Fear Mongering About Range Anxiety Has To Stop — CT Governor Calls Out EV Opponents::Several state governors are fighting fear mongering as they attempt to reduce transportation emissions in their states.
I drove half way across the country and back last summer in my EV and it was great, except for a couple of the stops being in shady locations.
EV rest stops still have a little ways to go to becoming more convenient, but there is no range issue.
As a EV owner I don’t worry about range that much but I’m constantly infuriated by the shitty charging experience. Charging at home is great but road trips are a constant pain in the ass. Let’s face it, most people are not interested in switching to EV at all find an excuse until ICE cars are banned (I’m looking at you people with two family cars and private garage). You want to convince the people actually thinking about it? Make charging work.
The experience is pretty fine at the Tesla superchargers
Yes but we all know what the issues with Tesla are.
I have to disagree, people like you described are not aware of the charging infrastructure app ridden sign up and reliability bullshit. Fixing that isn’t going to make Karen who’s never owned an EV buy one.
Your suggestion will only help people who already own an EV and understand the struggle.
I’m saying that Karen will not even consider EV because insert default excuse. People that do consider EVs will investigate the state of the infrastructure a bit and decide to wait. Play store and other pages are full of reviews. Also, anyone riding with me can see it’s state. You don’t have to own an EV to be aware of the issues.
Switching to an EV is not “free”. You have to do some research, learn some new things and gain a bit of experience. Some people (for example the elderly but also stupid people) will have real issues adapting to new infrastructure. Even more people are simply to lazy to bother, will always see the effort required to switch to an EV as completely unnecessary and will complain loudly when forced to do it. The best option would be probably to wait for “EV first” generations of drivers to simply replace the current ones but we don’t have time for it. Other option would be to make the switch completely painless (imagine having a charging plug right next to the gasoline dispenser on every gas station, simply choose from diesel, gas or electric) but we’re currently very very far away from this dream. So yeah, the only option is to force people slowly to make the effort and at the same time work on making it easy enough so they don’t revolt.
As someone who has been driving an RV for several years now, it really is nuts hearing people on the internet constantly repeat the same three or four stupid talking points that people with first hand experience have been rebutting for the better part of a decade at this point.
Universal_healthcare has entered the chat.
Serious Question: Why can’t we just have towable generators so EVs can go from an electric car to a Plugin Hybrid for road trips?
Generators aren’t very expensive relatively speaking.
Yet I’ve never heard not seen this anywhere, and seems like a very easy solution to range anxiety.
Probably be more efficient to just have a towable battery you charge ahead of time.
I think it’s because someone who takes enough Road trips to use something like that would properly just get a regular plug in hybrid. That being said, this might be coming soon for ev trucks actually. The dodge ram ev is going to have a gas powered range extender, and I believe ford has patented a bed mounted version for its ev truck.
I was among those worrying about range until I spent 5 minutes thinking about what I actually do on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.
We’d still have my wife’s ICE van, we both work from home, and 99% of the time my work-related travel is local (within 5 miles). My wife’s van can pull the camper for our camping trips, or for our longer drives.
I have no good reason not to get an EV for my next car.
Repairability is a big one for reasons not to get a new ev for me
Why would you think EVs are not repairable?
Because third party repairs are often unavailable or void the warranty. Cars are becoming a subscription service to dealerships.
Because third party repairs are often unavailable or void the warranty
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No they don’t. Cars have long since had regulations allowing for third party repairs.
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Why would you take to a third party if you’re under warranty?
Cars are becoming a subscription service to dealerships.
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What kind of subscription allows you to repair the car?
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This is not exclusive to EVs.
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Because they are relatively new in the automotive world. I can take my '08 CRV to just about any auto parts store in America and get just about any part I need (or take it to about any third party repair shop with the same results). Good luck doing that with most EVs especially Teslas. Tesla is the most egregious example as they are anti right to repair and have seemed to take a page out of Apple’s book as far as locking down their supply chain for parts.
Hopefully this will get better with time as third party shops have time to acclimate themselves and their technicians to EV architecture, and EV-specific parts become more available. Though the latter I feel is highly dependent on manufacturers not trying to turn EVs into phones in terms of repairability/serviceability.
