- cross-posted to:
- usa@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- usa@lemmy.ml
Published earlier this year, but still relevant.
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The fairness meter at the bottom of the article is absurd. “Unfair left leaning” like yes, how dare the libtards use statistics to show how broken our economy is
If you are speaking of the needle position on the dial thingy, I believe it’s just the default until you vote, not meant to indicate anything (though it’s misleading). You have to vote to see actual results.
Ah, ok. What a strange default. Almost makes me think they chose that as the default to be rage bait
There’s no real entity auditing it so it could be the site itself fishing for a reaction. Kinda like reddit votes nowadays ;).
Brave goggles has a similar concept. Search “vaccines” with “from the right”, get a bunch of disinformation antivaxxer crap.
Just call it what it is: “Unfair truth leaning”, “Unfair fake leaning”.
“Bullshit Discriminatory” and “Bullshit Tolerant”
I only have one thing to say to all the incredibly smug tech workers of the last 10-15 years.
Lol.
You know what? Lmao, even.
Gonna be funny to watch them pivot to service jobs and get absolutely destroyed when they realize they dont have soft skills.
Oh man, I can not wait.
Why do you carry so much hate with you?
I was going to study computer science. Instead I got a general AA and got a helpdesk job. Then A+ and a better job and a Net+ and an even better job and I’m not well off by any means but my family has a roof over our heads and food on the table and what’s more I am still employed and don’t have student loans so it’s looking more and more like that’s the right call and the best way to get into tech.
Give it a minute. Pretty soon, they’re going to need a lot of people to fix all the vibe-code that’s currently being spewed out by AI. That’ll be a monumental task.
Just found out someone in my team has been vibe-coding VBA in Excel that our team is now using. I asked who was going to maintain it and she didn’t know what I meant by maintenance.
Reminds me of web development in the Dotcom days, cleaning up Dreamweaver HTML garbage.
I almost forgot about Dreamweaver, those were the days.
Even in europe there is no workers union for IT. Atleast not that i know of. IG metal and Verdi didnt answer my email about that
There’s a couple in Norway for engineering / technology, NITO and Tekna
Would you happen to know of any for germany?
Computer science is not IT. IT is about knowing how to use, deploy, and administer existing software solutions, along with a bit of light development to get things to work together when they aren’t necessarily directly compatible.
CS is about creating software solutions and understanding how the pieces fit together (at a low level), as well as how to evaluate algorithms and approach problem solving.
It’s not even coding, though coding is obviously involved. For a coding class, they’ll teach you the language and give problems to help learn that language. For CS classes, they might not care what language you use, or they might tell you to use specific ones and expect you to learn it on your own time. The languages are just tools through which you learn the CS concepts.
An IT professional might know about kernel features and how they relate to overall performance. A coder might be aware that there is a kernel doing OS stuff under the hood. A computer scientist might know the specifics of various parts of what a kernel does and how one is implemented, perhaps they’ve even implemented one themselves for a class (I have, though I was personally interested in that kind of thing and it was for a class notorious for being difficult, so most grads didn’t).
My employer considers developers, infra, SRE, PC Support, even QA all to be part of the “IT department”. I’ve always used the term “IT” to just cover any specifically “tech” sort of function. As opposed to, say, finance, sales, HR, operations, etc.
Computer science is not IT.
ooof got some bad news for you there.
Guessing you mean in a similar vein to the connection between various degrees and food service jobs?
Personally, I’ve been able to avoid IT jobs so far.
IT as in information technology is a stupid broad category, and the only people who say otherwise are just trying to not be painted as in IT.
Network engineer, IT. Software Dev, IT. Program manager for that big roll out, still IT. Call center meat in a seat, IT.
What? I’m working in IT and am a member of ver.di. Of course it’s an IT union.
They never emailed me back to my question. But good to hear. Is there a specific subsection that i should message?
Try this page: https://ikt.verdi.de/
I was laid off from my charger oem. Now I work at a grocery store till I find a new job. Needed the cheap insurance plus its union. This won’t last for long.
Requirements for a job in Computer Science are, in order of importance, first, a demonstrated talent. Second, a demonstrated skill level. Third, demonstrated knowledge.
Just like being a top-tier pianist, all the knowledge, raining, schooling, and education in the world matters nothing if you do not first have the talent.
But you do not need talent to get into a Computer Science course, nor to graduate from one. You just need the knowledge and the marks.
That is why there are so many uneducated, untalented Computer Science graduates out there.
This is the thing the teachers and educators in Computer Science never tell you.
