Clarification Edit: for people who speak English natively and are learning a second language

  • Ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    5 months ago

    It’s made me aware of how much I appreciate reliable consistent pronunciation in Spanish (at least compared to English). And it’s given me a huge amount of sympathy for people who are learning English and trying to speak to native English speakers :)

    But I wouldn’t say it’s shown me how broken English is. I mean, I think it’s more broken than Spanish, but that could just be a comment on how much I still have to learn about Spanish :P

    • thirdBreakfast@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Same with consistent pronunciation in Indonesian - it’s so much better. I feel sorry for little kids learning to read English and getting told to ‘sound it out’. Sure thing, which of the five to nine sounds shall I use for the letter ‘a’?

  • Darkassassin07@lemmy.ca
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    5 months ago

    English is the language that beasts up other languages in dark alleys then rifles through their pockets for loose phrases and spare grammar.

    • leftzero@lemmynsfw.com
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      5 months ago

      Seriously, other languages at least adapt loanwords to their own grammar, orthography, and whatnot… English just grabs them as they are and runs away without looking back.

      That’s why you end up with the plural of radius being radii, or stuff like_fiancé_ or façade (seriously, how are people who only speak English and have never seen a ç before in their lives supposed to know how to pronounce that‽)…

      Of course it all comes from English being really three or four languages — (Anglo-)Saxon, Normand(/old French), and Norse — badly put together, so sprinkling bits of other languages on top didn’t make much of a difference, when there were already about five different ways to pronounce, for instance, oo, and the whole vowel shift debacle didn’t exactly help with this mess… but while other languages which may have had similar (if maybe less spectacular) growing pains eventually developed normative bodies, mostly from the eighteenth century onwards, that define and maintain a standard form of the language, English seems to have ignored all that and left grammar and orthography as a stylistic choice on the writers’ part, and pronunciation as an exercise for the readers…

    • BudgetBandit@sh.itjust.works
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      5 months ago

      Don’t forget that there once was a time when smart people just added letters to words that don’t do anything - like the b in debt, which was called det before. Or when America got rid of Britains U after O because newspapers charged per letter.

      • SwingingTheLamp@midwest.social
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        5 months ago

        British newspapers were only able to subsidize the use of the letter ‘u’ through taxes levied on the colonies, which led to the revolution. So who’s so smart after all?

        Nah, seriously, the Normans added the ‘u’ to French-derived words after they invaded. English orthography wasn’t standardized, though. Johnson kept the ‘u’ out of a sense of tradition when compiling his British dictionary, and Webster elided it in his American dictionary because we don’t pronounce it. Neither spelling, -or or -our, derives from the other.

      • SirSamuel@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Cheery! Stop playing with your lipstick and go down to Cable Street. Igor’s potatoes have escaped again and Washpot can’t find Fred and Nobby.

      • Corr@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        Perhaps other people have said it but this is the quote I’m familiar with:
        “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”

        James Nicoll

  • FordBeeblebrox@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    It’s 3 languages stacked up in a trench coat. The annoying thing about Gaeilge, it uses all the same letters but everything is pronounced differently

  • Anatares@lemmynsfw.com
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    5 months ago

    I don’t feel it’s particularly broken honestly. Some languages are more consistent with their rules and therefore easier to learn but English is surprisingly consistent in practice/sound throughout the world. You also don’t need to memorize the gender of a washing machine…

    • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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      5 months ago

      You don’t really need to memorize the gender in Spanish either. The gender is signaled by the word ending. It’s a maquina; that’s a feminine noun. As you’re speaking you can see “maquina” coming up and arrange for the gender without having to memorize the word’s gender.

      • leftzero@lemmynsfw.com
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        5 months ago

        Someone learning Spanish as a second language will have to remember that it’s máquina and not máquino when speaking or writing it, though (and will then probably be quite confused if they ever meet some guy nicknamed El Máquina, which would somehow be a perfectly cromulent nickname in Spanish).

        Confusing genders when speaking or writing is one of the most common mistakes amongst people new to the language, because while everything else has some form of rule, this doesn’t (sure, when reading or listening you can most of the time use the word ending, and you’ll probably have an article, too, but when you are the one speaking or writing you have no option but to just know a word’s gender, or how it ends, which is the same thing).

