Article: https://proton.me/blog/deepseek
Calls it “Deepsneak”, failing to make it clear that the reason people love Deepseek is that you can download and it run it securely on any of your own private devices or servers - unlike most of the competing SOTA AIs.
I can’t speak for Proton, but the last couple weeks are showing some very clear biases coming out.
im not an expert at criticism, but I think its fair from their part.
I mean, can you remind me what are the hardware requirements to run deepseek locally?
oh, you need a high-end graphics card with at least 8 GB VRAM for that*? for the highly distilled variants! for more complete ones you need multiple such graphics card interconnected!how many do you think have access to such a system, I mean even 1 high-end gpu with just 8 GB VRAM, considering that more and more people only have a smartphone nowadays, but also that these are very expensive even for gamers?
and as you will read in the 2nd referenced article below, memory size is not the only factor: the distill requiring only 1 GB VRAM still requires a high-end gpu for the model to be usable.so my point is that when talking about deepseek, you can’t ignore how they operate their online service, as most people will only be able to try that.
I understand that recently it’s very trendy, and cool to shit on Proton, but they have a very strong point here.
The 1.5B version that can be run basically on anything. My friend runs it in his shitty laptop with 512MB iGPU and 8GB of RAM (inference takes 30 seconds)
You don’t even need a GPU with good VRAM, as you can offload it to RAM (slower inference, though)
I’ve run the 14B version on my AMD 6700XT GPU and it only takes ~9GB of VRAM (inference over 1k tokens takes 20 seconds). The 8B version takes around 5-6GB of VRAM (inference over 1k tokens takes 5 seconds)
The numbers in your second link are waaaaaay off.
Just because the average consumer doesn’t have the hardware to use it in a private manner does not mean it’s not achievable. The article straight up pretends self hosting doesn’t exist.
of course, move the ducking goalposts! buying a big yacht is also achievable, technically! but very little of the people can actually do it.
don’t forget what did OP say:
failing to make it clear that the reason people love Deepseek is that you can download and it run it securely on any of your own private devices or servers
don’t believe me? look at the post text. this is as large a misunderstanding as the Eiffel Tower. Virtually nobody can run it on their private devices, that fraction of a percent is basically a rounding error.
I’m so tired of this fucking bullshit. but let’s hate proton for it if that’s what’s trendy!
There are plenty of other online platforms where you can use the unmodified model without siphoning your data to China. The model itself is just an offline blob and doesn’t need to be modified to make a “more secure” and “privacy friendly” version like the article says it does, because the model is not tasked with collecting and sharing your data. The author doesn’t seem to be aware of that.
except that the model is not offline if you access it through yet another online service, doing who knows what with your data
Goddammit I had such high hopes for Proton. Was planning on that being my post-Google main. Now what. 💀
I’ve been happy with Fastmail for 10 years, though they’re Australian and not European. Might look into a European alternative at some point but so far I’ve had no reason to switch.
Tutanota and Mailfence have a free tier.
At this point I’m this 🤏 close to
hosting my own emailabandoning it all and living in a cabin in yhe woodsMan, I wish self hosted email was a reasonable thing to do. But it’s a pain to set up the server and the domain stuff, and once you do, if anyone ever spammed off that IP, you’re probably screwed anyway because good luck getting off the blacklists.
Anything European-based to recommend? I’d like something as far-removed from America as possible, respecting GDPR, privacy, etc., but with a good-sized free-tier storage. I don’t think I need more than a couple GB for email. Calendar included would be a big plus as well. 😅 Probably asking for a lot here…
I use Infomaniak Mail or ikmail for short. They give you 20GB free, have a whole suite (calendar and others), and are Swiss based. It can also link to other mail clients under the free tier. Only hurdle is using a VPN or proxy for initial sign up, but that can be turned off for daily usage.
I found this while searching on my own. Might help someone else. 🤷♂️
Tutanota is gdpr but only 1GB free storage. They do offer calendar for free as well with open sourced apps.
Thanks! I saw Tuta from the previous comment and thought 1 GB is a bit on the small side, kind of like Proton. But not too expensive to go up a tier either. 👍
honestly probably worth paying for for something if it means enough to you
It’s simple:
bad.Well you just made me choke on my laughter. Well done, well done.