In the meantime, as an average Joe without a lot of money, I really like the idea of keeping my relatively low cost older ICE vehicles because if shit hits the fan, if I can’t fix it relatively cheaply, there will likely be multiple shops that can without it costing me an arm and a leg and/or taking weeks or months to wait on the manufacturer to supply the parts needed.
I can take my '08 CRV to just about any auto parts store in America and get just about any part I need
Again, why would you think EVs are different?
Hopefully this will get better with time as third party shops have time to acclimate themselves and their technicians to EV architecture
Third party shops are not manufacturing parts.
If your wanna talk about Teslas, I’ll agree. If you wanna talk about “new cars” I’ll agree again. But none of this is exclusive specifically to EVs.
I would actually consider if you actually need 2 cars at all given your description of the situation. If we’re worried about the environment flat getting rid of a car is a bigger win than an EV.
If a car sits in the driveway 99% of the year, it’s not hurting the environment for 99% of its existence. If they continue to use it as a daily driver, I agree with you. But keeping a second vehicle for situations where it is specifically suited isn’t really that big a problem.
Not driving a car for long periods of time is bad for the car. That means that they would replace it after a few years, and still have two cars, instead of keeping just the one. It takes a lot of resources to build a car, even more so for EVs.
Well, it’s the build cost for a new car vs not building that car in terms of the environment. I guess buying a used car would alleviate that, but at some point having another car built is worse than not having it built.
I’ve very seriously considered that. Right now, we could probably go down to one car without issue. We have two reasons why I’d like to maintain a second, though. We have young kids, and we are already starting to run them around to different places at the same time. We’re looking to move soon, and the idea is to move outside of town where we have more room. That would make basically every drive longer, which would increase the likelihood of needing a second vehicle.
Either way, an EV should be fine. Depending on cost, I might stick with a small, used ICE this time, because I don’t need much. But I’m not at that point quite yet, so maybe things will change by the time I’m ready.
How about trains? Americans are too used to their cars for those long-range trips. Make them unnecessary. Build out the infrastructure. Have your car for local trips, switch to trains for anything else.
Ideally I’d like trains for local trips and high speed rail for longer distances. I’d prefer to not own or use a car at all but most cities would have to be torn down and rebuilt to achieve this.
Same, but tearing down and rebuilding cities is a feature, not a bug. Well, except for the carbon emissions involved in doing that.
How about lithium fires burning down peoples houses then?
This article doesn’t really touch on the biggest issue of getting into an EV - the price tag. I mean, $26k to get into an entry-level model? I paid $11k for my SUV, and the only reason I could afford that was due to a pay-out from the company that totaled my previous vehicle. Show me a used EV with towing and storage capacity more in the range of $6k that I can expect to drive for twenty years with basic maintenance and you might get me interested.
Beyond that, they claim that an EV is cheaper to maintain over the years? OK I’ve been driving my used SUV for 15 years now and I’ve spent less than a grand on replacing parts (not including stuff like tires that are going to be replaced on any vehicle). My previous vehicle was driven for 24 years and cost even less to maintain because it didn’t have 4WD. It looks like within these time periods I would have expected to replace EV batteries several times (most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years), and how much would that have cost? I understand that most people can’t be bothered to learn how to perform even the most basic maintenance tasks and believe that you need to buy a new car every 5 years, but I would like to see realistic maintenance estimates for those of us who don’t treat our vehicles like a piece of disposable tupperware.
Just adding to that, what required maintenance can you do on an EV?
I can take care of most of the basics like fluid and brake pad changes on my IC car. On an EV tyres are a given, but is there specialised maintenance work that I can’t do myself?
Seems like at the very least it would require a different set of tools and knowledge. I can do pretty much everything down to completely tearing down and rebuilding an engine so replacing ball joints or suspension A-frames is easy for me, but I expect that sort of thing to be outside of most people’s knowledge. Even so, there’s quite a lot that anybody can do to maintain their current vehicle without needing any special knowledge they can’t learn in five minutes. What can we do ourselves on an EV to keep the batteries and motor in good running condition, and how would we even know that there’s a fault that needs addressed? I can’t imagine a cheap EV having a full range of sensors installed, and yet on an ICE you can easily hear or feel when something isn’t right with the engine.
