• Jin@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    Algorithm “okay kids remember, America bad and China number 1”

  • PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca
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    6 months ago

    What does “on tiktok” mean?

    Unsupervised with their own accounts? I feel like that’s difficult to believe. Watching a few tiktoks before dinner with their parents? That doesn’t really strike me as a problem.

    While I don’t entirely disagree with the author, I feel like this is a far too superficial look at what is a larger societal problem: young people have checked out.

    He makes the argument that mental health is in decline, and I’m not sure if that’s true or we’ve just removed the stigma from therapy… But of more concern to me is that young people just DGAF, and I think that’s because older generations have left nothing for younger generations to inherit, besides ruin. Kids 5-7 aren’t gonna understand that, but they’re gonna pick up the vibes from their parents.

    • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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      6 months ago

      I don’t think its difficult to imagine 30% of 5 to 7s with their own phones on tiktok nearly all the time.

      Raising kids is hard, especially when youre poor and stressed out or tired all the time, its waaay easier to just get them a phone.

      The number of people I’ve met in the last couple of years? Yeah, I live amongst the poors, the abusive parents and single moms and drunk/drug addicted dads… all their kids either have their own phones or the family has one for all the kids, who basically fight over it and get smacked by a parent or older sibling when theyre being too rowdy.

      A few weeks ago I was walking, puffing on a nicotine vape. A school bus pulls up and drops off what could not have been older than 2nd graders, who began hounding me: Lemme hit that wax bro, Share your wax!

      These are those 5 to 7s that are on TikTok, or close to it. I didnt even realize what Wax was at first, literally had to scurry home and lookup that wax is now the term for basically dab pens.

      So yeah, theres huge segments of the population where 7 year olds want a highly concentrated dose of MJ from a literal random person theyve never seen before.

      Devo: It’s a beautiful world we live in… for you, but not for me.

      • PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca
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        6 months ago

        I mean, that’s kind of my point - in situations like that, it seems like using Tiktok is small potatoes compared to the more significant issues that’d cause problem behavior. The Tiktok consumption is just another symptom, and if it wasn’t tiktok it’d be some other escape mechanism.

        To me, the article seems lazy, complaining about a superficial problem without spending effort to even consider or mention underlying root causes that could give rise to it and must be solved first.

        And to be clear I’m not blaming the parents, they’re not the “root cause” I’m talking about. They’re victims too, in large part. They and their kids are stuck in a harmful cycle, and people with the ability to break that cycle are unwilling to do so.

        • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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          6 months ago

          You explicitly said you couldnt imagine 30% of 5-7 year olds having essentially unfettered access to TikTok, and you said the TikTok problem is a symptom of general mental health decline in youths.

          You did not say your point was that 30% of 5-7s are using TikTok habitually, you expressed incredulity to this, to which I responded.

          Anyway, you want a root cause?

          Poverty, drug addiction, poor parenting.

          Yeah, I am going to blame the parents, at least partially.

          Oh you have kids and you are not able to actually raise them, hand them off to TikTok instead? You shouldn’t have had kids you can’t actually raise.

          Obviously, this would happen a lot less if maybe we redistributed some wealth from the top to the bottom, actually had an economy and society that allowed for all people to live well.

          Sure the article is superficial in the sense it isnt exploring root causes, but it doesnt really purport to try. That would probably end up being a completely different and much more complex piece of writing.

          Further, this is honest-broker, a website for basically well to do yuppies who were born into connections and managed to maintain the socio economic strata they were born into, where they fret about how the poors are poor because theyre stupid, and minutiae about their investments.

          What did you expect?

          • PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca
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            6 months ago

            Yeah, I know I shouldn’t expect much from a site like that, but since it’s shared here I felt like I should shine a little light on the deeper issues.

            This kind of superficial “journalism” rage-baiting boomers for clicks is really frustrating to me. Shit like this is brain-rot at least as bad as Tiktok is. It has always existed, but the extent to which it has replaced actual analysis and investigation is depressing.

            Yes, the parents are partially at fault, of course. But as you indicated, there are significant societal pressures that force families into dynamics like this and it’s not realistic to expect an overwhelming majority to be able to resist it, alone. And since we’re not about to engage in class-based eugenics, it’s up to society to give them a serviceable ladder to climb out of their situation.

            So, TLDR; I wanted to shine a light on deeper issues, so that people don’t think that this is solely a moral failing of parents, and that they DO understand that we have a collective responsibility to help families.

