- cross-posted to:
- usa@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- usa@lemmy.ml
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I feel like my earlier thoughts are still just as relevant. I still think everyone needs to go out of their way to vote Harris, I also consider Harris’ Campaign to be entirely responsible for the outcome. Harris got a major boost when picking Walz, his progressive policies are very popular, but now has only waned once she started moving to the right to pick up ‘moderate’ republicans at the expense of her base. (Most Moderates still skew towards progressive policies)
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I feel like you have to understand the circumstances of those affected most by this genocide to understand. It’s easy to be logical and vote Harris as she is the least worse option, but that’s harder to do when directly affected. I consider the blame to be entirely on the Democratic Administration and Harris’ Campaign Strategy. They have had every opportunity to change course, and them deciding not to may very well cost them the election. I will not blame anti-genocide voters, especially those who are directly affected and have lost loved ones.
I’m still voting for Harris, on the basis that change from public pressure is far more unlikely under Trump.
The rhetoric coming out of the White House, when it has been focused on peace or restraint, rather than continuous war, has been undercut at every turn by its actions. The constant supply of weapons — $17.9 billion of bullets, bombs, shells, and other military aid in the past year — has allowed Israel to keep waging its war on Gaza, and in recent weeks, expand that war to Lebanon and threaten to escalate its conflict with Iran. Despite documentation of U.S. weapons being used in probable war crimes, and credible allegations that Israel is committing genocide in its war on Gaza, the bombs have continued to flow.
https://theintercept.com/2024/10/09/white-house-oct-7-israel-war-gaza/
Here you can track the rhetoric and actions of the Biden Administration month by month. The US has been supplying the weapons used for Israel’s genocide unconditionally for a year. Against international law, against domestic law, against the will of the majority of the population, and all with US taxpayer money. This is pro-genocide foreign policy.
Harris, instead of breaking from Biden on this issue, has not deviated. She has repeatedly ignored the voices of Palestinian Americans, Arab Americans, and Muslim Americans on this issue. These people are directly affected, they have friends and family in Palestine and Lebanon that have been killed by Israel. She has not only taken their votes for granted, but has offered no concessions and ignored their voices. People are angry at Biden and Harris for this. They desperately want change, but they don’t see that from the Democratic administration.
Despite Trump’s horrendous track record, he has gained in their support solely because of how Harris has campaigned. It’s not logical, but it’s hard to be when directly affected by the actions of the current administration and no prospect for change. Advocating them to vote for the ‘lesser evil’ doesn’t work when the ‘lesser evil’ is directly responsible for the deaths of their loved ones. Trump successfully framed himself as a Dove and Hillary as a warmonger in 2016. He’s using that same tactic now. It would be a completely unsuccessful framing if Harris pivoted to Arms Embargo or Conditional Aid, but that has not happened.
Breaking from Biden would be a major boost in voter output.
Quote
Our first matchup tested a Democrat and a Republican who “both agree with Israel’s current approach to the conflict in Gaza”. In this case, the generic candidates tied 44–44. The second matchup saw the same Republican facing a Democrat supporting “an immediate ceasefire and a halt of military aid and arms sales to Israel”. Interestingly, the Democrat led 49–43, with Independents and 2020 non-voters driving the bulk of this shift.
- Split Ticket (July 2024)
Quotes
In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.
- New Poll Suggests Gaza Ceasefire and Arms Embargo Would Help Dems with Swing State Voters (Full YouGov Report) (May 2024)
Quotes
- Data For Progress Poll (May 2024)
Quotes
Quotes
Majorities of Democrats (67%) and Independents (55%) believe the US should either end support for Israel’s war effort or make that support conditional on a ceasefire. Only 8% of Democrats but 42% of Republicans think the US must support Israel unconditionally.
Republicans and Independents most often point to immigration as one of Biden’s top foreign policy failures. Democrats most often select the US response to the war in Gaza.
I love how everyone is blaming the voters for agonizing over this decision and not Harris for supporting a genocide.
You’re a single issue voter? That’s kinda silly imo
I’m not but I’m more pissed at Kamala for not being against a genocide than I am for single-issue voters, when that single issue is genocide. And being a genocide apologist is more silly imo
Single issue voters damage democracy.
Eh, not always. We’re getting a lot of white women voters who previously voted for Trump thanks to abortion, for example. I wouldn’t judge voters for voting for what they care about. The leaders should owe the voters, not the other way around.
A system which necessitates or otherwise helps create single-issue voting damages democracy*
Why does Trump always get a pass?
It’s like everyone against him has to be an utter saint, and one wrong move? Welp, voting for Trump, I guess.
