What is the difference between cellular data being used on my phone and cellular data being used on my notebook? Data is data.
Unlimited with a limit
It’s because at&t also sells home Internet. If you have unlimited hotspot, then you wouldn’t want that sweet sweet DSL or whatever shit Internet ATT sells
Do they actually slow it down? I have 8GB of data and many months I use a lot more than that and they send me some messages that they will slow it with some links to purchase more data but it never happens, or at least not in a noticeable way
How can they tell if you are tethering?
If you’re using the built-in unmodified hotspot on pretty much all phones these days, mobile data for the hotspot goes through a different apn. Your phone requests data on one channel, while hotspot data goes through another.
Not sure if it’s still the case today, but back then cellular ISPs could tell you are tethering by looking at the TTL (time to live) value of your packets.
Basically, a packet starts with a TTL of 64 usually. After one hop (i.e. from your phone to the ISP’s devices) the TTL is decremented, becoming 63.
What happens when the ISP receives a packet with a TTL value of 62 instead? It realizes that your packet must have gone through an additional hop, for example when it hopped from your laptop onto your phone, hence the data must be tethered.
That was a good read, thanks
This also explains why VPN is a possible workaround to this issue.
Your VPN will encapsulate any packets that your phone will send out inside a new packet (its contents encrypted), and this new packet is the one actually being sent out to the internet. What TTL does this new packet have? You guessed it, 64. From the ISP’s perspective, this packet is no different than any other packets sent directly from your phone.
BUT, not all phones will pass tethered packets to the VPN client – they directly send those out to the internet. Mine does this! In this case, TTL-based tracking will still work. And some phones seem to have other methods to inform the ISP that the data is tethered, in which case the VPN workaround may possibly fail.
You can also just increase your laptop’s initial TTL by one and then they can’t tell.
How do you do this?
On MacOS this will do it:
printf 'net.inet.ip.ttl=65\nnet.inet6.ip6.hlim=65\n' | sudo tee /etc/sysctl.confCan’t personally speak for other OSes at present. Here’s a SO post about Ubuntu: https://askubuntu.com/a/670276
That was a good read, thank you
They must be sniffing traffic
Visible has an unlimited hotspot
Get EasyTether for your phone ($10) and you can USB tether to any PC that has the companion app installed (free).
Even a Raspberry Pi works. I have a Pi configured to broadcast as a WiFi AP, so I just plug in my phone via USB and I have instant WiFi for all of my devices. Takes a fair amount of configuration to do that, but there are tutorials online. Much easier just plugging your phone into a laptop for internet on just that laptop.
Or maybe a laptop can act as a WiFi AP, too. I do know Windows can share internet out a free Ethernet port very easily.
I use a VPN so my wireless provider doesn’t see Windows update or Stream downloads, etc.
If you use a VPN it can also mask it too. That’s how I used to get around it before moving to Google Fi.
Same, if I have unlimited data it’s none of their business what that data is
not to be a shill, but i have xfinity mobile, and they gave me unlimited tethering. there is service degradation at some point, but i haven’t ever hit it or if i have i haven’t noticed it.
This is why we need net neutrality
That’s not what net neutrality does, and I’m disturbed by this being the number one comment.
Are you talking about net neutrality in general, or a specific campaign that used the term? Net neutrality means all bits are equal. It does not matter where a bit is coming from, where it is going to or what it is part of.
Sorry how would net neutrality do anything but make them reword the policy??
The ISP shouldn’t care what kind of traffic is going through the network and show it down by type. It should be neutral to it
Right… they can still impose data caps. They’ll just do the cap at the plan level, like most already do. OPs just on a cheap plan.
They can care about what device they’re providing internet to. Net neutrality is about where content is coming from.
They provide internet to the phone. What the phone does with it (e.g. provide a hotspot), is another story.
This has little to nothing to do with net neutrality, which refers to back end L1 and L2 network interconnections.
what are you talking about? that makes no sense
Edit: wait, you might be right. As I understand, net neutrality is for the last mile ISPs, not the L1/L2 providers. So uh… what I explained below isn’t relevant. Eh, I’ll leave it in case people wanna learn stuff.
