IDF: Whoops, tee hee.
Who’s confused? They wanted to do a genocide so now they’re doing a genocide.
It’s more like, they keep doing the genocide.
“we have infiltrate the supply chain of communication devices order by Hizbollah what should we do”
- “put GPS tracker so we know where they are”
- “we can listen to all their plans and communication”
- “put a bomb inside …”
to be fair, a gps tracker probably wouldn’t be very useful. You wouldn’t even know which pager is held by who. It would just tell you where people “probably are generally” which you probably already know.
you could intercept communications, but they’re probably already doing that. doing it at a pager level would be weird, you should be doing it from a transmission level. But i don’t know how pagers work so don’t quote me on that.
you could put a bomb inside of it. That’s an option…
Message is unencrypted when it hits the beeper?
Generally yes, I think for this model of pager, that is the case. I think pagers operate on some oldass unencrypted 80’s era protocol where a station just transmits the message freely on all waves until the pager comes into range and accepts it. You could’ve probably triggered this bombing with a big enough antenna inside of israel broadcasting the message. You can read as much on the wikipedia page.
the real problem is assuring the chain of custody through the owner of the pager itself.
It could be in the hands of “mr bob” for example, but maybe mr bob left it at his home, or gave it to a friend to hold onto for a while, or maybe two people ended up swapping pagers accidentally, there’s no trivial way to know the immediate distribution of pagers either, so you should probably assume it’s random, as distributing them alphabetically is probably unlikely. Although it is technically possible.
I just don’t really know of a good way of specifically targeting a single pager with the intent of actually making the one you need to go off. to go off, the obvious problem if you fuck up, is that within a few hours, everybody knows you fucked up. All of those pagers are now going to be gone.
Its baffling for sure, would be nice to know what was gained from the attacks.
I am fully against this booby trapping war crime regime but the problem with your first options is that pagers don’t transmit like phones do. That means there would be no way to remotely aquire the GPS or other saved data undetected.
If you can plant an explosive in there you can plant a transmitter
My point was that a transmitter would be easily detectable.
But an explosive charge wouldn’t? Don’t we literally have dogs that can smell explosives?
quick question: anyone doubt carpet bombing germany in ww2 was wrong? doubt it.
The residents of Dresden, perhaps ?
So it goes.
if the bots here could read…
25000 noncombattants lost their lives needlessly and that’s not wrong to you?
no. or how would you have solved that hitler thing back then? freeze the war, keep KZs open?
Maybe attack military installations. Win the German population to your side?
Ooh boy, now that’s a take and a half. Win over the population of Nazi Germany on behalf of the invading force?
Better than bombing them.
This is more like carpet bombing England during WW2
Yes, it was wrong.
no.
No, carpet bombing civilians isn’t wrong? Wow shit take.
what was your suggestion on stopping hitler?
On the battlefield and by winning the hearts and minds of the germans?
Didn’t have precision munitions back then. Didn’t have drones that can monitor the battlefield from across the globe and provide real-time video feeds.
Besides, in this case, Israel is playing Germany’s role.
so wrong on so many levels. but maybe we should ask the lgbtq spokesperson of hamas. ah, shit…there aint one because…
So they deserve genocide?
so they are distancing themselves fro hamas, even start attacks against the hamas terrorists? i havent heard of that. so they have the right to make cover for terrorism against israel? fuck anyone who ever supported Hamas or Hizbullah as much as fuck anyone who supported hitler or stalin etc.
Add netenyahu to that list if you’re going to act like you want to play fair.
absolutely. hate him.
Also, I want you to try this thought expect. Picture yourself in Gaza, for generations, one side has been negatively affecting your way of life. Imposing checkpoints, treating you like less than human. That side has now destroyed your schools, and hospitals, and mosques, family, and everything you hold dear. The otherside, while still horrible, generally leaves you alone to live your life. Why would you fight the side that generally leaves you be? Why would you not look at the other side as an enemy? This division is by design.
also i want you to try this thought experiment: you are german, all your folks killed jews, roma, sinta, red heads etc and the population just keeps on supporting the cause. and at some point the rest of the world is done with their shit and carpet bomb them. btw i am german. and we still have way to many nazis here.