    • leftzero@lemmynsfw.com
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      5 months ago

      I don’t feel it’s particularly broken honestly.

      There are five (5) ways of pronouncing oo, if you people haven’t added a sixth one since the last time I looked.

      Radii, fiancé, and façade are apparently perfectly cromulent English words that native English speakers who’ve never seen an ii, an é, or a ç are supposed to be able to pronounce correctly…

      Your words for food animals come from completely different and unrelated languages depending on whether the animal is alive or dead (since the people who tended to the farms and the people who actually ate their meat spoke different languages)…

      There are probably more irregular verbs than regular ones… (again, probably because of English really being three different languages in a trenchcoat)…

      At some point in the sixteenth century you apparently just up and decided to randomly switch the pronunciation of all your vowels… without changing how you wrote them

      While most languages have developed some form of standard and regulative body, English seems like it’d rather leave the whole grammar, orthography, pronunciation, and whatnot situation as an exercise for the victim speaker, writer, or reader

      Yeah, no, not particularly broken at all… 😒

      • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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        5 months ago

        There are five (5) ways of pronouncing oo

        That’s a good thing. Vowels are enormous in the range of ways they can be pronounced. Any vowel can become any other vowel before it’s done being pronounced, and then you can chain that effect. You can tell where people are from by their vowels. Vowels convey analog information whereas consonants convey digital. Vowels therefore have bandwidth to carry extra information. And so not only do we have lots of vowel pair sequences with their own rules for pronunciation, we have tons of rules for how surrounding consonants change those vowels. And then finally we have all sorts of cultural understandings about how altered vowels indicate mood and intent.

        It’s good we don’t try to pretend there are only a handful of vowels.

        • leftzero@lemmynsfw.com
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          5 months ago

          That’s a good thing.

          Nah, man. That’s the abused justifying the abuser. That’s pure Stockholm syndrome.

          There’s no world in which the oos in moon, book, door, blood, brooch, and cooperation (I had forgotten about this one. There are six. SIX! 😩) representing SIX different sounds is a good thing. There simply isn’t.

          A sane language would replace some of those with u, ø, ō, ô, ö, õ, whatever, make some rule so that the poor sod attempting to decipher the written word could begin to know how to pronounce it… but not English. Not English. 😞

      • Anatares@lemmynsfw.com
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        5 months ago

        I’m just pointing out the consistency in spoken form. Your criticisms are valid from a technical perspective, the best kind of correct…

    • norimee@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      For what it’s worth, you don’t memorize the gender of things. It’s just difficult, when you learn another language that does it differently. And that’s true for every language you learn, the difficulty lies in how it’s different of your own.

      • leftzero@lemmynsfw.com
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        5 months ago

        I mean, you do memorise them, you just don’t realise you’re doing it because you’re a baby or toddler and babies and toddlers are language sponges, and not very aware of how their own minds work.

        When learning a gendered language as an adult you definitely have no option but to memorise what gender each word uses, since there’s generally no specific rule, just how the language happened to evolve. (And this can be particularly hard if your native language is gendered, but you’re trying to learn one that genders words differently, for instance when learning German coming from a Romance language, or vice versa.)

        • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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          5 months ago

          No, you don’t memorize it. You memorize the words and how they sound, then based on how their endings sound, you know their gender. You don’t have to maintain a dictionary of words to their gender. There are a few exceptions and you memorize those, but for the most part all you need to memorize is a few rules.

            • intensely_human@lemm.ee
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              5 months ago

              Not really. In case you’re not catching the implication, it means there is no more memorization of words’ gender in Spanish than there is in English, for instance.

              You simply do not need to memorize gender as it can and is derived on the spot from other memorized info, ie the word itself.

  • x4740N@lemm.eeOP
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    5 months ago

    For me it was the inconsistency with sounds in the English language

  • jet@hackertalks.com
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    5 months ago

    English could really benefit from non-sexual pronouns.

    
    ten one, ten two, ten three, ten four, ten five, ten six, ten seven, ten eight, ten nine, twenty
    
    twenty one, twenty two, ....... ```
  • partial_accumen@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Its taught me all languages are broken in some way. Romance languages have words that have arbitrary gender needing conjugation. Some have two genders, some three! Then the Romanian language comes in with its own tricks.

