- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
The University of Rhode Island’s AI lab estimates that GPT-5 averages just over 18 Wh per query, so putting all of ChatGPT’s reported 2.5 billion requests a day through the model could see energy usage as high as 45 GWh.
A daily energy use of 45 GWh is enormous. A typical modern nuclear power plant produces between 1 and 1.6 GW of electricity per reactor per hour, so data centers running OpenAI’s GPT-5 at 18 Wh per query could require the power equivalent of two to three nuclear power reactors, an amount that could be enough to power a small country.
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That are 25 request per kWh. At 10 to 25cents per kWh that’s 1cent per request. That doesn’t seem to be too expensive.
Hmmm. Sure. But I find people don’t understand how much one kWh really is. A 500W drill can twist your arm. Imagine yourself twisting someones arm with all you got for a whole hour. Or idk. Either way it’s a lot of energy.
And then you think about how much more energy a car uses then a human does. And then you find out about hot water…
Which is why they’re giving everybody free access, for now.
Help me out here. What designates the “response” type? Someone asking it to make a picture? Write a 20 page paper? Code a small app?
Response Type is decided by ChatGPTs new routing function based on your input. So yeah. Asking it to “think long and hard”, which I have seen people advocating for to get better results recently, will trigger the thinking model and waste more resources.
So instead of just saying “thank you” I now have to say “think long and hard about how much this means to me”?
FFS, I have been using Claude to code, not only do you have to tell Claude to fix compilation errors, you have to point out when Claude says “it’s fixed” - “no, it’s not, the function you said you added is STILL missing.”
You’re absolutely right!
If you want it to really use a lot of energy on receiving your gratitude, sure I guess^^
Isn’t this the back plot of the game, Rain World? With the slug cats and the depressed robots stuck on a decaying world when the sapient, organic species all left?
Spoilers dude.
I didn’t know there was such a backstory
How the hell are they going to sustain the expense to power that? Setting aside the environmental catastrophe that this kind of “AI” entails, they’re just not very profitable.
Look at all the layoffs they’ve been able to implement with the mere threat that AI has taken their jobs. It’s very profitable, just not in a sustainable way. But sustainability isn’t the goal. Feudal state mindset in the populace is.
Not just”not profitable”, they don’t make any money at all. Loss only.
There’s such a huge gap between what I read about GPT-5 online, versus the overwhelmingly disappointing results I get from it for both coding and general questions.
I’m beginning to think we’re in the end stages of Dead Internet, where basically nothing you see online has any connection to reality.
Well yeah, it’s a for-profit company. They exist solely to make money, that’s their entire goal.
It’s almost all marketing and has been for a while. ChatGPT peaked with 4o (and 4.5 if you used their API), 4.1 was a step backwards despite them calling it an improvement, and 5 was another step backwards.
They are not any closer to AGI, and we’re not going to see AGI from LLMs no matter how much they claim just how close we are to seeing AGI.
The stock market is barely connected to reality and that is required to be updated every 3 months by every single company. Just imagine what the internet’s going to be like.
People who fawn over generative AI haven’t tried to use it for more than 5 seconds. I wish it could run a ttrpg game for me or even just remember the details of its original prompt but its not even close.
The last 6 to 12 months of open models has pretty clearly shown you can substantially better results with the same model size or the same results with smaller model size. Eg Llama 3. 1 405B being basically equal to Llama 3.3 70B or R1-0528 being substantially better than R1. The little information available about GPT 5 suggests it uses mixture of experts and dynamic routing to different models, both of which can reduce computation cost dramatically. Additionally, simplifying the model catalogue from 9ish(?) to 3, when combined with their enormous traffic, will mean higher utilization of batch runs. Fuller batches run more efficiently on a per query basis.
Basically they can’t know for sure.
And it sucks even worse.
I think AI power usage has an upside. No amount of hype can pay the light bill.
AI is either going to be the most valuable tech in history, or it’s going to be a giant pile of ash that used to be VC capital.
That capital was ash earlier this year. The latest $40 Billion-with-a-B financing round is just a temporary holdover until they can raise more fuel. And they already burned through Microsoft, who apparently got what they wanted and are all “see ya”.
It will not go away at this point. Too many daily users already, who uses it for study, work, chatting, looking things up.
If not OpenAI, it will be another service.