Ah, ok so genocide all around then. That’s sounds an awful lot like a final solution to your problem to me
Cool, what about the people that support the innocent civilians? Because that’s who I support. Ya know the ones who don’t deserve it? Like the innocent people in Gaza, or the west Bank, or Lebanon, or Israel. What about them?
enlighten me on the innocent germans in WW2? No D-day you say?
Yes, the huge population of noncombattant Germans on the beaches on d-day, how could I forget that segment. Oh wait! Hitler had armies there, how silly of you.
It’s war
So they deserve genocide?
In war, civilians lose.
They don’t have to.
I’m trans. Doesn’t mean I want everyone who dislikes me to die. Wtf kind of twisted logic is that?
no it means the previous argument was bullshit because fights for human rights for people who fight against human rights is retarded beyond belief. wtf of twisted logic to support the killer as long as you are not getting killed. geez, you are sick.
But you’re literally supporting a killer as long as you’re not getting killed??? Can you not see the irony?
dont you understand selfdefense, right and wrong? did you go to school…like ever? hamas and hizbulla want to eradicate israel. theres not much to discuss.
Yes, I went to school where we learned history. WHY do Hamas and Hezbola want to eradicate israel? What about the civilians? Do you know what self defense is? Do you see how silly an argument it is when “their side” says the same thing about their actions?
I think I somewhat misunderstood you previous argument. As the original argument of the post-chain was the comparison of the Allies carpetbombing Germany (resulting in civilian casualties), and the attacks by Israel (which has also resulted in civilian casualties). I understood your post as justifying the civilian casualties behind their beliefs.
While I do not agree with your thought that people who fight against human-rights have their rights revoked. I can at least to some degree understand your point of view. It is my opinion murder should be an absolute last resort, and only in cases where a crime has been committed and no other options are available.
On the point of civilian deaths resulting from any attack (be it the Allies, Israel, Hamas or other). I don’t find it acceptable in any way. And that is why I used the words “twisted logic”. I understood your stance as anyone who thinks differently regarding LGBTQ-rights regardless of any crimes commited should be killed. Which I harshly disagree with.
I mean, not every individual has a pager on them necessarily. Not that it’s excused either way
Way to completely miss the point. Nobody is suggesting they use pagers in Gaza.
To be fair, Mossad != IDF.
Correct IDF kills Palestinians as their core job, similar to Waffen SS and their war crimes.
Mossad kills people outside of Palestine to let normies know Israel is dangerous.
Whoa. Hey guys. New war crime just dropped.
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i think they killed like, 12 people, and injured somewhere between 1-2 thousand more, probably some civilians in there, but these are military pagers to my knowledge so it’d be weird for it to hurt a bunch of random people, but it’s possible.
if you include the radio attack i think it’s like another 40 dead, and like 500 injured? Don’t quote me on it.
Right now the plan is to start assassinating everyone that got maimed for being related to zbowla
This says 37 dead, of whom Hezbollah have stated 31 were their fighters.
sounds about right with what i’ve heard from other places.
Hezbollah is a political party with 18 parliamentary seats and thousands of public service workers on their payroll.
Saying these were “fighters” is akin to bombing an UNRWA center and claiming you killed 31 Hamas Terrorists.
so then why did they have pagers? I thought the pagers were specifically for millitant orders, or is the whole political party communicating in private via one way pagers?
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence, in a building for example, rather than like this.
so then why did they have pagers?
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
i feel like if this were public service, this would be in confidence
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
It’s underdeveloped because a terrorist organization fought a war to control the telecommunications system so they could leverage it more effectively for more terrorism.
To receive messages through an underdeveloped telecommunications infrastructure.
obviously. It seems more akin to hamas than like, the green party in the US for example though. I wouldn’t be surprised if the primary purpose of the pagers was for military communications. I would expect any sort of political meetings to be done through a scheduled period, i could see notifications going out for these things. But that’s about it.
also, from what i’ve heard, they had phones previously, and recently got rid of them for the usage of these pagers, since the phones were probably bugged, with israeli intelligence anyway.
