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This url is amazing lol
It’s
マリウス.combut the “internationalized domain name” system pynycodes it to gibberish to prevent spoofing urls using lookalike characters.Like https://аmаzon.com/ is аmаzon.com. Those are cyrillic lowercase
а, not ‘a’.
XMPP is still an option
That is what the author said they switch to, but TBH XMPP also has issues with MFA and messages frequently not being decrypted (using OMEMO) and ‘unencrypted metadata’.
I wouldn’t say that it works better than Matrix, it just has some different strengths and weaknesses.
I haven’t had any issues with it, but it all depends of the client and server
The protocol is bloated to hell so third-party clients stand no chance, and the foundation spends more time bikeshedding or pissing away money than they do developing. It’s a doomed project.
So what’s left? Jabber?
What about delta?
Slrpnk hosts an XMPP/Jabber for our users, mods and admins to communicate. Its worked pretty darn well for the past couple years, with very low resource needs.
The clients are pretty slick now too, such as Cheogram or Monocles for mobile, and movim is an excellent web app with support for group calls.
I’d certainly recommend it over Matrix/element.
The clients are pretty slick now too, such as Cheogram or Monocles
I wouldn’t call either of those, or any other XMPP clients “slick” and it’s my biggest complaint about the protocol.
What’s the protection in the clients assuming compromised infrastructure, like e.g. in https://notes.valdikss.org.ru/jabber.ru-mitm/ ?
https://www.devever.net/~hl/xmpp-incident
This article discusses some mitigations.
You an also use a platform like simplex or the tor routing ones, but they aren’t going to offer the features of XMPP. It’s better to just not worry about it. This kind of attack is so difficult to defend against that it should be out of the threat model of the vast majority of users.
I’m afraid that’s quite outside my field of expertise. I can only report how my experience on XMPP has been as a user, though perhaps @poVoq@slrpnk.net, who hosts it, may be able to weigh in on that. Edit: ah, I see you already have 😄
Though from my untrained eye, it seems that Jabber.ru was compromised due to not enabling a particular feature on their server
“Channel binding” is a feature in XMPP which can detect a MiTM even if the interceptor present a valid certificate. Both the client and the server must support SCRAM PLUS authentication mechanisms for this to work. Unfortunately this was not active on jabber.ru at the time of the attack.
And it seems that hosting it externally on paid hosting service (hetzner and linode) left them particularly vulnerable to this attack, and tgat it could’ve been mitigated by self hosting the XMPP locally, as well as activating that feature.
Significant improvements to certificate pinning and validation have been added to all major XMPP clients as a result of this incident, but it should also be clear that hosting a server on infrastructure under control by an antagonist government (see also Signal) is a very bad idea and hard to mitigate against.
End to end encryption between clients (also for groups) seems to partly address the issue of a bad server. As for self-hosting, any rented or cloud sevices are very vulnerable to an evil maid. So either in-house hosting or locked cages with tamper-proof hardware remain an option.
Signal is under control by the government? 🤔
Their server infrastructure is (run by Pentagon and NSA best buddies AWS).
And that means the government controls it?
Signal doesn’t suffer anything worse than DoS if a hostile party controls the central service. That’s its point and role. It’s based on the assumption that such hostile parties as governments don’t like DoS’ing central services, they prefer to be invisible.
For other points and roles other solutions exist. One can’t make an application covering them all, that never happens.
Briar again (I’ve finally read on it and installed it, and I love how it works and also the authors’ plans on the future possibilities based on the same protocols, but not for IM, say, there’s an article discussing possibility of RPC over those, which, for example, can give us something like the Web ; I mean, those plans are ambitious and if I want them to succeed so much, I should look for ways to defeat my executive dysfunction and distractions and learn Java). Except it would be cool if it allowed to toss data over untrusted parties, say, now if two Briar users in the same group are not in each other’s range, but there’s a third Briar user not in that group between them, their group won’t synchronize (provided they don’t have Internet connectivity). If one could allow allocating some space for such piggybacked data, or create some mesh routing functionality, then it would become a bit cooler.
