they’d face the same consequences as one who refuses to teach about the Civil War
Now I’m really afraid to find out what this includes
Which is a hilarious Freudian slip on their part. Who is it that they think don’t want to teach about the Civil War? Could it be the ones who instead refer to it as the “war of northern aggression” and try to erase the context of slavery by saying it was about “states rights”?
Reason number * I’m glad I don’t live I’m america
If more people actually read the Bible there would probably be fewer xtians.
How can you teach Bible? Which historical happening in Israel influenced what part, which pagan deity Beelzebub was, etc?
Today we read again from fiction.
No way this isn’t struck down. It’s got to just be a political signaling play.
They want it to go to SCOTUS so SCOTUS can (and probably will) make it legal.
‘Teach Bible’… only churches should ‘teach bible’ and nobody should be forced to go to church.
Is it even christian to force a sermon onto people?
Is it even christian to force a sermon onto people
Well historically Christian denominations have been quite pushy to say the least.
Some neighboring states that aren’t christo-fascist are about to get some really good teachers. Welcome to Colorado!
Except teachers here are paid shit and there’s little affordable housing.
That’s everywhere, unfortunately…
Then teach the parts of Isaiah which show clearly he held in contempt the people, of his day, who were doing what the “Jews” who convicted benJoseph, did, & what the “Christians” who identify as Republicans are doing now.
Teach how benJoseph called biblical-legalists “Hypocrites!” right in the bible.
Teach them all the things in their own bible which identify the “Christian” fascism as being the enemy of their own root-guru/Christ.
Here is Isaiah 1 from their bible, so you can see that what Moses fought against a couple millenia earlier ( if one happens to remember that stuff from other readings ), happens this time not within the people of Egypt, but within the Israelites…
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=isaiah+1&version=AMP
Obviously, now it’s happening within the “Christians”.
Notice, here, that nearly-all teachings on Hypocrites! are in the New Testament…
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=hypocrite&version=AMP
& here is a phrase, right in their bible, of the whole “they call themselves Jews, but are gaslighting” sentiment,
which, as anybody with integrity would understand, is an accusation which can be placed on many of ANY human religion, including the Dharmic religions ( including my own beloved Vajrayana ), including the Abrahamic religions, including the people who claim Science but embody/enforce Scientism’s gaslighting, etc…
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+2%3A9&version=AMP
It is a particular kind of dishonesty, and it isn’t limited-to any tradition or culture, no matter how convenient to some ideologies that would be.
Find all the parts of the bible that contradict the gaslighters who call themselves “Christian”, & teach only those bits.
WHEN teaching the now-legally-required-in-some-jurisdictions “10 Commandments”, add this & discuss how this applies to the people who legislate in our countries:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2%3A10&version=AMP
“Those who live by the sword, die by the sword”.
Turn their own book’s honest-truths against their falseness.
_ /\ _
School teachers, complying with letter of the law: “Bible says there was flood. Science says there weren’t. Bible says diseases exist as result of sin. Science diseases existed long before humans.”
Can that head of schools lose his license for demanding this bullshit that only leads into the next dark age?
What’s the difference here between teaching the bible and teaching history? I recall getting through Hon and AP US History and Civics with and understanding of protestantism conflicts, Calvinism, and Deism. The law and mandate is bullshit, but what is the actual curriculum requirements. If you are teaching the historical content of the Bible that means you can also teach about atheists that took issue with it. Is there a lot of room for malicious compliance?
History is based on historical facts and the Bible is not.
The existence of the Bible is historical fact and artifact. There is historical merit in studying the various religious beliefs of historical peoples that factored into their values and thinking. Protestantism is factually a thing. Different colonies and denominational belief is a thing and a topic in American history. What made Quakers Quakers and how did that impact the Pennsylvania.
There’s a difference between teaching the bible, teaching theology, and teaching histories of religion. There’s definitely questions of what we are teaching and what is appropriate in public primary and secondary schools and in what subject, but I don’t think there is anything in and of itself bad if the historical religious beliefs and impact on historical civic life are discussed.
Malicious compliance is still compliance. If you concede this hill, the next one will be a requirement to teach the Bible as historical truth. And then it will be to prevent teaching actual science.