Those same things were said about hundreds of other technologies that no longer exist in any meaningful sense. Current usage of a technology, which in this specific case I would argue is largely frivolous anyway, is not an accurate indicator of future usage.
Can you give some examples of those technologies? I’d be interested in how many weren’t replaced with something more efficient or convenient.
Technologies come and go, but often when a worldwide popular one vanishes, it’s because it got replaced with something else.
So lets say we need LLM’s to go away. What should that be? Impossible to answer, I know, but that’s what it would take.
We cant even get rid of Facebook and Twitter.
BUT that being said. LLMs will be 100x more efficient at some point - like any other new technology. We are just not there yet.
@themurphy @rigatti There is one difference … LLM’s can’t be more efficient there is an inherent limitation to the technology.
https://blog.dshr.org/2021/03/internet-archive-storage.html
In 2021 they used 200PB and they for sure didn’t make a copy of the complete internet. Now ask yourself if all this information without loosing informations can fit into a 1TB Model ?? ( Sidenote deepseek r1 is 404GB so not even 1TB ) … local llm’s usually < 16GB …
This technology has been and will be never able to 100% replicate the original informations.
It has a certain use ( Machine Learning has been used much longer already ) but not what people want it to be (imho).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble
There were certainly companies that survived, because yes, the idea of websites being interactive rather than informational was huge, but everyone jumped on that bandwagon to build useless shit.
As an example, this is today’s ProductHunt
And yesterday’s was AI, and the day before that it was AI, but most of them are demonstrating little value with high valuations.
LLMs will survive, likely improve into coordinator models that request data from SLMs and connect through MCP, but the investment bubble can’t sustain
Those users are not paying a sustainable price, they’re using chatbots because they’re kept artificially cheap to increase use rates.
Force them to pay enough to make these bots profitable and I guarantee they’ll stop.
Or it will gate keep them from poor people. It will mean alot if the capabilities keep on improving.
That being said, open source models will be a thing always, and I think with that in mind, it will not go away, unless it’s replaced with something better.
I don’t think they can survive if they gatekeep and make it unaffordable to most people. There’s just not enough demand or revenue that can be generated from rich people asking for chatGPT to do their homework or pretend to be their friend. They need mass adoption to survive, which is why they’re trying to keep it artificially cheap in the first place.
Why do you think they haven’t raised prices yet? They’re trying to make everyone use it and become reliant on it.
And it’s not happening. The technology won’t “go away” per se, but these these expensive AI companies will fail.
Well, if they succeed, it’s because of efficiency and lowering costs. Second is how much the data and control is really worth.
The big companies is not just developing LLM’s, so they might justify it with other kinds of AI that actually makes them alot of money, either trough the market or government contracts.
But who knows. This is a very new technology. If they actually make a functioning personal assitant so good, that it’s inconvinient not to have it, it might work.
And most importantly the Pandora box has been opened for deep perfect scams and illegal usage. Nobody will put it in the box again, because even if everyone agreed to make it illegal everywhere it’s already too late.
I have an extreme dislike for OpenAI, Altman, and people like him, but the reasoning behind this article is just stuff some guy has pulled from his backside. There’s no facts here, it’s just “I believe XYX” with nothing to back it up.
We don’t need to make up nonsense about the LLM bubble. There’s plenty of valid enough criticisms as is.
Thats actyally a fav rhetorical trick of mine when arhuing with consummatw bullshitters who have followers.
This figure is already not bad. 40 watt hours = 0.04kWh - you know kWh? That unit on your electric bill that is around $0.18 per kWh (and data centers tend to be in lower cost electric areas, closer to $0.11/kWh.) Still, 40Wh would register on your home electric bill at $0.0072, less than a penny. For comparison, an average suburban 4 ton AC unit draws 4kW - that 40Wh request? 1/100th of an hour of AC for your home, about 36 seconds of air conditioning. I don’t know that this article is making anybody “look bad” in terms of power used.
What exactly do you get for that power though?
The point is that it’s too much power for little gain in return.
Arguably, a great deal more than the energy you lose from opening the door to your house in the summer, once while the A/C is running.
Or, looking at it another way, an AI query+result can be just as valuable as a Tik Tok post / view.
I consider TikTok harmful, so you are right about your last sentence.
But my AC does not nor ever has actually consumed 4kW in an hour.
