Are mirrors really a good test of self awareness?
Aren’t they just testing the understanding of reflections?
Self awareness in regards of mirrors is that the subject realises that the object in the mirror is actually themself.
It’s the counter scenario I’m questioning.
Does not recognising oneself in a mirror really imply that the subject is NOT self aware?
If I have difficulty recognising my projected shadow with a 5s delay. Am I still self aware?
Does not recognising oneself in a mirror really imply that the subject is NOT self aware?
No, and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone argue otherwise. However, we generally assume animals lack self-awareness unless we have a good reason to do otherwise.
I’ve always found that assumption very weird and figure it’s rooted in human exceptionalism. Like we must be super special somehow. The more natural assumption to me seems that other animals, given their similar biological makeup, think rather similarly to humans.
It’s actually just the null hypothesis. We don’t assume rocks, trees, cars, flowers, stars, or soil are sapient either. It’s normal, correct, and good to not assume things with 0 evidence. Furthermore, I see a bunch of people who both insist that animals are self-aware and that LLMs definitely aren’t self aware, insisting they can’t be, despite the fact that they are literally capable of telling you that they are. (Note: I’m not trying to argue that AI are sapient.) This tells me that people who argue that animals are self-aware in general are speaking about what they’d like to be true rather than a reasonable belief.
That just depends on what you consider the default state to be. Claiming that humans have self awareness, but other animals do not, implies a relationship between species and capability for self awareness. The null hypothesis would imply a lack thereof.
It would be correct and good to acknowledge that we simply don’t know whether a given species is self-aware unless evidence points to one or the other direction. And that is very relevant for moral philosophy.
You’ve clearly misunderstood, and don’t know what the null hypothesis is. In scientific philosophy, (that is, the philosophical foundation of science, not philosophy that uses science) “overcoming the null hypothesis” or “rejecting the null hypothesis” means you have enough evidence to say that you know something. Furthermore, there is a difference between saying “I don’t believe that is the case” and saying “I believe that is not the case.” One is a declaration of ignorance, and the other is declaration of certainty. They could infact not be more different from an epistemic standpoint. Also, for the purposes of this discussion, whether I believe humans have self-awareness isn’t actually relevant; we are discussing the justification for believing that animals have self-awareness. Furthermore, there’s no such thing as a “default state” and being part of the same clade or other constructed set as a sophont strikes me as a generally utterly irrelevant factor in determining whether an entity is itself self-aware baring some evidence that there is a relation conveyed by being in that set that itself indicates self-awareness.
TLDR: your argument is bad, and you should educate yourself in philosophy. Particularly epistemology and logic.
That’s fair. My cat has no reaction to himself in a mirror but we know cats can react in a mirror test.
Does he lack self awareness or not?
all animals are waaay more aware than we realize (or can bear to realize), but it’s going to take forever to officially prove because we have to start from the place of them needing to prove that they:
may also have an internal awareness of their own bodies
My dog is very aware that if his self isn’t given belly scratches by me at any given time, he has to start scratching at me with his paw until I do.
He’s gotten me in the eye like three times. Little bastard. He’s lucky he’s so cute.
all animals are waaay more aware than we realize
All animals? That’s a very big claim, do you have any supporting evidence?
This is gonna be unpopular but it’s kinda hard to hop on that train when most animals fight their own reflection in a mirror. It’s even like half and half for dogs
to be fair, mirrors are pretty crazy and don’t typically appear as clearly in nature with the exception of water.
Whether a dog recognizes its reflection or not doesn’t really rule out that they’re not self aware
My friend’s dog was extremely self aware, more than most dogs I would say (not an expert), but would still try and eat its own poop.
Some humans are into that as well tho
The line between fetish and mental illness can sometimes be blurry. Of course, that means some folks are just one sex worker shitting on their face away from mental wellness.
I fully agree with you. We try to prove animals have deep self awareness by human standards. The thing is that animals don’t think like humans do, so it’s difficult to prove it but I’m very sure most of them are self-aware
When my cat looks at her reflection and makes noises at the “other cat” on the other side if the mirror, I’m pretty sure she’s not aware of how she looks like
But my cat completely ignores his reflection, but would never ignore another cat
Cats rely more on their acute hearing to be aware of who is in the room. I’m sure if you play a cat video on TV it will get a reaction
That isn’t true for all cats though, many are fully aware they’re seeing themselves. As with humans, individuals of any other species have different levels of intelligence.
“Lookin’ big today. Might start a fight.”
“Mmm…look at that profile! This is why I don’t skip fin day!”
“Some humans?” I want to know more about that part.
They vote for Trump.
This made me LOL so hard
Aside from it recognizing its own reflection, don’t tons of animals square off before fighting? White tailed deer are dumb as fuck but two bucks will dance around before sparing to size up the opponent I’ve had cichlids that do the same kind of shit when they’re territorial. Sizing up the other fish before fighting for the best chill spot in the tank.
I kiss myself in the mirror before attacking people too, but I’m saying goodbye, not analyzing my capacity to kick ass.
Anyone who has owned an African cichlid can tell you that pet fish can have a big personality. Used to have one that loved making nests in the gravel, and would spit little rocks at the glass to get your attention. He’d also spit water if the tank top was open. He would do little dances when you’d talk to him
