I was talking to one of my friends and he mentioned staying home on July 4, citing how there are a lot of really ugly things going on in the US.
After thinking about this myself, I’m starting to feel the same way. Instead of being proud of the country, I’m feeling like I’m just another wallet that companies and the government are trying to suck all the money out of.
The cost of living is going up, the housing market is a nightmare, I don’t feel very confident in our government at all, the job market is a nightmare…
I think I’ll be staying home this year too… anyone else?
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Same I will be working on the 4th so I’ll just be making good hoilday pay while most of my trump supporting coworkers will be celebrating the downfall of this country. Fuck this shit, fuck everyone who is onboard with the current situation of this country. Stay safe everyone.
I have never really felt patriotic for that date, June 6th is more apropriate, or even better, june 20th (this year)
It’s been decades since I’ve cared about the 4th as an actual holiday. Now it’s just a day that I don’t have to work.
Good day to march on your White House, perhaps…
I thought about this too. In the past I used to go to protests because I felt that if our leaders saw the protest that they might change their mind about something.
Now, so many of our citizens are so insane, they think you won’t actually protest unless George Soros pays you. I also can’t picture Trump seeing a protest and saying “I think I’ll reconsider…” It feels more futile than ever.
I’ve found that it gives hope to those who hate the direction the nation is going, but feel isolated. We are not a tiny minority, and we need to act like it.
It’s never futile. Sure, Trump will never listen, never care about anyone whose not himself, never face justice (crap, now you’re depressing me), but what about Al the minion who do his bidding. I mean, they’re evil too, but going deeper ….
This all can’t happen without supporters. Maybe it’s voters who are low information or easily manipulated finally seeing the truth. Maybe it’s federal employees feeling the support to do the right thing. Maybe it’s law enforcement growing shame at how they’ve been used. Maybe it’s judicial branch standing up from being marginalized and corporatized, fighting back against legalized bribery and corroded ethics at the highest court.
The billionaires big bill was passed in the senate on a tie breaker. It would have take only one more senator to be swayed. Big elections coming up in a little over a year- your peers might elect someone who will actually serve them. Various states and cities, corps and law firms are standing up for what’s right: maybe you can get one more
youre not alone
https://moist.catsweat.com/m/politics@lemmy.world/t/1461125/National-pride-is-declining-in-America-And-it-s-splitting-by
This link is broken
hmmmm try this
https://lemmy.world/post/32286445
the other link is from an instance with a log in requirement
Thanks, that works now
I haven’t “celebrated” the fourth in nearly a decade for this reason. On top of that fireworks are pretty bad for everything and those with PTSD.
On top of that fireworks are pretty bad for everything and those with PTSD.
My coworkers dog would thank you very much as well for not shooting off fireworks. He said he usually drives out of town for a few hours until it dies down because his dog gets terrified :(
Yeah, forgot to mention pets. All of mine hate the fireworks, so it makes for a miserable time all around.
And it’s not just pets either, wildlife also gets affected by firework
I normally enjoy some fireworks every year, but have zero interest this year.
Kinda interesting how you US-Americans have a certain day for being even more patriotic than the average US-patriotism rest of the time. As a German I personally haven’t felt patriotic at any point in my life and most of the people I know (probably more left-leaning than German average) always looked at your patriotism (espacially on July 4th) with a certain lack of understanding. Why even be patriotic? Why always raise the US-flag? Why are there Florida men running through hurricanes with an US-flag? I know independence and stuff, but still why celebrate your patriotism even more on a specific date, even as a more left-leaning person?
July 4th is the day our nation was founded which is what merits the fanfare. I would also say that the “displays of patriotism” you may see are largely cherry picked examples. Your typical american doesn’t wear american flag regalia, much less own an american flag and wave it around.
Right now, the reason you are seeing such a pronounced amount of patriotism for Independence day, and I use that term loosely, is due to it being both the 250th anniversary and the current unpopular administration trying to project an alternate reality where they are in tune with the will of the people and establish legitimacy.
There is a lot that can probably be said about the erosion of patriotism in the US as it was co-opted by conservative groups in order to push unpopular policies throughout our nations brief span of existence and it likely ties into the destruction of our education system, but I’d rather let someone more knowledgable tackle that topic.