It was a bad explanation, assuming you had knowledge of network infrastructure things, but it does make sense. I’ll explain things if you’re interested.
Net neutrality is the idea that ISPs must treat all content providers equally. Your phone is not a content provider (most likely. You could run a web server on your phone, but… no). YouTube, Netflix, Facebook, TikTok, and your weird uncle’s WordPress site are content providers. Without net neutrality, ISPs can say, “Hey YouTube, people request a ton of traffic from you on our network. Pay up or we’ll slow down people’s connections to you.” The “neutrality” part means that ISPs must be neutral towards content providers, not discriminating against them for being high demand by consumers.
For the L1 and L2 part, that’s the networking infrastructure. The connection to your home is just tiny cables. I don’t recall how many layers there are, but it’s just “last mile” infrastructure. The network infrastructure between regions of the country or across the ocean are giant, giant cables managed by internet service providers you’ve never heard of. They’re the kind of providers that connect AT&T to Comcast. These are considered L1 or L2 providers. The data centers of giant companies, like Google for YouTube’s case, often pay these L1 or L2 providers to plug directly into their data centers. Why? Those providers are using the biggest, fastest cables to ferry bits and bytes across the planet. You might be pulling gigs from YouTube, but YouTube is putting out… shit, I don’t even know. Is there a terabyte connection? Maybe even petabyte? That sounds crazy. I dunno, I failed Google’s interview question where they asked me to estimate how much storage does Google Drive use globally. Anyway, I hope that gives you an idea of what L1 and L2 providers are.
I’m not a network infrastructure guy, though. If someone who actually knows what they’re talking about has corrections, I’d love to learn where I’m wrong
Net neutrality is about service to last mile customers, but it is based upon interconnection agreements across the L1 and L2 level.
ISP’s pay for a connection to L1 and L2, so their users (who pay ISP’s) can access content on those networks. Websites pay for a connection to L1 and L2 so their content can be available on those networks.
ISP’s want to also charge websites for access into their networks of users, in spite of the fact their users already pay them for access to the website content. If some websites don’t pay, then ISP’s will provide a lower service to their users for those websites. Net neutrality says ISP’s should not do this.
Differentiating between locally used data and hotspot data has nothing to do with this. Hotspot data is about the device the data is going to, not where the data is coming from, and typically (or at least traditionally, maybe not so anymore) a PC will use more data than a phone. A PC is more likely to have large multi-gigabyte downloads (eg games), although these days video streaming is perhaps the main bandwidth hog and is generally equal across all devices.
A home internet connection is expected to serve all devices in that home, while a mobile internet connection is expected to serve only that mobile device (excluding mobile broadband options, which serve multiple devices but are typically more expensive). The ISP’s network is designed with this in mind.
It is more reasonable for an ISP to only provide data to the phone you’re paying for than it is for them to throttle websites you already paid for. However, really both are kind of bullshit - usage limits in general are completely disproportionate to actual costs.
Net neutrality isn’t going to do a thing about this kind of stuff. In a best case scenario, you’ll end up with overall data usage limitations - no more ‘unlimited mobile data’.
ISPs meter data usage because it’s pretty much the only way they can impose some form of limitation on a finite capacity to provide such data to you and other customers - other than data rate limits (read: slower speeds). They can’t guarantee data rates in almost any setup, because ultimately, while ‘data usage’ is a bit of an artificial construct and ‘data’ is not in any way finite, the pipes that deliver the data certainly are of finite capacity. Mobile data capacity - and in fact, any wireless medium - is a shared medium, the more people try to use it simultaneously, the less pleasant it’s going to be for each individual user. Ask Starlink users in many US areas how overselling limited capacity impacts the individual user.
Mobile data usage also has different usage patterns than if you’re hotspotting your PC. You’re not going to download massive games or other bandwidth hogs to your mobile. You probably won’t be running a torrent client either. So they can give you unlimited mobile data because you’re simply not going to put as much of a strain on the infrastructure with pure on-device usage than you will with hotspotting.
