Whatever can be destroyed by the truth should be destroyed by the truth. (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/03/13/destroy/)
Sounds great, when do we start?
BYD?
Former GM Executive: BYD cars are better and cheaper than American. If we let BYD into the U.S. Market, we wouldn’t be able to be greedy and enshitify our products any more, which would end up destroying american car manufacturers. FTFY.
P.S. Actually the average american would be benefited from that
Well, nearly half a million mostly union jobs would also be lost, causing a minor recession at the very least. Even if the jobs partially come back in the form of BYD plants, they probably wouldn’t be union jobs.
Really, why is that? Is it maybe you are too greedy and make garbage? Is it? Hun?
Fuck executives.
That’s part of it, but it also helps that the Chinese government heavily subsidizes their auto industry.
Tbf so do we
Not nearly to the same amount.
Remember when China gave its biggest auto manufacturers $85 billion to keep them from going out of business when they made a bunch of bad financial decisions? Oh wait that was the US.
Anytime we bail out a company, I think we should nationalize it. We should just buy it from them.
Meanwhile, instead of trying to compete they cripple all EV advancement to make a quick buck on fossil fuel.
So free markets are a terrible idea now and countries practicing import substitution weren’t impoverishing their people.
US hypocrisy at it’s finest.
It’s not a free market.
BYD is heavily subsidized .
American car makers famously unsubsidized and holding up their own pants.
The oil industry is famously completely independent from government subsidy. Especially when it comes to setting urban development policy and planning transportation systems, these have no bearing at all oil demand and they also cost nothing.
Compared globally? Yeah mostly so.
What subsides do US cars get that other countries don’t have similar programs?
Pretty sure big oil and car companies have been bailed out by the US government in the past. Plus america designs most of its cities so that you need to own a car. Seems like both markets are equally “free” at the end of the day.
A one time loan which made money is hardly a subsidy by comparison to China right now. That’s an absurd comparison. Apples to oranges. Hell apples to baseballs.
There is also CAFE standards that made small, effecient vehicles require extremely high emissions standards while allowing looser standards for larger, less effecient vehicles. Effectively limiting foriegn market influence while increasing both the price and size of the average vehicle on American roads.
That’s not a competitive subsidy though. Anyone can and don take advantage of those emissions. The US does not have access to China subsidized materials or labor to compete in that market.
BYD could build here and take advantage of that.
The US actually heavily tariffs foreign-made vehicles that could skirt the CAFE requirements the way American trucks do. Light trucks suffer the Chicken Tax and can only be made in Canada, US or Mexico to bypass that. Been that way since the UAW boss asked LJB to do something about the German imports growing.
So build them here, like every other foreign auto maker.
They accomplish two completely different effects by two completely different mechanisms. The former being available to every manufacturer.
The majority shareholder at GM is the US treasury.
One of the majority holders at Stelantis is their workers’ union.
„Free market“? Speaking of hypocrisy. Chinese car brands are so heavily subsidized they probably cost the Chinese economy more than they make selling them at the moment. China is clearly trying to drown the global market with cheap cars so they can ramp up prices immensely once they have killed the competition and have become a monopoly. China hasn‘t been the extreme low income country to produce super cheaply for a long time and they couldn‘t produce cars this cheap in a free market situation.
Many countries and the EU have measures against such practices because state run operations with the sole purpose to destroy an industry (which this is) undermine the very idea of the free market or even trade relationships.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers and play the same little game China is playing but more cars is honestly the last thing we need right now. Tariffs are a much smoother option to deal with this even when they have a bad rep.
Ideally we use that generated money from tariffs to subsidize public transport so we don‘t get cheaper cars but cheaper alternatives but that‘s still just a dream I‘m afraid.
Whatever the case, one should look at super cheap cars and what that means in the long run more critically.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers
We have been. Bailout after bailout. For the longest fucking time, and have had insane trade rules and tarrigs in place for decades and decades. I’d argue this is what another country finally being able to play on a level playing field.