I deliberately exaggerated, but I dont’t understand patriotism in general (see comment under OPs response on my comment).
Ah, I misunderstood then. To oversimplfy patriotism is being able to love the people, thoughts, and accomplishments of a community (country) that you belong to while seeing and understanding its flaws.
I’ve seen some other comments here describe it to various extremes but there is a clear line between patriotism and nationalism (e.g. Nazis, MAGA, etc) A patriot understands that their country isn’t infallible, a nationalist beilieves it is.
For some people the only thing they have is this sense of belonging to a group, and for others this sense of belonging is what incites them to implicitly care for the success of others.
To clarify not everyone is a patriot, nor a nationalist. People have a wide range of feelings and perceptions on the idea of a nation and their place in it.
I apologize if this doesn’t provide more clarity. The topic of patriotism is largely a philisophocal one that would take more time to yap about than I have on my lunch break lol
The USA has never had an event to make Americans from shame for the country. It isn’t like the USA hasn’t done shameful acts, but there hasn’t been a reconging of what the country has done.
Most of us just like the day off from work, or the holiday pay if you have to work. and that’s where it ends.
I mean, I’d think of it as like being proud of your home and the accomplishments of the country. That doesn’t seem very odd to me. It’s just that lately, I feel like as a nation we are just making so many mistakes and I feel ashamed, not proud of the country.
I have no enthusiasm to raise the US flag this July 4th, excepting maybe showing it upside down as a sign of distress.
When I think about the US and its future, I just get a sinking feeling and I don’t feel very happy about it. I’m ashamed how far this country has fallen in the past two decades.
proud of your home and the accomplishments of the country
Don’t really understand that either. I could understand celebrating the date at which you got an united democracy, that’s certainly an accomplishment. Even that happend a quarter millennium ago, you (not even your grandmother) didn’t take part in it and nowadays there’s no British monarchy you can annoy by being a democracy, but celebrating democracy as a concept always is great. But you don’t do that. All what I see from the Atlantic Ocean’s other side is some people celebrating something which is written under “Nationality” in their passports. I personally can’t celebrate something as complex/indefinite as a country. I don’t think complex really is the best word for it, but what I mean is that countries never are only good and also “country” itself is a term so obscure and indefinite. The country existed for nearly 250 years, billions of people lived in it and some terrible stuff happend in and because of it. Wars and crimes and war crimes of leading personell, etc. Surely also some good stuff, but how to seperate that? You simply can’t. Is Ronald Reagan part of what you’re celebrating, is Donald Trump part of it? Is democracy part of it? Is some random 1800s-farmer part of it? Are people even part of it and if no why? Are the country’s borders part of it? Is the tree standing in your backyard part of it? You can’t ignore the killing of civilians in Vietnam war while including democracy or can you? What’s home? Is it your family? Your house? Both?
One thing is for sure: You aren’t the country, you just live at some place on the world which happens to be territory of something named “USA”. Same for me, I have been born at some place which happens to be territory of something called “Germany”. Why should I be proud about the place where I was born? That’s no achievement, I didn’t even contribute to it. I’m proud that I managed to contribute to democracy by protesting and voting. I also felt proud about the A I got in some elementary school test. I’m really proud about switching from Windows to Arch Linux in less than 2 hours. I may some day feel proud for my children while watching them doing something great. I contributed to all of this more or less directly and I can feel proud about it for that reason. But why should I feel proud about a country? Germany is nothing I’m responsible for, the (current path of the) USA is nothing you are responsible for. If you were responsible for it, why shouldn’t I be too?
We can’t feel proud about it, we can’t feel ashamed for it, because it isn’t our fault. However we can change the current situation. Changing the world, having the courage to try it, is something we can feel proud about.
This is just such an odd post for me. I know people that have Nordic or Germanic ancestors and love to celebrate and love that part of their heritage with yearly parties or festivals. Isn’t it a normal human reaction to feel proud of your “tribe”?
I’m not claiming to have invented the USA, and sure, I was just born here. I didn’t land on the moon myself, but I feel proud of the USA when I think about Neil Armstrong doing it.