This isn’t a defense of what AT&T is doing. But net neutrality isn’t going to force them to suddenly be all ethical. It’s not going to make them provision infrastructure that doesn’t fall over at the first signs of higher-than-usual load. And it certainly can’t change the physical realities of wireless data communication. In an ideal world ISPs wouldn’t be so greedy and/or beholden to greedy shareholders to be cutting corners, and instead provide sufficient infrastructure that can handle high demand.
And to those who are talking about their workarounds: you may not like it but you’ve signed a contract. That contract stipulates acceptable use, and if you’re found to be breaching the contract terms, the other party is within their rights to terminate the contract. Again, in an ideal world these contract terms would be more balanced towards the needs of the customer, but in the meantime your best recourse against unfavourable contract terms is to take your business elsewhere. And if you can’t do that, everything else is at your own risk.
If they didn’t have the bandwidth, I don’t think T-Mobile would offer home Internet and advertise it as much as they do
And more competition.
T-Mobile hasn’t done this for years. Att is just shit
I have T-Mobile. They absolutely do.
I have T-Mobile, they absolutely don’t.
Lol. They totally do. Their best plan without going arm and a leg for unlimited gives you 50GB a month before dropping to near nothing. Up to a year ago it was 40GB.
50gb is not even close to 5gb and 3g speeds are not even close to 128kbs so no, T-Mobile doesn’t do this.
T mobile has low GB plans that are far less than 40 or 50 GB and 3g is capable of over 3Mbps, so I don’t know what dumbassery you’re talking about.
Uh?
When T-Mobile moved to unlimited with the ONE plans, they gave You “unlimited” tethering at “3G speeds”, which turned out to be 0.5Mbit/s, an unusably slow speed in 2018.
The Magenta plans gave you 5GB-50GB of full-speed tethering before dropping you to “3G speeds”. The current Go5G plans are similar, with a limited amount of usable tethering data before you’re, for all practical uses, cut off.
Before the ONE plans, there technically was no hotspot usage limit, but since you had a limited amount of high-speed data, your hotspot was effectively limited to whatever your plan gave you.
All the US carriers limit hotspot usage, partly to prevent someone hooking up a computer to download 50TB of pirated movies while clogging up the bandwidth for everyone else on that tower, and (moreso) partly because they’re greedy.
3g speeds are fine, no clue what you’re talking about. I literally tether all the time and when I hit the limit it’s still completely usable, even for YouTube. And getting to that limit is well above the 5gb from ATT. Like I said, att is shit, T-Mobile doesn’t do this and hasn’t for years.
Literally every carrier on the planet limits hotspot data in some manner. This isn’t a US thing.
If it were just bandwidth issues, they’d only limit you during times of congestion.
It’s pure greed.
Nationalize the tubes
100% this
yeah they are selling “wireless home internet” hard now, can’t have people using their phone hotspot for that.
How do they know if the source of data is hotspot? I’d imagine there is a way to stop your phone grassing on you.
You have to turn that feature on.
Could you install a different OS like suggested here https://dubvee.org/comment/1855949 / by Admiral Patrick below?
Yeah, installing a new OS on a phone isn’t something you do easily like on a PC.
You have to unlock the bootloader, which requires an unlock code from the manufacturer, then you have to factory reset it, and that’s even if your phone/carrier allows it. Many don’t (which is why it’s so hard for me to replace my phone…grrr).
So yeah, installing a new OS on your phone is typically going to require quite a bit of effort and some level of commitment as well as a device that’s bootloader unlockable and supported by an alternate OS (each device and model requires a custom build).
It’s…a whole thing.
and that’s even if your phone/carrier allows it.
This is why you should buy the phone outright yourself then get a SIM only deal, rather than paying for your phone in contract.
Yeah I do, but SIM unlocked and bootloader unlockable are two different things. Sadly, not every phone (or even the same phones made for different carriers) are allowed to be bootloader unlocked; I have no idea why, but it is and sucks.
