I’ve run a small business for over 10 yeas. I use linux. I’m grateful to the community and I use FOSS where possible.
I have had some issues over the years, but have always been able to get around them (except CAD in 2013), but recently I’ve had issues with my government (UK). First they introduced ‘making tax digital’ and told me for years that I would have to buy windows only software (there was no legal option on linux until a few weeks before the deadline (https://www.comsci.co.uk/100PcVatFreeBridge saved the day). The UK Government didn’t create a free solution or any route to that as they don’t want the source to be open for making tax digital so accounting software companies have made a killing!
This week my internet banking stopped allowing payments, it no longer works in firefox (I’m guessing). On the telephone they asked me ‘what search engine I was using’* and advised to use google.
What is the best UK business bank to use if you use linux to run a small business? Do I have to use Chrom(e)ium? Does anyone else use linux for business admin? Is anyone (Freesoftware foundation, etc) thinking about the creeping legislative changes that make it literally illegal to use FOSS and linux?
I wanna be an ally, but its so tiring.
- browser ≠ search engine. Yes, I’m pedantic, at least I didn’t confuse them by saying ‘quant’ or ‘duck duck go’, OK!?
When you say it doesn’t work in Firefox, does it not work in Firefox or does it say it doesn’t work in Firefox? In the later case and sometimes in both, I have found that just changing the user agent string to something chrome based is sufficient to get it working again.
Damn, you got a lot of replies and no one said to just use paper forms.
Idk if the uk allows it still, it’d be surprising if it didn’t though.
Surprise! :D The project was called ‘making tax digital’ it was expressly to remove paper forms for VAT.
Also, please feel free to answer if you aren’t based in the UK, I assume this isn’t a UK only problem, but I’m based here.
I think what you can do is just get a separate computer running Windows for all your business stuff and business stuff only. I’d also recommend ALWAYS using a VPN on it if legally possible.
I went a step further and am paying an accountant to handle this mess, using my favourite libre email client to contact her. I know, it’s a privileged position.
That is exactly what he doesn’t want to do and why he is using Linux.
The point of getting a separate device is similar to using a VPN - to use proprietary and invasive software without getting the personal data stored on the main devices sent to third parties. The business device still can send some data (like WiFi connection info, approximate location and microphone recordings) but the personal data should be safe. It may not be a viable option for very high threat models though since Windows can have backdoors that the government might use to inject malware into all the devices connected to the same network.
I’m not worried about privacy, it’s a business not a person. If the government want to look through my business data, they just need to arrange an audit. I like good security, but am a small target.
It’s about free as in freedom.
That only works if the main reason someone uses Linux is personal privacy.
Aren’t we talking about privacy and freedom as the main concerns here?
They are major concerns, but they aren’t the only reasons people would use Linux, and also not everyone who uses Linux does it for these reasons. For example, while I care about them, my most important reason for using it is utility features such as my tiling WM.
Hmm I didn’t know the UK was THIS bad.
Bad? It’s a couple of decisions made by organisations or politicians who are ignorant of free software alternatives and open standards.
Certainly better than the US’s tax system, where you have to pay to file your taxes or at the least, have to spend a lot of your time working out complex tax submissions each year.
In the UK, your income tax is automatically paid by your employer when you earn it. Unless you’re self employed - or doing your own business accounts like OP, you don’t have to submit any tax information, ever.
Taxes are not the only things that matter, mister/miss. In the US you at least aren’t legally forced to use Windows and I’m not even talking about the fact that the US supports genocide. But who am I talking to? Americans are fully dead inside and won’t understand. There’s no way to revive them.
I’m not in the US - and who was talking about genocide? We’re talking about tax and it’s software here.
The original topic wasn’t about tax either.
I don’t know if the UK is worse than anywhere else (?)
In Sweden most government provided services are accessible through a web browser, but you need “BankID” which requires Android. Which is kind of Linux, though not fully FOSS.
But I’m sure the fact Android is FOSS had nothing to do with it, it’s just a random coincidence. It would simply be the most popular OS.
Well it surely is much much worse than my country by the looks of it.
Which is?
I’m in Canada and use Linux full-time without any such problems whatsoever. On rare occasions I use Edge instead of Firefox, and that’s it.
The best bank is monero
Crypto is scam.
Yes, treating crypto as a way to invest is a scam. The vast majority of crypto and crypto-adjacent “projects” are scams.
We live in a world where payment providers have the power to force Etsy to delist vendors that sell sex toys to customers of a legal age, payment apps like Venmo or PayPal will permaban your account for selling NSFW art or products, and physical cash is being largely abandoned for cards and digital wallets. Surely you can see the benefits of a completely anonymous payment method?
To be clear, I vastly prefer cash, but there’s an obvious issue with trying to anonymously use cash to pay for something on the internet or to send money to someone who isn’t within easy driving distance.
Ah yes, the currency that’s pretty much only accepted for buying drugs or anything illegal.