The USA isn’t all bad, and my life would have had a different track if I was born somewhere else. I think you might be reading too much into it? July 4 isn’t some kind of cult meeting over here where we all chant over the flag and run around in robes. For most people, there’s maybe a parade, a cookout or two, and a day off.
Of all the problems in the USA, people celebrating July 4 or feeling some national pride is way down on my list, and I’d say somewhat typical of people to feel proud about their home.
people that have Nordic or Germanic ancestors and love to celebrate and love that part of their heritage with yearly parties or festivals.
To be honest: Sounds like some nazi stuff, at least that would be my first impression if someone did it here.
Isn’t it a normal human reaction to feel proud of your “tribe”?
Sarcasm joins the room May be, but killing each other was a normal human reaction for millenia. Sadly still is today sometimes.
NASA is great and I really like it, I feel good for humanity because it is able to do different thing than killing. I wouldn’t call that proud, because I didn’t contribute to it. Even space travelling is to complex to like all of it, moon landing was part of some foolish trial of strength on earth- No, I won’t overanalyse it.
I know your July 4th isn’t a cult meeting, but patriotism seems like something invented for people who have nothing they can feel proud about, because they haven’t archived something to be proud about. (Don’t take that personal.) At the same time patriotism tends to sperate different groups of people which shouln’t be seperated since they all are part of humanity and could archive great stuff together. It’s the one thing evil persons can rely on if they want to create a scapegoat to make people fight this scapegoat instead of seeing that they –the people– all are just part of humanity and should revolt against their evil leaders.
To be honest: Sounds like some nazi stuff, at least that would be my first impression if someone did it here.
WTF?? I went to one of these parties with my neighbor and he shared his favorite bratwurst recipe and prepared delicious cabbage dishes for us. How does that relate to Nazis?!? You do realize not every German is a Nazi, right?
Just to remember: I’m German myself. I didn’t say they are nazis, I said “Sounds like some nazi stuff, at least that would be my first impression if someone did it here”. I don’t want to implement Godwin’s Law in this constructive discussion. In my opinion it sounds like nazi stuff, because a lot of German nazis I know love to fantasize about their “Germanic roots”. That’s my first impression while I don’t have much detail what you are referring to, since I never experienced such a celebration myself.
Could you understand my position better by what I wrote aside from that stuff about Garmanic celebrations? Because I would like to better understand the US-American view on patriotism while explaining my own.
I could substitute some other examples but the two most recent events I had attended were those two nationalities / heritage. In the past, it’s been Portuguese, Polish, French, Irish and probably a few more I’ve forgotten.
I think if you want to understand the American view on patriotism, just have a giant crowd of people who rarely, if ever, leave their country, speak only English, are fed propaganda that their country is the best in all areas, has massive problems with education, and then you have the American public.
If you are told your country is the best, are very incurious and are fed propaganda, you will love your country unconditionally. I don’t want to give you the impression that everyone in the country is brainwashed, I’m just trying to convey that at least a percentage of our population honestly believes they live in the best country in the world.
Don’t get me wrong, the USA is still highly developed and has its strengths, but if you look at some (what I believe to be) important statistics like, life expectancy, literacy rate, happiness index, internet speed, press freedom, we sure as hell aren’t #1, but we aren’t in last place either.
It’s been sad to watch science come under increasing criticism instead of developing positively. Just today, a new budget was proposed for the federal government that makes sweeping cuts to quite a few organizations, like the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA (our space agency), and most importantly, the National Science Foundation.
The one thing that I feel good about is even if we drop the ball here in the USA, other countries won’t stand still and will continue to fund and pursue science, technology and education.
The reasons above is why I find it hard to be excited and wave an American flag around on the 4th. Things could be worse but they could be a hell of a lot better too.
It hasn’t really fallen, it’s just saying the quiet part out loud for once.
fr, it’s honestly just business as usual except some white people are facing material consequences and their government is being too obvious with its imperialism.
US was built on fascist doctrine and will continue that legacy until systematic change.
God I hate Lemmy sometimes. Go buy some fireworks, get the grill out, and hang with family. I don’t fucking care if you’re not into it. Just do it.