Well I think the Unions and government need to push back on this (the AG already is). I 100% believe that this should be reveresed. But reading the article it states that losing your teaching license is possible punishment. It’s really easy to be high and mighty when it’s not your livelihood and job on the line. If you need to wait it out while the courts settle it what do teachers need to do to protect their jobs, stay in compliance, and avoid retaliation until this gets settled? How many teachers already are in compliance just by teaching regular US history curriculum that says “yeah, protestants read the bible and disputes on interpretation of the bible with catholics is part of the history of America.” I think it’s important to note that the Gutenberg press published the first printed bible. With the increase of education and literacy lay people no longer had to get teachings directly from the literate Orthodoxy. This allowed to different interpretation and rise of different religions which led to conflict, etc…
Oh I completely agree with you, and I don’t begrudge anyone who’s willing to do what they have to do to keep their jobs. My point is just that fascists don’t play fair. They won’t put their hands on their hips and smirk disapprovingly at malicious compliance. They will keep stepping on your neck until you do exactly what they want without question. You know that when they say the Bible, they of course mean their interpretation of their version of a Bible of their choosing. They aren’t going to permit debate on the topic.
Cool. Sorry, I’m accustomed to being flamed on this thread for not being as liberal as the base here. Sorry if I came off super defensive. I can’t tell if the superintendent is just posturing or not. Without any curriculum definition, what does “teaching the bible” even mean. I agree his objective is probably hoping to teach christian fundametalism, but you can’t make that happen with some batshit memo by itself. I actually wish schools could teach religion in a balanced way. In a pluralistic multicultural society, it probably helps to have some background to understand basics of other religions.
No worries about coming off as defensive, I completely understand how you would read my comment as an attack. It wasn’t how I meant it, but I recognize that I was fired up about it.
The superintendent is absolutely posturing, and I don’t think he believes he will win in court. But I believe there is a chance he wins in court, especially given the number of activist conservative justices we have on the bench.
I don’t have any doubt about what he meant by “teaching the Bible,” and I am certain it had nothing to do with providing a rounded and thorough depiction of various religious and cultural practices of a pluralistic multicultural society. The guy is a christo-fascist and a bigot. He belongs in prison for trying to abuse his position in government to subjugate his constituents.
The funny thing is that a basic understanding of the Bible is actually important for making sense of American history - the people making that history were strongly influenced by the Bible and so unless you know at least the major “plot points”, their actions (and a lot of literature) won’t make much sense.
With that said, I don’t trust Oklahoma to teach about the Bible in a manner appropriate for historical analysis rather than religious dominance.
There’s a lot of truth in that but your second point is the reason why it’s still a terrible, terrible idea.
Not just American history, the Bible is the absolute cornerstone of our entire culture. As the one book that every household owned for much of recorded history, the amount of biblical references and reused stories is ridiculous.
I have absolutely no problem with the Bible being taught in schools as it’s an incredibly important document. I find it odd that it isn’t, because the separation of church and state shouldn’t prohibit the study of old books in any way.
I was talking about this with my wife who came from Taiwan at 16 and was sort of second hand exposed to Western culture. She said everything can’t be a bible story can it? I dug out a Bible off the shelf and flipped through, well you know David and Goliath, you know Samson, Jonah and the whale yeah these are classics right?
She says no, so I ask if she knows the story of Pinocchio or why her luggage was made by “Samsonite”. And the truck that we saw yesterday with the “G0L1ATH” license plate?
Yeah it’s everywhere
For a long period which roughly coincided with the founding of America, English-speaking people only learned to read using the Bible, and often that was the only book they ever used for anything so it became a sort of de facto dictionary and Guiness Book of World Records and all kinds of things that it was never meant to be, plus a lot of new things it was never meant to be, and of course the things it was always meant to be.
Mandatory firearms training in school would be more Constitutional than teaching the Bible though. For a very important reason. Akin to a “prime directive” if you will. If you want kids to study it as an elective then fine, allow that, but forcing it on kids is wrong, wrong wrong.
If you go back further though, translation of the text to a language the “people” could understand was illegal. Anyone caught with such texts was imprisoned or worse. Those in charge and using religion to control the masses (it’s true intention IMHO) didn’t want everyone to be able to read it, they wanted people depending on the “chosen” to teach and judge them (what today we may call a cult).
True, but that was a fair bit before the founding of America. Although to your point I doubt they’ll be forced to teach that history. More likely they’ll be forbidden from teaching that history.
Right, only the modern interpretation of an original text that very few people in the world has even seen, let alone able to read. And then all the MANY offshoots of Christianity because each had something people didn’t like, a “leader” made a new “version” for them. Forced indoctrination like this is very similar to starting a cult, as almost all of those start with someone that needs to interpret the text or “God’s” word.