You can’t prove or disprove this statement and that’s the whole point of monero.
The whole point of what I’m saying is that nowhere accepts it and it’s therefore functionality useless for running a business, the point of this post/discussion.
I can easily prove that most retailers don’t accept Monero and it’s therefore basically useless.
It’s a pain in the arse to even buy in the UK, I know because I use it to buy drugs.
Also monerica. Include gift cards and almost all major retailers in the US and EU accept monero
I mean yes it’s not the same as paying with PayPal or any other “normal” payment processer but acceptance got a lot better over the last few years you can order basically all the online shit through proxy stores or exchange them through gift cards or by games directly with it.
Drugs are an affordable replacement for food and shelter.
Wrong. Drugs are too expensive.
Actually, the last time cryptocurrencies were mentioned in a thread i was reading here on lemmy someone pointed out that, due to government regulation changes, using cryptocurrencies on the dark web was the only way some people could get the drugs they needed.
Have u tried changing user agent? Get an add-on on Firefox with a similar name and change to chrome. The website will now think that u’r using Chrome. U could even change ur displayed OS if it has that big of a problem with Linux.
Thanks - I had not thought of this. I’ll give it a go… [edit: no dice :(]
If you do find their site works on a other browser (and I mean, the browser, not due to an addon, etc.) then complain to the company / bank / etc.
If they take your complaint seriously then I’d persevere with them… if they don’t then they’re not customer focused and your business (money) goes elsewhere.
if they don’t then they’re not customer focused and your business (money) goes elsewhere.
Yeah, let’s NOT pay taxes!
/sUnless you’re talking about the bank, in that case they’re literally here asking for a good alternative bank.
I gave up and used a Windows VM for such shenanigans. It’s hard when even the government doesn’t want to listen. This is a good project which bridges the gap -> https://github.com/Fmstrat/winapps.
I found for sites that I have to run in Chromium I use Tools -=> Create Shortcut, then Run in Windowed Mode. This puts a shortcut in your app list for the site, and runs it without menus like a web app. It helps me since my brain treats it like the company’s application vs site.
Firefox also has a built-in list of user agent overrides for websites that don’t work on Firefox for no reason.
You can create an issue here, and maybe they’ll fix it at some point. Not sure what the normal turnaround is for fixes like this though, could take a while.
You can see the list in
about:compatbtw
Can’t speak to the specific sites that you use but I’ve personally found firefox user agent spoofing results in almost every site that didn’t work on firefox suddenly magically working if they think you are on chrome.
I’ve found this to be the case a lot, too. I also spoof my OS because a lot of government sites will refuse to work unless it says Windows. It’s stupid, but here we are.
yes it is. I have tried messing with user agent now. Chromium works on linux, not firefox. :(
Librewolf does this out of the box
I’ve found HSBC to be ok using Firefox on Linux. I don’t know if they have integrations with any accounting software, but the web access works well, and you can export your transactions for processing locally.
ETA: I’ve run small business accounting on Gnucash, I found the learning curve a bit steep, but once you ‘get it’ it’s handy.
This is interesting, and meets my needs. I tried Gnucash, but the double entry bookkeeping was a bit to advanced for my small-business’/smooth-brain needs (amortising my stock of utility bills seemed a bit excessive! - though I am sure I was doing it wrong)
I’m also based in the UK. I don’t run a business but have occasionally encountered problems trying to use Librewolf on the web, especially with Noscript on.
I tried to use Qubes to separate my activities into VMs but I found it difficult. So I did my own, less extreme, approach using KVM.
I created a virtual machine which only has Chrome on it. This is what I use for accessing my bank, Paypal and doing online shopping.
I have a second machine I use for Whatsapp and email and finally a third with Librewolf for general web browsing.
Each uses the same VPN service but different servers.
I only use Freetube and Retroarch on my main machine.
This is on a very beefy Thinkpad I essentially use as a desktop in my office. I use a smaller machine downstairs with VNC on it as a remote when I’m sat on my sofa.
This sounds smart
This sounds ridiculous. So much work and overhead just to usea web browser?
It’s not that much work. I created a VM which is running the same distro as the host. I removed all of the apps except for the terminal. Then I cloned it for each VM I need.
The Whatsapp/ email client VM and the Librewolf VM start with my OS so it’s like having them in separate windows. The others I only start if needs be.
It’s a lot of effort for the benefit you get, which is practically nothing. Especially considering there are even easier ways to get the same result
Such as?
Just use tabs they can’t access each other’s data. Or use a tab session manager. Or separate Firefox profiles.
I don’t trust Chrome, Zoom or Teams, but sometimes have to use them. I will keep them in a separate VM but will look into Firefox profiles.
It’s not just browsing discussed there. Re-read that again with cybersecurity in mind… online banking shouldn’t be done whilst you’re sharing a browser with tiktok (as an example)
Yep, there’s private / incognito modes, but they just drop all the local session data, they’re not any more secure.
