You had me until “unbiased therapy”
He’s somewhat gotten the point and it’s definitely not the worst reaction but be prepared for things not to be smooth and for the acceptance and understanding never to come. This may not be the case, but from my experience, those who state that they would rather you explore other options first will always have an alternative option that is perceived by them to be a better outcome.
Just be ready to cut this person out of your life. I really hope it doesn’t come to that for you, but I’ve had people like that which still fail to accept and understand after multiple diagnoses and over a decade later.
Well no, but I guess supportive transmedicalism is a step in the right direction, even if it’s still quite fucked.
(Equivalent being back in the day seeing being gay as being a mental disorder).
Sorry, but I have an honest question. Isn’t gender disphoria a mental issue? And isn’t it addressed with medical procedures? I don’t understand the consequences of transmedicalism.
Some societies and cultures allow for forms of changing your gender, or have other gender roles that fulfil these (Fa’afafine, Hirjas etc.).
The concept of “mental disorder”/“mental illness”/“mental issue” just like “gender” is a social construct.
In a society where these other genders or changing genders is not commonly allowed, like modern western cultures, someone who doesn’t fit into the binary vision of gender might be seen as having a “disorder”.
Just like back in the day, in a society where gayness is erased and does not exist, a gay person might be seen as having a mental disorder.
But if we say being transgender is just a normal part of human diversity, like being gay — which I hope is the case, then it is not a “disorder”.
It’s very important to note that what is considered a “disorder” or not is very much a social construct.
I understand that and agree, but in the case of many trans people, they go after medical procedures that go beyond plastic surgery. So I don’t think it’s perfectly comparable with being gay
I think there is confusion about what transmedicalism encompasses and what it does not.
Transmedicalism is the view that the mental state of transgenderism is caused by “gender dysphoria” a mental illness.
Gender affirming care does not require transmedicalism, and in fact many transmedicalists are against gender affirming care.
Heard a comedian say the other day that hair implants is a form of gender affirming care for cis guys :)
Dude did the work. Well done.
That’s a good dad.
Current best practice AFAIK is exactly this. Gender care includes psychiatric/mental health, and occupational (ish) therapy that leads up to surgery after a lot of care. Gender dysphoria, like many things has an internal and external layer where society sets expectations and acts on us based on our gender expression in ways that can be quite brutal. Some folks may end up enby or smth or find something acceptable without surgery, which has its downsides. However none of this should preclude surgery as an option, as evidence has shown it is a highly effective treatment in our current context.
This is the biomedical view that focuses on dysfunction and suffering of the individual and addressing that dysfunction. There is a more philosophical/existential view worth understanding to balance the biomedical view. It is one that acknowledges that we are who we are and we develop the way we develop. If we are to flourish as humans and as a society, it must be through compassion for each others’ experiences as human subjects struggling to figure ourselves and each other out. Imposing one’s worldview on others by force is to treat humans as objects through manipulation. That’s mistaken and harmful. Compassion doesn’t mean you don’t stand up to bullies or you don’t resist injustice or you don’t fight back in self defense. It means you’re always seeking to humanize rather than dominate. This can mean supporting trans folks in accessing care or it can mean helping them to consider all their options.
It sure is a start. He cares for you, but he’s still worried you might regret a carefully planned decision you slowly came to terms with before telling him… Tell him you appreciate the support, and guide him as much as you can. :)
Honestly everyone needs therapy, but when you’re trans, you just *know*. You know deep down in your shivers, in your half-light. You know in a way that cis people can articulate in language, but will never truly be able to feel, to understand, to appreciate, to resonate.
Idk. There have been cases where people have regretted having the treatment. They are few compared to the number of people who think that the treatment was the best thing they ever did, but they do exist. I guess that being trans might cause some effects, like people being mean and bigoted or just the stress of knowing that you don’t fit in to what society seem to expect you to. I think prioritizing mental support through therapy might be a good start before the physical treatment. It will be good for both those that would regret the treatment but also for those that will get all sorts of weird interactions with others during the transition.
