I hate that this is a meme.
Exactly.
Almost like that’s the point.
Only valid for the American political.
All my friends here in Europe, up to and including centre right, are the far left wojak in this meme
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Why are you calling everyone who didn’t agree with names?
It’s shocking how aggressive you guys are.
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See you’re an aggressive person. It’s pretty disturbing
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You once again misstate the Center, which is of course to be expected on Tankie Central, couple that with the Far Left having just spent last spring and summer waiving the flags of hezbollah and hamas marching and camping in university commons across the nation chanting “from the river to the sea”, your sad faced leftists is particularly laughable
This is an excellent example of how the Democrats lost the last election.
You think caring about Palestinian’s is a communist thing?
I’m not a communist but I say a few things loud and clear. Free Palestine. Fuck the IDF…
“Caring about Palestine” is not the same as waving the flags of Hezbollah, and Hamas, and changing “from the river to the sea”
I support Palestine and Palestinians. Israel is committing genocide.
I am also Jewish and will never wave a Hezbollah or Hamas flag, nor will you ever hear me chant that antisemitic phrase promoting the extermination of Jews.
You’re acting just as bad as the Israelis when it comes to perceiving anything but complete support for everything they do as an attack
I agree with the start of this post, and then it got a were bit unhinged.
I’m not acting anything, I was responding to your weird post that seemed to insinuate this place was communist central and everyone here was Hamas sympathisers.
I don’t know enough history to understand why Hezbollah are seen as worse than the IDF. Even when I researched, I couldn’t find anywhere near the civilian body count. I thought that was the hallmark of terrorism.
It’s really, really easy to find a ton of information on Hezbollah and their history of criminal atrocities. Like, 20 minutes of googling easy.
Also it wasn’t my comment you were replying to.
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
Which sea and which river was that again? Is it perhaps some geography that categorically precludes the existence of Israel? Since, you know, from the river to the sea must be free, and I am pretty sure they don’t mean “free, under Israeli governance”
My understanding was that the phrase “from the river to the sea” is associated with a “one-state-solution” to the conflict. The second link in the comment you’re replying to goes into this more in depth, but it’s not a new discussion: here’s a piece from Edward Saïd in 1999.
A one state solution doesn’t call for the genocide of Israelis. The equal and active participation of the Israeli people would be necessary for such a one state solution to work; you can’t solve a genocide with more genocide.
It’s about Palestinian emancipation from Israeli Settlers Colonialism, from Apartheid. Zionism has been about the Settler Colonialism and Ethnic Cleansing of the native Palestinians since the start. Partition was used to preemptively justify the Nakba. The 1967 occupation was used to justify expanding into the West Bank and Gaza and begin more settlements. I and many others support a One-State Solution, because it’s a One-State Reality, one entrenched in Apartheid.
I am pretty sure they don’t mean “free, under Israeli governance”
They do, but I’m not sure you understand the scope of brutality and violence Palestinians are subjugated to under Israel supremacy and Apartheid, and have been for generations.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
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10 myths of Israel by Ilan Pappe, summerized and full book
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Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.
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Israel Martial Law and Defence (Emergency) Regulations practiced in the occupied territories after 1967
Peace Process and Solution
Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades.
Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution
(Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ).
The settlements have created hundreds of isolated bantustans within the West Bank, preventing any two-state solution that may have been possible before the Israeli occupation in 1967
The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.
How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution
‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe
Historian Works on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
In the Shadow of the Holocaust by Masha Gessen, the situation in Gaza is compared to the Warsaw Ghettos. The comparison was also made by a Palestinian poet who was later killed by an Israeli airstrike.
Adi Callai has also written on the parallels in his article The Gaza Ghetto Uprising and expanded upon in his corresponding video. It’s seriously worth a watch
What are you trying to say? Incomprehensible
You think lemmy.world is tankie central?
Is Saturday Night Live on this weekend? I hope they open with Musk the night before, practicing in front of a mirror. “First I’m gonna sieg heil, then twirl, then sieg heil again, then recite the Fourteen Words. No… maybe just salute, then do a HALF turn, then only HINT at the 14 words… People will get it!”
Yes, with host Timothée Chalamet. Interesting that space hitler is hosting snl after Musk did this.
It would be awesome if they did something with this. But their corporate owners will doubtlessly forbid it.
I hope they just completely recreate one of Hitler’s speeches but with Elon instead.
Or better yet, that video of Hitler watching the Olympics while completely tweaked out
No one on the left is crestfallen or surprised or whatever that wojak means that an oligarch is also a fascist. Or that a racist dipshit who praised the nazi party like last week happens to be a nazi.
No one does that on accident. This will be far worse than most expect
He also did it twice in a row.
