Can one still claim that the USA is a liberal democracy? Where do you draw the line?
You must log in or register to comment.
The people saying “always has been” have really short memories or’ve forgotten about the Roosevelt administrations.
There is a decent argument to be made that the USA is a de-facto oligarchy. However, it’s a de-jure liberal democracy and Constitutional Republic for the time being.
Fdr was the exception to the rule. He pushed against the fascist oligarchs to prevent violent uprising of the proletariat.
“To prevent violent uprising of the proletariat” are you actively trying to phrase it to make it sound like even when someone does something good it was actually bad?
Not at all, i just think FDR was more complex than people make him out to be. He wasn’t so much the savior of working class people as he was someone who placated both sides to achieve the best possible outcome. But given the vitriol he inspired from the wealthy its easy to see why he is still so revered by the struggling masses to this day.
There are political cartoons from over a century ago where they’re talking about how much of an oligarchy it is. Look at this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/The_Bosses_of_the_Senate_by_Joseph_Keppler.jpg/1920px-The_Bosses_of_the_Senate_by_Joseph_Keppler.jpg
Pretty sure it crossed that line decades ago.
Late 19th century. There was some pushback, some anti-trust laws with teeth, and then decades of bloody union battles to secure rights workers and their elected officials have thrown away for 50 years.
The concentration of wealth and influence of 10-16 people trumps that of hundreds of millions and is as bad or worse than it was during the robber baron era.
Political representatives are bought and paid for which means the poor have no voice against the wealthy.
We have a justice system that is incapable of prosecuting the wealthy and powerful, when it isn’t being stocked by ideologues.
Meritocracy is dead; Birth has much greater correlation to wealth and power.
Media is fully captured by the wealthy; they own the vast majority of media consumed: TV, film, news, social junk.
Nice country you got here.
Remember when unions thought they were so Irreplaceable and important. That they would withhold Support for a second term from a Democrat, they didn’t think did enough for them. One of the biggest miscalculations and blunders of the post World War II era. Because first they came for the unions and labor power.
I’d say around the beginning of the 1900s is when we truly lost the plot. While we, the workers, were given a few breadcrumbs over the years to appease us, the Owner class was strip mining the wealth at every level imaginable, there’s a reason people like Rockefeller and Carnegie were richer than heaven at this time in history.
I mean, no country truely had 10/10 democracy.
The US literally started out from people in chains, but eventually free the enslaved people (with the prison exemption), then black men could vote, then women.
Segregation was legal, then it it was outlawed.
Civil Right Act was passed
The level of racism began to deminish, not completely gone, but deminishing
I would say the US was at 1/10 democracy at the beginning, it was at 5/10 before trump, then it was at 4/10 right after Jan-6, now its at 4.25/10 (because some judicial appointments were made by biden as a counterbalance to republican judges).
Is it an oligarchy? Not really. I would say it’s a democracy in which rich people have an advantage in money and influence. So I guess you could call it a semi-oligarchy. Because in a real oligarchy, the media would’ve been censored, and you wouldn’t be seeing my comment, you wouldn’t be able to ask such question, there’d be no free(ish) internet access. There’s be no somewhat protected union activity. There’s be no somewhat protected protests. There are often violations to those rights, but back then, it was way worse.
We never really had a true 10/10 democracy, but as time goes on, it tends to trend toward becoming more democratic. (We’ll see what happens with Project 2025. Could be just another period of recession as it has happened many times throughout US history, or it could be Weimar 1933, only time will tell)
Agree. Though the felt level of democracy and freedom seems pretty low. A lot of people feel disadvantaged. People are getting ripped off for example with healthcare payments by the (rich) establishment. I hear a lot of complaints here for example you absolutely need a VPN because all internet service providers spy on you. There seems always to be a choice, but a fake one. In the end, it’s all the same and you can’t really choosse anything but the label that gets slapped on. Same for the politicians. You have like 2 candidates to vote for. Probably neither of those does you any good. And they’re both part of the oligarchy and they put in quite some effort to not offer you any third option.