What can we do ourselves on an EV to keep the batteries and motor in good running condition
Read the user manual that comes with your car, it explains that in great detail. There’s practically no maintenance to be done, anyway
I can’t imagine a cheap EV having a full range of sensors installed
They don’t really need them like ICE do. OBDII gives all the details on your battery that you could possibly want, there are cheapo sensors on the like 2 other failable parts
There’s simply a lot LESS to go wrong on an EV, maintenance is very different once you get one
That’s good to hear! I keep watching how things are progressing, some day we’ll all make the switch but at the moment I still need the capacity of an SUV to carry construction materials and the ability to tow my 20’ trailer with loads up to 6000 pounds. Somebody once told me that there’s no reason to own a personal vehicle when I can just ride a bicycle or take the bus everywhere, it took me awhile to stop laughing.
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. In regards to used EVs for 6k, they’re all over the place. Just look for Nissan leafs or Priuses.
most estimates put battery lifetime between 8-15 years
That’s until it’s at like 85-95% capacity. Ev batteries will last for decades no problem. And if you had that little maintenance on your car then you’re just not taking care of it. Oil literally would cost over a thousand dollars just by itself, so if you’re not replacing the oil you’re irreparably damaging your vehicle. (12k miles a year, replace minimum every 6k miles unless you’ve done an oil test and have a custom timeline, $30-50 each time, so $100 a year minimum on just one thing).
I’m sorry but your numbers just outright do not add up at all. You clearly either abused your car and actually didn’t maintain it, or you maintained it and have no clue the true cost.
The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I’ve read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don’t have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.
I’ve been using full synthetic in my SUV, it’s good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.
And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don’t remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife’s car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there’s a few other things I didn’t add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?
Maybe you are lucky with your car, and know how to maintain yourself. We spent already 3000$ on repairs on our 2010 car and we have it for only 5 years. And there is more to be done (dampers, belts, corrosion on exhaust…). Even with knowledge and equipment (which I do not have) engines are complicated to maintain, at least here in europe with our anti pollution regulations, older motors are more robust but are now banned from cities. EV is a good solution for city/suburbs people with small range needs as less maintainance is needed. Better solution is bike and trains…
The estimates I saw for battery life were talking about replacement time, not just ranging to a minimal capacity. Even discussions I’ve read on reddit have basically had most people stating that if you buy a used EV the batteries would likely need replaced. I don’t have anything to go on for realistic expectations except the statements from people who have owned an EV.
That’s because people are obsessed with long ranges. You don’t need long range. EVs last plenty fine, even with reduced distance. Undecided with Matt Ferrell has covered this a lot.
I’ve been using full synthetic in my SUV, it’s good for 20k miles or more so I replace it every couple years at a cost of around $60. So around $450 so far? I changed oil in my old car a little less frequently with plain dino oil, so that was maybe $400 through a lifetime of around 300k miles.
You’re damaging your car. You should be changing your oil at minimum every 6k miles. 20k is ridiculous. 6k is the number for full synthetic, 3-4k is for non synthetic. Project farm covers this and does a ton of tests to show you why.
And sure, there are minor costs like replacing the spark plugs every decade, I spent $80 on a new power steering pump for the SUV and I need to pick up a new coolant thermostat soon. I don’t remember if I replaced the belt on my truck or my wife’s car, and they get new batteries every 5+ years as needed. Oh and I had to replace the transmission on the old car, that cost all of $250 to pick up from a junk yard. So yeah, there’s a few other things I didn’t add in. Now what kind of maintenance has to be done on an EV, and what kind of prices are you looking at for replacement parts?
$0 dollars. Windshield washer fluid is all I’ve had to touch. On our towing truck I had to replace a gas line from gas destroying the line. Gas vehicles are soooo much more expensive in every single way. There’s a ton of studies on this dude.