🤣
CHYNA
Pretty rich coming from Proton, who shoved a LLM into their mail client mere months ago.
wait, what? How did I miss that? I use protonmail, and I didn’t see anything about an LLM in the mail client. Nor have I noticed it when I check my mail. Where/how do I find and disable that shit?
Thank you. I’ve saved the link and will be disabling it next time I log in. Can’t fucking escape this AI/LLM bullshit anywhere.
The combination of AI, crypto wallet and CEO’s pro-MAGA comments (all within six months or so!) are why I quit Proton. They’ve completely lost the plot. I just want a reliable email service and file storage.
Crypto and AI focus was a weird step before all this came out. But now we know Andy is pro republican… completes a very unappealing picture. We should have a database tho, plenty of c level execs and investor groups do far worse and get no scrutiny simply because they don’t post about it on the internet.
Once all that crap came out, I felt incredibly justified by never having switched to Proton.
It was entirely out of laziness, but still
what’s a good privacy replacement for email/pass?
After using Proton for a couple years I’ve come around to the POV that private email is a dead end. There was not a single occasion where the sender or recipient of any email was also using encryption. If I want encrypted comms I use Signal. Instead of Pass I went back to using Bitwarden.
I’m considering leaving proton too. The two things I really care about are simplelogin and the VPN with port forwarding. As far as I understand it, proton is about the last VPN option you can trust with port forwarding
Happily using AirVPN for port forwarding.
I’m strongly considering switching to them! How do you like it?
As far as I understand it, proton is about the last VPN option you can trust with port forwarding
Could you explain this part please? What makes them untrustworthy?
I’m not 100% sure if you mean what do I think makes proton untrustworthy, or what do I think makes other vpns untrustworthy?
If you’re referring to proton, some of the statements Andy Yen have made recently are painting proton as less neutral than they claim to be.
I’m also generally aware that a LOT of vpn outfits are just a different company mining your traffic and data, and that there are few “no log” vpns that you can trust.
Despite their recent statements that sour my taste in giving proton money (and the ai bullshit that every goddam company is shoving down our throats), I trust proton when they say no logs. They’re regularly audited for it.
I don’t trust all these other VPN companies that claim to be no log and have nothing to back them up. Especially when several of them have been caught logging and mining/selling the data they claim to not be logging.
they were also caught praising a nazi party so thats that too
To be fair its correct but it’s poor writing to skip the self hosted component. These articles target the company not the model.
DeepSeek is open source, meaning you can modify code(new window) on your own app to create an independent — and more secure — version. This has led some to hope that a more privacy-friendly version of DeepSeek could be developed. However, using DeepSeek in its current form — as it exists today, hosted in China — comes with serious risks for anyone concerned about their most sensitive, private information.
Any model trained or operated on DeepSeek’s servers is still subject to Chinese data laws, meaning that the Chinese government can demand access at any time.
What??? Whoever wrote this sounds like he has 0 understanding of how it works. There is no “more privacy-friendly version” that could be developed, the models are already out and you can run the entire model 100% locally. That’s as privacy-friendly as it gets.
“Any model trained or operated on DeepSeek’s servers are still subject to Chinese data laws”
Operated, yes. Trained, no. The model is MIT licensed, China has nothing on you when you run it yourself. I expect better from a company whose whole business is on privacy.
What??? Whoever wrote this sounds like he has 0 understanding of how it works. There is no “more privacy-friendly version” that could be developed, the models are already out and you can run the entire model 100% locally. That’s as privacy-friendly as it gets.
Unfortunately it is you who have 0 understanding of it. Read my comment below. Tldr: good luck to have the hardware
I understand it well. It’s still relevant to mention that you can run the distilled models on consumer hardware if you really care about privacy. 8GB+ VRAM isn’t crazy, especially if you have a ton of unified memory on macbooks or some Windows laptops releasing this year that have 64+GB unified memory. There are also websites re-hosting various versions of Deepseek like Huggingface hosting the 32B model which is good enough for most people.
Instead, the article is written like there is literally no way to use Deepseek privately, which is literally wrong.
So I’ve been interested in running one locally but honestly I’m pretty confused what model I should be using. I have a laptop with a 3070 mobile in it. What model should I be going after?
as I said in my original comment, it’s not only VRAM that matters.