  • tal@lemmy.today
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    6 months ago

    My brief forays into both TikTok and YouTube Shorts have left me profoundly unimpressed with the short-form video.

      • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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        6 months ago

        Literally proven to ruin attention span in children and essentially cause ADHD, can also easily cause depression by constantly seeing (usually) fake people flaunting their (usually) fake life and wealth.

        Not to mention the proliferation of insane conspiracy theories, absolute nonsense and usually harmful ‘advice’ of one kind or another, ‘being rich is the only thing that matters so here is a scam to show you how!’ of all kinds of flavors…

        Brain rot.

            • SuckMyWang@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              And saying Hamas is garbage isn’t defending genocide as much as people seem to want it to be for some weird reason

              • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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                6 months ago

                Shhh, its now time for Hasan to interview another violent religious fundamentalist to remind us that Houthis are good actually and wanton piracy is the same thing as being a good Tankie.

                Don’t mention that the Houthis have actually targeted Chinese vessels, and that China also has naval forces on escort and anti piracy operations faaaar from their territorial waters.

                Modern American leftism has to a great extent devolved into ‘any and all of America’s enemies are good actually and can do no wrong’. Except Russia. Because MAGA likes Russia, so Russia bad.

                Bleck.

        • thehatfox@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          can also easily cause depression by constantly seeing (usually) fake people flaunting their (usually) fake life and wealth

          That’s a problem with many social media platforms and the “influencer” culture they host. Instagram has been particularly criticised for this.

          These heavily curated content posted on these platforms does not reflect the warts and all reality of real life. People who get too engrossed in it can quickly start to feel their lives are inadequate.

          I’m not sure what the solution is for this, other than trying to better regulate the algorithms used by these platforms.

          • Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works
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            6 months ago

            Coming to lemmy has made me have more negative views of how much I use and should be using Linux.

            I only have it on one device atm…

          • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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            6 months ago

            Well, better regulation of algorithms is not a thing that is going to happen.

            Assuming you could actually specify this kind of content… which you probably can with some degree from the standpoint of the engineers behind the things… theres basically no way to ban or limit this kind of content in a law.

            1: Giant Freedom of Speech based opposition. To some extent, yeah if you penalize it, well you are limiting free speech and artistic expression, is what will be claimed.

            2: Without literally having access to the way the algorithm works, it’d be a massive tome of a law to try to pass. And also software changes, so … you can probably rewrite your way around a specific way to limit this kind of content.

            I don’t know. Maybe you could pass a law that mandates if your platform has x many users or daily views, you must provide to the user far, far more in depth means to manage their own content they are thrown up.

            Or perhaps you could have some kind of FAA type entity created, which is supposed to be deeply involved in the behind the scenes aspects of basically standard operation of the social media industry, as the FAA is with aircraft manufacture/airspace/airports.

            Of course the counter point to that is well just look at the FAA and Boeing ot even SpaceX. Regulatory capture is a thing, and with both Boeing and SpaceX it seems like the FAA (and in SpaceX’s case the EPA) either don’t really care to do their jobs, or actual enforcement mechanisms are just too slow or cumbersome.

        • far_university1990@feddit.de
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          6 months ago

          Literally proven to ruin attention span in children and essentially cause ADHD

          Please link source, interested in reading.

          • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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            6 months ago

            So, perhaps ‘essentially cause ADHD’ is a bit strong, but there are absolutely studies that show that exposure to / addiction to short form video content impair focus, cause/exacerbate attention deficits, cause/exacerbate difficulty maintaining attention, as well as impair the ability to study and perform academically, worsen overall mental health etc.

            Oh, and short form video content is also found to be addictive as well.

            https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0144929X.2022.2151512

            https://www.cell.com/heliyon/fulltext/S2405-8440(24)06377-1

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9127725/

            In summary, brain rot.

            Theres also studies which show, hilariously, that a good amount of mental health ‘advice’ on such short form content platforms is garbage.

            This one studies the top posts on ADHD and finds half of them to be misleading.

            https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/07067437221082854

            And to round it out, heres a study on negative body image perception and self objectification amongst girls/women by short form content:

            https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1740144523000876?via%3Dihub

            In fairness, this study does find that negative self perception and self objectification increase with viewing either short or long form video content or images featuring ‘ideal’ women, which makes sense, as this sort of thing has been long studied before ‘social media’ even existed (TV, Magazines, Movies, etc).

            So, while objectification and body image problems from media exposure are not new, the proliferation and exposure amount are increased dramatically in the age of widespread social media.

            I would be willing to bet that had a similar study as this one been done on boys/men it would show similar results.