My experience has been that computer science is a huge umbrella term to normies. Many people, including hiring managers seem to thing computer science is more of a trade education where people come out knowing everything about excel, windows, PowerPoint, file conversions, obscure knowledge of ancient software, expertise in setting up enterprise printers, etc
I was developing software for a position I was in, and everyone was shocked I was a developer… (It was a devops job where everyone basically edited yaml or json files all day long…)
It’s the same with the term AI - everyone uses it today but very few, including most reporters in the media, really understands it or apply it properly.
Shut up and get me my burger.
Let me guess AI
If you had spent the 20 seconds it took to write this comment to actually start reading the article you’d find out the true reason and that AI is not even mentioned.
So AI isn’t automation ?
No, AI stands for Artificial Intelligence, and this isn’t about automation either. The demand for computer scientists just spiked during the pandemic when everyone was stuck at home on their computers - not so much once it ended.
I’ve been saying that the market is oversaturated for YEARS now but this just enrages tech bros into insulting me personally. It’s very strange.
I always tell me CS/CE/Info students that they should focus on non profits, government agencies, etc. where at least employment will be stable.
Oversaturated?!? Maybe if you’re a plebian bootcamp passionless 0.1x-er who hasn’t even contributed to multiple open source projects or founded at least 3 startups. Maybe you should try internalizing all PhD-worthy algorithms from the last 30 years to reproduce them on the spot from memory like I did, or else do you really even care about the craft??? You need to understand this industry is full of math olympiad prodigy coder geniuses who work 80 hours a week like me so yeah it’s competitive. Nothing oversaturated about that
/s
That was a fantastic impression of reality. Well done.
I don’t get why they would insult you, but I have been hunted and not had to find jobs since I finished school, sometimes they fight each other. But it may be not quite the same job, i’m a coder turned game designer
Where I am and due to its greater practicality, nursing is more popular as a college course than compsci.
I once started as compsci, but instead got a job fixing PCs. Also self-learned basic carpentry and plumbing. Looking at raising livestock in the near future.
HERE AS well, nursing is popular because you can make bank as a travelling NURSE, over being staffed a hospital. im guessing thats what a guy i met as aco-worker in retail once mentioned, i thought he was kidding at first.
only if you have the personality, and tolerates belligerent patients, or work with human waste products from time to time. i suspect the nursing shortages you hear, and the abuse is mostly from rural areas and red states that have a massive shortage of health professionals including MDs.
I lookd into CLS which is in line with my cmb degree, but its a very competitive for not being a grad degree program, its a grad certification require grad level clinical/lab classes, apparently universities in the usa that have the cls program is quite few, so they all try to come to the west coast, only 9 schools teach this program so you can see the competiveness of the program in the west coast. when indeed forum was around they had whole sections dedicated to cls.
Nursing is huuuuge. My nurse friend with a doctorate just landed a $250k base job with 10 weeks paid vacation and a slew of other benefits. Wild.
Plumbing is huge too. If I ever need one, they’re booked out like 3+ months unless you want to pay an emergency fee which is like double or triple.
I, too, am raising some livestock. We’ll see where it goes. But at least to me it feels more connected and real.
if people are willing to deal with patients, then maybe.
True. And blood. Frankly not sure I could handle either, so I’ll stick to my desk job
also patients excrement, fecal matter, urine.
I’m glad I never took it. Been employed in the field for thirty years.
I set my mind on comp sci like 6 years ago because it was said to be one of the most in demand fields (maybe still is) and pays well (I was looking at SWE). Nowadays I have set my mind on a job that involves me working away in a server room. Hopefully that pans out.
3-5 years ago my answer would’ve been different. I could trip and find a job offer. I was getting job offers by email essentially without interviewing.
About a year ago that completely dried up. I can’t even remember the last email I got that was more than recruiter spam. My friend who used to also trip into jobs (7 at peak) has been hunting for 3 months now with no luck.
But…servers and data centers and stuff, you’re probably onto something. Wishing you the best.
I’ve been looking t fulltime for a long time now, and from what I’ve seen there are a tonne of jobs out there, it’s just that are that many more qualified devs than their were just a few years ago.
The way I see it, the hiring bubble that exploded during the pandemic let a lot of people gain proficiency, then followed by the waves of layoffs and you’ve got a lot of talented folks looking.
I wanted to become a dev 12 years ago, when it was still cool.
Needless to say that I haven’t, even if doctors I talked to refused to diagnose me with ADHD, my ASD and BAD and anxiety from many things kinda make it not a very good direction.
So - now I could probably become a dev, with the experience gained. But it’s really not the time when this is a good choice LOL.
Have you seen a psychiatrist or were you talking to a GP? I got diagnosed with ADHD 3 different times in a 15 year period without a problem. Only stuck with the meds the last time about 4 years ago, and it was a game changer.