Get off the screen for a few hours. You need it
America’s president and americans voting for him twice, y’all are the most evil idiotic lunatics to ever exist. Go celebrate your stupidness, in your nazi country hope y’all proud of that, go celebrate be happy what an ugly disgusting country y’all have become. Most hated country in the world. Karma will come for all of your asses, dont sleep any night.
You should go touch grass too
You’re in the wrong sub.
I don’t fucking care if you’re not into it. Just do it.
What’s the point in doing it if I’m not into it? Who am I doing it for at that point?
Your own mental health
I dont need an occation to touch grass and meet friends
Op does
Aww, conservadaddy is upset the American tradition is dying of its own consequences. “Just do it 😭” they say.
🎻 🎶
How do fireworks help my neighbor’s PTSD, let alone my own mental health?
I can grill on my own time, thanks.
Don’t be a Debbie Downer
And then he said what! Lmfaooo
boom boom out go the lights
No
Yes. It’ll be good for you
How the hell would you know? Any fool who assets that they know what’s best for a complete strange they know nothing about is not someone I would EVER trust.
Celebrating a descent into fascism? Oh, but of course, celebrating the complete breakdown of social support structures as they’re replaced with the populace getting terrorized by our own military is OBVIOUSLY such an unparalleled cause for celebration.
Wait, no, that’s fucking asinine. When did you last touch grass, buddy???
Go touch grass.
See, you can’t even get that right. They just sprayed my lawn!
Sheesh, dude. It’s like you’re not even trying! Oh, wait… ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
There’s grass outside of your own lawn. Go touch grass.
Oh, god. You’re so boring!!
LIVE A LITTLE!
I’d say it won’t hurt, bit I lie. Don’t worry, though; it builds character. 😆
But seriously, go away now…
I mean I always stay home because I’m an introvert, but yeah, mirroring what other’s have already said in this thread, I haven’t had much to feel patriotic about since at least the Dubya Bush years. So probably more than 20 years of not feeling it.
I don’t know if I ever did but I certainly don’t now.
Not being American I always found the whole thing very creepy. Like, North Korean military parade-creepy.
For the record, we don’t have anything like that where I’m from, but the closest things we do have are also very creepy. Patriotism in general is extremely not cool, honestly.
As an American I never really liked the holiday, (I agree patriotism sucks) but I wouldn’t say it’s that it really feels creepy other than the few people who really go over the top with it. Most people just use it as an excuse to barbeque and watch / light off fireworks (which I’m just personally not into)
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
America and North Korea aren’t alone in some kind of pledge for the country, are we? I have a memory of Chinese students doing the same type of thing, but I’m not entirely sure.
Over here the only similar events I can think of are related to joining the military and taking elected office. And there was significant legal arguing about the last one, to the point where opt-outs and strict limitations were added.
From a quick search it looks like India, Nigeria, Singapore, and the Philippines do as well.
Other countries may have pledges of some sort for special occasions or for new citizens. But having a flag in every classroom that children chant to each morning is not normal.
Look up why the pledge was incorporated in the first place. It was a scheme to sell small American flags and the pledge was made up to go with the flags. Once it was implemented in the classroom - profits were staggering. There was a SCOTUS ruling years ago that the pledge does NOT have to be done in the classroom, but most still do. I do not partake in my classroom and do not tell kids that have to. I do however tell the kids to be respectfully quiet while others do (if they wish).
I appreciate that you don’t tell kids that they have to participate, but honestly, even telling the others to be “respectfully quiet” seems a bit odd to me.
A democratic state is something you pledge allegiance to by actively participating, by making use of your democratic rights and by putting energy into building and shaping the system we all live in. That’s what democracy is meant to be, a system of all people working together and valuing the needs and opinions of others, working out the best solutions for everyone through discourse. It’s not a religion or a god that you pray to in silence, that’s a bit absurd, isn’t it?
“And valuing the needs and opinions of others” isn’t that exactly what I am doing by asking my students to respect that others can say the pledge if they want to? As much as I feel I don’t have a right to tell a kid to say the pledge - I would be a hypocrite if I told kids they couldn’t.
