It’s a nightmare scenario for Microsoft. The headlining feature of its new Copilot+ PC initiative, which is supposed to drive millions of PC sales over the next couple of years, is under significant fire for being what many say is a major breach of privacy and security on Windows. That feature in question is Windows Recall, a new AI tool designed to remember everything you do on Windows. The feature that we never asked and never wanted it.
Microsoft, has done a lot to degrade the Windows user experience over the last few years. Everything from obtrusive advertisements to full-screen popups, ignoring app defaults, forcing a Microsoft Account, and more have eroded the trust relationship between Windows users and Microsoft.
It’s no surprise that users are already assuming that Microsoft will eventually end up collecting that data and using it to shape advertisements for you. That really would be a huge invasion of privacy, and people fully expect Microsoft to do it, and it’s those bad Windows practices that have led people to this conclusion.
I wish Linux weren’t completely fucking impenetrable for casual users.
It’s just a little different nowadays. Like the other user said, they just don’t know they have a choice or what to choose and follow whatever they know…
And what was one of the early bolsheviks’ regime strongest points? They created schools and made people literate en masse, and did it with their own curriculum. People became less suspective to ex elites and religious propaganda, and became their target audience.
Adobe, Google, MS give discounts and special programs for education because this way people get used to their products. Many local organizations that touch these casual users don’t have a real IT department and just flow with what’s given, they don’t make an informed choice like corporations. And that’s probably the place where this switch may even start to begin. A class of students who started with e.g. KDE Plasma would be used to it more than they used to Windows, same with other software. They can already do their homework and play most games. What else do they need?
The sharp corner is to find money to fund select schools to show others it’s not scary and makes it even cheaper for them in the long run, maybe some special troubleshooting team to teach them the ropes. I’ve heard from some users there and on reddit that their computer classes with a geeky teacher who installed Linux is how they’ve rolled in without a problem.
It’s gotten a lot better over the years
When I first tried it (back in 2010) it was pretty rough all around but after trying it again recently due to the whole TPM requirement for Windows 11 I’ve found it to be really straight forward
Linux Mint is really user friendly and is what I’ve even put on my grandma’s pc
Your grandma probably hates the fact that you did though. There’s a small chance that’s not the case but I’d be shocked if she hadn’t complained about it many times to other people.
Your grandma would hate and complain about upgrading from Win10 to Win11 just the same, though. Everyone hates change itself. What the change is made to doesn’t really matter.
People do hate change. The bigger the change the more they hate it. That’s exactly why Windows to Linux is much worse for them than Windows 10 to Windows 11.
Cinnamon desktop (Linux Mint) is actually pretty damn close to the windows desktop, so the change is mostly just cosmetic.
People in my family are straight forward and blunt with their opinions and how they feel about things. She did mention it was weird looking but she was willing to try it out because her system was going to be insecure before the end of next year.
She’s had no complaints so far in the last few months.
I think it is pretty grandma-proof; less is more. Windows xp-like start menu with no web results or other nonsense there, just internet button, picture viewer, and solitaire. Updates can be automated and there’s no easy way to break the ui, like accidentally removing the task bar.
Exactly what I was thinking when I installed it for her
I was even able to give her Space Cadet Pinball back (she was a big fan back in the day and still kills it)
Space Cadet Pinball
Man, your grandma is cool.
Only sometimes unfortunately
As long as anything political or related to religion is avoided she’s mostly fine
People who don’t understand what an OS is typically use linux mint fine because they just open chrome or Firefox.
That’s the real concern. Can they go online, read email, and easily look at their photos?
Even the casual Zoom meeting is a breeze because of the Flatpak client.
So you need a whole ass sandbox program just to run Zoom? Hm.
You actually don’t need it.
If you trust Zoom enough, then you can install its official client from its webpage, without “a whole ass sandbox program” that restricts its access to important parts of your system.
But it’s your call, I prefer the other way around.