You are very naive if you think that is all the US government can do in regards to Signal, but suit yourself 🤷
OK, so what else in your opinion can it do?
Anything that’s been proven/confirmed?
So Signal does not have reproducible builds, which are very concerning securitywise. I talk about it in this comment: https://programming.dev/post/33557941/18030327 . The TLDR is that no reproducible builds = impossible to detect if you are getting an unmodified version of the client.
Centralized servers compound these security issues and make it worse. If the client is vulnerable to some form of replacement attack, then they could use a much more subtle, difficult to detect backdoor, like a weaker crypto implementation, which leaks meta/userdata.
With decentralized/federated services, if a client is using other servers other than the “main” one, you either have to compromise both the client and the server, or compromise the client in a very obvious way that causes the client to send extra data to server’s it shouldn’t be sending data too.
A big part of the problem comes with what Github calls “bugdoors”. These are “accidental” bugs that are backdoors. With a centralized service, it becomes much easier to introduce “bugdoors” because all the data routes through one service, which could then silently take advantage of this bug on their own servers.
This is my concern with Signal being centralized. But mostly I’d say don’t worry about it, threat model and all that.
I’m just gonna @ everybody who was in the conversation. I posted this top level for visibility.
@Ulrich@feddit.org @rottingleaf@lemmy.world @jet@hackertalks.com @eleitl@lemmy.world @Damage@feddit.it
EDIT: elsewhere in the thread it is talked about what is probably a nation state wiretapping attempt on an XMPP service: https://www.devever.net/~hl/xmpp-incident
For a similar threat model, signal is simply not adequate for reasons I mentioned above, and that’s probably what poqVoq was referring to when he mentioned how it was discussed here.
The only timestamps shared are when they signed up and when they last connected. This is well established by court documents that Signal themselves share publicly.
This of course, assumes I trust the courts. But if I am seeking maximum privacy/security, I should not have to do that.
They do have reproducible builds for android though? https://signal.org/blog/reproducible-android/
They can’t for iOS because it’s just not a feature there
Else, there’s Molly you can use, but yea, Signal doesn’t like it
Signal’s reproducible builds are broken: https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Android/issues/13565
Not to mention you can run a server on anything pretty much and for surprisingly big amount of users. Toaster or potatoes will do just fine.
Back to IRC we go…
It is entirely insecure.
The argument has always been, if when chat rooms are public, anyone can join and start logging the chats, encryption does nothing.
It has the ability to connect over TLS, but that’s about it.
I loved using it for its simplicity, except when using all the different flavours of nick registration (Q, NickServ, …).
My friends created a telegram group and invited in a couple of bots that do stupid things like posting images or vulgarities when they detect certain words, or perform actions on request.
I tried to convince them to get rid of the bots but they’re in the “we have nothing to hide” camp.
xmpp isn’t.
(Ok I get xmpp alone is but every modern client supports the same two encryption methods so judge for yourself)
Not when the entirety of your conversations are jargon and in-jokes!
/s
Define secure. You can run your own network.
Depends what your goal is. Revolt seems pretty cool, but I don’t think it has any kind of encryption. It is based in Europe, though, so it gets GDPR protection, and it’s open source, so it could be forked to fit other needs and uses.
No, Revolt checks neither of my boxes unfortunately.
You can interact with Matrix server through basic curl commands… and I thought the documentation was pretty good. There are plenty of third-party clients.
Sure, E2EE, keys and cross-signing is not trivial, but I don’t know where it is.
I didn’t imply that you can’t strip the protocol down to its bare essentials and still use it, but what’s the point of a protocol if everyone is on their own personalized version of it? Version / Feature fragmentation is a massive problem and basically none of the third party clients are up to snuff. Synapse is a massive bowl of lukewarm dog water, and most alternatives to it die in a year because it’s impossible to keep up. There’s too much shit in the protocol.
What specific version/feature fragmentation and clients are you referring to? As is common now, newer Synapse drops support for older Postgres (for example). Voice and video calls is the only feature that I can think of that is half-assed in Element/ElementX or not implemented in some clients.