Yeah, I get that, and I think this is somehow a cultural difference. I didn’t mean to tell you that’s not what you’re supposed to do, sorry if it came across like that. I just thought it was interesting that to me, the whole idea of saying the pledge seems so strange, it reminds me of saying a prayer, and that somehow doesn’t match my understanding of a democratic system. I’m from Germany, by the way. We grow up with a very different relationship to our state compared to the US. I think it changed a bit in recent years (and I’m a bit undecided whether that’s a good thing or not), but when I was a kid, basically only nationalists and neonazis waved the German flag (that changed with the soccer worldcup in Germany in 2006). My school curriculum was filled with the crimes of the Third Reich, and I think what I took away from that was to never just worship or even trust a state or government just because it’s you own, because it may actually be or turn evil. And that it’s your responsibility as a citizen to not let that happen. Of course I do feel connected to my country and my culture, but I’m just very unfamiliar with the kind of connection that (many) Americans seem to have with their country. Again, I’m not trying to say it’s wrong per se, but to feel such an emotional connection to a democratic state that is meant to be shaped by the people for the people does feel feel a bit off to me, in the sense maybe that I see a risk of it leading people in a wrong direction. I don’t know. I hope that makes it a bit more understandable. I’d actually like to hear your opinion on that. Is my point of view understandable for you, or does it seem just as strange to you?
I understand completely. I personally do not say the pledge because I know where it comes from. I believe that this country is supposed to be a beacon of democracy. A government by the people for the people. I realized in my mid 40s that there are some people who still think that the POTUS is supposed to be like a king. That’s the opposite of what I learned in school (I am from New York State) and it does have me worried. I hope that we can move back that way because I agree the people are what makes a democratic type of government stronger. Our elected officials are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I fear that a great deal of them are working for corporate greed however. I teach the Holocaust in my classroom and I also teach about fascism. I look to Germany now with hope that people can survive a government that does wrong by them. In saying all of this - I am proud of the ideals that this country (and it’s flag) stand for, but in fear of being a hypocrite - I realize that one of the standards that the flag symbolizes is freedom. Freedom to say the pledge or not based on your own personal feelings and thoughts about what that flag means to you. I hope the kids are feeling proud of those ideals and not feeling nationalistic, but I need to teach them how to think and not to think like me, but to think for themselves. Peace fellow freedom chaser. I hope history keeps us allies.
I mean, it’s just fireworks. The US does a lot more creepy jingoistic things than fireworks. How many other nations celebrate things by scaring all the local pets? It can’t be that uncommon…
Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people’s accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.
I don’t know, it’s kind of like how people like to support their local football team. I think tribalism is somewhat ingrained in our brains. I can’t say it’s entirely logical, but it seems kind of baked-in to people at some level, like a leftover from pre-history.
Patriotism is very cool. Nationalism isn’t, which has mostly subverted the term patriot. A patriot stands up when their nation is doing something wrong. They don’t blindly believe they’re the best, they recognize that there’s things they can improve. They fight to make their country better, not to make others worse.
That’d be great if it didn’t disagree with all available evidence. For all of history patriots have been either cannon fodder or abusive tyrants. On a long enough trajectory, almost inevitably nationalists and eventually imperialists.
One could argue that, much like some flavors of political utopia, internationalism has the advantage of never having been implemented in any practical sense, so they have less of a challenge proving their positive impact, but I’ll take it anyway.
Regardless, I find that “making their country better” should be a distant second to “making the world better”, and perhaps a close third behind “making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better”.
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist. I believe in well structured, effective democratic governments. Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don’t have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It’s all administrative stuff as far as I’m concerned.
Regardless, I find that “making their country better” should be a distant second to “making the world better”, and perhaps a close third behind “making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better”.
I find this statement odd. So you think it’s best to start local, right? OK, so next from your immediate community, you should expand out, eventually to country, then to world, right? Isn’t that the logical progression. From more influence to less? Why is your priority jumping all over?
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist.
Funnily enough, I am an Anarchist. I don’t know if I’d call myself a globalist, but probably. I also believe in well structured democratic governments. Those aren’t at odds with each other.
Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don’t have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It’s all administrative stuff as far as I’m concerned.
I think we’re in agreement. This isn’t counter to what I said. I’d say it’s in unison with it. People should work to improve their governments in any way they can. They should try to reshape it to better represent them. That’s what a patriot would do, not just settle for the status quo and assume they’re the best possible version there can be.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that’s what the word means.