Its a selling point for me privacy wise no? The program Doesn’t need the access to everything like my graphene phone.
You keep making posts that made sense or were accurate 5-15 years ago, thats why you keep getting downvoted.
Pretend you know nothing about linux, and go and try something like Mint, and youll likely have an experience that mirrors the people downvoting you.
You say that but at the same time there’s a linuxmemes post in my feed right now where people are joking about how broken drivers require an OS reinstall so you know
It’s not that it hasn’t gotten better, but that the entire infrastructure that’s underpinning the GUI is simply completely different than what people are used to. And I’m not just talking CLI here, because the average Windows user likely doesn’t use that to begin with – it’s things like filesystem organization, software management, driver installation, configuration files, etc.
And it’s not that these barriers are insurmountable either, but they DO require a significant amount of cognitive effort that not everyone is willing to put in.
I’ve heard this a few times lately. It makes me curious how recent the impenetrable experience was.
I’m shocked at the idea that an average Windows user who tried this year’s version of Debian Stable would find it even mildly confusing, much less impenetrable.
I switch between Windows 10 and Debian 12 Stable, daily.
I find that, on Debian, all the expected features are in the same spots, acting the same ways.
Disclaimer: I don’t have an Nvidia graphics card to cause me headaches.
And I do understand that depending on hardware, installation can be tough. That’s true with Windows, too, of course. At least installation doesn’t have to be an issue for new purchases, since enough PCs can now ship with either pre-installed.
I do have Nvidia graphics, and it just works.
Same. Never had a problem. I installed Linux Mint and it simply worked correctly without any modifications. Quite a bit of care is taken with the UX which is outstanding considering it’s a volunteer project.
Quite a bit of care is taken with the UX which is outstanding considering it’s a volunteer project.
Yeah. I am frequently delighted by excellent usability experiences on modern Linux!
Maybe I’m biased, since it’s so much better than when I started. But I still have a Windows 10 PC for my work, and - while the usability on Windows 10 is no slouch - I honestly would have a hard time saying which is better, overall, now. (Ignoring, for the sake of discussion, really obvious anipatterns like the start menu ads in Windows.)
2002 called, they want their Linux attitude back
I don’t think a casual user would in many cases even be able to tell the difference. I mean you have a desktop with some icons which most of people only use to start the browser which is absolutely identical in both systems.
You have a start menu with other programs and you have a task bar which shows the open programs and some status icons and a clock.
It is really not that different. Most people just start a browser and go on Facebook or eBay or whatever, use a simple word processor for the daily needs. I don’t think they would be able to tell the difference.
My wife’s 91 year old grandmother used Mint without any issues whatsoever. All she needed was solitaire and the internet.
But, a lot of people do look at something different and just throw up their hands and say, “I don’t know how to use it,” without ever trying.
The only real limiting factor is that most computers that you just walk into a store and buy (and are not made by Apple) come with Windows, and people just use whatever comes with their computers.
People rarely switch even default settings, let alone the entire OS.
I’m sure if computers came with Linux, there wouldn’t be that many complaints from casual users after they got used to it.
The hardest people to switch over are the Windows power users in my experience.
Most are not sure how to safely and properly install a new OS. If a computer came with Linux already pre-installed instead of Windows, count me in!
There are vendors who sell laptops that come pre-installed with Linux. Only thing is that they’re a bit more niche. Dell is probably the biggest name who sells computers with Linux as an optional OS on their website, but IIRC they brand it as “developer editions”.
Otherwise, you get vendors like System76, Tuxedo, Purism, etc. (Maybe Framework, but IDR if they even install an OS)
I still don’t think that you can walk into a store and buy any of the above.
Not that installing Linux is difficult; in fact, it’s easier than installing Windows IMO. Most distros come with easy-to-use graphical installers with easy-to-understand language, even for newbies. They also come with a live environment that lets you try out the distro before installing it. Thing is, most people aren’t even going to bother trying it.
Thing is, most people aren’t even going to bother trying it.