          • Plopp@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            Having recently been diagnosed with ADHD I’ve taken part in several classes on ADHD to learn more about it. And the consensus is that no external factors like that cause ADHD. However, I’m sure this topic of algorithm driven addictive short form videos for a very young audience is being studied more now than ever so who knows what the consensus on that will be in the future. Causing ADHD or not, I don’t think it’s healthy either way.

            • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              That doesn’t sound right to me. ADHD is a constellation of shared symptoms, grouped together and given a name for insurance and diagnostic purposes and because the treatment overlaps. The cause of those symptoms are obviously multifactorial, heavily correlated with both genetics and childhood stress. Bad news if your mom or dad didn’t ever stfu when you were a baby, hardwired you to be uncomfortable without constant external stimulation and validation.

              Schools at least where I live do a much better job of teaching kids to manage their emotions. And I hope parents of young children are doing a better job as well, seems like it to me, but I’m in a well off rural bubble.

              I imagine TikTok sets back any progress and I’m glad it’s banned. TikTok brain is a real thing. Human beings are meant to be able to focus intensely in one purposeful thing for several hours at a time and with practice anyone can learn to be highly productive and attentive if they can find a time and place to be free from distractions, and anyone can have a super memory if they set aside time and purposefully train their memory; memory is a product of focus.

            • ayaya@lemdro.id
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              6 months ago

              Yeah it can certainly cause problems, it’s just not ADHD.

              ADHD doesn’t even really mean short attention spans, it’s more of the inability to willingly direct attention. It’s the same way people incorrectly use “OCD” to mean liking things clean and/or orderly.

              I have ADHD and I’ve had times where I’ve done the same thing for 14 hours straight (even forgetting to eat) when my brain decides it wants to latch onto that thing. You just need to be sufficiently stimulated, hence why stimulants can work as a treatment.

              • conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works
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                6 months ago

                ADHD doesn’t even really mean short attention spans, it’s more of the inability to willingly direct attention. It’s the same way people incorrectly use “OCD” to mean liking things clean and/or orderly.

                Both of these are the product of needing constant stimulation. I understand your point that hyper-focus is also part of ADD/ADHD, and I certainly am not going to make claims about how your brain is changing structurally without evidence behind it.


                So this is mere conjecture for a mechanism:

                What these apps (with short format video being the worst) do is train your brain to expect a constant stream of dopamine hits. Novelty (presumably even trash novelty like TikTok) triggers dopamine, your brain becomes dependent on that steady stream of dopamine fix, and your body starts craving it once you remove that pattern of behavior.

                This is very similar to ADHD, which is also strongly connected to problems with how dopamine is regulated. It’s not as simple as just not enough dopamine or poor uptake or whatever, but it’s reasonably clear that it plays a role.

                So both cases are a result of poor dopamine regulation causing a need for stimulation that has a negative impact on ability to function from day to day. They’re probably at minimum relatively similar.

                • 【J】【u】【s】【t】【Z】@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  This is my understanding of it all as well. Like, if your parents never stfu as a kid or you never had a chance to really be alone and quiet and safe as a baby, your brain, your very concept of self, is hardwired for constant stimulation such that it’s uncomfortable not to have it, to the point of sitting their for 14 hours reading Wikipedia pages or whatever because it’s more stimulating that it would be to stop and wash the floors or so the laundry, or maybe just talking your fingers in class or letting your mind read every sign and bumper sticker while you’re driving. It’s also why all the most effective treatments are about emotional regulation.

    • thehatfox@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      It’s all vertical video as well. YouTube pushes Shorts fairly aggressively on the desktop website, and it’s a crappy experience.

      • Plopp@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Be glad Youtube still works on the desktop at all. A very large majority of users watch on their phones and YouTube only cares about profits.

        • Franklin@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          I already knew this but still what a terrifying prospect, I love my phone but there are some things a desktop is just better for

          • Plopp@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            Yeah I’m one of the ten people who can’t stand watching videos on my phone. I draw the line at gifs.

        • thejml@lemm.ee
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          6 months ago

          I tend to watch YouTube on my phone while traveling, waiting, relaxing and don’t feel like turning on the TV… but always in landscape orientation. I can’t stand vertical videos.

    • sp3ctr4l@lemmy.zip
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      6 months ago

      There was that brief period of time where Vine existed and had actual quality content.

      Then the short video format was shittified after everyone began doing it, and fairly rapidly devolved into mindless attention seeking nonsense / micro personal update vlog… or worse.