And yes, strategically… this makes no sense for anyone who cares about what’s happening in Israel.
It’s a fake argument. They were always voting for Trump. I have a relative that said Biden was too old… She’s still voting for Trump. These people are wrong in the head.
Saint? Saint?! Do you understand what you’re saying right now? The Harris campaign has repeatedly refused to even engage with Arab voters, let alone address their concerns about their friends and family being murdered. To Arab American voters and organizations who have been thoroughly ignored and excluded by the Harris campaign, yeah fuck that of course they’re not voting for her.
Also the democratic party has been in power, enabling the genocide for over a year.
That genocide has been going on for more than an adminstration though.
So we’re supporting an ongoing genocide because… the sunk cost fallacy?
Oof.
No, the US is supporting the genocide to continue the instability of the middle east to easily get resources out of it.
Are you gonna act like our continued reliance on fossil fuels isn’t also largely due to the sunk cost fallacy?
I don’t understand your question.
Oh so it’s only an important issue for you when it’s convenient, huh? Where’s your genocide comments about Ukraine? What’s happening there is also a genocide, yet the only comments I hear from your ilk is about the Middle East.
The situations in Palestine and Ukraine are markedly different.
Ukraine has received immense support from Western nations since the start of the Russian invasion, i.e., in support of the defense of Ukraine. The democractic party has been in power since the beginning of that conflict as well.
Western nations have been giving support to the standing army of the defending nation, who are facing a professional army.
Palestine has been under seige from the beneficiary of Western support, i.e., in support of the offense of Palestine.
Western nations have given support to the standing army of the offensive nation, who are facing an insurgency who lack the personnel, training, and support systems of a modern professional army.
The civilian death counts in Palestine have been staggering. Over 44,000 civilians have been killed in Palestine in a little over a year. In Ukraine, over 11,000 civillians have been killed, despite the Russian invasion occuring in February of 2022, 2 years and 9 months ago.
The distinctions between the two situations are apparent, which is why people are being more vocal about Palestine.
I would say nothing about either of the conflicts has been convenient for most people, but both matters are important, albeit for different reasons.
Also, on a personal note, ilk? I didn’t realize we were in the Hog’s Head.
“Harris does nothing for me, so I’ll vote for the guy who’ll have me killed.” Makes perfect sense.
Okay I’ll just say: Y’all deserve Trump. Seriously. If this community is even remotely representative of politically active democrats then y’all had it coming. Why is it that when I’m representing a viewpoint that’s not considered here everyone’s kneejerk reaction is to dismiss that viewpoint and shoot the messenger? No matter how you feel about it the fact that there are people who think that and the fact that they have valid reasons for thinking that remains. Arguing with me about their opinions changes nothing, and neither does mocking them.
Some of us attempt to take reality on reality’s terms, rather than pretend we have national ranked choice voting. The only signal people are sending by voting for a third-party presidential candidate is that they are easily fooled into voting against their own interests. Feel free to organize for your preferred alternative during primaries and local elections, and know that the Republican party is not going implement RCV or give one single fuck about Netanyahu continuing his genocide.
Guess what, whatever country you live in will ABSOLUTELY be impacted if Trump becomes president. Unless you’re in Russia, Iran, or N Korea, it’ll most likely be a negative impact.
It’s amazing what lengths you’ll go to to make apologia for ushering in fascism.
Sigh Do you understand how condescending you’re being right now? I got zero sympathy for y’all if Trump loses. With this attitude you’re doing it to yourselves. By the way you should read this. It’s just a Lemmy comment, but it summarizes what I wanna say to you and people who act like you better than I can myself.
Sigh Do you understand how condescending you’re being right now?
Oh, I’m so sorry for condescending to people who think it’s no big deal if people like me are thrown into a camp and murdered for literally no gain, material or moral, for them, because it makes their privileged asses feel smug about how pure they are, or some bullshit.
Well, put yourself in their shoes, and ask yourself why the fuck you would care what happens then? If your family is going to be genocided either way, and one party is going to be worse, but the end result is the same… Why do you care? Your allies don’t care, so why should you?
“It’s going to be worse, but also the same; and why would you care about literally anyone else?”
Like I said. It’s like calling for LGBT folk to usher in Bush Jr. because Al Gore isn’t LGBT-friendly enough. But hey, fuck everyone else and yourselves, right? It’s about that feeling of purity you get when filling out your ballot, right?
Yeah I got nothing else to say. If you think that makes you a guardian of democracy or whatever instead of a bootlicker, then go ahead. I’m not American either way so I’ll be watching with popcorn.