Here is to that changing. Society needs better options regular users will be able to just purchase and go, imo.
There are plenty of vendors that ship with Linux preinstalled. Even Dell does this with select models.
And just for the record, the tone of this is meant to be encouraging. I love hearing that people are open to other options.
I’d say it’s really easy. The only requirement is making a choice to use something else, which most unfortunately is already asking too much for the vast majority of users.
It isn’t impenetrable. ChromeOS and Android are Linux based after all. If you don’t want to be prayed upon by Google you can use things like UBlue (inc. Aurora, Bazzite), PopOS, or Mint.
The advantage of PopOS and UBlue being you can download an image with Nvidia drives pre installed.
PopOS is a very mac like interface so you might not like it. Otherwise it’s pretty much install and go, has good community support, and even comes pre installed on some high end machines.
In the case of UBlue they include images for specific manufacturers of laptops like ASUS, Framework, and Microsoft surface. You also get fully automatic atomic upgrades with rollback in case of failure, similar to Chrome OS. This means even if you do something very stupid like reboot in the middle of an OS update, it won’t matter. It’s engineered to be almost unbreakable even for new Linux users thanks to being partly immutable. You get a choice as well between varieties for normal users called Aurora, one of gamers called Bazzite, a development one called Bluefin, and a server version too. Being based on Fedora it’s also reasonably up to date as well, but without sacrificing stability like Arch does.
Linux Mint is the classic easy to use Linux that runs on most computers made in the last 10 years and often older. It does sometimes struggle on newer machines with drivers though as it’s not using an up to date kernel. What it’s good for is that it pretty much just works when you have it installed and set up. It’s popular so you should get plenty of community support. It’s a quite similar interface to Windows while arguably looking better and definitely using less resources.
Once again, the penguin was been vindicated.
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Buy a mac or support steamOS adoption or just get a linux distro. This will drive the improvement of nontechnical consumer GNU/Linux
The day Windows 10 loses support is the day I primary (or solo) boot Linux on my gaming desktop. The more news I read the more certain I am in this.
Why wait?
I have a laptop solo booting Ubuntu and a Steam Deck, they’re great. But on my desktop where I’m primarily playing games, many of which wirh anti cheat, it’s not worth making the switch just yet. I think another year of development into Proton and stability will make it worth it. Also, I got a NAS recently with OpenMediaVault and I only have the time to tinker with one thing at a time :P
Any advice on the switch though, or tools you use lmk!
many of which wirh anti cheat, it’s not worth making the switch just yet.
I get that. Shit like that is the only reason I stick with a dual boot.
Also, I got a NAS recently with OpenMediaVault and I only have the time to tinker with one thing at a time :P
I also get that. My self hosted gaming server can be a bit of work sometimes.
Any advice on the switch though, or tools you use lmk!
Two things, I’d go with Linux Mint Debian Edition if I we’re you. I’ve found it to be the most compatible with my games, (like 9 out of 10 or so), and have had zero major issues/glitches with it. Plus it avoids the drauam surrounding ubuntu.
The second thing is to keep a separate “home” partition for your documents/pictures/game saves/etc. Mine is [Name]_STC, with the acronym being a nod to wh40k’s Standard Template Constructs. The idea being it isn’t named something generic like “home”, or worse using the home folder.
And anytime I need to back up shit, I just zip the whole partition and put it on a separate drive. If something happens, I copy my standard template construct.
I’m similar except I use Debian, and I just bought a cheap SSD for my gaming computer, knowing that Windows 10 will be well out of service before I retire it. I’ve done a couple of OS transitions before, and I figure not dealing with partition editing or losing files is worth what a 256GB SSD costs in 2024.
I started with Ubuntu, and left because I don’t like how they run things; I think it’s worth trying a few more distros if you haven’t already, to find one you vibe with. Unless you want a project (which some do), finding one that works with your hardware, supports a DE you like, etc is a good time investment imo.