      • Grandwolf319@sh.itjust.works
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        6 months ago

        I think long videos are expensive.

        Social media companies like engagement. So 3 20s videos would give you more data from the user than 1 60s video.

      • dmtalon@infosec.pub
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        6 months ago

        Well humans are making them. Vine and other early adopter places (Lemmy) are nice until the “masses” find it.

        It’s awful, but people eat it up. Add in profit margins and companies jump on smelling that sweet sweet profit.

        Tik Tok is blocked in my house but unfortunately reels/yt shorts have no easy way to block without affecting the rest of the service.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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          6 months ago

          I doubt it, parents will just move them to YouTube, Instagram, or some other platform. The TikTok ban is intended to limit misinformation by the CCP, and that doesn’t really matter for this age of kids.

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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              6 months ago

              The more important thing to me is building habits. I care less about how much they’re watching vs how they’re spending their time generally.

              We have a rule where our kids need to read to be able to watch/play games, and we cap at 2hr/day. If they read 1hr, they can watch/play for 30min. My kids seem to have a pretty good mix of reading, watching/playing, and playing outside w/ friends, so I think it works.

              • GladiusB@lemmy.world
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                6 months ago

                Yea. We do something similar. It’s an electronic allowance. If you use it it’s done for the day. I change it for rainy days and vacations if we are traveling in the car or whatever. But it’s easy to set up with Google family. And then you can see what they are doing. Not to be snoopy. Just to teach them the right way to protect themselves online. I don’t want them to turn 18 and be completely lost.

                • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
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                  6 months ago

                  I give my kids 30 min “free” on Saturdays, which gets doubled if they spend it in a game with a sibling. For trips, I make my kids all do the same thing, so either watch the same show, listen to the same audiobook, etc.

                  I personally don’t digitally track what my kids do at all, I instead rely on trust and keeping devices in a public space. I tell them what’s acceptable, and occasionally hang out with them while they’re doing whatever. As they follow the rules, I give them more autonomy (e.g. my oldest may get their own PC soon-ish), but if they break the rules, they lose access. The only parental controls I use is for my 4yo, because she keeps getting into my Steam Deck and Switch w/o asking, but my other kids know the passcode on the Switch (not my Steam Deck, that’s mine).

                  It’s a bit bumpy, but I’m hopeful that having rules but no actual walls teaches them to learn to self-regulate and will help them in the long-run. It worked for me as a kid.

      • jaschen@lemm.ee
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        6 months ago

        Wait, is there another psyops software the CCP has deployed in the US?

        • BlueJayOakerson@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          Probably plenty. Tik tok is just the biggest owned by a foreign government that also is showing pretty immediate extreme negative effects on children’s attention spans and learning capabilities.

          But people are still gonna whine because they’re 25 year olds who need to watch 80 videos of unboxing shoes in 4 minutes . That’s really the only pro tik tok argument there is.

          • ChexMax@lemmy.world
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            6 months ago

            I’m guessing you’ve never been on TikTok. It’s a pretty good news source and information disseminator. Your algorithm feeds you what you pick so if you linger on posts from physical therapists and psychologists about child development, that’s what you learn about. If you linger on political posts highlighting our local and federal government’s corruption, you get that.

            I’m all for banning it (and all social media) for children, but if you think TikTok is all trash TV, you’ve been successfully propagandized.

            • BlueJayOakerson@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              Wtf? You see nothing wrong with your first two sentences??? “It’s great at disseminating information. The Chinese government learns how I think then starts to show me propaganda they want that will align with my opinions so they can drive how I think and what I learn in the future”

              That’s fucking wild that you’re saying all of this is a positive thing.

          • neo (he/him)@lemmy.comfysnug.space
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            6 months ago

            It sets a pretty chilling precedent that non-American competition can be forced to sell to Americans for (insert arbitrary reason here).

            I am in favor of TikTok at least becoming restricted to adults only if not outright banned, just warning about the consequences of doing it this way.

            • BlueJayOakerson@lemmy.world
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              6 months ago

              It really doesn’t set a bad precedent forcing a foreign adversary to have less control over the US population. We should really force the sale of a lot of Chinese properties in the US as well. A foreign government should not have so much control over rental and housing prices in the US.

              Why are you pro foreign adversary controlling the daily lives of Americans? It’s a very odd stance to take and openly say unless you’re not American obviously.

            • jaschen@lemm.ee
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              6 months ago

              It’s owned by the CCP who is currently trying to undermine our election. It tried to do it in Taiwan where I currently live.