I get it, particularly in countries where the nation state has overlapped more or less perfectly for a long time it’s hard to shed the emotional attachment, but there’s no need for it.
See, the reason I go from small to international is precisely that the nation state takes care of itself. The world has agreed that it’s the natural resting place of sovereignty and every other scale of governance or administration os derived from it. I don’t like that much. I don’t resent it, but I also don’t give it immediate precedence over any other scale of government.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I’m not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration. If anything, it’s the level where the most people decide to infringe on each other’s business just because they feel they have a right to ownership over that national identity. I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that’s what the word means.
The land (and people), but not necessarily the state.
(The term state ahead is really annoying.)
Maybe part of it comes from being in the US, where we have a weird form of double governance of the “state” and “federal” governments. Which state are we loyal too, because they’re both ours? It makes things more malleable. The states could agree to form a totally new federal government if they wanted to.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I’m not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration.
There are multiple definitions of country. Some don’t care about the state that defines the borders. Your country is the land where you were born, not the state necessarily. One example that comes to mind in the US, which spans multiple states, is “Appalachia.” Appalachian people are a broad culture group who live in the Appalachian mountain region, and are distinct from the states they reside, and the larger US obviously. They are countrymen of each other.
I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
No, the problem is some other people have changed the term to mean nationalist. For example, in the US, people were called patriots for fighting for the people in the colonies against the state that controlled them (Britain). They didn’t approve of the state and wanted to improve it, so they fought to change it and left the former state that was controlling them. Patriotism doesn’t have to be blind support of a state, and I’d argue that isn’t patriotism, because you aren’t defending it from bad actors/actions.
The etymology of the term is certainly much older than the nation-state, but also entirely disconnected from modern meanings (or ironic/facetious, which I do appreciate). There is just no original, clean, virtuous instance of “patriot” dislodged from the nationalist undertones. It simply has never existed.
The mistake you’re making is assuming that US revolutionaries weren’t nationalists or were praiseworthy or fundamentally different than British colonists. We’re going to disagree on that one. I mean, never mind that they didn’t invent the term or that their whitewashing of it was self-serving. Even if your timeline of events was true, I despise their patriotism as much as anybody else’s. US revolutionaries weren’t some ideal version of a patriot, they were nationalist independentists who happened to borrow some French revolutionary ideas about the liberal democratic state-nation organization slightly earlier than their previous administration did (and perhaps due to the first draft nature of the thing, slightly worse, too).
I won’t judge them by modern standards, but I also absolutely, entirely refuse to sacralize them or idealize them. They were what they were, and they are absolutely not the thing that’s going to give patriotism a good name.
You’re putting words in my mouth saying that I said American revolutionaries were great people. I never said such a thing, nor would I. Stop reading more into what I said than I actually said please.
They were people willing to lay their lives down for something they thought was worth fighting for. Not out of some ignorance that the status quo is the best option, but because they wanted to make changes to improve things for their community (and their self too, sure). That’s what patriotism is.
I’d argue that it’s necessarily not pristine. You have to be willing to get dirty. You don’t win a war with honor. You win it by killing other people until the other side isn’t fighting anymore. The same is true for any fight (not the killing necessarily, but being willing to do what needs to be done).
I just brought them up as an example of patriotism though. I’m not saying they’re a perfect example, just an example. This isn’t about the US, like you’re making it to be. You’re not arguing against the point. Your entire comment can be boiled down to “American revolutionaries are bad” but it doesn’t say really anything about patriotism.
Anyway, my point is, don’t let nationalists take the term. Maybe you don’t, but most people have positive opinions if the term. It’s easier and more useful to take the term back, because it isn’t necessarily a nationalist term. There are plenty of leftist patriots throughout history and the world. The right is good at using language as a weapon. We should be too, and we shouldn’t back off every time they try to use it.
Patriotism can be cool, there are (I hope) many things about your nation, it’s achievements and communities that you might be proud of.
Nationalism however, not so much. They’re closely related (and bad people will try to sneak Nationalism under the radar as Patriotism) but are very different things.
I don’t know that I agree with this.