You can‘t compare a bailout with an aggressive offensive. Especially since western car makers and many other manufacturers outsourced to China in the process. There are few to no parallels to be drawn here. A more accurate, albeit tasteless comparison would be the China opium wars. Because that‘s essentially what they‘re aiming to do: Making us addicts to their product.
After the auto industry intentionally killed public transport.
The fact that one of the most powerful monopolies in the world went bankrupt and was forced to be bailed out by taxpayers more than once should really be a disqualifier for any future endeavors.
you accidentally forget to pay ur credit card minimum for one month and you’re docked so many credit score points that you’re ineligible for being given a loan.
but we bail out these megacorps time and again and just keep letting them operate like nothing’s amiss
shit’s borked (intentionally, to favor those with means)
Is it a level playing field? In China workers rights are pretty non-existent and there’s no OSHA equivalent, at least not to the degree we have in the US. Then add in government subsidies, lower worker pay, reduced R&D costs because they pilfered the engineering from a US company, and you end up with a very lopsided market.
To be clear, I am in no way defending the US auto industry. They have little customer loyalty for a reason – low quality, overpriced, subscription dependent vehicles with terrible warranties, expensive service requirements, and invasive telemetry. They need more competition to force them to make more consumer-friendly decisions, but China is hardly a fair competitor.
In China workers rights are pretty non-existent and there’s no OSHA equivalent, at least not to the degree we have in the US
How much maternity leave d’you get in the US? Cause in China it’s a minimum of 90 days up to 180. And an extra 15~30 days of pat leave. Mandatory paid holiday? US: 0 China: 11. Sick leave? US: 0 China: months (at reduced rate). Vacation? US: 0, China: 1 to 3 weeks.
An employer that fails to allow an employee to take annual leave must pay that employee 300% of the employee’s daily wages for each unused vacation day
The work sfatey certainly remains an issue, like any developing country, but things are rapidly improving.
Efforts at work safety shall be oriented around people and reflect the principle of people first and life first, with top priority given to people’s life safety. The philosophy of safe development shall be adhered to and the principles of safety first, prevention as the main target as well as comprehensive administration shall be followed to forestall and resolve major safety risks at the source.
http://en.npc.gov.cn.cdurl.cn/2021-06/10/c_786248.htm
Things aren’t all roses in China, but y’all have to get off of your high horse when you know fuck all other than bland ass propaganda.
When was the second bailout? Or the first if you’re referring to something older.
GM received more than $7 billions of subsidies and around $50 billions of “Federal loans, loan guarantees and bailout assistance”.
US auto manufacturers are getting their fair share of subsidies.
We have subsidized the big three many times, and they return nothing back. At this point, they should be nationalized.
You have a very simple way of looking at things and are part of the problem that is going on.
Your ignorance is showing. Tuck it in.
You tankies really have a way with words.
If something is being so heavily subsidized, the correct market response is to buy as much as possible, and resell once the prices ramp up.
Setting up tariffs and complaining about subsidies? 100% not the “free market” response. It’s cope.
Are you trying to be funny or something? Used electric cars aren‘t exactly going up in price. What a bunch of nonsense. Talking about cope.
True, even Milton Friedman (barf) said we should be thankful if someone wants to subsides our lives. Besides these market extremists say all government intervention is bound to fail, so they should have nothing to fear letting the BYDs in. The socialist subsidy of BYD will collapse and we don’t want the government distorting our market either.
This isn’t really my personal take, but i like using their own logic to reach a conclusion they will hate.
Free markets were always a terrible idea, the USA economic system was basically founded on principles of regulation of goods like tea, tobacco, and alcohol.
Our free market’s good, yours is the problem! Gotta read the fine print!
I don’t give two cents for the american auto brands but spare me the drama: try and make a proper car.
Looking at Ford: try importing a few models from the european line and offer it in the states. Small, economic, somewhat reliable, fuel efficient cars.
Stellantis has a slew of models that could be brought into the american market. They make good cars.
And I’m willing to bet GM as a few models they build and market overseas that would be guaranteed sucesses.
