t that basically equate to “yep, this is an android phone?”
Yup. My current one is dying and I’m using it almost always wired to a charger or battery. I don’t care how badly they try to waste my battery, I’m not buying a new Android phone ever. If this one dies, I’m prepared to not use a phone until there’s a reasonably priced Linux phone.
Just replace the battery then. Most phone shops have the ability and tools to do it in about an hour to 3 hours.
I’m afraid. Lol phones with non replaceable batteries suck.
They are replaceable, it just takes some tools and work, both of which you can get at the phone repair shop.
What a non sequitur.
GrapheneOS doesn’t have AI crap.
I’d just install another OS to begin with. But again, I’d reaaally like it to be GrapheneOS. And then again, Pixels also come with all that crap (and much more) enabled by default.
Graphene doesn’t. The way I see it is like buying a laptop with pre-installed Windows, and replacing the OS.
No headphones jack.
Trash generating hypocrites.
HMD are doing everything better than fair phone now with their latest models. More repairable, more flexible, long term support and updates.
Cheaper too.
Are HMDs really more repairable? Most recent phone they had that tried to be repairable was Skyline and even there it was pretty limited. And btw that one didn’t have a jack either.
No headphones jack.
Most people use bluetooth devices nowadays. Few have wired headphones, which they can still use by using a €2 adapter that you just leave plugged to them all the time. Then there is a 0,1% that complains on the internet demanding that phone companies keep a extra hole on their devices for a specific purpose another hole can already do. Oh and HMD phones don’t have it either, at least for what i could find.
More repairable
They seem about the same (glass, back, speaker, battery, port), but on the ff5 you can replace the cameras as well.
more flexible
Tf does that mean? You can bend it?
long term support and updates.
Liar? Fairphones have like 8 years of security updates and major android version upgrades. HMD gives like 3 years on their latest devices… What are you talking about?
Cheaper too.
I’ll give you that, but it really ends there.
HMD phones are not a bad choice at all but if the affordability isn’t first in the list I don’t see how they would make a better purchase over a Fairphone.
I don’t know anything about HMD so I can’t add to that. However I’d like to correct you regarding the headphone jack. The people that like it so much are generally privacy enthusiasts. Leaving your Bluetooth on makes you easily trackable. Using USB-C headphones helps in that regard but expediates wear and tear on the port by a lot and often makes the phone unusable a lot quicker, because you obviously need it for charging. Audio jacks generally have very low wear and tear. Hope that helps you understand we’re not crazed evangilists hanging on to the past for the sake of it.
expediates wear and tear on the port by a lot
How much is a lot? And good thing the usb-c port is a $15 user replaceable part then. Also dongles with two connectors exist if you specifically want to charge and use headphones at the same time.
so everybody who wants to use 3.5mm headphones on phones should just replace their port every quarter? lmao
Every quarter? This is why I asked what was meant by ‘a lot’. If you’re going to claim that the extra wear caused would be this extreme I’d like for that to be at least somewhat substantiated.
having only one battery that needs to be charged, one way to get the headphones disconnected (unplugging), and the greatly reduced battery drain by not needing Bluetooth on should be good enough reasons for 3.5mm jacks to stay.
Another hole can carry analogue audio? I think you’re referring to a USB port when you say “another hole can do the same job”, but obviously it can’t carry analogue audio. You need an external DAC to convert the digital audio it can output, to analogue. (The phone already has an internal DAC so this is dumb)
And then of course you run into the issue of being unable to use it while the phone is charging because you have 1 port for 2 different jobs
Not all of us like the idea of wireless earphones, there are still many who prefer to spend good money on nice IEMs or headphones that don’t have to be charged to work, rather than overly expensive, subpar wireless options that will inevitably turn into e-waste when the batteries can no longer hold a charge.
Not to mention the ubiquity of the 6.5mm/3.5mm jack, this is standard across every piece of music gear you can think of from synthesizers to electronic drum kits to guitars, pedals, and interfaces.
You certainly don’t walk into a recording studio and find USB C ports to plug into
idc about hmd, but usbc for audio is just shit. Ive tried various setups, I have a dac for phones, i have iems with usbc and yet the port is just not constructed for usage on the go where i preferably use in ears. So in total: aux got taken, instead we use the charging port and if we actually do that the ports gonna be dead in a year maximum if you havent aldready ripped apart your in ears because of these darn constant disconnects. I do have wiems that are more expensive than my iems and yet bluetooth audio transmission still sucks compared to cables and I long for the moment where i finally have a phone with aux again so my ears dont have to constantly bleed (wildly exaggerated obv). Last time i almost bought a Sony because of aux, but theyre just way too expensive for the software support they deliver. I just hope in a few years time theres a value phone built for me :).
long term support and updates.
Three years of security upgrades is very bad, in my opinion. Google offers seven years, and Fairphone offers eight.