Where are at point no where new features added to something (phone, OS, website, etc) are only to further monetize the user while providing a minimal benefit.
People are losing trust with technology providers.
If this technology existed back in Windows 95 days people, would have gone wild for it.
I finally switched to Linux Mint a week ago. I’ve just had enough of Microsoft and I couldn’t think of any more reasons why I shouldn’t switch.
I’ve got Libre Office for all my productivity needs. All my Steam games work under Linux. My VPN works just fine. Firefox for web browsing. Thunderbird for email. And Wine to run those 1-2 Windows programs that I just can’t do without.
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I just read they decided to default it to off. They should remove it entirely imo, but with this move, it costs IT departments $0 and 0 hours of their time to worry about.
I think business + government + education usage is more important for them than personal, and as long as this costs them nothing, I doubt it makes a dent in anyone’s plans. Could have been an apocalypse if defaulted to on though.
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If it’s anything like some of the other features they’ve crammed in they will ask that question over and over and over and over again until you choose the answer they want.
For at least 3 decades. That’s twice more than the time between Second Boer War and WWI. That’s the time between the start of WWII and the initial versions of Unix. Or between the initial versions of Unix and Start Wars the Phantom Menace. More than between the original Star Wars and the Phantom Menace.
Thank you for your service to this thread.
I’m using windows 11 and after hearing about recall and all the other shit they’ve done, I’ve finally decided to make the jump to Linux
So for atleast me, this was the final straw
Some, maybe 1-2% of Windows users keep yelling “I’ma switch to Linux”. They then try it for a few days and give up.
You didn’t matter in the first place, but also you will most likely not make a successful transition anyways.
Crab
Lol. Okay whatever you say.
Same here
I get that. And, playing the devil’s advocate here…what happens in a couple of years when the time comes to purchase a new Laptop/desktop that comes pre-installed with Windows? Will your current ire and consternation hold up until then, meaning you’ll take the effort…long after this current “trust crisis” is over…to install Linux once again. Or, with this current scandal a faint memory from a few years back, will you just kind of shrug and say “Hey…it’s there, I might as well just go with it.”
I mean no offense, and I by know means want to presume your answer here. But I’d be willing to bet 90% of the people who, in a pique of ire, replace their current windows with a linux distro, won’t bother to do the same when they purchase a new laptop down the road.
Installing Linux is a pretty trivial process at this point. Not much additional work beyond what already comes with setting up a new laptop. Especially of you’ve already done it before.
Unless it’s arch lol.
Every machine I’ve purchased in the last 16 years has had a Linux liveCD or USB key before first power up. Windows has tried to boot a couple times, when I was too slow to figure out how to select a boot device, but none has actually completed the boot process. I take a sort of perverse pleasure in formatting pre-installed windows without it ever having run.
That’s my strategy as well. I just don’t know how many of us there are that are that committed vs the people who are “temporarily irate” and then go back with their next purchase because its “easier”.
I had dabbled in gaming on Linux but never made the jump. After reading about recall I spent a week making my choice on OS of choice ( and then I switched a week after :') ).
I’m fully on Linux now. Even if they fully back down from windows recall I dont need an OS that’s trying to sell me something based on whatever I do in it.
It was my final straw as well.
Edit: and it hasn’t really been bad either. The shader compilation after every gfx driver update is a bit annoying. That’s about it.
I’ll probably run into something at one point. Like some anti cheat that doesn’t work and is preventing me from playing the game.
Im in similar scenario. Which distro you decided on?
I ended up with nobara ( KDE ). Though if i had to reinstall I might give bazzite a go.
No hate for nobara though. It’s working fine gaming wise. Had a gfx issue once after an update, which was resolved by just running the nobara system updater.
I have some issues getting devpods to work. But that is completely unrelated to gaming :D
If you don’t enjoy having driver issues, just install regular old Fedora with Gnome. The fancier you get with Linux, the more maintenance you have to put into the system. Fedora works out of the box.