I honestly doubt that even gamer laptops can run these models with a usable speed, but even if we add up the people who have such a laptop, and those who have a PC powerful enough to run these models, they are tiny fractions of those that use the internet on the world. it is basically not available to those that want to use it. ot is available to some of them, but not nearly all who may want it
Obviously you need lots of GPUs to run large deep learning models. I don’t see how that’s a fault of the developers and researchers, it’s just a fact of this technology.
There are already other providers like Deepinfra offering DeepSeek. So while the the average person (like me) couldn’t run it themselves, they do have alternative options.
Down votes be damned, you are right to call out the parent they clearly dont articulate their point in a way that confirms they actually understand what is going on and how an open source model can still have privacy implications if the masses use the company’s hosted version.
Is it Open Source? I cannot find the source code. The official repository https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-R1 only contains images, a PDF file, and links to download the model. But I don’t see any code. What exactly is Open Source here?
I don’t see the source either. Fair cop.
Thanks for confirmation. I made a top level comment too, because this important information gets lost in the comment hierarchy here.
Open source is in general wrong term in all of these “open source” LLM’s (like LLAMA and R1), the model is shared, but there is no real way of reproducing the model. This is because the training data is never shared.
In my mind open source means that you can reproduce the same binary from source. The models are shared for free, but not “open”.
I think they mean privacy friendly version of the infrastructure could be developed.
To be fair, most people can’t actually self-host Deepseek, but there already are other providers offering API access to it.
There are plenty of step-by-step guides to run Deepseek locally. Hell, someone even had it running on a Raspberry Pi. It seems to be much more efficient than other current alternatives.
That’s about as openly available to self host as you can get without a 1-button installer.
Running R1 locally isn’t realistic. But you can rent a server and run it privately on someone else’s computer. It costs about 10 per hour to run. You can run it on CPU for a little less. You need about 2TB of RAM.
If you want to run it at home, even quantized in 4 bit, you need 20 4090s. And since you can only have 4 per computer for normal desktop mainboards, that’s 5 whole extra computers too, and you need to figure out networking between them. A more realistic setup is probably running it on CPU, with some layers offloaded to 4 GPUs. In that case you’ll need 4 4090s and 512GB of system RAM. Absolutely not cheap or what most people have, but technically still within the top top top end of what you might have on your home computer. And remember this is still the dumb 4 bit configuration.
Edit: I double-checked and 512GB of RAM is unrealistic. In fact anything higher than 192 is unrealistic. (High-end) AM5 mainboards support up to 256GB, but 64GB RAM sticks are much more expensive than 48GB ones. Most people will probably opt for 48GB or lower sticks. You need a Threadripper to be able to use 512GB. Very unlikely for your home computer, but maybe it makes sense with something else you do professionally. In which case you might also have 8 RAM slots. And such a person might then think it’s reasonable to spend 3000 Euro on RAM. If you spent 15K Euro on your home computer, you might be able to run a reduced version of R1 very slowly.
You don’t need that much ram to run this
How much do you need? Show your maths. I looked it up online for my post, and the website said 1747GB, which is completely in-line with other models.
Those are not deepseek R1. They are unrelated models like llama3 from Meta or Qwen from Alibaba “distilled” by deepseek.
This is a common method to smarten a smaller model from a larger one.
Ollama should have never labelled them deepseek:8B/32B. Way too many people misunderstood that.
The 1.5B/7B/8B/13B/32B/70B models are all officially DeepSeek R1 models, that is what DeepSeek themselves refer to those models as. It is DeepSeek themselves who produced those models and released them to the public and gave them their names. And their names are correct, it is just factually false to say they are not DeepSeek R1 models. They are.
The “R1” in the name means “reasoning version one” because it does not just spit out an answer but reasons through it with an internal monologue. For example, here is a simple query I asked DeepSeek R1 13B:
Me: can all the planets in the solar system fit between the earth and the moon?
DeepSeek: Yes, all eight planets could theoretically be lined up along the line connecting Earth and the Moon without overlapping. The combined length of their diameters (approximately 379,011 km) is slightly less than the average Earth-Moon distance (about 384,400 km), allowing them to fit if placed consecutively with no required spacing.
However, on top of its answer, I can expand an option to see its internal monologue it went through before generating the answer, which you can find the internal monologue here because it’s too long to paste.
What makes these consumer-oriented models different is that that rather than being trained on raw data, they are trained on synthetic data from pre-existing models. That’s what the “Qwen” or “Llama” parts mean in the name. The 7B model is trained on synthetic data produced by Qwen, so it is effectively a compressed version of Qen. However, neither Qwen nor Llama can “reason,” they do not have an internal monologue.