Well, if you feel that way, I guess the mass murder was fine.
also i’m not sure this semantically counts as a “mass murder” usually those are done directly by an individual, on a group of people immediately in front of them. Maybe it could apply to this, but that seems like a stretch, especially considering this killed like 50 people total, which is a lot, but considering the amount of injuries and spicy pagers, that’s not very effective.
Would the US pullout of afghan that killed like 13 members of the military also count as mass murder? That’s more than a few, and probably more collective than this event.
That’s a pretty clean ratio actually, considering the nature of Hesbollah.
Yeah. Two civilians dead for every one militant is fairly typical for asymmetric warfare.
Where are you getting those numbers?
Vague memory, but on looking it up, it’s even worse
I’m sure that’s true in general, but given the pagers and radios were being either held or worn by the target, I’d say this attack would have been much better.
Hezbollah was using commercial grade pagers because they’re a militia. The purpose of pagers are to contact them when their off duty. Many of these pagers blew up in homes, grocery stores, and other public places. Many civilians were killed and most people injured were bystanders.
from what i can recall, and from the stats i’ve seen, these “explosions” seem more like “really bad pocket fires” more than anything to me, i could see it injuring people. Maybe two or three standing immediately nearby other people.
But considering this attack has only like 12 confirmed dead civilians or something, “many” seems a little excessive. I could see a few hundred getting injured though. Possibly a few cars/homes burning down. That might cause a few more.
ok so, did a bit of a check here, 12 civilians died. That’s where that number came from. 40 people died total, i think. At least that’s what wikipedia tells me. I don’t think it ever mentions how many civilians were injured directly, but assuming it follows the deaths, it’s somewhere between probably 500 and 1000 i would guess.
from what i can recall, and from the stats i’ve seen,
From what you can recall? I’m sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
It’s terrorism, plain and simple.
only 12 civilians
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
From what you can recall? I’m sorry, but I watched some of those videos, and I will not forget them. I cannot imagine what it must have been like to just be shopping in a supermarket when the person next to you has their legs suddenly blown off 3 feet from you.
this is relatively recent, and i barely care about the IP conflict at large, let alone some millitia in fucking lebanon. All i know is that pagers fucking exploded lmao.
As for the videos, i haven’t watched them, for what i feel like should be pretty obvious reasons. I don’t just watch gore content for fun or anything. I’m not a military analyst or claiming to be one lol. I’m just some dude on the internet who thinks exploding pagers is a rather odd way to go about things, although theoretically practical (as seen by the fact that they did it)
It’s terrorism, plain and simple.
maybe, again i know nothing about hezbollah, less about their goals, and even less about what their role in this conflict has been, other than a relatively minor altercation in some of the recent events.
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
how would you prefer i format it lmao? It’s the fucking english language, it’s semantically correct and provides all the needed context, 12 civilians died in this attack, that’s it. No more, no less, plain and simple. Especially compared to the sheer amounts of injured people, presumably including a lot of civilians, this would be EVEN more appropriate.
Also, there have been single mass shootings that have killed more people. There have most certainly been thousands of accidents (think infra related, cars, trains, etc) that have killed more people, and almost definitely, many many more individual accidental deaths.
12 people is not a whole lot in the total grand scheme of how many people die for reasons that shouldn’t really happen in the first place, it’s a lot of people that die every year. Also yeah wouldn’t these literally be rookie numbers? Seems a bit redundant to me.
this is relatively recent, and i barely care about the IP conflict at large, let alone some millitia in fucking lebanon. All i know is that pagers fucking exploded lmao.
why are you deciding to weigh in on a topic that you’re not invested in and don’t even claim to know anything about?
You really should look up the definition of terrorism some time. If Hamas were the primary target, it’s not.
Yeah dude. “Only.”’ You’re right though, I guess Israel really has raised the bar when it comes to indiscriminate murder of civilians. Those are rookie numbers.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
This killed way less civilians than a traditional bombing that would have got the same Hezbollah fighters would have.