You’re not transgender so stop gatekeeping. Medically transitioning is still not accessible enough all around the world. We don’t need this transphobic fearmongering about “needing a therapist” when it’s often not required and can be expensive to see. The regret rate for medically transition is astonishing low, We don’t have this same concern for people seeking nose jobs or hip surgeries which have much higher regret rates.
Some studies suggest that rates of regret have declined over the years as patient selection and treatment methods have improved. In a review of 27 studies involving almost 8,000 teens and adults who had transgender surgeries, mostly in Europe, the U.S and Canada, 1% on average expressed regret. For some, regret was temporary, but a small number went on to have detransitioning or reversal surgeries, the 2021 review said.
I’m not trying to gatekeep, I’m just saying that therapy might be a good idea. As you wrote, 1 % experience regret, though I would have guessed at half of that. These people exist and every effort should be made for them to not need to regret their decision. But the other side of the argument is also true: the access to gender affirming care needs to be improved. Especially I feel that there is a stigmatization when someone seeks treatment and that’s really bad.
As for nose jobs, the cosmetic surgery industry is wild and not at all regulated enough. Of course one should need to see a therapist before getting a nose job.
Regarding the costs of healthcare, I find it repulsive that companies make money from people’s misery. Gender affirming care, including therapy, should be payed by the state.
No, you’re gatekeeping. A lot of people who may regret their transition likely do so because they face a lot of transphobic ostracization from the communities they live in. Instead of saying “we need a therapist” before allowing doctors to approve medical transition, you should say we need to improve mental health access.
Come on now. Having therapy should not be a requirement, but it should be encouraged. When someone has the courage to come out as trans, it can be a very difficult time. Having a professional that helps people who experience gender dysphoria can be a life saver. How many trans people have to go it alone in the beginning of their journey? If they have the means, I’d recommend it. Just reading studies or participating in trans spaces, for some folks, is not enough.
I mean, if you fit in with all the norms that society sets and you feel happy, you don’t need mental health care. However, as soon as you don’t fit in or if you don’t feel happy, it might be a good idea to see a therapist to get help to deal with these feelings. Of course, the therapy should be free if you need it and everyone that even remotely feel the need to talk with someone should get to see a therapist.
I’m saying that being trans seems hard. I don’t envy those who are, because of all the stress and transphobia. I still maintain that it could be a good thing to talk with a therapist when meeting hardships in life, and untreated gender dysphoria must be a hardship. I don’t want anyone to feel like talking with someone about their problems is a negative thing. We all need to vent and be seen for the individuals that we are, especially when we go through rough times.
If that makes me a gatekeeper, I guess I am one. Personally, I think I’m just arguing for mental health care for all.
You use very wonderful language. When you say “half- light” what does that mean to you? Please elaborate.
Isn’t that what Pennywise would use to incapacitate the kids?
I think you are referring to deadlights
deleted by creator
There’s a long road waiting for him, but seems like he is walking in the right direction now.
I keep trying to tell these goof balls, I didn’t go out and “Cut off my penis” because whatever they think the Left Wing Fox News told me to, VARIOUS DOCTORS signed off on it.
I even had one older gentleman tell me that he “Doesn’t believe in all this transgender nonsense”, but that he’s starting to come around, because after hearing me out he claimed all the possible diagnoses he had written down for what he thought was ailing me were “Things that [he] typically only see[s] in women.”
Therapy is probably a good idea regardless. If you spent your life “in the wrong body”, I would imagine it would still leave you with thousands of small mental wounds that add up. Granted, finding the right therapist can be an ordeal.
Yeah, whether or not someone believes they have gender dysphoria shouldn’t affect if they get therapy or not. I’d recommend it regardless, it helps a bunch.
It’s a start. He’s still thinking that the dysphoria can be addressed on the mental side, not the body side.