One of our friends we visit on a regular basis is a 90-minute drive away (a little over 100 miles each way), and we typically stay for about 4 hours before heading home. Anything outside of town is going to be at least a 45-minute drive each way and when we go into Denver we’re talking over an hour. And since I live only six miles away from the mountains we tend to drive around up there quite a lot which can easily lead to a 2-3 hour drive on some pretty substantial grades. But let’s just pretend for a moment that I don’t care about range, and I grab the only used EV I see within my range – a Nissan Leaf with a listed range of 84 miles. That means most mountain trips are out because Estes Park is the only place that might have a charging station. But what about visiting our friends? If I fully charge the EV at home before we leave, I’ll still have to stop at least twice during the trip to fully recharge. Are we talking about the addition of a few minutes to my trip, or are we looking at adding hours to an already long drive? Range matters when you live in an area where everything is spread out.
On the other hand, my wife rarely drives her car outside of town and is never used for long trips – so THAT is something we have discussed replacing with an EV when the time comes and the prices are more reasonable.
You DO understand that some synthetic oils are actually made to take you more than 6000 miles, right? Take a look at Amsoil, many people have tested it and sent their oil to labs for testing. This stuff stands up to real-world testing. As far as concerns about permanent damage – well I’ve put 120k miles on this vehicle so far and it still purrs along without any sign of trouble. And seriously, nearly 300k on my previous V8 engine (it had 106k when I bought it and I rolled the odometer twice before selling it) and it was only just starting to blow some white smoke when I first started it up. That’s with plain old Valvoline dino oil for most of its life although I did upgrade to the high-mileage synthetic blend in probably the last 100k, and only doing oil changes about every 20-25k. And that thing was a racing engine, I could do 70mph in first gear, so I never treated it lightly. Sorry you’ve had such bad luck, but I’ll stand by what has worked for me.
So yeah, there’s fewer moving parts on an EV, and fewer things that can break down. I can still drive my ICE for massively less money. Just looking at the used market in my area, anything large enough that I would even consider driving (because I won’t risk my wife’s life in a damn subcompact car) start at over $30k, and we won’t even talk about Teslas. If you’re going to make an honest comparison of maintenance costs (suspension parts wear out on every vehicle, but ICE parts are of course not directly relatable to EV engine parts) I can easily buy a used vehicle and drive it for years without even approaching half the cost of a used EV.
Even the price to gas up versus recharging is greatly debated. Sure you can get some great rates if you always charge up from home and your local power company offers off-peak subsidies, but for me even driving to work mean recharging during the day to get back home, and those charging stations have a premium price. Just checking google for research in the last couple years, the articles are pretty evenly split over which one is cheaper, but many of those were comparing the best electric prices charging at home to some of the worst gasoline prices at $4/gallon. Unless you already have a full solar installation on your house, comparing apples to apples in refueling costs doesn’t seem to show any clear advantage in either direction, so it’s not like driving an EV is going to “pay for itself”… at least not yet.
I’m not throwing all of this out here to try and suggest that EVs are a terrible idea and nobody should ever consider them. For most people who make short trips and drive in reasonably flat areas, I’m sure they are getting past the point of status symbol and are starting to become a great solution. But for people like me who regularly travel long distances, needs to carry construction materials or tow heavy trailers for various projects, and doesn’t mind doing the occasional repair at home, an EV is still an insanely expensive prospect. I mean $30k is more than the total I have spent on all of my vehicles AND my wife’s vehicles combined in nearly 40 years. Yes I’m keeping an eye on things because EVs are definitely the way we are heading and the infrastructure is getting built up pretty quickly to support them, but for my own needs they are just not there yet.
You’re not going to get any ev that’s good at towing, so get that off your list right now. The problem is - like in my super long comment down below - It’s hard to sell people on go from 1 vehicle that does 100% of my use cases now to 1 vehicle that does 95% of my use cases. This is just inherently a hard sell.