Not enough Americans will buy small euro cars. Do you seriously think they wouldn’t just do that if they could justify the cost of switching off a f150 assembly line to make a small car they would. Ford and Chevy both had a ton of small cars throughout the years but the sales aren’t there anymore.
Ford stopped making cars because they can’t compete with the current crop of cars coming from Japan/Korea and Europe regardless of how much money they throw at the problem. They have their niche with trucks and SUVs and are happy to stay there. China builds cars using massive government subsidies, slave labor, and local resources that aren’t available to anyone else in the world which is why I think it’s right to fight against them because it’s impossible to compete against them just like a small local grocery store can’t compete against Walmart.
China builds cars using massive government subsidies, slave labor, and local resources that aren’t available to anyone else in the world
Why are Japanese and Korean cars also better/cheaper than American cars then?
Slave labor
Citation needed
Massive government subsidies
The US doesn’t massively subsidise auto-makers?
But yeah china bad
You’d have an argument if legacy manufacturers were trying. We could talk about support if they were willing. They don’t want it. They’ve already given up
By “legacy manufacturers” you mean every major auto manufacturer in the world that isn’t based in China?Nobody else is selling new cars for as little as $4k because other countries aren’t using slave labor in mines and factory floors. It’s impossible to compete against that unless you engage in it yourself.
China builds cars using massive government subsidies
The federal government ended the the EV subsidy a few years ago.
slave labor
lmao. We know what slavery looks like, you can see it in the cotton fields outside Angola Prison, rows of enslaved people, and overseer on a horse, all behind barbed wire. In Xinjiang I saw farmers driving combine harvesters in roadside fields.
local resources that arent available
You’re getting closer. Through 1 and 5 year plans, the CPC uses SoEs (and sometimes just asks private companies “nicely”) to ensure the foundational inputs, steel, rubber, chips, college graduates, etc are all available to industry at the specific price point and volume that competing private firms need to produce say, 100m EVs or a million more apartments.
Any country can do a little central planning to make sure private industry has what it needs, but this only works if you’re able to take action against companies that exploit the system.
The federal government ended the the EV subsidy a few years ago.
Buyers of any EV not just American EVs.
lmao. We know what slavery looks like, you can see it in the cotton fields outside Angola Prison, rows of enslaved people, and overseer on a horse, all behind barbed wire.
I’m glad you find slavery so comical.
Were these inmates enslaved for their religious beliefs being different than the official party line? We they imprisoned for not wanting to be controlled by a dictatorship? No. No they weren’t.
Through 1 and 5 year plans, the CPC uses SoEs (and sometimes just asks private companies “nicely”) to ensure the foundational inputs, steel, rubber, chips, college graduates, etc are all available to industry at the specific price point and volume that competing private firms need to produce say, 100m EV or a million more apartments.
Gee, it sure sounds like you’re listing even more slavery than I mentioned. Imagine Trump declaring that every college grad needs to make themselves available to build a border wall.
Any country can do a little central planning to make sure private industry has what it needs, but this only works if you’re able to take action against companies that exploit the system.
The only exploitation mentioned here is the government exploiting the people. It seems your argument is based on your warped belief that if the US is committing atrocities than it’s okay for everyone else to do so, yet your examples are in stark contrast to what’s happening here. Your views are frankly quite disgusting and proof of how absurd the Chinese government’s propaganda arm is.
Buyers of any EV not just American EVs.
I was talking about china, their federal govt ended ev subsidies in 2022. I suspect some city and provincial level govts still do various types of subsidies.
We they imprisoned for not wanting to be controlled by a dictatorship?
Bro are you trying to justify slavery in the US? You dont have to do that to criticize China. But you have to have to learn about its actual problems, not just accept any silly stories western media comes up with. Try visiting some time, its incredibley cheap, you can rent out decent sized apartments for 15/night in most cities, theres also sleeper trains, combine transport and 1 nights lodging, and food is often <2usd/meal.
Imagine Trump declaring that every college grad needs to make themselves available to build a border wall.
That’s not how that works at all, they simply invest more into educating people into a particular field to ensure there will be enough people with the required skills in a particular area.