Ask him how he would feel if he woke up with big sagging breasts tomorrow. He’d be afraid to go outside. He’d wear bulky clothes if he had to. He’d look in the mirror and not recognize himself. He would start calling his doctor to see what could be done. Get him to visualize this and then tell him That’s EXACTLY what it’s like. Ask him if he woke up with big sagging breasts, if instead of calling his doctor, he might consider going to therapy to make sure he isn’t just experiencing some other mental issues that are preventing him from being happy with his knee-knockers.
I mean… It’s a feeling. Dysphoria is a complex thing, it’s not as clear cut as, let’s skip right to surgery.
https://www.healthline.com/health/transgender/can-gender-dysphoria-go-away
Therapy and/or hormone treatment certainly might make enough difference to not require surgery anymore.
Let’s not pretend that the act of transitioning is something that should be taken lightly. There are trans people who have been wholly unprepared for actually living life as the opposite gender and kill themselves. For example, I’m seeing cases of Female to Male trans saying they were completely unprepared for how lonely it is to live as a man compared to a woman. So for some of them that negative feeling of loneliness ended up being even more detrimental and unpleasant to them than the original dysphoria.
The thing is - no one skips right to surgery.
I don’t want to minimize the experience of detransitioners, but they’re extremely rare. They just get platformed more, it’s a narrative that the media wants (especially the “Irreversible Damage” narrative - that trans men are little lost girls mutilating ourselves in response to misogyny). The vast vast majority of people who detransition/regret usually do so because of societal factors - eg, that transitioning can often cost you your job, social support network, put you in danger…
I’m entering middle age and have been on testosterone my entire life. I have still had doctors try to talk me into going off. Heck - to even get started, I had to lie about my sexual orientation - no one was giving me shit if I didn’t start off with “when I was four years old I threw a fit every time they made me wear dresses and only ever play with GI Joes.”
Yeah and even more people have killed themselves over the dysphoria and the world not listening to them or validating their right to make a choice.
Yes there is a complex mass of issues that can be difficult to separate out. But I ultimately think 2 things:
-
a trans person’s certainty about their body is more important than my doubts about their mental state
-
the complex mass of issues is partly created by a world that doesn’t validate their choices and condition. You can give them as much information as possible but then you have to back off and let them choose. It’s ultimately their body, their risk, their choice. There are examples where it doesn’t work out. Okay, fine, but don’t make everything about those. Most health care interventions carry some risk.
-
It’s a good start. It’s where everyone starts I think. Even trans people themselves first need to do a lot of soul searching and/or therapy in order to understand what they feel and why. It’s even harder for people on the outside to comprehend.
I see literally nothing wrong with this parents response; wanting your child to check all the boxes before making a life changing decision is good parenting.
One could always nitpick tone, but perfection is the enemy of good enough.
The one thing I will add is that the soul searching isn’t always visible, which was what made it so hard for my family/friends to understand when I came out. To them, it seemed like a very sudden and “snap” decision, when the reality was that I had spent years at that point reflecting and doing soul searching, but was so terrified about what it meant and how they might see me, I never told anyone about it.
I definitely think that this dad did a solid job overall, and even as an adult transitioning in their late 20s, I would have loved this response vs how my parents handled it…
I’d say they are making an attempt. They are researching and making that effort. The first time I met someone who was trans, I just didn’t understand it at all. They let me ask a ton of questions. My opinion has changed over the years because of that.
Good luck on your journey.
My mom made no such effort, and gave up on calling me Jessica a couple of years ago. I’d cry my eyes out if she had sent me what your dad sent you. I know that she loves and cares about me, but she also refuses to see me as how I truly am. It’s such an odd experience, hurtful at many times. But she also bought me a car last year, and has offered to help me bridge the gap when I was off work for 2 weeks due to an injury. In spite of her non-support, I love her dearly.
What I’m getting at is that familial relationships are nuanced. Give your dad some credit for taking the time to research what being trans is about. Of course there is more to it than just the medical side of things, but he is trying.
Your age also factors into this as well.