I think it would be an interesting exercise for everyone pushing this to have to compare and contrast with say David Koresh, or Joseph Smith, and explain how their version of God’s word isn’t a cult.
Forcing it as a belief system is definitely wrong, but we were forced to study plenty of literature when I was in school, much of it far less relevant. I don’t see the difference with the Bible, especially if presented as a historical document and prototypical collection of stories?
I’m not religious and wasn’t raised in a religious family, but when I decided to pick up a Bible and read it as a teenager I couldn’t believe how much context it gave me on our culture and its origins.
Having to read and study the whole thing would also help rein in overzealous religion IMO. The #1 reason I’ve heard from evangelicals who left their church was “I decided to read the Bible for myself”
Forcing it as a belief system is definitely wrong, . . . I don’t see the difference with the Bible . . .
Make no mistake, that is absolutely the point of these - again, unconstitutional - laws. They’re hoping to parlay this illegitimate fascist court into making it constitutional while the iron is hot.
. . . especially if presented as a historical document and prototypical collection of stories?
It won’t be. They want this in elementary school. How much literature was in grades 1-3? Any inference that it will be treated as a “historical document” is an outright lie. (Edit: the article says teachers must teach it to “students in grades five through 12” but that’s different than Louisiana’s “10 commandments displayed in all classrooms” law. They all serve the same purpose: to promote “Christianity” in school.)
I’m not religious and wasn’t raised in a religious family …
Then believe me when I tell you this is what it is for. These legislators are not history buffs. They are evangelical ‘Christian’ nationalists.
I couldn’t believe how much context it gave me on our culture and its origins.
Having to read and study the whole thing would also help rein in overzealous religion IMO. The #1 reason I’ve heard from evangelicals who left their church was “I decided to read the Bible for myself”
Good points and I’m all in favor of unintended positive outcomes. Bible scholarship is interesting as an elective and if that was offered at my school I might have considered it. But that’s not what we’re talking about here.
We’re talking about criminal penalties for not promoting a specific religion. That’s the whole point of the law, and it is 100% wrong.
Thanks for the American context as I’m a Canadian and our systems are different here. I didn’t realize the risks involved and the motivation behind it. I think this might be my least popular comment on Lemmy ever😅
The USA as a battleground between religion and atheism changes the context as I would shrug most of this off here in Canada as harmless. Like the 10 commandments? Most of them are good advice, basically just “don’t be a piece of shit” and i wouldn’t have a problem teaching them to kids… Unless the goal is to teach them actively as the word of God and marginalize non-believers as sinful, in which case this is absolutely criminal. That is church, not school.
We have a more robust separation of church and state to the point where when I read “teaching the Bible in school” I hear “robustly secular, historical and cultural study” which as I stated I believe would be a valuable learning experience. In Quebec there are even rules that public servants can’t display any religious symbols at all, even as small as a cross on a bracelet. The leader of our Conservative party recently made a statement that both abortion and gay rights were “a closed issue” and he would not stand for any attacks on them.
So personally my wife and I made the hard decision this year to send our daughter to a Catholic school next year due to the rapidly declining quality of public education. However the Catholic school district here is publicly funded and staffed, with strict regulations that any religious content is optional and that respect must be given equally to those who choose it or do not choose it.
Many of her friends have already made the switch (regular school is quickly emptying out of smart kids and turning into a zoo as parents pull their kids) and stated this is exactly how it works, most of them being non-religious as well but impressed with the discipline and learning outcomes. My wife teaches college and said the difference is night and day with some kids even making it out of public highschool unable to read. Meanwhile my daughter’s new school has won awards for the achievements of its graduates and their placement in top schools and in industry.
So you see I’m comfortable enough with our dedication to secularism here in Canada that I am willing to send my daughter to an actual Catholic school with no fear that she will be brainwashed… Obviously a bit of bible study doesn’t scare me but in the context of the USA culture war it’s clearly a much bigger deal.
Oh! Oh, yes, it’s a whole thing here since the “Moral Majority” group in the 80’s that packaged well-meaning people into hateful ignorant political cheerleaders.
And I appreciate your perspective because it highlights a different aspect of the right-wing agenda: part of their process is to build in a “reasonable interpretation” of laws that they actually have no interest in whatsoever.
As an example, there was a big push in many states to enact “voter i.d.” laws. We used to just walk into the polling station, give our name and address, they’d look it up, put a checkmark next to it to show we’ve been counted, and we’d go vote.