As a Computer science graduate, I have to say:
No shit! The industry is terrible and has no standards (I don’t mean level of quality but there is no agreed accreditation or methodology). If you do end up in a job you will most likely not use even 5% of what whatever school you went to taught you. You will likely work for peanuts as there will always be someone to do it cheaper (not always right, or good, or even usable). You will work with people doing your job that just lied about having any post secondary education. There is almost no ability to move up in any position in the industry, and like everyone I know that stuck with it you will have the same job until you stop working (you will have to take a side move into another department most likely). This is also the industry most likely to get touched by the “good idea fairy” so you will also be exposed to the highest levels of stupid, like 3 layers of outsourcing the NOC to an active warzone sort of stupid.
I should have known it was a bad idea in college when most of my classmates where ACTIVELY WORKING IN THE INDUSTRY TO PAY FOR SCHOOL so they could get a piece of paper that said they could do the thing they where already doing. But I did my 15 plus years and got out, I have my own business now selling drugs and it is way less sketchy.
Hey man I hear you, so how much gor a quarter?
cheapest I have in store is $20, the fanciest is $40. All in CAD of course.
There is almost no ability to move up in any position in the industry
Change jobs every three years until you find a place that doesn’t suck.
The insanity of the industry is that employers will hire some schmuck with “10 years experience” on their resume for twice what they’re paying the guy who has worked at the firm for ten years.
Eventually, you can get yourself into a position where you’re unfireable, because you are the only one who knows about the secret button that keeps the whole business from falling over.
That’s when you can really squeeze’m
Urgh, yeah it is just so bad. Most places don’t even have a possible job above yours to even potentially move to. Where I was they literally sold us to a competitor (then unsold me as they forgot about a few contracts) and then just removed all the positions above us or related to our department. I lost 3 layers of bosses one day (not that anyone noticed much). And then expect people to just happily go on and on and on.
The fact they could not hire anyone (I was the “new” guy for 10 years on my team) was down to really shitty hiring practices, that automated the requirements in such a way that the only people who could get an interview would have had to lie on their applications. They where desperately trying to say they wanted to hire more people but no one was “qualified”, meanwhile they froze pay for years (really showing that dood that was there for years how much they care).
When android and ios were taking off, I’d see job requirements saying 8 to 10 years experience in Android development.
It hadn’t been out 8 to 10 years.
The fact they could not hire anyone (I was the “new” guy for 10 years on my team) was down to really shitty hiring practices
Not a bad time to start collectively bargaining, especially if you’ve got your fingers in the dam.
HA, not at that sort of place. Unions where never even allowed to be talked about, they instafired anyone that even hinted, illegal or not they did not let that happen.
Edit: oh and everything did fall apart, but like a lot of large companies, they don’t care/notice. We used to joke around that we where in the business of getting out of business, and business was goood
Change jobs every three years until you find a place that doesn’t suck.
Most of my social circle is in tech and we’re spread across or have worked for basically every company in our city and that isn’t really a thing here.
If you know a big chunk of your city’s skilled developers and you collectively agree all the firms suck… might not be a bad idea to start organizing and withholding your labor as a unit.
That was a ride and i love your last sentence.
You’re dead on about the 5% of what you learned thing. I’m on like my 20th tech job and pretty much every one has been different. What I learned in school has applied to only the most basic aspects of any of those jobs. Everything else was learning as I go and just generally understanding how PCs and software work. I have done fairly well with upward mobility (currently about as high as I can go without taking another leadership position) but I had to bust my ass to do it and it was only because I always stood out because of that so I would be first choice. There were never enough promotions/mobility to go around to everyone that was deserving.
If you talk to people who went to different schools you quickly realize that its all different. I spent a lot of time learning antenna theory, Cisco networking and really out of date system admin, while on the other side of the nation my future co workers where learning soldering, cable terminology and text based HTML.
I was on the college board of governors and the thing I learned is that no one knows what computer science even is. Sad part is that it was the same for a lot of the subjects taught.
You know its bad when dude casually drops that he’s a drug dealer and we all collectively shrug, like yeah sounds about right.
There are only two industries that call their customers ‘users’…
We have all been conditioned by the media to think of drug dealers as bad people, but if you aren’t violent and only selling to consenting adults there is nothing inherently wrong or evil about it, other than braking the law. You are providing a valuable service to your community, like every other job.
A lot of drugs are very addictive and ruin people’s lives. I’m well aware a lot of lives were ruined by the stigma attached to to drugs, but to swing from they are evil criminal people to just equating drug dealing with every other job is insane to me.
is insane to me.
Of course, it goes against all values that you were taught.
You have no idea how many of my closest friends have been to jail for drugs. I think that is a problem with the system, but im not going to go to the opposite end of the spectrum and act like we were being upstanding citizens.
Getting people addicted to things is bad. It doesn’t matter if you are a drug dealer, a casino, or a social media app.