Perhaps coming from a place where the notion of “country” and “nation” don’t overlap one to one makes it easier to see. I wouldn’t even be able to tell you what “my nation” even is, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I respect and take pride in culture in all its diversity and complexity, in democracy and in the general sense of human decency. Screw all the so-called nations trying to get me to vouch for them as a political unit, though. Political organization is for buiding roads and hospitals, not for pride.
Independence day celebrations are not unique to America.
In fact, the best ones are about independence from the US
Which ones are those?
Hmm let me see. True former colonies include Cuba, the Philippines and Liberia. The Panama Canal Zone. Hawaii was unceremoniously annexed, as were Guam and Puerto Rico. And a host of smaller islands.
In a broader sense, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are also very happy they’re once again independent from the US.
In an even broader sense, most US allies are working for independence from the unreliable US as we speak.
I was asking which countries have independence days that celebrate independence from the US.
The Philippines celebrates their independence from Spain.
Vietnam celebrates their independence from France.
I won’t bother going on, but nice try though.
Hey you weren’t supposed to know that!
We have one of those, and it’d be creepy even if historically it wasn’t debatable that the event itself was for the better.
Fair enough, I just disagree. Gaining independence seems to me like a positive thing worth celebrating. I’m happy whenever I see an ex-colony celebrating their day.
Not saying we Americans don’t take it a little far, but hey, it’s the one day where you can be patriotic without that creepy vibe.
America fought for independence from Britain because the wealth of the nation was being sucked away and spent for the whims of a handful of wealthy people, and because the people were powerless to chose who the government was. If you factor in the insane number of insanely Gerrymandered districts and significant quantities of votes going through Musk’s servers with no external scrutiny, a broken electoral college and a supreme court intent on deleting the constitution starting with section 3 of the 14th amendment (and now moving on to the rest of it), removing religious freedom, I see everything that the founding fathers fought for and everything that the civil war was fought for being stamped on by one deluded racist moron and his crazy sycophants and enablers. It was never really freedom from slavery anyway when you have such vast numbers of black men working for no wage in profiteering private prisons for decades just for smoking some pot or stealing some groceries while rich men who do drugs or steal tens of thousands get a slap on the wrist.
Yeah, well, that depends on who gained independence from whom and whether you think you’re independent now. Also on whether you’d be indepedendent from any guys who’d like to be independent from the now guys if they were to be independent.
See, political independence for a group requires that you align with the idea the group has of itself. I don’t know that I have that overlap with any particular political delineation, so I may need an organization a touch more nuanced than an independent, sovereign nation-state.
Also, gonna need some citation on the lack of creepy vibe, as mentioned above.
How many are on July 4?
I screencapped this many moons ago on Reddit, I feel that it’s apropos
The USA started cracking at the foundations when McCarthyism began, demonizing an ideology that was ultimately about sharing resources. You can draw a straight line between the Red Scare and the anti-socialism proudly shouted by modern Republicans and the MAGA movement today.
For anyone who identifies as conservative, this rabid vilification of socialism has rotted away at even the idea that the government should exist to service the people, let alone advocating for it. So instead they advocate for tearing it all apart and hold firm to the ‘rugged individialism’, “the Free Market © will provide” nonsense that has never worked as far back in history as we can peer.
Its so toxic, and it serves only the most wealthy. It’s gone so far and for so long now that I don’t see the lessons being learnt and course correcting with words alone.
It’s rooted in all that “American Exceptionalism” propaganda crap, for sure.
I’m excited, it’s British Thanksgiving!
Britains, thanks for giving up.
- The founding immigrants
My friends and I use it as an excuse to have a get together. None of us use it to celebrate the United States or its independence.
i’m also staying home. if someone “how dare you!”'s you, tell them you like celebrating not-fascist countries.
personally, i think i’ll adopt and celebrate mexico’s holidays
I was hoping everyone would turn out for another No Kings event but I guess too many people complained.
If we can’t be proud of the mess we’re in now, maybe we can be proud of the people who speak up, who try to create change. Maybe we can hark back to our origins tearing down oppressive political and corporate systems. Maybe we can hold up the mythical ideas that used to unite us and fight to make them true. It’s our duty as patriotic citizens to set our country on the right path toward one we can be proud of.
WELL SAID!