Yeah it’s definitely true, even with the same manufacturer it can be hit and miss. You gotta do your research before you buy.
I haven’t done it in a while, but it kinda depends on the phone, some were very easy to flash in the earlier days of Android.
Yeah, my old Moto Play G4 was a breeze. Wasn’t quite “Press any key to continue” but not much more difficult.
My OnePlus was a little more work, but that was mostly because of the OP website acting up and refusing to generate my bootloader unlock key. Also had to do things differently since it didn’t have an SD card to hold my install stuff like the Moto Play did.
I had one where you could literally run an app on the phone, no ADB or anything. Can’t remember what phone it was now but it might’ve actually been a Moto Droid
One one hand, that sounds extremely convenient. On the other, I shudder thinking what a malicious app could do with that 😆
Edit: Unless you’re talking about doing it through TWRP. I had to flash that over fastboot, but once installed to the recovery partition, I could boot into that and install the rest of Lineage and extra packages straight from the SD card. Updating the system was just downloading the new Lineage .zip to the SD card, booting into TWRP, and clicking install.
Maybe, but it’s not worth it just for a few days, which is all I’ll need it for. I just forked over $15 for another 10 gb.
It’s worth it for more than a few days, custom ROMs ftw.
Personally my minimum features are:
- Long press back button to force close and kill an app.
- Call recording.
All the other stuff and customisation is just tasty gravy.
$15 for 10GB?! USA phone bills are extortionate!
Yeah, it really sucks, but at least there aren’t roaming charges anymore.
Lol when I travel to the US I get 12GB roaming per month included for no extra charge.
There’s different internal network configs (APNs), and hotspot uses a different one than regular mobile data. ( or at least it used to). Those can be configured and metered separately from the carrier’s end.
LineageOS, and maybe some other custom ROMs, wouldn’t do that and would put the hotspot and mobile data on the same APN to get around that.
I’m still hoping for LineageOS on the Nord N30 but I can’t Even find a stock ROM to root it.
Can confirm, switching to Graphene solved this problem for me a long while ago.
Doesn’t unlocking the bootloader break Google Pay?
You can in theory still use Google Pay with a Magisk module called Play Integrity Fix and using a fingerprint from a different phone to pass Basic and Device integrity. I’m currently doing it on my Pixel 7 Pro.
But it has a steep learning curve and is a temporary solution that will disappear in roughly a year once Google sunsets legacy integrity methods and starts requiring Strong integrity, which can’t be faked under known methods. Google is also actively disabling fingerprints that are being spoofed, making the whole thing frustrating and even more temporary even when it works.
Just let us use our devices, sheesh.
Don’t know, wouldn’t touch that with a 10 foot pole.
What’s wrong with Google Pay?
the Google part
You can lock the bootloader again after the flashing process is done(because it will add the signing key of the new OS), but unfortunately the NFC Payments in Google Pay still won’t work because Google only allows it on ‘certified’ Android systems (aka only the preinstalled OS)
Isn’t this dependent on the ROM, like lineage shouldn’t be locked where as calyx is locked likewise for graphine os
Ugh. I was dumb and got a Samsung that was offered to me for cheap on the spot. If I had done any research I would have learned that there’s no alternative OS options. Now I’m stuck with it, because I’m poor, so I just try to avoid using it. I should keep an eye out for something used that’s compatible.
While it’s not at the same level as Graphene OS, Samsung is pretty well supported by Lineage OS. AFAIK at least in Europe Samsung phones have an unlockable bootloader, but YMMV.
Even on my unlocked, non vendor phone it seems to not recognize hotspot data as different for some reason.
Back when they just began recognizing it, they noted peculiar traffic. Desktop websites, batch downloads normally unavailable to that system. This assumes that you utilized the internal hotspot system and didn’t create a separate one. Now? Not sure whether their system is more robust but it should, theoretically, be possible to obfuscate your traffic using third party hotspot software. No clue where to look for that anymore.