This is why it is just incorrect to claim that something like DeepSeek R1 7B Qwen Distill has no relevance to DeepSeek R1 but is just a Qwen model. If it’s supposedly a Qwen model, why is it that it can do something that Qwen cannot do but only DeepSeek R1 can? It’s because, again, it is a DeepSeek R1 model, they add the R1 reasoning to it during the distillation process as part of its training. (I think they use the original R1 to produce the data related to the internal monologue which it is learns to copy.)
What makes these consumer-oriented models different is that that rather than being trained on raw data, they are trained on synthetic data from pre-existing models. That’s what the “Qwen” or “Llama” parts mean in the name. The 7B model is trained on synthetic data produced by Qwen, so it is effectively a compressed version of Qen. However, neither Qwen nor Llama can “reason,” they do not have an internal monologue.
You got that backwards. They’re other models - qwen or llama - fine-tuned on synthetic data generated by Deepseek-R1. Specifically, reasoning data, so that they can learn some of its reasoning ability.
But the base model - and so the base capability there - is that of the corresponding qwen or llama model. Calling them “Deepseek-R1-something” doesn’t change what they fundamentally are, it’s just marketing.
There is no “fundamentally” here, you are referring to some abstraction that doesn’t exist. The models are modified during the fine-tuning process, and the process trains them to learn to adopt DeepSeek R1’s reasoning technique. You are acting like there is some “essence” underlying the model which is the same between the original Qwen and this model. There isn’t. It is a hybrid and its own thing. There is no such thing as “base capability,” the model is not two separate pieces that can be judged independently. You can only evaluate the model as a whole. Your comment is just incredibly bizarre to respond to because you are referring to non-existent abstractions and not actually speaking of anything concretely real.
The model is neither Qwen nor DeepSeek R1, it is DeepSeek R1 Qwen Distill as the name says. it would be like saying it’s false advertising to say a mule is a hybrid of a donkey and a horse because the “base capabilities” is a donkey and so it has nothing to do with horses, and it’s really just a donkey at the end of the day. The statement is so bizarre I just do not even know how to address it. It is a hybrid, it’s its own distinct third thing that is a hybrid of them both. The model’s capabilities can only be judged as it exists, and its capabilities differ from Qwen and the original DeepSeek R1 as actually scored by various metrics.
Speaking of its “base capabilities” is a meaningless floating abstraction which cannot be empirically measured and doesn’t refer to anything concretely real. It only has its real concrete capabilities, not some hypothetical imagined capabilities.
I’m running deepseek-r1:14b-qwen-distill-fp16 locally and it produces really good results I find. Like yeah it’s a reduced version of the online one, but it’s still far better than anything else I’ve tried running locally.
Have you compared it with the regular qwen? It was sissy very good
The main difference is speed and memory usage. Qwen is a full-sized, high-parameter model while qwen-distill is a smaller model created using knowledge distillation to mimic qwen’s outputs. If you have the resources to run qwen fast then I’d just go with that.
I think you’re confusing the two. I’m talking about the regular qwen before it was finetuned by deep seek, not the regular deepseek
Its so cute when chinese is sprinkled in randomly hehe my little bilingual robot in my pc
You can run an imitation of the DeepSeek R1 model, but not the actual one unless you literally buy a dozen of whatever NVIDIA’s top GPU is at the moment.
A server grade CPU with a lot of RAM and memory bandwidth would work reasonable well, and cost “only” ~$10k rather than 100k+…
I saw posts about people running it well enough for testing purposes on an NVMe.
Can you link that post?
That’s cool! I’m really interested to know how many tokens per second you can get with a really good U.2. My gut is that it won’t actually be better than the 24VRAM+96RAM cache setup this user already tested with though.
Thanks!
It might be that they’re equating the name with the app and company, not the open source model, based on one of the first lines:
AI chat apps like ChatGPT collect user data, filter responses, and make content moderation decisions that are not always transparent.
Emphasis mine. The rest of the article reads the same way.
Most people aren’t privacy-conscious enough to care who gets what data and who’s building the binaries and web apps, so sounding the alarm is appropriate for people who barely know the difference between AI and AGI.