It’s funny how Israel made it a “normal” thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait…
It’s funny how Israel made it a “normal” thing, to use firearms and explosives around civilians for the purpose of getting rid of, what they call, bad guys.
i don’t think they did normalize it though, russia has been indiscriminately hitting civilian places with artillery shells since the beginning of the invasion.
the soviet union has an even more aggressive history of this, scorched earth policies and such, which are almost definitely very old.
Imagine mass-shooting in a public school where a kid tries to hunt down other kids who bullied him for the past few years. Oh wait…
yet another example, except i don’t even have to make the point myself!
in fact, i would argue the concept of minimizing human losses in war is a relatively recent advancement in social theory. That hasn’t exactly been a regular consideration throughout most of history, afaik.
When your enemy disperses themselves among the civilian population?
Obviously, bomb the grocery stores and the shopping malls, then blame the people you were targeting for the collateral murder.
FFS, I’m old enough to remember when Obama drone striking a teenage boy was considered at least mildly controversial for liberals. Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
Now cluster bombing a flea market is the new gold standard for Ethical Warfare.
so technically, and semantically, it’s not cluster bombing, it’s a highly distributed form of micro bombing. Similar to the idea of “incendiary explosive laden bats” in ww2, and various other crackhead ideas the US military cooked up.
these are military pagers
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
They were a shipment for general consumption that went to a dealer near the Iranian embassy.
yeah, that’s generally how products work. Even in the US military the government just walks up to a company and goes "can you make this? And if they say yes they pay them money, or times of war just go “hey i need you to make this”
the only difference here is that it’s not quite a formally established military, so it’s using off the shelf components and products, which is pretty common for these smaller groups.
although depending on the dealer, that dealer may have been the source of intrusion, so there’s that.
The target was the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, and virtually everyone else was just collateral damage.
targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird. I doubt this was a highly specific attack. It would be a very, very odd way to do it, but then again this conflict has been nothing but odd, so i can’t really put it past them lol.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy. While everyone else is technically collateral, it’s probably considered to be beneficial to the cause. At least by israel.
targeting one specific guy through the most broad means possible seems, weird.
Not that weird, in the history of espionage. As another example, the CIA used a vaccine drive in Pakistan to target Osama bin Laden’s hideout.
Regardless, i doubt they solely intended to target that one guy.
When your government believes neighboring ethnicities are “bug people” who need to be exterminated, collateral damage is viewed as a perk.
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yeah that’s what wikipedia is saying. I’m unsure if this includes the radio attacks also though.
1000 civilians had pagers sold to Hezbollah? Odd.
Can you confidently say you know the exact chain of custody of your cell phone?
Some killer gets a pager he doesn’t need, sells it to someone to make some cash, who gives it to their kid. Annnnd boom.
No. Can you? How does OP know this about 1000 civilians? Don’t get me wrong. Fuck the Israeli government and it’s indiscriminate murder, but also fuck the lies. Speak truth.
Since you’re changing topics from “how could kids get pagers meant for someone else”…
In war, everyone lies. But one thing I’ve found as an American is that, if you’re killing in another country, you’re probably the worse of the two.
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No, it’s not. This was a very tactical way of striking an enemy that hides behind women and children.
So would Netanyahu also be considered as hiding behind women and children? He’s out in public, traveling and lives in Tel Aviv.
This was a very tactical
Flinging a hand grenade into a crowd several thousand times over
But it’s okay because the crowd was full of Arabs aka Terrorists
There’s a big difference between dropping bombs and small pagers exploding. I watched a lot of those videos, and almost no one except the targets were injured.
It’s really sad that anyone else got injured at all, but damn, I’m glad they were able to be so destructive without injuring the thousands upon thousands that have been dying up until now. Or are you just upset that you can’t claim genocide for this attack?
Yeah they cant just carpet bomb lebanon that would be too far for even the US.
Yeah I’m sure, the US would never let that slide, just like in Laos, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan.
Nothing in the world or in the US has changed since 1972.
GOOD point.