              • exanime@lemmy.today
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                6 months ago

                It’s owned by the CCP who is currently trying to undermine our election

                Not that this may not be true, but the USA undermines it’s own foundation of democracy

                • jaschen@lemm.ee
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                  6 months ago

                  While the US government is not perfect, it still is OUR own government. The CCP is a literal adversary.

                • BlueJayOakerson@lemmy.world
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                  6 months ago

                  Wtf kind of response is that? “The Chinese government should get a say in our government because our government isn’t perfect.”

                  Nothing but Chinese shills or boys here. It’s wild anyone is stupid enough to say this

      • jaschen@lemm.ee
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        6 months ago

        It’s not in American businesses best interest overthrow a government. Can’t say the same for the CCP tho. Fuck the CCP.

          • jaschen@lemm.ee
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            6 months ago

            Wow, that is literally 1 example of an obscure time in the early 19th century.

            A mass majority of an American company has zero interest to hurt the community it is based in. The stability of a government and the strength of it’s community determines if people would buy/use a product. It also supplies a competent workforce and a network of security that helps a company prosper.

    • andros_rex@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      I use TikTok routinely. I actually spend time on Chinese parts of TikTok, because I know a little Chinese. I’ve seen content that the CCP would be very much opposed to - including discussions of the Tank Man from Tiananmen Square and homosexuality in Chinese history.

      TikTok has censorship certainly, but it’s more targeted towards the Gaza conflict.

      • jaschen@lemm.ee
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        6 months ago

        I use TikTok routinely.

        Your experience is different from other experience. That’s the main issue. They are and can target specific people in specific groups and in specific regions. You seeing this content just means you’re not important enough for them to target.

        • andros_rex@lemmy.world
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          6 months ago

          As can/do Facebook and every other social media platform. But I find it hard to take this idea that TikTok is an arm of the CCP seriously when I routinely discuss Ughyur Muslims and Tiananmen square with folks, and see depictions of Chairman Mao as Pooh Bear.

          The more shady shit is the shop and how every third video is an unlabeled ad. TikTok wants to make money first and foremost. I don’t think TikTok is some force for good in the world, but what they are doing is no different from what Meta and Google are doing.

          • jaschen@lemm.ee
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            6 months ago

            Tiktok has one of the worse/non existent monetization programs. Its clearly not important to them how bad it is.

            My extended family in Taiwan would routinely see fake news on Tiktok during the Taiwan elections.

            That’s the thing. You don’t know. Nobody knows except the CCP. That’s the problem.

            • pop@lemmy.ml
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              6 months ago

              That’s the thing. You don’t know. Nobody knows except the CCP. That’s the problem.

              But you do about every other social media platform?

              Fake news is not exclusive to a single platform. Teach your family about reputable news sources and stop trying to shoehorn US propaganda down everyone’s throats like it makes you look smart. Tiktok learned everything it does by the likes of facebook, Google and Twitter.

              Why do you think US social media is everywhere all over the world with near instant or sometimes even get higher bandwidth preference in some countries? If you don’t think the US government has nothing to do with the level of complexities that entails dealing with local governments/infrastructure and planning, then I guess “ignorance is a bliss”, and I hope the US government will bring you peace and much freedumb. Don’t complain when they come in blasting tho.

              • jaschen@lemm.ee
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                6 months ago

                It’s one thing to have fake news that is uncontrolled. It’s another thing when a literal adversary uses fake news as a tool to create discourse.

                A social media company has one thing in mind. Profits. Even if it means that a byproduct of profits is discourse. But TikTok sole purpose is discourse. They literally don’t care about profits.

  • profdc9@lemmy.world
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    6 months ago

    You would think that with all those kids watching, Xi would lean into the whole Winnie the Pooh resemblance.

  • Hal-5700X@sh.itjust.works
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    6 months ago

    The next generation is so fucked. Wait…they be the ones who take care of me in the old person home. I’m fucked as will.

    • meliaesc@lemmynsfw.com
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      6 months ago

      With YouTube kids, and the popularity of channels like cocomelon, I’d be surprised if it’s less than 75%…

    • UsernameIsTooLon@lemmy.world
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      6 months ago

      Nah, social media is like a hydra. Another “TikTok” will just be born from the ban.

      Nothing is changing drastically until we have better data protection laws.

      • anon987@lemmy.world
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        6 months ago

        Ban all Chinese/Russian social media companies. GG EZ.

        Edit: sorry my bad, I didn’t realize you were one of the people that thinks all social media is the same.

        You realize that tik toks sole purpose is to brainwash western youth right? This is propaganda 101.