Tbh it was kind of my fault. I should’ve used the general updater that comes with nobara by default.
Edit: the devpod issue is a bit weird and not driver related. Its got something to do with SSL when its trying to clone the git repo. But I can run the clone command myself just fine. Honestly the devcontainer hasnt really worked out great for me in combination with jetbrains.
It might work better with vscode, but that editor makes me want to throw my device out the window. All the love to people who use it/enjoy it on a daily basis but it is just not for me.
Linux has lots of flavors; and just like ice cream, you can have a scoop, see if you like it, and try another one later.
I’ve been through so many Linux and Unix flavors over the years, it’s borderline absurd. But what was great is that I found a flavor just right for me and my needs, like finding your ideal car. Don’t worry about making the right decision on a flavor at the start, just dive in.
Ubuntu, Fedora, Mint, Pop! OS, Manjaro, elementary OS, Zorin etc are great starting points. You’ll hear people bigging up Arch, Nix, Gentoo, Slackware, Void, etc. There’s are all great in their own way and very well might be the right thing for you but don’t feel pressured to jump in the deep end (unless you love that thing, then be my guest - Arch was a lot of fun getting it up and running for the first time).
The best decision I can suggest is learning about mount points and having a drive dedicated to your files and simply mounting that drive inside your home directory. It means you can wipe and try another distro wherever you like without having to copy your files off and on over and over again.
I 100% agree. I personally did this:
- Ubuntu
- Fedora
- Arch
- openSUSE Tumbleweed
I had a reason for each switch, and I’m pretty happy where I’m at. That said, I don’t recommend openSUSE or Arch to new users even though I think they’re fantastic, I just think a new user will get better support with something Debian or Fedora derived.
A couple people recommended Fedora spins but I’d recommend just sticking with the big distros (that have up-to-date graphics drivers readily available - so not Debian.) A lot of the gaming-focused distros are only saving you a few terminal commands and increase your risk of running into issues; they’re good, but they may not be as 100% stable as you’ll find in major long-running distros like Fedora or Mint.
I have settled on Fedora with KDE Plasma. Here’s basically everything I copy pasted for gaming:
# install steam, discord, nvidia drivers sudo dnf install https://mirrors.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/rpmfusion-free-release-$(rpm -E %fedora).noarch.rpm https://mirrors.rpmfusion.org/nonfree/fedora/rpmfusion-nonfree-release-$(rpm -E %fedora).noarch.rpm -y sudo dnf config-manager --enable fedora-cisco-openh264 -y sudo dnf update -y sudo dnf install steam discord akmod-nvidia xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-cuda # install bluetooth Xbox driver sudo dnf install git dkms cd /tmp git clone https://github.com/atar-axis/xpadneo.git && cd xpadneo sudo ./install.shI also had to enable Legacy X11 App Support through the settings gui so that Discord could receive push to talk presses without having focus.
Sweet, thanks. I want to start something straightforward and so far Mint looks very promising.
If you are interested in gaming, Bazzite is built on top of a Fedora distro but adds default installs of Steam and (optional) Nvidia drivers and tweaks. It’s got a cool immutable root setup. You should be able to stay pretty up-to-date, but can roll back the entire OS if an update breaks something.
Edit: and it hasn’t really been bad either. The shader compilation after every gfx driver update is a bit annoying. That’s about it.
If it’s shader compilation under Steam, turn it off in settings. With advancements in graphics drivers and Proton, it really isn’t needed anymore.
I disabled it about 12 months ago and haven’t noticed any difference in performance whatsoever.
Which distro did you end up on? I’ve been looking into them and after using steamos on my deck, I think I will go with Bazzite kde
I ended up with nobara. I might give bazzite a go at one point, but more out of interest. Nobara is treating me just fine!
the vast majority don’t care or they would have stopped using it a long time ago
It’s a little disingenuous to claim people should’ve stopped using something that hasn’t come to market yet. I was looking for other options when they started trying to force me to upgrade to Windows 11, but this absolutely is the last straw that I won’t use Windows on my next computer.