Well the right wing media in concert with the republiQans and propaganda mills, i mean, “think tanks” started complaining this was a system ripe for abuse. “SO MANY people just vote multiple times under different names!”
That absolutely never happened in any even-close-to significant amount. Never. There were individual cases - we still see them once in awhile, and it’s always the republiQans doing it. Anyway, they kept this lie up for years.
While that was going on, republiQan legislators, united by ALEC, passed laws saying everyone had to show a valid government ID to vote. I had several conversations with friends and family about these, and either due to parroting the fox news talking points or genuine well-meaning concern, they said, “but doesn’t it make sense to know someone is who they SAY they are, before they vote?” And it does. It does make sense.
But that’s not why they did it. They did it because people without government ID are largely older minority voters, who mostly vote Democratic. This was just to prevent them from voting. They had all sorts of made up lies about “oh they can just go down to the DMV and get a free ID”, yeah if someone takes them and walks them through it and they brought the right paperwork, yeah. It was a big burden for a lot of people who just stopped voting (mission accomplished).
Secondarily, anyone with outstanding parking tickets or who suspects there’s a warrant out for them (or is in general targeted by the cops, like black men) will see lots of ads and mailers before the election that when they show their ID to vote they’ll be arrested and taken away. They won’t, it’s just scare tactics but it works well and voting went down for a lot of Democratic-leaning voters.
To this day they stand by the now long-discredited idea that people are using false identities to vote - trump even clings to this as one of his Big Lies of how he “mysteriously” didn’t get enough votes in 2020, still. It was always bullshit; it was always designed to keep Democrats from voting, and it worked.
lots of ads and mailers before the election that when they show their ID to vote they’ll be arrested and taken away
I’ve seen a mailer providing false information that a certain very liberal group (out-of-state college students) wasn’t allowed to vote, but I’ve never seen something like this. Do you have a link to an example of it?
he people making that history were strongly influenced by the Bible
Depends what era you’re talking about and what you mean by influence. I would say that the reason Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason was so popular and that Jefferson made his own version of the New Testament, which removed the supernatural, suggest that the Bible was less of an influence in the founding of the nation than would be supposed here. The fact that Muhammad is in as venerated a place on the Supreme Court building as Moses also suggests they didn’t think it was the source of all wisdom.
Really, you need to look no further than our legal system though to see how little influence the Bible and Christianity actually have. I don’t just mean the First Amendment, I mean the fact that our whole system is basically a gradual evolution from the laws of Ancient Rome. They had trial by jury in Ancient Rome. It was a permanent jury, not a jury of one’s peers, but you can see the skeleton of our legal system and how it came from those ancient heathens, not Jesus.
I think you are really glossing over the work of Thomas Aquinas. It’s kind of hard to separate the Rome/Greek stuff from the historical Christianity stuff before modern day Evangelical Fundamentalism. Christian thought historically became very linked to Greek philosophy.
In what way was Thomas Aquinas an important influence on the founding of the United States and in what way would that be appropriate to teach elementary school kids?
It’s not appropriate for an elementary school kids. Per the article, this applies to grades 5 through 12. So what, 1 year of elementary with the primary focus of impact on junior high and high school?
But if you are getting into questions of “what was more important to our founding fathers, rome or christianity?” I’d say that’s pretty difficult to separate because of thinkers like Thomas Aquinas that married Greek Philosophy with Christianity. When you begin with a point that God is the source of reason, and build off of that, I think you can’t easily separate that out.
No, I asked in what way Thomas Aquinas contributed to the founding of the U.S. It seems like your reasoning is pretty damn indirect and it’s even more indirectly related to the Bible, so this law does not apply.
And it either isn’t appropriate for elementary school or it should be taught in the fifth grade (also, sixth grade is still elementary school in many districts). Which is it?
You said this:
Really, you need to look no further than our legal system though to see how little influence the Bible and Christianity actually have. I don’t just mean the First Amendment, I mean the fact that our whole system is basically a gradual evolution from the laws of Ancient Rome.
this statement says nothing about what should be taught in schools, it’s a statement of history. my statement is simply stating it is very difficult to separate out the roman influence from the christian influence because of thomas aquinas linking christian tradition to greek thought. I would say that from a intellectual POV, founding fathers were probably equally or more influenced by greeks than romans, but at the end of the day we can just call it all classical thought. that’s pretty apparent in our architecture of state houses. This is a tangential discussion where we are not discussing what should be taught in schools, but just historical thought in the USA. Please re-read your own to catch up on the conversation topic.