I get that people are mad at Proton right now (anyone have a link? I’m behind on the recent stuff), but we should ensure we get mad at things that are real, not invent imaginary ones based on contrived contexts.
Here is a general write up about the CEO showing their maga colors.
More happened in the reddit thread though that added some more elements, like the ceo opting for a new user name with “88” in it (a common right wing reference), his unprompted use of the phrase “didnt mean to trigger you,” him evasively refusing to clarify what his stance actually was because “that would be more politics,” on and on. You can read through that thread here, although proton corporate are mods, so i have no idea what they may have deleted at this point.
The thread was full of “mask on” behavior that is pretty transparent to anyone experienced with the alt right on the internet.
Thank you so much! That was way beyond what I could have hoped.
I’ll read the link you provided in a bit, but that does sound really bad. Must suck to work at a company you think is helping people stay private only to have the CEO come out as pro-fascism.
No problem mate. The thread is a mess, but if you read the comments below the top pinned one, you’ll see most of the salient points that pissed people off. The “color” i mentioned above came from all over that thread, with some ofi t deleted. I know he edited/deleted the “triggered” comment when he was called out, but he never expanded on why he claimed the GOP was the “party of the little guy” and why all the “corporate dems” needed to be thrown out to get anything done. He also opted not to respond at all to people asking why he thought the party of tech billionaires was suddenly going to crack down on tech billionaires besides saying he really liked J.D vance, a tech millionaire whose political run was funded by, get this, tech billionaire Peter theil.
Dude fawned very publicly over tech billionaire maga, who will do clearly do nothing for privacy and monopoly busting, while pretending that the real issue is chuck shumers daughters working in tech.
I wasn’t a customer of theirs (I’m always skeptical of super-popular-anything), but I think I’ll look elsewhere for secure email.
Not because of this article, which I think makes some decent points, but because I would worry in the back of my mind that the Officers of the company would happily bow to their demigods and start secretly tracking people as a show of fealty.
Most people aren’t privacy-conscious enough to care who gets what data
I assume most people who pay for proton don’t fall into this category
it is certainly that. but recently its become very trendy to hate Proton, so its just easier to do that instead of thinking. I’m really disappointed in this community
Yeah it’s a fair call, but to me it is the very context of why people are made at Proton that makes me suspicious of articles like this.
I can’t find the original summary post someone made, but here’s the last response from Proton CEO. Read the comments as well to get a good summary: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/
TL;DR: Proton used their official accounts to share CEO’s pro-US-Republican thoughts as their official stance. They since apologized and said they would use personal account to share those thoughts. But (IMO) now having posted this blog on the actual Proton website, it says to me that there are some serious bias alignment issues with a company that is supposed to be a safe-haven away from all of that.
There are many llms you can use offline
Including DeepSeek: https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai
Deepseek works reasonably well, even at cpu only in ollama. I ran the 7b and 1.5b models and it wasn’t awful. 7b slowed down as the convo went on, but the 1.5b model felt pretty passable while I was playing with it
I cancelled my Proton renewal for January and am very happy with Mullvad VPN.
Mozilla VPN runs Mullvad under the hood as well.
I remember mullvad has less servers than proton and I hear they get blacklisted often. Have you encountered anything like this?
I’ve been “blocked by network security” on reddit. Switching to the next server resolves the issue.
Does Mullvad have “Secure Core” option like Proton does? I’m kinda thinking about switching.
Proton have been too noisy from the very start .
Jesus fuckin Christ, just marry Trump at this point, Mister proton CEO.
How apt, just yesterday I put together an evidenced summary of the CEOs recent absurd comments. Why are Proton so keen to throw away so much good will people had invested in them?!
This is what the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team stated in a response on r/ProtonMail:
Here is our official response, also available on the Mastodon post in the screenshot:
Corporate capture of Dems is real. In 2022, we campaigned extensively in the US for anti-trust legislation.
Two bills were ready, with bipartisan support. Chuck Schumer (who coincidently has two daughters working as big tech lobbyists) refused to bring the bills for a vote.
At a 2024 event covering antitrust remedies, out of all the invited senators, just a single one showed up - JD Vance.
By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade first hand.
Dems had a choice between the progressive wing (Bernie Sanders, etc), versus corporate Dems, but in the end money won and constituents lost.