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You said there was no evidence that anyone would change. I told you my personal story how this IS impacting me and how I’m going to change OS on my next computer, and you… just sarcastically dismissed me?
Did you want to actually contribute to the conversation or just be upset?
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I both agree and disagree. I agree that there isn’t going to be a single ‘straw’, because everyone’s thresholds are different. For me it was back when Microsoft auto-upgraded my PC to Win 8, which was also when they started putting in hard-to-disable telemetry and bad UI. It sounds like Recall is the threshold for some other people.
Also don’t discount that MS’ market share is dominated by a ton of corporate users (who lack a choice) and casual users (who don’t care / are unaware), but at least anecdotally they’ve been losing the power users in my life, which if true in general which will have negative downstream effects for them moving forward (IT departments working to support alternatives, software developers refusing to build on Windows Server / MS software stack, etc.)
Why is Lemmy showing me news from the 00’s?
It’s not gonna affect their bottom line though. Microsoft are doing it because they know they can get away with it and drag the bar so low that they’d make RealNetworks circa 1999 look like privacy-respecting saints.
Your average Joe cannot afford the second mortgage needed to finance a MacBook purchase, and they’d have an aneurysm if presented with a Linux terminal.
And don’t even get me started on business and professional use. Many businesses rely on proprietary or even bespoke software that doesn’t run well, sometimes not even at all on Linux. FOSS alternatives are often dogshit. And before you dispute me on that fact, can you name one web designer that would use Affinity Photo, GIMP or PDN over Photoshop? Or could you name one person that prefer AbiWord, OpenOffice or LibreOffice to Microsoft Word?
PC Gaming is one of those use-cases that has evolved by leaps and bounds… until you realize just how many multiplayer games rely on a form of anticheat. Many of these solutions are straight-up incompatible with Linux.
Well, getting their OpenID Signing Key for Azure Active Directory stolen was magnitudes worse in my opinion.
Microsoft lost my trust a long time ago. For the last 10-15 years, my only relationship with them is, “how much sh*t am I willing to put up with before I switch to something else?”
And CoPilot/Recall was the breaking point.
TL;DR:
- Windows Recall, part of Microsoft’s new Copilot+ PC initiative, has sparked major privacy and security concerns.
- The feature uses AI to capture and store screen data locally, allowing users to search for past activities using natural language.
- Despite assurances that data is not uploaded to the cloud or used by Microsoft, user trust is lacking.
- Microsoft has a history of practices that have eroded user trust, including obtrusive ads, ignoring user preferences, and requiring Microsoft Accounts.
- Users are skeptical, fearing future misuse of the collected data for advertising or AI training.
- Windows Recall reportedly stores data unencrypted, making it vulnerable to access by third-party apps and potential malware.
- The open nature of Windows amplifies these risks, unlike more secure systems like iOS and Android.
- Users have compared Windows Recall to spyware, with many threatening to switch to other operating systems like Linux or Mac.
- Microsoft’s attempts to keep the development of Windows Recall secret did not help build trust.
- Windows Recall will only be available on new Copilot+ PCs, requiring specific hardware not present in existing PCs.
- Users will have the option to disable the feature, but there are concerns about it being enabled by default.
- Despite security issues, the feature is effective in helping users find lost or forgotten data.
- It could improve productivity if trust and security concerns are resolved.
I don’t want to be the guy that always says Linux, but… …Linux
Outside of the “Microsoft bad” comments, this is a prime example of why big tech companies need to stop promoting AI leads to a position where they are able to have influence over initiatives outside of AI.
The worst thing to happen to basically every product/service in tech right now is AI. It’s made Google unreliable in the eyes of normal people for the first time in decades, it’s destroying trust in Amazon content across reviews and Kindle, it’s adding features to Facebook that no one ever wanted, etc.