Otherwise, Element, Element X, FluffyChat, Fractal, freaking Cinny on Ubuntu Touch (!), and terminal-based gomuks all support basic functionality, DMs, rooms, encryption, and attachments.
I just want a self-hostable open-source alternative to the shitty closed-source IM systems I’m forced to use
I’m sticking with Matrix for now, hopefully some of the issues I’ve had will get ironed out
Snikket is the rebranded-dockerized XMPP environment (uses prosody for server, Conversations clone for Android, and Monal clone for iOS).
Worked pretty well for me in the past.
Nextcloud talk?
I’m not sure how much it would make sense for me as I don’t use Nextcloud for anything else
If you want 1:1 chat, Simplex should work well.
Revolt is a self hosted discord clone
The lack of group voice calls is what mainly kept me from adopting that. Hope they get that working soon.
I swear there were calls when I was testing it a year or two ago. Guess not then.
Take this with a grain of salt, I don’t have it deployed right now, but if I remember the current state correctly, one on one calls are a thing, group calls aren’t.
The thing is… What alternatives are there? Signal can’t be trusted (on the very same website there is an article about it). I’m not using closed source alternatives like session, Simplex is kinda shady too tbh and I’m not even sure I could get anyone to use it.
I don’t like Matrix/Element either but sadly its the best open source chat solution we have.
xmpp mentioned, I’ll add IRC
Going back to TS3 and IRC. They never left
Counterpoint: this is just some random blogger and you don’t need to follow any of their advice.
Why don’t people trust Signal?
Signal itself is solid. For now. The issue is that signal is a centralized infrastructure service that is based in the US.
While it’s rather unlikely that something shady is going on and the current administration manages to pressure someone into installing back doors without anyone noticing, there is a growing chance that at some point the Orange Hitler or his cronies aim at Signal - and simply shut the whole thing down in a single sweep.
Which would mean the whole thing is lost - in theory they of course could rebuild a foundation outside the US, but that would also mean they need people not residing in the US (not like Proton which claims to operate from Switzerland and in reality are US based) and find funding there - enough funding to cover the costs and that is not impeded by US pressure.
This is the scenario that makes Signal a problematic candidate - and sadly the foundation is doing nothing against it.
Its a 18 months old but OP means this on the same site. https://マリウス.com/if-you-must-use-signal-use-molly/
The blogger also stopped using proton mail. So idk. Seems to be their thing atm.
I started reading the article but didn’t finish. This guy is a fool. He’s bitching about vendor lock in? The data isn’t supposed to be portable. That’s the point.
I forgot to add nextcloud talk!
The article author went back to XMPP, which does appear to be the best option currently.
In what universe is XMPP better than Matrix?
XMPP is significantly less decentralized, allowing them to “”“cut corners”“” compared to Matrix protocol implementation, and scale significantly better. (In heavy quotes, as XMPP isn’t really cutting corners, but true decentralization requires more work to achieve seemingly “the same result”)
An XMPP or IRC channel with a few thousand users is no problem, wheras Matrix can have problems with that. On the other hand, any one Matrix homeserver going down does not impact users that aren’t specifically on that homeserver, whereas XMPP is centralized enough that it can take down a whole channel.
Meanwhile IRC is a 90s protocol that doesn’t make any sense in the modern world of mainly mobile devices.
XMPP also doesn’t change much, the last proper addition to the protocol (from what I can tell, on the website) was 2024-08-30 https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0004.html
XMPP doesn’t change very very often, but there’s actually tons of XEPs that are in common use and are considered functionally essential for a modern client, and with much higher numbers than XEP-0004
The good news, though, is that mostly you as the user don’t need to care about those! Most of the modern clients agree on the core set and thus interoperate fine for most normal things. And most XEPs have a fallback in case the receiver doesn’t support the same XEPs.
I’m general XMPP as a protocol is a lightweight core that supports an interesting soup of modules (in the form of XEPs) to make it a real messenger in the modern sense. And I think that’s neat! But you can’t really judge the core to say how often things change.