What I do is I have an extra truck for towing, which I rarely need to use - but it’s not cheap to do this, and many people can’t or won’t. But even then, having a “good for commuting only” vehicle is an even harder sell. I know people who do this, but that can be hard to hit IMHO. While all you need and all you miss with towing is… towing, a “good commuter car” might well be something that is small, 2WD, and doesn’t really have cargo space or back seats. Many people however have young kids (need pretty large car seats), or want to take 3-4 people on trips, or want to go shopping for stuff and minimize the needed delivery fees, or have bad weather and want AWD/4WD. It’s easy to get a truck or SUV that does all of that AND towing, but it’s hard to get an economical EV that does all of that minus towing.
Are you comparing cost of used ICE Vs new EV?
I’d prefer to compare used to used, but looking around online at what’s available in my area, the cost of most used EVs appears to start around $15,000 for these tiny compact cars that would never be useful to me. The cheapest was a Nissan Leaf for $7500 with a listed range of 84 miles – hell we couldn’t even visit many of our friends in that distance! The more reasonable sized cars (at least judging by the pictures) like a Kia Niro or maybe a Nissan Ariya which have ranges over 200 miles start around $30,000 and go up very quickly from there. So yeah, even comparing used prices puts these vehicles way outside my price range.
You guys are allowed to leave work?
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Household transport is a fraction of a fraction of the states emissions. But hey that cost of living sure is going through the roof, better double the cost of cars to shift internal combustion to remote combustion.
Depending on the EV, the total cost of ownership is cheaper than a comparable ICE vehicle (due to fuel savings, and being mechanically simpler to maintain and repair). I’m pretty sure personal vehicles are the largest source of personal CO2 emissions, since it takes an EV 34kwh to travel 100 miles, and ICE vehicles are 4x less efficient. Pretty sure that would produce more CO2 than a typical household’s heating and cooling.
It means nothing.Unless you’re offering to help pay the difference?.
I’m not sure you understood what I wrote. EVs can pay their own difference. Depending on where you live (what your gasoline and electricity costs are), an EV can save $10,000+ in fuel over their lifespans, making some EVs cheaper than comparable ICE vehicles. I.E. you can get a new Chevy Bolt for $27k, then you’d save $10k on fuel over its lifetime. $17k is cheaper than a comparable car. I believe you’d also get a $7.5k tax credit.
Jesus christ you think everyone is on 6 figure salaries
I read the article and clicked through their own reporting on range anxiety: https://cleantechnica.com/2023/07/16/is-range-anxiety-really-worth-all-the-angst/
According to data from the US Department of Transportation, 95.1% of trips taken in personal vehicles are less than 31 miles; almost 60% of all trips are less than 6 miles. In total, the average US driver only covers about 37 miles per day.
it seems to me that this screams out for better shared transportation - If I’m going less than 6 miles, I’d much prefer an Uber or easy subway ride or the like to owning a car at all. However, that’s something government would actually have to fund and do something rather than just passing rules on to other people to make happen.
That minor rant aside - I still maintain that the 37 miles per day is a commute and going out to lunch. If we actually wanted to have people change habits in a really useful way - it’d be to start incentivising / mandating telework where possible - stop all the unnecessary car traffic of any kind. You know what’s more environmentally friendly than ZEV vehicles? No vehicle (use).
That all said - most people I know buy vehicles to solve as close to 100% of their needs, not 95.1% - because vehicles are so expensive. The range anxiety haven’t been about the daily commute for like a decade - even the 87 mile leaf did that fine and most anyone I’ve ever talked to was perfectly OK if they had the leaf JUST to drive to work and back in the summer / nice weather. Very few people buy a car like that though, because they need to get through bad weather or carry more stuff or people or tow or …
And then there’s the all american road trip. Roughly once a month I go 180 miles one way on a quick trip to see family. They don’t have a car charger setup anywhere. I’m not at all sure if they can run an extension cord out, but then I’m on slow charging, and I also drive around while I’m there (unless I asked to use their car for all trips). I’m usually there for a couple days and come back. I have to get gas on each trip. This is not in reality if I had a leaf. If I had a more expensive car it’s do-able, but I still would be anxious till there’s more “top up” points. I go by probably 20 gas stations I notice on the trip, and there’s probably 100+ more within 2-3 miles from the route I take. I know of one charging station.