How did you even misinterpret my post like that?
You are wrong. American manufacturers are captured by the oil conglomerates to sell fuel. That’s why you have giant behemoths barrelling down the highways. F150s have almost doubled in size over the last two decades.
Ok👍
We will put that on their headstone.
Maybe they should advocate for better fuel regulations and densification ;)
Uh, to be clear, I don’t think Michael Dunne is advocating against China in this context. He worked in the Chinese auto sector for decades. He isn’t an alarmist, he’s their salesman.
What Ford European line? They discontinued the Mondeo and their minivans. Now it’s hatch or crappy SUV. Or Mustang. Oh wait. Focus is end of life too now. It’s mustang or crappy crossover SUVs only.
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
That would require companies roll profits back into development and their employees instead of pocketing it all, schemes like stock buybacks and wall st traders.
I hate that the US is like this. People would EASILY pay more for American if the quality was there. But ffs they don’t even try anymore. They just make slop and expect us to pay more for it.
Which sucks because I did use to think that “Made in the USA” meant better quality.
Were you born in 1960 or something? That hasn’t been true for 50+ years
Also labor price is unmatched. Nobody would work for the wage they give to children in China, so you can’t really go that much cheaper while not sacrificing safety.
Not saying Chinese cars are that well made.
China has compulsory education for children just like America. There’s no child labor in China.
They pay adult workers less in China, but these yuan has 7x buying power than the dollar in China
That’s what Chinese propagandists want you to think, there are way more people living in (borderline) poverty (per capita) than in the US.
Social media is being fed with a slice of mainland China, but anything beyond that is people struggling to keep ends meet.
They’re being pretty ruthless about grabbing all the world’s resources to make them as well.
No the rest of the world has been sleeping when China silently bought all the mines and harbors in the past decades.
China is performing a new colonialism. Exploiting poor countries for their cheap resources.
While the rest of the world is trying to steer away from it because it is so horrible. So please, don’t praise China for it.
If our CEOs and business leaders are supposedly the world’s best, why didn’t they spent their capital shutting China down instead of their lavish lifestyles and payouts for their wealthy stockholders? I guess they aren’t as good at running businesses as they claim to be.
When the only goal by law is maximize profits, the motivation tends to favor minimizing cost. Change the rules, and enforce a new set of values. Only then will the situation improve.
That and the fact that these people aren’t patriots. They’re looters. They don’t believe in America per se. They believe in the economic system that advantages them and disadvantages others. It’s just that simple. America is no longer a land of opportunity. Perpetual poverty is their goal. Keeping people down is the point.
I have to concede that i believe you might be right about that, sadly.
Very few children work in china right now, Chinese workers even have 5 days of vacation a year by law.
That’s 5 more than the US…
There were probably more children working on farms in the US than in china, and I remember something about Florida wanting to reinstate child labour again?
This is the slavery they are refrencing i think.
BYD did get caught using slave labor.
https://apnews.com/article/brazil-slave-labor-china-car-factory-byd-991c5670eefdd564fd465648b77b3869
Yes, there may not be child labor. But in places we cannot see, there are still black industry chains. A brick factory was exposed some time ago. They let some people with low IQ or disabilities work. They were not given masks, and the air was full of dust. They may work more than ten hours a day or even more. What is the difference between this and slavery? I just want to give this example to illustrate that there are still many black-hearted factories in society, and there is also the possibility of employing child labor. In China, young people who have not studied will choose to work in factories, but they must be at least 16 years old. If they are younger, they will not be hired. Back to the issue of BYD, although we are proud that it can be recognized by the world as a Chinese brand, and many people in China also buy it. But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc. Someone exposed the chat records within the company. We are all ordinary people. We just want to fight for our rights. Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
Yes but they are trying to better themselves, it’s a slow process, but there is progress. And they came a long way since the 70’s.
Countries like America are going backwards. At this rate the USA is a worse country for the working class than China in 20 years, if not already.