The average (US suburban 2200sq ft) home’s A/C does consume 4kW while it is cycled on, and in the hotter than normal months of summer it can run continuous duty cycle for hours on end.
You need better insulation then. That’s crazy. Also outdoor blinds.
Me, personally, we have trees and shade. So many subdivisions don’t, and they have dark colored roofs, and then homeowners do bone-headed things like adding “sun rooms” - lots of those in Houston.
We get upset when our electric bill passes $300 for the month, but our neighbors with the 3500 sq ft? They never see it under $400.
Tech hasn’t improved that much in the last in the last decade. All that’s happened is that more cores have been added. The single-thread speed of a CPU is stagnant.
My home PC consumes more power than my Pentium 3 consumed 25 years ago. All efficiency gains are lost to scaling for more processing power. All improvements in processing power are lost to shitty, bloated code.
We don’t have the tech for AI. We’re just scaling up to the electrical senand demand of a small country and pretending we have the tech for AI.
This is nonsense, an M1 runs many multiples faster and at much lower wattage.
And an LLM that you could run local on a flash drive will do most of what it can do.
What do you use your usb drive llm for?
Porn. Obviously.
I mean no not at all, but local LLMs are a less energy reckless way to use AI
Why not… for the ignorant such as myself?
AI models require a LOT of VRAM to run. Failing that they need some serious CPU power but it’ll be dog slow.
A consumer model that is only a small fraction of the capability of the latest ChatGPT model would require at least a $2,000+ graphics card, if not more than one.
Like I run a local LLM with a etc 5070TI and the best model I can run with that thing is good for like ingesting some text to generate tags and such but not a whole lot else.
How slow?
Loading up a website with flash and GIF in the 90s dialup slow… Or worse?
Basicly I can run 9b models on my 16gb gpu mostly fine like getting responses of lets say 10 lines in a few seconds.
Bigger models if they don’t outright crash take for the same task then like 5x or 10x longer so long it isn’t even useful anymore
So very worse.
Like make a query and then go make yourself a sandwich while it spits out a word every other second slow.
There are very small models that can run on mid range graphics cards and all, but it’s not something you’d look at and say “Yeah this does most of what chatGPT does”
I have a model running on a gtx 1660 and I use it with Hoarder to parse articles and create a handful a tags for them and it’s not… great at that.
Probably not a flash drive but you can get decent mileage out of 7b models that run on any old laptop for tasks like text generation, shortening or summarizing.
that’s a lot. remember to add “-noai” to your google searches.
This is my weekly time to tell lemmings about Kagi, the search engine that does not shove LLM in your face (but still let’s you use it when you explicitly want it) and that you pay for with your money, not your data.
Or just use any other better search like Bing or duckduckgo. googol sucks and was never any good. Quit pushing ignorant garbage.
googol sucks and was never any good.
Ha! Kids these days.
duckduckgo yes, but … bing?
Bing is for porn.
ddg is bing
I’m just going to ignore the AI recommendations, let them burn money.
i don’t judge you for that. honestly it matters fuck all at this point
Fucking Doc Brown could power a goddamn time machine with this many jiggawatts, fuck I hate being stuck in this timeline.
The team measured GPT-5’s power consumption by combining two key factors: how long the model took to respond to a given request, and the estimated average power draw of the hardware [they believe is] running it.
For reference, this is roughly equivalent to playing a PS5 game for 4 minutes (based on their estimate) to 10 minutes (their upper bound)
calulation
source https://www.ecoenergygeek.com/ps5-power-consumption/
Typical PS5 usage: 200 W
TV: 27 W - 134 W → call it 60 W
URI’s estimate: 18 Wh / 260 W → 4 minutes
URI’s upper bound: 48 Wh / 260 W →10 minutes
I was just thinking, in more affordable electric regions of the US that’s about $5 worth of electricity, per thousand requests. You’d tip a concierge $5 for most answers you get from Chat GPT (if they could provide them…) and the concierge is likely going to use that $5 to buy a gallon and a half of gasoline, which generates a whole lot more CO2 than the nuclear / hydro / solar mixed electrical generation, in reasonably priced electric regions of the US…
That doesn’t seem right. By my calculations it should be like 5¢. Can you show your work?
It is also the equivalent of letting a LED light bulb run for an entire day (depending on bright it is, some LED bulbs use under 2 watts of power).
I love playing PS5 games!