Us gonna provide logistical support my man… Mark my words
Is lemmy having trouble telling the difference between Hamas and Hezbollah now?
No? This is implying that Israel has had the technology to precisely target people for months but chooses to destroy a whole region instead went it came to Palestine.
to be clear, you can’t directly target an individual, you can maybe potentially target a single individual.
This is also not to mention the cost and accessibility of doing something like this at scale. It’s theorized they either got into the factories, or somehow got through the shipment and intercepted it to do this operation.
It’s possible they acted as a middleman but that would be really really hard to do at scale like this.
And even if they did this in palestine, it would only work once.
Why would it only work once? It literally just worked twice in Lebanon. Lebanon is a sovereign nation that is not completely under the oppressive rule of a colonial occupier like Gaza is.
Israel controls everything and everyone that enters and exits Gaza. If they can do it in Lebanon, they can do it in Gaza.
The cost? You mean these bombs are more expensive that the weapons used to level Gaza? The ones they only get because other countries sell them?
i would assume on a unit level cost, these pagers are probably cheaper, as evidenced by recent Ukrainian advances, however the cost of actually getting these units in the hands of the people that need them is going to slowly approach infinity depending on how aggressively you wish to do it.
Also, other countries are allowed to sell military equipment, there’s nothing innately illegal with that. Although the people of those countries may not like it, they do generally have the rights to protest it however.
We know people in Palestine have still have access to phones and Internet. I’m sure if Israel wanted, they could sneak new phones in the region. They literally control the whole of Palestine.
You don’t need to speculate or theorize; they say exactly how they did it. I cut to the exact part of the video where it is succinctly explained.
You’ll also notice that, according to Ben/according to Israel/according to Hezbollah… they advertised that they were going to stop using phones & switch to pagers. In July. So people going on about “they could have done this all along” are wrong. It’s been since sometime in July. This July. Which makes this a very fast & even more effective military operation.
Yes, the shell company was set up 1.5 years ago. Date of sale, idk. But common sense: you need to sell your enemy the goods…and you need to know with relative certainty that the hardware is actively in use. So: since July.
oh good, ben shaprio, well known political hack. So basically TL;DR is that israel setup a shell company, selling tampered pagers and radios to hezbollah?
Seems about right.
Your comment implies they had a method like this one to attack Hamas. Source?
So they can do it to a sovereign nation, but they cannot do it to the completely oppressed population living in territories that they have complete control over, including every person and item that enters and exits? OK.
Do you just not know what the reality in Gaza is like? Do you not understand the level of control that Israel has exerted on those people for the past 8+ decades?
There is a reason that nobody can get humanitarian aide to them.
That’s not what they said.
What technology are they referring to then?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that’s all I’m saying. Why couldn’t they intercept the phones and other devices used by Hamas leaders the same way?
I mean they have the method and the will to use it, that’s all I’m saying.
The method may not have been applicable for some reason. Shooting people in the head is a method but unless they line up for you away from everyone who’s not Hamas, that’s not a realistic method to employ.
for some reason
Oh ok, super convincing argument. I refer to my previous response regarding the amount of control Israel exerts on Gaza. The suggestion that they could not do something similar there is absurd.
Oops, you missed this part (I’m sure it was an accident)
may not have been applicable for some reason
The comments I’m replying to are absolutely sure what Israel could have done. Mine make it clear I don’t know what Israel knows.
The burden of proof is on those who seem to think they just need whatever information is on the public internet to know what would or wouldn’t work against various targets.
Consider dialing back the confidence seeing as no one here knows shit about what intel any groups involved has.
Agreed! It’s SAFER to just Bomb Orphanages and Schools to ENSURE those Hamas Kids die instead of using your Military Knowledge you Obviously have to find a Way to target ONLY Hamas!
no i think they’re talking about it cuz its israel
I forgot every method works the same against every target.
ok?
Hamas doesn’t use pagers, they use tunnels
Hamas uses phones, hence the “Where’s Daddy?” attack, which is not directed at tunnels. It’s more-or-less designed to hit civilians. The clue is in the name.
It’s targeting the militant based on his phone.