No shit you’re not American. You just want the US to collapse with someone like Trump becoming President. Fuck off with your nonsense.
Yeah I got nothing else to say. If you think that makes you a guardian of democracy or whatever instead of a bootlicker, then go ahead. I’m not American either way so I’ll be watching with popcorn.
“Ha ha good thing America doesn’t affect the rest of the world, and who cares about American minorities getting genocided anyway?”
Do you lot even try anymore?
Who wants to vote swap with me? I’ll write in Refaat Alareer if someone votes Kamala in a swing state. I’m in California so don’t tell me I’d be wasting my vote.
No one is really checking where and how people are operating from for those nuances to come out.
Judging from the points being made here in this thread, clearly there was little reading of the article to begin with.
Even article headline uses ‘Arab-American’ and ‘Pro-palestinian’ interchangeably. The perfect level of wrong that creates a bunch of uncertainty and confusion.
If they vote Trump, then I’ll be secretly clamoring for them to be deported out of America.
It’s possible to decry someone’s choices without wishing for more fascism, believe it or not.
Louder. You need to hear it.
Usually you wait until someone disagrees with you in the slightest amount to call them a genocide-loving centrist.
In the past, when I said that Biden needed to stop supporting genocide, he was one of the loudest voices calling me a trump supporting russian for saying it. So yeah, he should say it louder. You need to hear it too.
Certainly another strawman, since you only ever behave disingenuously. I’m sure they called you a MAGA propagandist based on your trolling rather than the lies you tell, “I’m only against genocide and I have done nothing else wrong whatsoever.”
But you aren’t even against genocide, are you? That is why you are on here doing your damnedest to troll for Donald every day, you’d like to see more.
Seems he needs to say it even louder. It’s not getting through.
Per Rule 1, do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
What a huge baseless assumption that you’ve reached there. I can tell you’re a huge troll, without telling me that you are. Go touch grass.
To be honest, America would be better off without people that would be stupid enough to do that.
Scratch a liberal, and a fascist bleeds.
Russian bot + you hate freedom + you hate democracy + stop asking questions and blindly vote for the Lib candidate :3
One of those two people is going to be elected. One of them will do nothing, and the other will actively make it worse.
Le bingo!
“I’ll vote to install a fascist government that will give Israel a blank check to destroy the Palestinians. That’ll show Harris!”
I feel like you can add this to the right side
Here’s my simple take. Vote Harris, then hold a massive pro Palestinian demonstration on inauguration day. Harris might be swayed, trump would just claim the demonstration was to celebrate him.
Those protesting will be called anti semites and ignored. They will be tear-gassed and every news channel will praise the cops for it.
You don’t end seventy years of genocide support in a week.
Bring enough of them…
There aren’t enough of them in the US.
Yep, you’re exactly right. That’s the best course of action.
Trump would also send the military in to break up the demonstration
Voting for Harris means voting for an adult administration and the continuance of Democracy. It is always possible to have a grown up conversation with adults who are sane and respect the right of the people to speak out, demonstrate and get their members of congress to act better. . A vote for trump will be the end of American freedom. That administration will be in it for the money from whoever pays. And people dying will not be a problem. If war & genocide makes them money, that’s what will happen. Your rights and freedoms end when you speak against that administration. Gaza will be leveled and made into beach condos. Lebanon will become part of Israel. Ukraine will be Russia. Taiwan & Hong Kong will be strictly ruled by China. . Your vote is not about making a “statement”. Your vote is about keeping the freedom you enjoy as an American. It’s about electing the candidate that is a qualified adult. Just because the candidate is not the perfect one for you, does not mean you are going to “show them” with your protest vote for the other party. Especially when the other party has blatantly shown you that they don’t actually care about Americans, and they will turn our own military on us in retaliation. 100 years ago Germans had no idea that they would die in camps. Be tortured, raped, or be subjected to horrific medical experiments. But it happened. . It’s 2024, and 1 candidate is running on a platform that helps Americans and fosters a much better future that we have had. And 1 candidate just had a rally at Madison Square Garden in support of his idol. The idol that the entire world knows as the evil who created those concentration camps. . Sadly, it really is about Freedom & Democracy. All Americans need to think it through. Let’s just hope you don’t regret your decision.
But I was told no one would ever consider letting Trump win and that it was just Very Concerned People™ voicing their concerns, not an attempt to throw the election to literal fascists???
In her view, it’s not her personal responsibility to stop Trump; it’s Harris’s and the Democrats’. And if Trump has another go at the presidency, then it’s only the Democrats to blame, not the voters who defected. Choosing to sit out or vote third party is a way to remind the major parties that they aren’t doing enough.