They have an answer in the article
Plan your route: PlugShare and other apps allow you to determine where chargers are located along your intended route as well as details like the hours they’re open, the cost to charge, whether it’s a public or private facility, and user reviews. It reminds me of childhood trips we took when my parents used Trip Ticks from AAA to determine best roads and attractions. Being organized makes any trip more pleasant, and being aware of possible charging stops ahead creates a sense of calm in you and your passengers.
Yes - plan you trip around your car. I mean, sure, but harkening back to needing Trip Ticks like in the early 1990s isn’t exactly a “towards the future” sort of vibe. And they’re right - a lot of it is vibe.
Limit your use of air conditioning or heat when possible: So be uncomfortable… I never think about turning on aircon or heat in my ICE car. This is a stupid “fix a perceived problem” statement.
Plan errands to intersect with available chargers Again, live your life around your car - this just is absurd. If I’m planning errands around my transportation, I ought to be able to use public transport and get better returns for the hassle - but I can’t because our public transport is shit, and also it’s probably not feasible in the vast rural areas of the US.
Stay calm, breathe deeply: According to research in the Journal of Advanced Transportation, range voltage depends on a variety of factors, including emotional type, age, and driving experience, and these factors may influence how susceptible you are to range anxiety.
Yes, get some therapy and Xanax and you too can love the EV.
Ok, but ranting about the sheer stupidity and patronizing nature of the article around range anxiety over - back to the road trip. Many people like to drive to their vacations to save money, especially if they have 3+ people going and would have to also rent a car at the other end of a flight. My next trip is a 900 mile trip over 2 days. With ICE I literally just put it in my GPS and go - no issues because I can stop and get gas ANYWHERE. We’re just NOT THERE yet with chargers, and even with superchargers, we’re talking going from a 10 minute break to get gas, grab a snack and use the restroom to more like 30 minutes waiting for the car. I don’t have issues with planning lunch or dinner around that, IF I could be sure there was a super charger where it makes sense to break.
The thing that’s stupid is it’s not “range anxiety” really, I have to worry about getting gas and finding a gas station. We just have gas stations already built out and getting gas is a 5 minute process to get another 360+ miles of range. If the charging was close to that to add 360+ miles of range, no one would blink an eye, but instead, it’s 30 minutes to add maybe 100 miles of range - which leads to making trips take much longer in many cases. The other anxiety inducing thing is if you run out of gas, AAA can bring you 2 gallons to get you to a station. I haven’t heard about the equivalent for EVs yet.
The important thing is - talking down to people isn’t going to get them to listen to you. Telling people they shouldn’t worry about their yearly or more often road trips because normally they’re driving to work and back isn’t a great sales pitch really. If I have to rent an ICE car 2 times a year for a road trip, that’s at least $1,000 each time, which itself pays for a lot of gas, or 3 new car payments (for most people). It doesn’t make people think EVs are cheaper.
Me feeling this way is a problem, because I do think EVs are a good thing, and I really want one, but not for massively more than a direct replacement of my existing ICE car, and not if I have to also maintain an ICE car for trips. One car is cheaper than two to keep going no matter how frugal the second car is.
Modern EVs charge in less than 15 minutes so… it’s really not longer than a gas stop, at least not in any situation I’ve been in and I own two gas vehicles and an ev. Like I literally get 200+ miles of range in 15 minutes. Your numbers are just way way way off.
And what in the world are you talking about. 1000 to rent a car two times a year? Where the fuck are you renting from?
I’m sorry but you’re just really really really misinformed here. There are plenty of aaa charging services if you get stuck, but you’re not gonna get stuck cuz EVs are good about letting you know if you’re gonna be in trouble.
I don’t really want to spend the time to refute every point in your post, just seriously, go try renting a modem ev (non-American, American EVs are terrible)
I have to commute one way 250 kms with one settlement on the way (75 km from one end) for work. There are not many EVs now that I would be comfy making that trip right now (more so after the battery ages a few years, in winter etc.) but their are some. In some countries the range is fine, in cities the range is fine but where I am the range is the major limiting factor. Please don’t call market demands “fear mongering” just give me more range.
I don’t need any super acceleration or a top speed 2x the speed limit, I want range.