I’m here hoping to any god that is watching that Project 2025 becomes something like a dog catching the car situation. The Republicans are the dogs and now they are arguing amongst themselves what to do with the car.
I’m planning as if Project 2025 goes forward. If civil war is in my lifetime, the shots will start with the alt-right.
There is a quote that’s been ringing through my head ever since the CEO murder: “Those who make peaceful reform impossible make violent revolution inevitable.”
The Republicans have made any meaningful reform impossible through half-assed negotiations, bad faith arguments, and “fEeLiNgS pOlItIcS” over the last 50 years.
Democrats like AOC and politicians like Bernie are the acute minority. The DNC has moved more toward the right and given workers the middle finger.
Almost every regulatory body has been captured. The overturn of the Chevron doctrine made the rest completely powerless. We now have a fucking lunatic whispering into Trump’s ear to remove accident reporting requirements for his shitty cars. We will have an anti-vaxer running the CDC, a supplement pushing hack running Medicare, and a man who overpaid for Twitter running the fucking “Department of Government Efficacy.”
This is the tip of the iceberg. They aren’t even in office yet and they are already stirring shit.
That was the case since the 80s
The 1880’s
The 1780’s
Really it goes back to prehistory. We had the Paris Commune for, what, a year?
Yes, it has
Tbh I think the most recent election and its implications makes the facts abundantly clear.
I think it’s worse. I think we have noble houses fighting for the throne again. The Bush family, the Clinton family, they wanted Michelle Obama… In what sane democracy does the family member or wife of the last elected leader make sense as being the best option? Forget oligarchy, we have a straight up monarchy brewing with a nice democratic paint job.
Speaking of the nice paint job, it’s a good job you guys made that Eagle thing official. That makes it nice and clear that you’re not at risk of transitioning from democracy to dictatorship.
Blood descendants are a foundation of monarchy though
The Bush family, the Clinton family, they wanted Michelle Obama
That’s how an oligarchy works though. A few powerful people, usually dynastic families, decide how the country should be run. You’re giving an example of oligarchs picking an oligarch. How is that evidence of monarchy rather than oligarchy?
Well in 2015 Jimmy Carter said that the United States is "just an oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery being the essence of getting the nominations for president or to elect the president. And the same thing applies to governors and U.S. senators and congress members. "
That same year The Economist’s Democracy Index downgraded the United States to a “flawed democracy” and it has continued to trend downwards since then.
If you’re looking for something more recent, Bernie Sanders is saying the same thing: “We are moving rapidly into an oligarchic form of society. Never before in American history have so few billionaires, so few people, have so much wealth and so much power”.
So between the massive (and growing) income inequality in the country, and rulings like Citizen’s United it’s hard not to believe it’s not at least on the trajectory towards an oligarchy. Now throw in the blatantly corrupt picks of the Trump administration, where cabinet positions are favors to rich friends, or being given to billionaires with a direct interest in killing the government agency they are running - not to mention all the things he’s routinely done / will do to enrich himself / friends with tax payer dollars and it certainly seems like an oligarchy to me.
And just on a personal vibes level, living here, it feels like legislation to help normal people or solve normal people’s problems is almost non-existent. And when it does happen, it also conveniently throws a ton of money at the rich at the same time (see recent tax cuts, pandemic relief funds, etc.). Even something like the Affordable Care Act, which did a ton of net good things for this country, enriched a whole lot of private healthcare companies along the way rather than creating an actual public option with negotiated prices to keep government costs down.
Lol this post made me appreciate Lemmy so much.
There was a question on dead-it asking something about why the American middle class seemed to suffer so much since the mid20th century and it was full of obvious bots pointing to the positive but temporary effects of WW2. It took quite some scrolling before I saw any mention of the stagnation of real wages since then.
The US has been an oligarchy for some time. Act accordingly.
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy
Yes.
Really and truly, yes.
Oil company with an army…
Yes.
the US is run by billionaires and corporations.
you can live in peace as long as you don’t inconvenience them too much, and keep paying them
Stop dancing to their tune and you quickly discover how much freedom you really got
The only solution is to quit being boomer lol