We still have a question, why do we work so hard when we have achieved what we have now? We envy people in Europe, who have easy work. Every time we take a holiday, we have to make up for it with more working days. You often say that Chinese people are hardworking, but the younger generation does not want to suffer unnecessary hardships. We realize that we come to this world to enjoy life, not to spend the best decades of our lives working.
I think it’s about being content with what you have. Not always wanting more and bigger and better. I have a comfortable salary, nothing too much, loads of people earn way more, but i can pay my mortgage and all other costs, don’t have to worry about losing my job. And still have enough money left to spend on nice things.
I don’t have to save up loads of money for medical bills or other unfortunate events. I can just easily live my life.
That having said I’m still fed up with the daily grind, so I’m selling the house now to retire early somewhere in Spain or Italy, hopefully going off grid somewhere in the mountains enjoying peace and quiet and nature, embracing my inner hermit.
I also want to save money to buy a house in our village. Most of us came to the city from the countryside, but I don’t have enough money. I don’t think I am not ungrateful, but the salary of the company is indeed lower than the industry average. That’s why I think so. Your life seems wonderful — I truly wish you all the best.
But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc.
Lol, managers are Tesla are contracted for 80hr work weeks…
Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
Agreed! Fuck em all!
Like we don’t have child labor here in the good ol’ USA.
First the enshittified the food
Then the health care
Then every consumer product
Finally they enshittified the nation itself
Before that they enshitified the labor movement and unions via red scare tactics so there was less resistance to the enshitification process
That’s fine.
Also, slave labor.
So Canada, how are they?
We can’t buy Chinese EV’s in Canada thanks to the 100% tariff imposed by the GoC. I wish they’d get rid of the tariff. Our cheapest EV option right now is the Fiat 500e and that starts at over $30,000.
I guarantee u US pressured Canada into not allowing byd
Only if they chose not to compete
The income stream would disappear, their operations would collapse and that would just be the end. There would not be another manufacturer that would flourish in the void left behind. Without the institutional know how and the existing structure, supply chain the current car manufacturing industry would never be able to restart if it ever stopped.
The social darwinism of the globalist free market is meant for crushing the spirit and bargaining power of individual workers, they are replaceable, disposable, interchangeable. General Motors and Ford aren’t.
I think that’s kind of the point. What the current case industry is doing is getting them smoked. They need to let go of the past the “institutional knowledge” that’s exactly why Ford and Chevy won’t compete with Chinese EV. Those are built from the ground up for the modern era with modern leadership modern supply chains building institutional knowledge that matters today and into the future. I would love nothing more than to drive a Ford EV. I am considering the f150 lightning but in comparison to things I see online it’s really far behind.
Well they’d have to cut c-suite and shareholder’s cut because everything else that could be squeezed out has already been squeezed out, so the c-suite and shareholder will convert their money into the political power it takes to just block out the competition.
The problem is the world is transitioning to EVs, and burying your head in the sand won’t change that. Legacy manufacturers could be trying to find their place in the new world while they can, or they can stick with technology of the past, let someone else come to dominate the new technologies, and be left with a ever shrinking market until they disappear
Have you seen those byd cars on YouTube. Their mid price cars look like high end Mercedes over here. Meanwhile Ford and Chevy will sell you a $75000 pickup with all plastic interior.
None of the legacy companies are competing. Ever. The best we can hope for is rivian and other new players filling the gap.
I’ve test driven a few BYD models here in Australia. 50 thousand dollarydoos for an electric car that goes 400+km, can power your house in a blackout, has all the normal electric car performance (6 seconds to 100kmhr) and is chock full of user comforts and safety features.
There are a LOT of these getting around in Brisbane, and for good reason. I didn’t get one this time round, but by the time the lease expires on my Volvo EX30 in 4 years, I’ll be looking pretty hard at BYD. Especially if they get their new solid state batteries going by then.
So when can we stop with this “free markets” nonsense in the third world aswell??
There hasn’t every been a free market. Its a captive market. When you can only succeed by denying a competitor into a market you prove that. They refuse to rist to the challenge because they don’t have to.