He makes the face that a 12-year-old would make when trying to be cool and do something they’re not supposed to. It’s a recurring thing with him, both acting and looking like a shitty child.
Well, since he did it in the opposite direction, it cancels out the first one!
And what do we do with nazis?
Punch them in the face.
That is a lot milder than what I was taught.
It’s much easier if you remove the face first.
But you do realize they didn’t celebrate “not getting banned by court” with their small group of a few lads but winning presidency with likely a sizable chunk of voters fully supporting them in even their more crude views?
Hammer in their head
You guys are really disturbingly violent. Isn’t the Nazis being violent the reason why people don’t like Nazis. You seem just as bad
I see you would struggle with the trolley problem. Look up some pictures of Nazi’s smiling next to large piles of emaciated corpses and tell me that I’m just as bad for wanting them dead.
No body should want any body dead. I’m against violence of any kind.
If only the Russians thought like you, then the Nazi’s would’ve won. Perhaps you like that more than having a spine.
I don’t threaten people with violence. You’re just as bad as them, if you think violence is the solution.
::Checks username:: Oh so that’s why you’re slow.
It’s self defense. They want me dead by definition.
Well obviously that’s wrong
But going out and trying to kill them is no better.
None of it should happen.
Shoot them on sight, they’re enemy combatants 😏
Your scale is way off, the whole scale should be between right of centre and far right
I feel like “noo it wasn’t a Nazi salute, or uh, it wasn’t intentional” is more of a “right of center” response instead of a “center” response, and “Elon Musk just did a Nazi salute on live TV” is closer to center, but otherwise this seems accurate.
Maybe the Overton window has shifted so far right that I’m wrong about that, though.
On this case, the “noo it wasn’t a Nazi salute, or uh, it wasn’t intentional” is a “nazis paid me to say this” response. At best it’s “I haven’t seen it, and I don’t trust you” answer.
But well, the people criticizing “centrists” are usually on that later category, and usually for good reason, so their experience may be biased.
None of the mainstream media wanted to call it out for what it was. They profess to be centrist, but you could indeed probably classify them as centre right, especially when it comes to economic issues.
The problem is that America has no mainstream centrist or leftist media. It’s either center-right or far-right. The closest we get to a progressive are comics like John Stewart and John Oliver.
It’s amazing how US divisive culture is just swapping over to other countries. Now the radicals are trying to push that being in the middle is an issue. Imagine that: being able to not demonize everybody and everything that doesn’t belong to your tribe is now worth ridicule in the US.
What county are you posting from buddy?
And they’re SO aggressive, name calling, degrading language. It’s pretty disturbing how aggressively they’re pushing this. If you don’t agree with them that this might not be a questionable salute you’re garage and probably a nazi.
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As a European center, does that put you between the radical far left (community based government, right to eat, right to housing, right to education, medical care for all, meeting and exceeding the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, etc.) and the radical far right (Monarchy, Totalitarian Oligarchy, the thing that Trump and Musk want, and will have to fight for)?
Or is it centrist as in between Neoliberal and MAGA?
The reason I ask is because here in the states Centrist means the latter, e.g. people who still hate the homeless and expect immigrants to go through (nonexistent for most) legal channels.
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If it’s any consolation, in Australia that’d make you far-left.
Leaning left or right mostly means how you want the money for all that to come from
You just have no study of history or politics, that’s the difference. You believe that “high education” will magically solve wealth inequality, oligarchy/monopoly, and the drive for ever-increasing and maximized profit that is intrinsically opposed to a welfare state and to ecological conservation.
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Restrictions implanted to not let companies exploit people do that
And how are you exactly going to do that as long as companies control the government, as they do in capitalism? How’s regulation working so far, with every country violating the IPCC recommendations?
Works in my country. Works for welfare states
Bullshit. All “welfare states” rely on unequal exchange through the exploitation of the global south. Without poor people on the other side of the world extracting resources for misery wages and toiling their lives away at sweatshops, your country would have no welfare.
We were part of the soviet union, we know exactly how oppression, totaliatarian control of the ruling class, genocide, mass murder, oligarchy run government, inequality and systematic ecological catastrophies look like.
How old were you exactly in 1991?
extreme left wants to use violence in order to get rid of everyone they deem unfit for their ideal society
lmao there’s a difference between using violence to remove the capitalist class from power and using violence to genocide minorities.
I know you are being downvoted but I feel similar for the most part, I do find that not all countries versions of the left-centre-right divide marry up to each other and even the terminologies can get confusing. e.g in UK we have Liberal Democrats who are the only Centre party but the word Liberal in there can cause confusion for others. In Scotland we have free education including all the way through to degrees at universities etc thought that was started by the left wing government, the centre party wants to keep it as does the right wing.