This is what Firefox containers are for. Put the predatory sites in a container so they can’t see out of it.
They can’t “see out” of their own tab either. Websites can only access data in the browser that they create.
Sure they can, with cookies or tracking pixels for example.
What? No. Just… No. My god - the misunderstanding around cookies is ridiculous. I blame the EU - they put a ‘warning label’ on them an now eveyone thinks they’re just evil.
Firstly - Cookies are only allowed to be read/written by the site you requested from. If they could read all cookies that would be a MASSIVE security problem and the internet would be fundamentally unusable for business.
Secondly - This has nothing to do with tabs. Nothing. … Nothing.
Thirdly - There are “third party” cookies which happen when a site coordinates with a third party for things like advertising and allows them to track hits when their ads are displayed. This requires both sites to cooperate. But also see “firstly” as it won’t allow that third party access to, say, your authentication information.
Lastly - This still has nothing to do with tabs.
online banking shouldn’t be done whilst you’re sharing a browser with tiktok (as an example)
Why? Be specific because unless something has gone horribly wrong sites can’t access data from other sites or tabs unless they’re cooperating. In which case they do so with session data.
And you could simply have a separate Firefox profile rather than spinning up an entire virtual machine.
XSS springs to mind.
And spinning up a VM (or container) is not that hard nowadays.
This does absolutely nothing to defend against XSS.
This is the problem with paranoia-based security. You create needless overhead thinking you’re “more secure,” but you’re not. Not in any way that really matters, at least.
So if i spin up a container to run just that browser for just that site i do nothing against XSS? Interesting.
Neat, Mozilla’s VPN supports setting servers on a per-container basis.
Though gotta watch for DNS leaks apparently.
I think the key part here is that it’s a guess on your part whether using Firefox is the cause. Do you get any specific error when using the website? Or does something just “not work”, such as you click a button and it does nothing?
Also, I’ve run into stuff like this before, and my best bet has been to be flexible about using other browsers to work around issues. I would suggest testing the banking website with Chromium (or even Chrome). If it works, file a bug with Mozilla (https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/file-bug-report-or-feature-request-mozilla) and just use Chromium/Chrome for only that website until the bug is fixed.
This will allow you to still do business, while still participating in open source via a helpful bug report that could end up benefitting others as well.
It works on chromium, not firefox. I guess I should be more flexible. It is likely that the bug is in the bank’s site, so I wasn’t sure about putting in a bug report. The website pauses on the ‘loading’ animated icon, when you try to navigate away, it tells you ‘Your session has expired’. It hasn’t been fixed by changing the user-agent (assuming I got it right). I don’t know if the bank would give them a dummy account for testing, but I’ll file a report anyway.
Do you use an ad blocker or privacy extension? I’ll just throw out there I don’t think it’s right, but I’ve had to disable adblock to get some banking site stuff to work
My bank blocked “firefox” at some point on debian. Then it was because the version of firefox presented it self to be too old (because debian) to the bank so they blocked me. Firefox was up to date on security pathes, but the bank did not understand that and blocked.
Slam an Edge user agent up in there.
If it works on chromium I’d consider that even if it is a quirk on the bank website, chromium is handling it cleanly and allowing you to use the site. That’s something we probably want incorporated in Firefox. I’d encourage submitting the bug report to Mozilla, and don’t assume too much about what they can/cannot do!
The UK Government didn’t create a free solution
You mean you must use their software to do taxes or what?
Back in my neck of the woods you either do them on paper (almost no one) or you submit online… They have well-defined APIs and you can use whatever you want (the IRS submission does use some java crap underneath but it’s fluid and you can save your progress in an XML file).
Although for most people it’s just a matter of logging in, checking that everything is in order, and clicking submit.
I’m grateful to the community and I use FOSS where possible.
Ok, but do you give anything back?
Always use a separate Firefox profile for banking needs.
Or Firefox Containers?
Firefox Containers are for Cookies and Storage separation. Profile, on the other hand, is a COMPLETE separation in all aspects of Firefox’s user data, setup , add-ons.
Maybe you can use some German bank. They allow one to interact with their API for free. I use GNU cash for it. Though I doubt that you can file your taxes via GNU cash and be aligned with current UK law. You would need to check it for your own.
Is the free API part actually true for Sparkasse? I was not able to find an API solution for them. I did find something, but beyond a certain step, there wasn’t an actual API.
Should be everywhere. I’ve only tried it with DKB.
https://www.bundesbank.de/en/tasks/payment-systems/psd2/psd2-775954
So you can actually get transaction information of your own account via an API via psd2?
Yes. I tried it once with Gnu cash and my dkb account, got 12 months of transactions or so.
https://www.aquamaniac.de/rdm/
Gives you an adapter and an standalone tool. All banks should use the same API, apparently.
I’ll take a look, thank you