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
Source: https://archive.ph/quYyb
To call out the important bits:
- He refers to it as the “official response”
- Indicates that JD Vance is on their side just because he attended an event that other invited senators didn’t
- Rattles on about “corporate Dems” with incredible bias
- States “Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses” which is immediately refuted by every response
That was posted in ther/ProtonMail sub where the majority of the event took place: https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/
However be aware that the CEO posting as u/Proton_Team kept editing his comments so I wouldn’t trust the current state of it. Plus the proton team/subreddit mods deleted a ton of discussion they didn’t like. Therefore this archive link captured the day after might show more but not all: https://web.archive.org/web/20250116060727/https://old.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i1zjgn/so_that_happened/m7ahrlm/
Some statements were made on Mastodon but these are subsequently deleted, but they’re capture by an archive link: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115165213/https://mastodon.social/@protonprivacy/113833073219145503
I learned about it from an r/privacy thread but true to their reputation the mods there also went on a deletion spree and removed the entire post: https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/
This archive link might show more but I’ve not checked: https://web.archive.org/web/20250115193443/https://old.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/1i210jg/protonmail_supporting_the_party_that_killed/
There’s also this lemmy discussion from the day after but by that point the Proton team had fully kicked in their censorship so I don’t know how much people were aware of (apologies I don’t know how to make a generic lemmy link) https://feddit.uk/post/22741653
Until corporate Dems are thrown out, the reality is that Republicans remain more likely to tackle Big Tech abuses.
What a fucking dumbass. Yes, dems suck. But at least Lina Khan was head of the FTC and starting to change how antitrust laws are enforced. Did he delete this post after Trump was inaugurated with 3 of the richest tech billionaires?
Lisa Khan is a hero. This is quite twisted “logic”: this party sucks, so let’s side with Hitler instead.
Did he delete this post after Trump was inaugurated with 3 of the richest tech billionaires?
The nominees were announced long before trump was inaugurated.
Indicates that JD Vance is on their side just because he attended an event that other invited senators didn’t
🤣
Show up at an event = my best friend and definitely not a leopard ready to eat my face ???
🤔
(What a dumbass)
Guys I know OpenAI is not clear, its as bad as deepseek and even worse, BUT you have to realize, that most people don’t give a fuck about running deepseek locally, they just download deepsek app and use it, which is more privacy intrusive even than ClosedAI. Giving information to China, when you live on the west is like giving russians information, when you live in Ukraine. We are on constant war with China, because we are democratic, they are communism, and we cannot just give them our data for free, therefore I have to admit PROTON IS RIGHT about deepseek being “deepsneak”
Propaganda got ya good bud. Sure. It’s important but Jesus. Lol. ChatGPT does the same shit but doesn’t let me run it locally. Fuck ChatGPT
“I don’t care if rus or china”… Guys you really don’t think. If you lived in Ukraine, would you care about giving russians address where you live? Then why you don’t care giving them your data, when you live on the west? Because we are not physically fighting rus/china doesn’t mean we are not on the war with them. I said it is great Deepseek is possible to host locally, but no one cares, everyone use their app anyway, and this is the problem, as it is even worse than using ClosedAI.
I want Russia to win (and it will) and I want China to win (and it will). My use of an LLM isn’t going to make one lick of difference one way or the other, but if it did, I would help it in any and every conceivable way.
You are a fucking nerd for thinking you have more “privacy” to lose to China than to the profiteering, rent-seeking silicon valley bastards who are already and right now exploiting the fuck outta you.
I’d better be a “fucking nerd” that invented all that shit that you use now, than a fucking idiot who doesn’t ever use brain and probably lives in a fucking america. But I like how so many kids think communism is good, when they live in a democratic freedom country. Read some books, use this technology for something else instead bullshit, as you don’t know the world yet.
Lol, I have been reading theory for almost 2 decades now, kid.
I even taught at a community college for a while.Listen, this is clearly a case of “every accusation a confession” - that is to say, you are well aware of your own naivete and so you project it onto others as a defense mechanism. Fortunately, there is a cure for that sort of ignorance, and in large part it does indeed involve reading theory and exposing yourself to perspectives that may seem frightening due to your having been awash in a sea of propaganda all your life. Come join our Das Kapital reading group on hexbear (hosted by the awesome @Cowbee@hexbear.net) and maybe learn a little something about the real world you’re so painfully unaware of.