Yes, specifically militants who are fathers.
Unfortunately choices have consequences
Well, the children don’t have a choice, so I assume you’re talking about the choice to target the militants there and not in another place.
Their father has a choice. He should act in a way that’s in his children’s best interests but if he thinks attacking Israel is more important, then the consequences will be his to live with.
I agree with you it would be better if he were simply killed, though; that’s certainly the position Israel takes on the matter.
Wtf is that mean. Tunnels aren’t communication devices. Also Hezbollah famously has vast tunnel networks under southern Lebanon.
Wtf is that mean.
It means you have to actually go to the tunnels and fight, like the IDF is doing.
Lol that’s not what they’re doing.
It literally is
Oh I didn’t realize you go “into” tunnels by indiscriminately bombing the things above them.
You learn something new every day.
Sometimes you bomb them so you don’t have to, or to block a means of egress. Either way it’s a legitimate military objective that justifies civilian casualties.
People could just leave the area, though. It’s not like Israel doesn’t tell them about the strike.
justifies civilian casualties.
The entire goal of hasbara is this.
Ah yes, I love going into tunnels by bombing hospitals and orphanages full of civilians, it’s my favorite method. Also, are you suggesting that hamas doesn’t use communication technology?
Why is a military tunnel under a hospital? (I don’t believe that Gaza had a single orphanage.)
First of all, I’m pretty sure it was proven not to be, but you can fact check me on that. Second, if it were there, it likely wasn’t intentional. Third, they could have bombed the tunnel without hitting the hospital, because it wouldn’t have only been under the hospital. Fourth, and again you can fact check me in this, but it would be pretty strange for a large city to have no orphanages.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/12/world/middleeast/gaza-tunnel-israel-hamas.html
Second, if it were there, it likely wasn’t intentional.
It connects to, and opens into, a hospital referred to by the New York Times in 2008 as “the de facto headquarters of Hamas.” So clearly pretty intentional.
Third, they could have bombed the tunnel without hitting the hospital
They did bomb the tunnel without hitting the hospital.
Fourth, and again you can fact check me in this, but it would be pretty strange for a large city to have no orphanages.
There are zero orphanages in any American city, for instance. Not strange at all. Orphanages are kind of an archaic and disused way to handle the case of orphaned children - modern societies use a foster system, instead. Gazans simply don’t care so they make no provision at all if the family doesn’t step up, so they don’t run orphanages either.
2008 you say.
So… 17 years ago?
Hamas != Hisbollah
But I start to wonder if they Knees about the planed attacks and let them happen to start this massacre.
It feels like the all seeing eye of Mossad was ignored on purpose. I hope Netanjahus Name will be branded for ever. He deserves no good mention in History of humanity.
On the other side… humanity faces the biggest historic event ever and no one cares (climate change)
Hamas != Hisbollah
And they also don’t use pagers, or cell phones, or…?
I think you imply the wrong thing here. of course they probably do, but what is the core of your statement?
Mine was:
Netanjahu (Not all of Israel and definitely not all Jews) wants this genocide. He needs it for his own survival, to a point where he gladly accepted the rape-murder of Festival crowd… not any festival, a Hippie-Goa-Festival full of people who would never vote conservative, so a scapegoat the conservatives gladly gave.
Conservatives globally are such a vomit inducing Subgenre of human scum. Hamas and Hisbollah ARE conservatives too… the liberal-green-peace-people have no representation in this world filled with hatred. Quite the opposite, they are vilified and killed.
Ah I see now, I misread what you were trying to communicate.
Sry. I try me best. =∆
There is no accident.
But how would they arbitrarily punish everyone without carpet bombing? It’s not like everyone has a pager.
If you pull the thread enough there won’t be any sweatshirt left. Chill bro.
Watch me unravel, I’ll soon be naked
Mossad: “Making 40,000 pagers full of C4 and then convincing everyone in Gaza that they’re hip in 2024 is not profitable! What are we, Apple?”
Also Mossad: “But what about Lebanon?”
30 points - 1 day ago.
What happened to this site? Do people think this shit is funny?