God I love it when people treat voting as a spiritual responsibility and not a matter of being entrusted with political power, really makes me feel great about the state of civic education in this fucking country.
And if Trump has another go at the presidency, then it’s only the Democrats to blame, not the voters who defected.
This is honestly the worst part of this whole thing, because if it happens, they won’t even have a come to Jesus “Wow, maybe I shouldn’t have done that” moment that might influence their actions in the future - instead it will just galvanize them against the party that they are ideologically closest to.
It would be like if LGBT folk in 2000 said Gore wasn’t LGBT-friendly enough, so they were fine with Bush winning.
Do they have legitimate complaints? Yes. Does that justify ushering in someone who will be worse for literally everyone? Fuck no.
I’ve literally seen people make that argument against Kamala. Apparently she’s not LGBTQ friendly enough 🙄
While also conveniently ignoring that Republicans are the ones blocking any progress.
It is infuriating.
With the massive middle finger Harris has been giving Arabs since the start of her campaign, how the fuck are you surprised?
I’m not at all surprised. I guess the sarcasm in the first line wasn’t thick enough for some people to parse. This is exactly what I expected from day 1 of this style of agitation, no matter how many times people swore up and down that it definitely wasn’t about ushering in a fascist dictatorship via Trump, just ‘expressing’ a desire for policy change.
Turns out it was all bad faith bullshit, just like so many of us recognized even at the time. Quelle surprise.
With the attitude of democrats (the term blueMAGA is looking more appealing by the second) this election I think I know why people vote Republican. The sheer condescension and speed of rejecting any idea you don’t agree with is astounding and frustrating. You cry about everyone who doesn’t agree with you wanting to usher in a fascist dictatorship; I’ll be watching while you lose Michigan (and maybe one other state) to the groupthink.
If people on the internet made you so upset you decide to vote for openly fascist Repubs to spite them, you had zero principles in the first place. You are and have always been a MAGA. (But of course everyone could tell from your pretending “Blue MAGA” is a thing.)
I’m not American so I’m not voting either way. Also I wasn’t saying I’d vote Republican or condoning it, but the sheer condescension I saw in that exchange makes it more believable. I also didn’t say I was voting republican in any part of my comment so I’m curious where you got that from.
You have the absolute dumbest reasoning. The simple use of Blue MAGA already paints you as a fool.
I’m sure whatever country your from is dealing with its own alt-right problem, but judging by your comments, you’re probably fully in support of that.
You see what Donald is saying he will do and what Donald’s voters are writing online, then you see attitude you don’t like from Harris voters online. You still are willing to write that it’s believable people would vote for Donald despite the former because of the latter. Looks like we’re pretty lucky you’re not able to vote.
It is believable. I mean it’s happening, and denying that this sort of attitude isn’t part of the reason is denying reality. I never said it’s rational, because it isn’t, but it’s a thing and it’s partially leftists not understanding that that got you (and us since your elections affect everyone) into this situation to begin with.
You cry about everyone who doesn’t agree with you wanting to usher in a fascist dictatorship;
With the attitude of democrats (the term blueMAGA is looking more appealing by the second) this election I think I know why people vote Republican.
Mask off, really just astounding.
Please stope writing and go away. Your opinions are bad and you should feel bad. The rest of us are willing to sacrifice a limb to save the patient. None of us enjoy it or are glad to have to make that choice, but WE HAVE TO SAVE THE PATIENT YOU JACKBOOTED DIMWIT.
First, I’m not sure if you realize how dehumanizing that sounds. Second, well sorry the limb being cut doesn’t quite like it. Third, reported for incivility.
You guys are happy to do it when you’re not the limb.
How does the consequence of the entire patient DYING escape your understanding?
It’s not like Biden or Harris could’ve done a thing without being labeled a bunch of incompetent flip-floppers.
Imagine Trump saying they took too long, and the blood is on their hands, and he’d never do such a thing. But we all know how he handles stuff - on a golf course
If I actually loved someone and understood that I was going to throw them into
A) a horrendous situation, or
B) a mildly less horrendous situation with a very real yet depressingly tiny chance of ending it,
and understood that if I tried choosing a third option I would end up with A…I would choose B.
In the better situation, the understanding is not there, and this video is probably what’s missing: https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo
If they have truly internalized that and still insist on defaulting to A by means of refusing the choice and going third party, then they care more about flipping off Democrats than helping Palestinians, with is real ugly.
It’s very weird that in a story involving a genocide, nerdy arcane voting mechanics are the main character. Not as in “the most important”, but as in “the unassuming hinge on which the nasty stuff turns”.