Most of the modern clients agree on the core set and thus interoperate fine for most normal things.
So you think it is a sane solution to mark essential features as optional extensions and then have a wink-wink, nudge-nudge agreement of which of these “optional” extensions are actually mandatory? Instead of having essential features be part of the core protocol?
But more importantly, XMPP sucks because it does not have one back-end implementation like Vodozemac for Matrix. So let alone being unable to have security audits, you are forcing client developers to roll their own implementation of the e2ee, with likely little to no experience with cyber-security, and just hoping they will make no mistakes. You know, implementing encryption that even experts have hard time getting right.
Honestly, I struggle with this myself. On the one hand I like the diversity of clients; it feels like a sign of strength of the community and protocol that there are many options that have different values. But the cost of this diversity is that it makes things more complicated to coordinate, and different people with different values have different opinions on what a chat client should even want for features.
Something like Slack or Discord can roll out a server feature and client feature to all their clients all at the same time and have a unified experience. But the whole benefit of FLOSS is that anyone can fork the client to make changes, and the whole point of an open protocol is that multiple independent clients can interoperate, and so there’s a kind of irony in me wanting those things, but those things producing a fractured output.
So I think XMPP, as a protocol, does the best compromise. These differences between clients and servers aren’t just random changes in behaviour or undocumented features, they’re named, numbered, alterations that live somewhere and are advertised in the built-in “discovery” protocols. The protocol format itself is extensible, so unexpected content can be passed alongside known content in a message or a server response and the clients all know to ignore anything they don’t understand, and virtually all of the XEPs are designed with some kind of backwards compatibility in mind for how this feature might degrade when sent to a non-supported client.
It isn’t perfect, but I think perfection is impossible here. A single server and client that everyone uses and keeps up to date religiously with forced upgrades is best for cohesiveness, but worst for “freedom”, and a free-for-all where people just make random individual changes and everything is always broken isn’t really a community, and XMPP sits in the middle and has a menu of documented deviations for clients to advertise and choose.
As for security, that can be mostly solved with libraries, independent of the rest of the client or server implementation. Like, most clients used libsignal for their crypto, so that could in theory be audited and bug-fixed and all clients would benefit. Again, not perfect, there’s always room at the interface between the client code and the library code that’s unique, but it’s not as bad as rolling your own crypto.
I don’t know why people don’t use irc, I’m in it daily and it’s busier than Matrix, and even busier than some Discord servers I’m in. And there’s mobile clients. There’s even way less bots and spam
yup I went back to IRC. got tired of discord and matrix just wasn’t for me. IRC is where it’s add. still remember all the stuff from the 90s so it was just like riding a bike. plus I can have it in my Terminal which is a plus.
I think the barrier to entry is kind of high, you need to use a bouncer to see what happened while you were offline.
Yeah this is exactly what turned me off from it when I looked into it. I kind of like that it would lend a more physical-space quality to it, but ultimately I’m hardly ever online, so it would just be me being totally out of the loop all the time without a bouncer. I know I could figure out how to do it, but it’s a lot of effort for something where I’m not even sure I’ll like what it gives me.
I don’t really worry about that. I treat it like natural conversation, or traditional chat rooms. I mean I don’t need a recap when I show up at a party. I just jump in. I’ve never heard of a bouncer, but I think it would turn it into more of a feed than a conversation, which is the opposite of what I want.
I’m tired of feeds and timelines. AOL chat rooms were my formative internet years, and I liked that. I think the old style of internet communication is better than the feed silos we have now. Besides, I hardly ever go back and look at older convos in other spaces. I usually hit mark all as read when I open the app.
Problem is then you miss important info, for example if friends are talking about a game server they’re running and post the connection details, or if they plan an event with a location and time to meet, if you don’t have a bouncer and were offline then you can’t see those messages.
The bouncer is just the name for the technology that maintains your connection when your client disconnects.
I’m kind of socially awkward, so I really value being able to “read the room” and see what people were talking about before I joined. I have IRC set up so that when I open it up, I see the previous 40 lines or so of dialog from before I connected. (This is a setting you can adjust on the bouncer).