It does depend on the drugs though. If you’re shorting crack and heroin to your community then you’re just a predator preying on your own people.
Yeah, also. if it’s the illegal kind there’s a huge price payed in blood in the countries that manufacture and transport them.
The war on drugs sucks but it’s a fact that buying illegal drugs fuels an industry of violence.
I work in pharmacy and casually joke about being a legal drug dealer all of the time.
Not all drugs are street drugs!
Oh you guys have the HARD shit, I don’t even compare.
Hey, its a new legal industry. And selling drugs lets me sleep much better at night compared to having to pretend whatever new bullshit they are pushing is not terrible.
Well yeah, when the tech industry went through multiple waves of massive layoffs, that’s going to be the case in the short term as things shake out.
And everyone and their dog is trying to get into tech. The industry is bound to get saturated eventually…
I’d it’s already saturated if we’re looking at high unemployment in the sector.
Not necessarily, it might mean it I’d an industry easy to get into, but hard to master. If I was short on people, and inexperienced person might actually make mistakes that require even more work to fix.
Everyone thinks they are Mr Robot after they let ChatGPT create a simple HTML page. No, they are not, and they won’t even pass as a junior. Surprise surprise, you have to know the basics.
Yup. We’re hiring, but the candidate pool is a minefield of utter trash, so it takes a while to hire despite having hundreds of applicants. We don’t expect much beyond basic competency, but apparently that’s too much to ask sometimes.
Same here. It’s popular to rag on leetcode-style technical interviews, and yet it’s astonishing how many CS grads with 3 years experience we get in who can’t seem to get through even the most basic “reverse this array”, “find the longest substring” type questions in the language they claim to be strongest in.
People sign up for CS degrees because they see high salaries, but don’t realize those salaries are for the high achievers who have been coding since the age of 10 and are writing code for fun in the evenings as well. Then they flood the market, only to discover that no companies have need of someone who cheesed their way through college, have never written more than a few hundred lines of code their whole life, and have no useful skills to offer.
To the tech people listening… I was high up in many areas for a few decades but I left it all behind. There is still a massive talent-acquisition problem, not just in tech but every industry, that is just waiting to be solved. The departments and staff tasked with hiring are not competent, nor capable of connecting qualified applicants to jobs. The entire hiring system is broken as fuck, and the “job boards” and apps didn’t fix it, they made it far, far worse for everybody on all sides.
Exactly. Our recruiters aren’t tech recruiters, they handle recruitment for the entire company (and we’re not a tech company). As a result, a lot of our candidates have flashy resumes, but no actual skill. As in, I asked someone to write code in whatever language they wanted and they couldn’t do it. And it wasn’t some difficult assignment, this was a first round weeder task. The candidate straight up lied about having any development experience whatsoever. I even had an Information Systems background candidate say straight up that they’re not interested in a dev role, which they were explicitly applying for.
And that’s unfortunately far more common than not. People think that because they paid for a bootcamp that they’re now competent enough to write code professionally, but it turns out, a lot of them didn’t apply themselves at all.
There are good candidates in that mix, it’s just hard to find them. We’re happy to train a promising candidate, and we’ve hired interns that we’ve offered full-time positions to. We don’t even particularly care about age, we had someone internally decide to transition to tech from a blue collar background, so we funded their education and now they write code for production on the side of their main job (they’re our support person for our blue collar users, and they’re really good at it).
If you’re not a big flashy tech company, you’re not going to get as much attention from qualified candidates, and you’ll get a bunch of trash applicants who are looking for easy marks on the job boards.
What you are describing is a constant. Everything is scaled up. I don’t believe for a second that it’s difficult to hire unless you’re talking about these idiots who say things like “Don’t I deserve to hire the best candidate for the job?”
It is not hard to hire someone, it is hard to hire someone who doesn’t give you more work than they solve. I am not against hiring juniors, but they have to show initiative that they are passionate and able to improve. I don’t want a person who will be junior for the rest of their career, because juniors usually require babysitting and that that away work and attention from competent people (the chads who actually build the core features and have to attend business meetings on why it is so good for customers to see additional offers during checking out).
It is a combination - incompetent HR, incompetent candidates, or bad hiring process. I am yet to apply to a company with a hiring process I’d call pleasant on all angles.
And most importantly a lack of companies willing to train their employees. They’re all pointing fingers at every other company to do the training for them, then wondering why they can’t find anyone with the training they want. Whodathunkit
It’s really not. Hiring was much easier 3-4 years ago as the pandemic nonsense was ending and people were bailing on companies forcing people to be back in office 5x/week. The competent devs knew they could do better, while the less competent devs held on to what they had.
Now with a bunch of layoffs, the candidate pool is completely flooded, and since we’re not a big flashy tech company, we seem to get a ton of drive-by applicants who aren’t qualified at all.