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It was definitely questionable. People saying it’s 100% are being unreasonable. There’s a large interpretation here.
And calling people names and trying to bully people into accepting your view is disturbing.
He threw his hand out from his heart and said my heart goes out to you. It’s definitely questionable.
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Don’t point to a swastika and tell me it’s a windmill.
What was performed, is a textbook nazi salute. Start to finish.
No the hands grabbing the heart isn’t. Actual Nazis have said this.
And then throwing it out to the crowd is different.
WW2, might seem like a long time ago. But it really isn’t. We have video footage of Hitler himself. Performing this exact routine.
Would you like me to spoon-feed you a side by side comparison?
Center-right, previously strong (not far) right. That was clearly two Nazi salutes done by a drugged out oligarch. There’s no way around it.
I hate these filthy Neutrals, Kif. With enemies you know where they stand but with Neutrals, who knows? It sickens me.
If I don’t survive, tell my wife hello.
Code beige
What exactly is the “context” for doing a full-on nazi salute? Other than to show everyone that you’re a nazi?
Heres context. At the time I didnt put together that he really meant the national kind.
It’s right out of Trump’s playbook. You do something outrageous and evil, with just a smidgen of deniability… it gets them attention. That’s what they crave, to lead the news cycle, to be hated by the left but maintain enough deniability that the center and right will still be on your side. This is Trump 101.
That is the fascist playbook. Testing the water to see what you can get away with now while normalising new levels of evil.
Heat of the moment, not everyone you don’t like is a Nazi
At least those are the excuses I’ve seen
Because it’s not a nazi salute. You guys are acting like Nazis
It’s disturbing how aggressive you all are
It’s literally, a nazi salute. And I don’t use the word literally often.
The only thing disturbing aside from the salute is people like you defending it
A women hitting a neo nazi, is a nazi salute?
There are gifs of side by side comparison with literally Hitler doing the exact same movement. There side by side gifs with neo-nazis doing the exact same movement. You have Germans saying “Yeah, that was totally a nazi salute”. You have historians saying it was a nazi salute.
But okay, let’s say it wasn’t a Nazi salute. There’s mainstream sentiment clearly indicating that people thought it was a Nazi salute and he definitely is aware of that sentiment. Why hasn’t he said “it wasn’t a nazi salute. I never intended to make it seem like it was.”? Any sane person would instantly try to distance themselves from being perceived as a Nazi because nobody, besides a dumbass nazi, would want to be associated with nazis.
I don’t like Elon. I think he’s not very smart, and I want him far from the government. I suspect he’s cozying up to Trump to get funding for SpaceX, and electric vehicle subsidies, and he’ll probably continue his underhanded battle against any kind of good public transit.
If you watch it as a video, he says “my heart goes out to you”, puts his hand on his heart, then does a throwing motion, that ends with his hand up, and out to the side. Then he turns to a different part of the crowd, and does the same motion again.
It’s not an accident, it’s an awkward gesture, because he’s an awkward person. A Nazi salute has the arm held up, and directly forward from the shoulder for some time. His arm is out to the side, and only there for a moment. Unfortunately, there are probably neonazis too stupid to know the differences.
Treating everything as Nazi symbolism means that more and more people won’t hear alarm bells when you say there’s Nazi imagery, so the media pushing hoaxes like this is bad for public discourse as a whole.
He said the magic words “my heart to you” clearly clarifies that his salute was meant to be that, duh /s
You mean well before what he actually said during the sieg heils
“It is thanks to you, that the future of civilization is assured.”
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Elon Musk inner thoughts: I should Nazi salute. Do it. Do it you pussy. Think of the news it’ll generate. Think of all the votes, oh god I’ll make all the democrats cry that I’m a nazi when I’m not even a nazi! Fuck, lets do it!
nazi salute
Oh god that was awkward as fuck. Okay, let’s do it twice, then make sure they know I’m serious and it wasn’t just some weird fucked up tic I do.
SIEG HEILS even harder
MMHPPHPHPHHHHHHHH SUCK IT AOC.
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Someone should take his heart out. (in minecraft)
I do believe a lot of people – and the mainstream news media here in the states – want to believe this is normal and this is fine the way Trump kept wishing on camera COVID-19 was going to just go away on its own, even as CDC discovered enough instances to declare it has infected the community (e.g. the American public) and could no longer be contained via specific isolation.
They are so desperate to for things to be normal that they want to justify the outrageousness as within the threshold of normal any way they can.
I’m not sure, but Trump behaves as if he likes pushing that envelope, much the way he forced Robert Kennedy Jr. to eat McDonalds to assert dominance.