I could achieve something similar by joining a room and then waiting a few minutes, but sometimes the room is very slow and no one posts, etc., it’s nice to just always be able to look at the scroll back when you log on.
I think IRC wins by being around the longest, but also being dead simple to set up and use.
I tried using Matrix and it just honestly frazzled my head a little. I know it’s just a few extra steps to get registered, but it honestly feels like a few extra bits of friction to what amounts to trying to join a big social circle.
I had such a pain trying to get a consistent client working on mobile.
From an outsiders perspective, element has never worked for me and never been stable enough to get anywhere close to discord. Joining servers is buggy AF and Element X is severely hobbied on mobile.
I’ve been refusing to use discord for about 6-8 months and am often invites to join various discords by IRL friends and online communities. I wish Matrix / Element was a viable alternative but I’ve never been able to get it working for anythung other than DMs, and I’m already happy with Signal for that honestly.
As a non developer I want to be sensitive to the amount of work involves, and the number of cooks in the kitchen, but the fact that we don’t have a FOSS- federated slack / discord killer app is leaving so much interaction on the table.
I’ve heard of Revolt but it doesn’t seem to be there with encryption
You got PeerSuite as a newcomer, and a pretty promising one with the concept of not having any servers tied to it at all, at that.
Shit, I had such high hopes.
And that’s dashed because of some random blog?
I am glad someone can admit it failed and we have to learn from this. I am just wondering what it takes to succeed.
start with a discord clone
make it e2ee
make it federated
i feel like it shouldnt be this hard, but I’m not the one developing matrix, nor XMPP, nor the 3rd smaller option you the reader is wanting me to list that I am unaware of
Suppose for text messages, sharing files, contacts and such we have solutions, and with a set of libraries solving the hard parts, that can be done relatively easily. Encryption is hard, but suppose we are not even doing E2EE yet, that we are fine with TLS till the server, mutual TLS between servers, and additional something like OTR or PGP for 1-on-1 conversations.
Voice/video calls, and especially group voice/video calls, are a different matter entirely. You have to think, solve latency problems, congestion problems, so that those were usable at all.
Discord UI is not very nice.
I agree that the UI for discord sucks shit, however my thinking is aligned with what another commenter said, its what people already know and are used to. Trying to make anything new will turn users off. I’m very open to being proven wrong about that assumption though. I’d love for a foss project to have better UI/UX than discord.
The UI is not that important. Something a bit similar to Discord in appearance and experience is doable in plenty of available UI toolkits and libraries and frameworks and whatever.
The system itself is important, so that it would be functional with federation, yet not as prone to fragmentation as XMPP, yet efficient.
Don’t fucking clone the godaweful mess that is Discord. Please, for the love of God start with something else.
Discord is where people are at. You start with something else you’re asking for another Matrix or XMPP because people will not understand a new interface
Discord is what people like and are used to though. If you want the average user to switch it needs to be somewhat familiar.
Subjectivr experience against another. I switched an peer group from skype to matrix when matrix went offline. It was way better than i would have expected. Perhaps the timing was better. The element client seems really good, beside some minor jank(like screen share doesn’t work) that was probably waylands fault, its a very good experience.
Iv tried matrix a couple times. I wanted to like it but couldnt get on with it.
Signal and simplex are still my prefrence
Try out Session. It’s one of the best ones that are lesser known
Iv used session before, its not for me Not sure how i feel about the onion routing using the loki and oxen network.
Signal has that “whatsapp” feel friends and family find easy and simplex has no identifiers some other cool features but can be a little complicated for some users
I am still mad that are no clients that supports multiple accounts. So I am ending up installing for each account a different client.
Element Desktop has profiles. But sadly there are no profiles on the mobile app.
NeoChat on KDE allows me to choose which account to login to when I start it.
Does it let you be logged in as both ?
If I want to send and receive messages from another account, I have to press 2 buttons to switch to it. Otherwise, I still get desktop notifications from all of them, I think.
Fluffy chat allows multiple accounts
I like this client. Thanks for the tip.