    Chinese (Mandarin and Cantonese) lack an alphabet so words are conjunctions of smaller words, or sometimes worse the phonetics of smaller words without the meaning of the word.

    Starbucks (the coffee company) in Mandarin is 星巴克. 星 is the literal translation of Star. So far so good. However 巴 can mean “to hope”. 克 can mean “to restrain”. The reason they use 巴克 for the second half of Starbucks is that when you pronounce them they vaguely sound like “bahcoo” (buck). So the first half is the traditional use of direct translation ignoring what it sounds like phonetically, but the second half ignores direct translation and instead uses the phonetics of the second two characters to sound like “buck”.

    • Glowstick@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      I mean that makes sense because that’s kind of how it is in english too. “Star” makes you think of a star, but “bucks” at the end of the word doesn’t make you think of anything specific, it’s just a sound

      • Skua@kbin.earth
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        5 months ago

        Oddly enough, “starbuck” has nothing to do with stars. It comes from some Old Norse meaning “sedge river”. This became the place name Starbeck, a town in northern England. People then took that as a surname, and the spelling changed to Starbuck at some point. Herman Melville then gives a character in Moby Dick the surname Starbuck, and eventually the founders of the coffee chain picked it for no particular reason other than that they liked the sound of it

        So the “buck” part is, I guess, “river”. Or “brook”, to pick the more closely-related English term. This doesn’t change anything you said, of course, as nobody actually thinks of it like that, I just found the winding path it took kinda interesting

    • Skeezix@lemmy.world
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      5 months ago

      Somebody who was aware of all this once invented a language that was supposed to fix all the problems. He called it Esperanto.

      • GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
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        5 months ago

        Esperanto isn’t the only constructed language, and I think it is more Western-oriented, for good or ill. It does do a lot of things right within that framework, though, with certain rules that make everything explicit while removing other rules for structure that are no longer needed due to the explicit nature of the language.

  • OhmsLawn@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    It isn’t broken. It’s quirky, and they all are.

    What I appreciate about Spanish over English is the ease of spelling and pronouncing new words. What I appreciate about English over Spanish is the ease of creating new words.

    I have some limited ability/understanding in other languages, but not enough to judge. Except for French.

  • jordanlund@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    I learned Latin and in the process learned that quite a lot if what makes English fucked up was a movement a couple of hundred years ago to make it more like Latin.

    • MudMan@fedia.io
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      5 months ago

      Well, and also one to make it less like Latin. And the same with French.

      People have been beating this thing with a stick for many centuries. It’s part of the charm. And now it’s doing the same to every other language. That’s maybe less charming.

      • inefficient_electron@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Debt used to be spelled dette or simply det. We spell it with a useless silent “b” today because meddlers decided to bring it back to its Latin roots of debitum. This happened in French as well, even though neither language ever pronounced the “b” and had no business adding it. The same happened with words like doubtplumbersubtleindict, and island. French was sensible enough to reverse this through modern spelling reform, but I think English is stuck with it for the foreseeable future.

          • inefficient_electron@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            Yep. It’s a bit hard to fathom today, but in the Middle Ages few people had the ability to read and write, mostly either learned monks and clergy, or those wealthy enough to be taught by them. With such a small pool of people, it’s comparatively easy to influence the prevailing spelling through the actions of a few.

  • radix@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    When you start a new language, you learn “The Rules” first, and wonder why your first language doesn’t have such immutable “Rules.”

    Then when you get fluent, you realize there are just as many exceptions as your first language.

    • Fonzie!@ttrpg.network
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      5 months ago

      Or do Japanese: There are two main types; the one where you and everyone else neatly follows the immutable rules which you speak to superiors and to strangers by default, and the one where everyone blurts out whatever words in whatever order they come up in their brain, aka what’s spoken between friends and to acquainted inferiors

      • x4740N@lemm.eeOP
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        5 months ago

        I’m doing Japanese and I beleive you are referring to polite and impolite (or formal and informal) Japanese

  • credo@lemmy.world
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    5 months ago

    Consider these terms vs words:

    Site / look

    An overlook / overlooked

    An oversight / [provide] oversight

  • unn@lemmy.ca
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    5 months ago

    I was learning Japanese and became aware how broken Japanese is