I used to routinely use 100gb of data on my jailbroken sprint iPhone. Did that for almost 3 years. Never heard a peep from them. But this was forever ago.
If you used the package I think you did, that’s not unusual. Absolutely will not remember the name but there were numerous tweaks that just flipped the hotspot switch but a couple that allowed you to use a hotspot without directly using the inbuilt function. One was free and broadly used.
TTL in the packet header is 29 instead of 30
Well that’s an easy fix.
If you root your phone and install a custom rom, you can get around it and they can’t tell.
If you’re factory, it sends that hotspot info to them.
Get a custom ROM and a VPN.
Can custom ROMs hide hotspotting?
I don’t know the current state of things, it’s probably more than 10 years since I’ve bothered with rooting and custom rooms and such.
But back then I remember my phone company tried to make me pay extra for tethering and there were a few tricks using root to get around it. I think there were a few apps out there that would work on the stock room that needed root, and I think it just worked out of the box with a custom ROM.
IIRC, at that time, my carrier had disabled the tethering options in the phone settings, and to tether you had to use their pre-installed app. My memory may be fuzzy on that though.
Yes of course, it’s a software thing.
Neat
Yes, if you spend a little time on it you can slowly phase out all of the fucked up software with better alternatives. I could also help you if you have questions.
I was planning on getting a pixel with Graphene OS because that’s the only one that seems reasonable.
Good choice
Probably, but all you really need is an app called EasyTether. I wrote a big comment about it on this post.
Get Google fi if it’s available. Very consumer friendly. Actually let me rephrase that. More consumer friendly than most other cell providers. But it’s still Google.
At least all the pricing and features are straight forward and they don’t lock any features (like Hotspot) behind paywalls.
Every time the ATT sales people bug me at stores I tell them what I’m paying and that I get unlimited hotspot and they usually say “oh, you’re good.”
Add to this that Fi actually allows you to add data only SIMS at no cost.
It’s too expensive. Visible is cheaper and unlimited everything, even hot spot, and no soft data cap.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Visible/comments/efsmwg/warning_there_is_a_data_cap/
I know I know, Reddit post. But there is in fact a soft data cap. The guy who made the post was torrenting and received an email for reaching the data abuse threshold.
If you’re using FI, and you set the device your using the phone hotspot for to metered connection you’re not too terribly likely to reach the data cap on pretty much any of the unlimited fi plans. I do this for work.
Yeah, even using a hotspot internationally it’s the same price, with the same data limits.
And with data-SIMs, it’s possible to share that data with a few other devices, still at no extra cost.
Those features are often overlooked when people ask why it’s more expensive than e.g. Mint.
Yeah. I haven’t used mint, but the apps, account management and overall ease of use and transparency is legendary with Google fi. Those things are also easy to overlook. It’s just so easy and doesn’t get in my way when I want to manage something like all other carriers.
Basically they don’t want you to turn your phone into a mobile router.
Well then don’t offer unlimited data. Is it unlimited or not?
Unlimited data for your phone, not your computer.
Definitely not the way they structure it currently
Unlimited data, not unlimited speed. It didn’t say they’d cut you off, only that you’d be throttled.
(Yes it’s an asshole move but there is a difference)
Unlimited is by definition without a limit
5 GB is a limit
You have “unlimited data” so you can download all you want. You do not have “unlimited bandwidth”.
I’ve read somewhere that USB tethering bypasses this very easily.
Does it? Interesting. I’ll have to try that. I wonder why?
From what I heard is that a phone used as USB tether identifies as a modem on the computer, and then the traffic is somehow detected differently. I haven’t tested this personally though since my ISP doesn’t cap or throttle me when using hotpsots.
There used to be other ways to bypass it as well, like PDAnet, rooting, flashing custom OSes, etc.
Is easytether still a thing? That app saved my butt several times.
I’m not sure tbh, my ISP doesn’t throttle my speed or data when used as a hotspot, luckily, so I didn’t have to look into it for a long time.