I see what you did here. Say something wrong on the internet to get multiple helpful tips.
I always liked the concept of Matrix, and still actively use it, but there’s some serious jank. Synapse is generally bloated and not fun to run an instance, Dendrite is perpetually in Beta, and the clients themselves range from adequate to awful. The default Element client on Android is so broken for me that I’m forced to use Element X, because I can’t even log in with Element.
It’s disappointing, but there’s a ton of issues that aren’t so easy to resolve. New Vector and the Element Foundation are basically two separate entities that have some kind of hard split between them, neither of which seems to have the money necessary to support comprehensive development. The protocol is said to be bloated and overtly complex, and trying to develop a client or a server implementation is something of a nightmare.
I want to see Matrix succeed, I think a lot of people see the potential of what it could be. I’m not sure it’ll ever get there.
I always liked the concept of Matrix, and still actively use it, but there’s some serious jank.
I use Element as well as Beeper, which is at its core an Element client based on network bridging. I’m a big fan of Matrix, but it isn’t as approachable as other messaging services and requires some technical know-how to use effectively.
It seems like the Linux of messaging services.
Self hosted matrix works great. /thread
I’ve been hosting a server without much problems for several years now.
Synapse and Riot.im (now Element) became much better around 2019 or 2020. But not too long ago, I also found out that Synapse also bloats the DB with state_groups_state table. There are a handful of commands that come with synapse, but no built-in admin tool or panel, so I wrote my own. Moving server to another host has been seamless for my (few) users. TURN/STUN for calls seems to work okay (I don’t really use it though).
I appreciate Element being uniform across platforms (which I cannot say about XMPP clients), but the sign-in is pretty tedious, and registration with a token is still impossible last time I checked (which is either a hassle for the user to use another client and then their smart device, or a security issue if you open registration to anyone). Most normal people probably don’t care and don’t want to deal with keys, cross-verification, and all that jazz.
Yeah, I finally pulled the trigger and moved to my own domain from
matrix.org. Man, it is just so much faster. Which is sad, because the performance is pretty bad. (Element Web seems to do some per-room request as part of the initial loading screen which is obviously not scalable) but getting off ofmatrix.orgis a huge performance improvement.That being said there is nothing really wrong with
matrix.org. The problem is really public rooms. People will join and spam. It is true of any protocol (have you heard about email?) but Matrix definitely needs to (and they are slowly working on) make it more expensive for spammers.
I agree with all this. The thing which caused me to uninstall was suddenly being pushed lots of abusive message with disturbing contents.
When I complained about it, Matrix told me that my public complaints were hurting the ecosystem and I should be quiet.
When I complained about it, Matrix told me that my public complaints were hurting the ecosystem and I should be quiet.
Weird. I think they did some improvement to prevent those abusive messages but it took a while and it was embarrassing. Maybe it’s hard to prevent them with a federated network but still, the abusive messages where basically a copy paste.
I had a wild ride with matrix, originally wanting to run a node on my server. That did not turn out well, because I was a bit stupid and just assumed there would be more admin/mod tools out of the box. As it turned out, I had inadvertently allowed spam/abuse accounts on my node without even noticing, because naive as I was, I assumed my admin-level account would get informed of stuff like user registrations and abuse reports in the standard Element frontend. As a bonus, when I checked what was supposedly the official matrix support channel, it was repeatedly getting spammed with CSAM and gore at the time. That was when I realised, that it definitely was not the ecosystem for me, and running a node without experience had been a pretty stupid idea on my end.
Yeah. I an hosting a homeserver for my ttrpg groups, but it doesn’t have any federation enwbled at all, and sign ups are invite-only.
The amount of work needed to moderate a public instance, especially with the lacking tools available, seems crazy. Also, I don’t love it that New Vector has an implementation for an admin console, that seems to be available exclusively for paying subscribers to the enterprise version of their element server suite.
I have to wonder if there is a major commercial interest in that though.
The CSAM spam is so annoying. I don’t understand who is doing this or why.
Oh fuck that culty nonsense!