My statement was made within the context of the article I posted. I’m not sure why you think I would have made it otherwise.
For anyone curious about who shows up on the Supreme Court building
Thank you for that. Incidentally, I have never heard for a big push from Muslims to remove Muhammad from the building, or at least obscure his image. I’m not sure if that’s because they aren’t aware of it or just because it is too old to do anything about it at this point.
I would reckon it’s because it was specifically designed to not be an accurate depiction? Maybe?
I don’t think that has made a difference in other situations.
I think youre right but age or historical importance hasn’t exactly stopped extremists from destroying what they consider blasphemy either
That’s why I’m wondering if they just aren’t aware.
I have a lot of friends who, like me grew, up going to church. Some went to catholic high schools, some went to liberal arts colleges with required religions classes in the core curriculum, or had other exposure. None of us go to church in our adulthood and have no intention starting when we have kids. But we all want our kids to have an understanding of what Christianity is because it’s important for understanding American history, origins of non profit institutions, and contemporary political and cultural climate. Also want to ensure there’s exposure and understanding of Judaism, Islam, and other predominant religions. Not sure how kids are supposed to get that these days without growing up in a religious house hold.
Growing up in the Pacific Northwest I remember in school we studied Native American cultures which included some exposure to myth and religion. I wish there was a way schools could touch on modern religions in a more neutral way, perhaps more similar to how we teach classics/greek mythology.
And this is the same cunt that was blaming “the radical left” for “politicizing” the death of a child under his care. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/23/us/oklahoma-nonbinary-student-superintendent.html
Teachers can make this backfire by teaching kids about how Jesus said, among other things:
- Rich people don’t go to heaven
- Jesus’s answer to religious people not wanting to see things was for the people complaining to pluck out their eyes.
- How Jesus told his followers to sell their shit and give it to the poor.
All things republicans hate because it goes against their ideals. Also they can talk about how in Acts it says Christians lived communally or just read James 5:1-6 verbatim.
But I guarantee the schools will force their teachers only to read parts of the bible that the state demand, because it’s not about Christianity, it’s about using religion to control people.
America was founded on the principle of no official state religion and has fought against it ever since.
You’ve not fought against it very well, have you?
- You have school “voucher” schemes for religious schools, which do shit like teach kids that Evolution is wrong because of the bible.
- You added “In God we Trust” do your money and added “Under God” to the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s (The pledge, with or without it, is in itself a form of state worship).
- You have had presidents (Reagan, Bush II) openly promote the idea that America is a Christian state through historical falsehoods.
- One of the most powerful factions in your government are American Evangelicals who have used their power to promote religious based laws, especially against women and minorities.
- Every President in recent times has had to show themselves to be openly Christian, with “not being christian (enough)” being a common attack strategy.
And that’s just Christianity, if I was going to go into how you worship the state…
- You have Four Faces of Presidents carved on a literal sacred mountain.
- You make your kids pledge allegiance to the state every morning (I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands).
- You have two (2) congress funded art pieces that depict George Washington as a God (Washington Enthroned and The Apotheosis of Washington), the latter of which is in the oculus of the Rotunda at Congress for everyone to see.
- The Lincoln Memorial is straight up designed like a Greco-Roman Temple.
- You have, as a social norm, displaying your flag outside your house.
How is that not going to be interpreted as “religious”?
Now, I know someone is going to be all “lol aren’t you from the uk where you worship the royal family” well guess fucking what:
- Barely anyone in the UK worships the royals, especially where I’m from (Scotland) and the people who do even in England are considered weird. Our relationship with the Royals as a country is usually one of aggressive irreverence. My family’s nicknames for the king includes “The Jug Eared Dwarf”, “Chuckie III” and “Tearlach an Chluas”.
- Despite having two (2) established churches (Church of England and Church of Scotland), non religious people make up the majority and the UK is aggressively secular.
- Despite the established religion and having the (in practice) head of state also be the (in practice) head of the Church, none of our politicians try and use religion to justify their bullshit and those who do are considered wankers.
America, in the eyes of most of the world, is aggressively religious, not just in terms of christianity but also in worship of the state.
Death by a thousand cuts kills us all.
Also, who says it’s the christian bible 😁 ?
Teach them the story of Lot and his daughters, let them go home and ask their parents about it.