My stepfather made several transphobic statements while he was alive. If he was still with us, I’d bet his conservative worldview would have changed a bit. I still hold him in high regard, because I know that he loved me and just wanted what he thought was best.
TL;DR: Family relationships are hard, and it seems like your dad is trying.
Sounds like he’s done a lot of research and has kept an open mind. He’s also wise in suggesting to go into therapy and see if there may be other causes/co-causes.
Anecdotal, but a friend of mine has ADHD and once she started treatment for that she also lost like 95% of her feelings of dysphoria and decided to postpone transitioning until she could figure her shit out a bit more.
Years later she’s decided she’s fine as she is and saved herself shittons of money and physical suffering with no real drawback.
It’s important not to be emotionally attached to a diagnosis.
I’m afraid that the whole discussion is so polarized at the moment that it is hindering progress. On one hand, conservative people want to completely ban hormone therapy and puberty blockers. On the other hand, progressive people want to ban the pathologizarion of gender affirmation. There a huge lack of nuance in the discourse.
I agree with you, and would go further.
A while back, there was a study (IIRC) from the UK that recommended against gender transitioning for children. No surprise, it created quite an uproar before it was retracted.
At no point in any of the media coverage or comments on Lemmy, etc, did I see any discussion of the study itself. To this day, I have no idea if there was an issue with the methodology. It seems that no one, neither supporters nor opponents, bothered to read past the headline. Many of them were very fervent in their beliefs, but that wasn’t enough to get them to look at the details.
This is also very bad for science - there are countless headline-grabbing “studies” that fail basic requirements. I’m sure you’ve seen things like “Is coffee/chocolate/etc good for you? A new 10-day study of 23 people suggests that…”. Which of course should get picked apart.
If we aren’t following the science, then what are we even trying to do?
(As an aside, I suspect that study was flawed, but I can’t confirm. It goes against the conclusions widely agreed upon, and would require significant rigor and evidence to support the claim)
On priors, you’re talking about the Cass report, which was in fact massively flawed, and I saw a great deal of discussion on it. Among other issues, they tossed out a lot of studies, and wrote the report from the stance that the only studies worth looking at would have been double blind studies. I’m not sure if you’ve considered this specifically, but it’s pretty damn hard to blind starting to grow boobs or facial hair. Cass, the supposedly neutral party conducting the study, was handing out copies of “Irreversible Damage”, a scaremongering antitrans book about how the poor helpless young “women” were being seduced by big trans. It was garbage, and there’s plenty of writeups on it.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-u-k-s-cass-review-badly-fails-trans-children/
Thank you- this is exactly the sort of critique I had been expecting/hoping to find
When human and social situations are interpreted in simplistic one-size-fits-all ways by people who have linked such interpretation to being a member of a “political side”, their takes are not really about what’s best for the people involved, even when they claim otherwise.
There really isn’t any “one size fits all” approach for most human subjects, specially something as socially significant as gender is in most societies.
I’ve learned from trans friends that we share some experiences of gender, because I generally don’t fit the traditional masculine model despite being a cis male. I remember being interested in “girly” things as a kid and being frustrated that I wasn’t “supposed” to play with the toys that I wanted to I could see where in another life, with the right people saying the right things at the right times that could lead me to believe that I’m trans when I don’t actually seem to be
I suffered from severe depressions as a teenager, and my therapist at the time suggested it might be due to gender dysmorphia. I was raised by women, no father figure, which made me a lil feminine in some characteristics. As a confused teen, i ate that idea up…
Years later i realized that wasnt it, and felt like my therapist was way too quick go with that idea. Clinging to a diagnosis was my way of keeping hope alive that i could fix the issue. I did fix it eventually, but not through gender reassignment surgery…
Shouldn’t hormones and surgery be the last option as that’s the most extreme, expensive and difficult to reverse option? Like make sure its not something else that can be treated with less invasive options first. Would be awful to go through a sex change when actually you just needed antidepressants.
But mental illness is in a pretty shit state right now.