Thanks for the shout-out, comrade! For anyone that wants to join, we are a month in so it will take a bit of aggressive reading to catch-up, but we do have archived links for past threads, both for this year and last year’s, so you can go through those threads and get up to speed.
As a queer person I don’t really care at this point if China or Russia is tracking me. They aren’t the ones who are currently stripping me and others of rights and so many other things.
I don’t trust any governments on this front, but the government I live under is way more of a concern.
Russia specifically is a big part of why trump is in power. They weren’t the sole contributors, but they definitely helped a lot. And they achieved it by buying, stealing, and collecting data on people and doing targeting misinformation campaign.
If russia had manipulated the election, it would have been in favor of biden
That’s… Not actually a reasonse to what was said?
Sure, that’s all fine and dandy. But it doesn’t change the point that was being made.
The election happened. Here and now, Russia and China tracking me is no different than the US. They’re all authoritarian governments hell bent on stripping rights away.
Now I’m not the same person you replied to. I’m in Canada, so I’m weary of all of them. But if I was in the states, I’d RATHER give my data to an advisory that won’t do much with it. As apposed to the current government hellbent on making life for me and my trans siblings as hard and difficult as possible.
Nothing ever “happened” . Politics is an ongoing process. Putin actively wants the west in disarray and in chaos, China wants it to be weak and submissive. They use the data they buy and gather to achieve that. And if you think Putin has nothing to do with rampant queerphobia, you just ignorant about him
But again, how is that any different to me, as a Canadian, than an American social media company?
All of that is still true.
All the US companies have kissed the ring and are bowing to facsim.
Western social media still has its own agenda. And it’s not human Rights either.
oh yea its russias fault that most americans voters are bigot reactionaries.
Off topic:
Don’t get a Chinese Android phone tho. Because you’ll have both CCP AND NSA Spyware.
Best bet is Pixel + Graphene OS since LGBTQ+ people are gonna get targeted.
we are democratic, they are communism, and we cannot just give them our data for free,
You got a lot to learn but this statement gave me serious loolz
China isn’t communist and America isn’t democratic. They both suck way worse than that.
China is not communist, they are market-captialistic, one-party highly authoritarian state. “socialism” and “cmmunism” is just used to make them sound better and more legitimate than they are.
lib parrot comment
Are you even a communist?
Name all AES
The PRC has a Socialist Market Economy. The presence of private ownership in an economy isn’t enough to determine its structure, otherwise the inverse would apply and the US’s publicly owned structures would make it Socialist. Rather, what determines the “label” of an economy is which is primary, public ownership and planning, or markets and profits, and where its heading. Ie, do markets serve the interests of the public sector and are subservient to it, or does the public sector serve the private sector and the pursuit of profits?
I would argue that it is about incentives. A market economy is about maximizing profit, so that (the class of) shareholders get more money out of it, than they put into it. Incentivising making money means you incentives a race to the bottom, producing lots of expensive and addicting crap that easily breaks for as little cost as possible. And you incentivise massive consumption of it.
A socialist economy should instead incentivise improving the world for all the people that live in it. Produce stuff that is robust, adaptable, sustainable and so on. Incentivise the mindfulness of the social and ecological impact of each product. And if someone needs something special, incentivise local makerspaces etc. that allows people to produce custom stuff in low quantities.
Is China in the room with you right now?
1978 US Automotive Companies: If we make a product that locks our customers in, they’ll be our customers forever!
1978 Japanese Automotive Companies: The US gave us their required parameters. If we make a product that works then customers will keep buying our stuff.
2025 US Tech Companies: If we make our products contingent on proprietary software and hardware, we’ll lock them in.
2025 Chinese Tech Companies: The US gave us their required parameters. If we make a product that works and they can utilize freely, they’ll keep buying our stuff.
Not our first rodeo.
OpenAI, Google, and Meta, for example, can push back against most excessive government demands.
Sure they “can” but do they?
“Pushing back against the government” doesn’t even make sense. These people are oligarchs. They largely are the government. Who attended Trump’s inauguration? Who hosted Trump’s inauguration party? These US tech oligarchs.
They cannot. When big daddy FBI knocks on the door and you get that forced NDA you, will build in backdoors and comply with anything the US government tells you.
Even then the US might want to you to shut down because they want to control your company.
TikTok.
Why do that when you can just score a deal with the government to give them whatever information they want for sweet perks like foreign competitors getting banned?
