- cross-posted to:
- linux_gaming@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux_gaming@lemmy.ml
Follow-up video to https://lemmy.world/post/32690521
Spoiler alert: the main reason he says the experience “hasn’t been great” is because shortly before posting the video his Linux install mysteriously broke and he had no idea why. Therefore, he recommended dual-booting Windows just in case.
Cue sea of comments explaining that the reason for the error he was getting was that Windows screwed up his bootloader (i.e. the problem was caused by dual-booting to begin with, LOL).
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average tech youtuber not knowing anything about tech
Hey, at least he’s up-front about it and didn’t type in
yes, do as I say!like Other Linus did.Complaining about Linus doing things like an inexperienced user when that is the whole point of the test is pretty stupid, honestly.
I would expect someone who knows just enough to follow troubleshooting using the command line but not knowing how powerful it can be would do the exact same thing in his position.
As I recall, the prompt was particularly clear about what was about to happen, hence the extra
yes, do as I say!response. Linus was either too stupid or too arrogant to realize that he was out of his depth and should consult someone with more experience.Ignorance and stupidity are very different things. This wasn’t a Chernobyl situation where the emergency scram button triggered a hidden flaw. This was a “PRESSING THIS BUTTON WILL IMMEDIATELY AND DEFINITIVELY NUKE, RUIN, DESTROY YOUR SYSTEM” situation.
Most people who has never dealt with Linux will ever understand that having to type a sentence signifies that it is an important message that needs to be read thoroughly. Its more likely for them to think its just a quirk of using Linux distros, such as using sudo.
Honestly, the average person would never figured that out unless they’ve had experience with it before. Most people can’t even read short error messages after something has gone wrong, let alone lines of text full of technical terms they have never seen before in the process of figuring out something as mundane as installing Steam.
I seriously think you guys are a bit out of touch with how non-technical people deals with their OS. The fact that you think its arrogance that made him not consult people instead of him playing the role of a non-technical person really says a lot about your own comprehension skills.
Do not pretend like Linus Sebastian is your tech illiterate grandmother. He’s a clown today, but he has had experience with computers in the past. Of all people, he should have known better.
Man, you’re really missing the point of that video. I guess when you want to hate on something, most people turn off the logical part of their brain.
Unfamiliarity with the system should make people more inclined to read shit carefully, not less!
That’s just fucking common sense, not elitism, and I make absolutely zero apologies for it.
That’s not the reality and you know it. If the fact that humans are generally stupid is news to you, you are just being ignorant. And thinking that your common sense applies to everyone is what makes you elitist.
No. Doing things because you’re inexperienced is one thing, but reading a very strongly-worded and scary message that explicitly told him that it was about to break his system and then doing it anyway is on another level entirely.
As much as I fucking cant stand him, I have to say… in that case, Most new users would do exactly what he did.
Computer users always get hit with big ominous warning messages that amount to nothing 99.9% of the time. IIRC the reason something happened that time wasnt because Linus ignored the warning message, but because of a known bug in that version of the distro that was known about and wasnt fixed in the installer for months, until the video came out, that caused the DE to be removed when uninstalling something else… Which is just pants on head and should have been fixed long before the video came out.
Besides, and I say this as a non-technical non-sysadmin linux user… the overwhelming amount of tech support for linux doesnt encourage knowing what commands do, it encourages copy and pasting… because almost all the tech support solutions I’ve ever found basically amount to “if you have X problem, copy Y command into terminal to fix it” with no explanation on why it works, just that it (hopefully) does.
Computer users always get hit with big ominous warning messages that amount to nothing 99.9% of the time.
This is yet another instance of blaming Linux for Windows’ bad behavior.
He said, on a topic, about a big ominous message on linux, that would have done nothing at all… if it wasnt for the bug known for months in the distro, that they refused to fix until it got bad press from a popular youtube video.
But yes, its windows fault. /s
Right, that’s my point: when Linux gives a big ominous message, it’s because it’s actually important. If the distro hadn’t had that bug, it wouldn’t have given the big ominous message.
Remember, the bug wasn’t the warning message itself. The bug was removing the DE when installing Steam, which the message correctly warned about. The warning message was appropriate and warranted.
It is Windows, and only Windows, that mis-trains users to ignore warnings because it issues so many spurious ones for benign situations.
Again, when you have no idea how much the command line can do, and the instructions is literally for something as basic as installing Steam, nobody would expect to nuke their DE.
You’re also expecting that people should be able to parse an long ass message full of technical terms that they are unfamiliar with the first time they see it.
You guys really overestimate how competent the average person is. Linus was playing the perfect role of a “knows just enough to be dangerous” noob.
What do you think the problem is? Grub is present so windows update cannot be the culprit on this one. Initramfs works, but the root partition is not found. Both the primary and fallback. A broken update sequence? Would be nice to get the logs
I had Fedora bork up on me on each kernel update for a while and force me to rebuild… something. It’s been a while, I forget what the underlying issue was.
People like to claim Windows updates are more problematic than Linux updates because they install without permission, but it’s not really true. For one thing, Bazzite updates in the background just like Windows does (it just does it on user reboot as opposed to forcing a reboot).
What is your point?
That this is type of issue is relatively familiar territory, at least in Fedora-based distros. I can’t promise it’s the exact same known issue I encountered in the past, but it sure seems similar.
I had a problem with dualbooting windows because i always have to shutdown it using shift+shutdown, because windows kidnaps my ssd and hdd.
Also had issues with dual booting until I removed the Linux drives when installing Windows to make sure the boot partition was created on a separate drive.
Zero issues since.Biggest downside is Windows always rebooting after updates, and if I don’t sit there, it boots back into Linux as it’s the first option in Grub.
At least now I have the option to fire up Windows when I can’t solve something in Mint.
Biggest downside is Windows always rebooting after updates, and if I don’t sit there, it boots back into Linux as it’s the first option in Grub.
This is why I edited Grub to not timeout and instead wait for me to make a selection.
Can be done by running
sudo vim /etc/default/grub
Can also use nano or some other editor than vim too.
And changing GRUB_TIMEOUT=X to GRUB_TIMEOUT=-1 or a larger value to give you more time if you prefer to have it timeout eventually. -1 disables the countdown to auto select entirely.
And then run
update-grub
To have the changes confirmed.
I do this because I use Windows about half and Linux the other half so letting me make my decision works best for me.
You can also set up Grub to default to your last boot. I forget the exact setting name, but it’s a Google away. That’s what the guy in the video did, too.
Also, if you’re using EFI, you can use something like efibootmgr to select which entry to use on next boot up. Handy if you want to swap between OS installs without breaking out a remote KVM or hassle with GRUB monitoring all your drives.
efibootmgr(8): change EFI Boot Manager - Linux man page https://linux.die.net/man/8/efibootmgr
Honestly, the whole thing should be way more standardized, handled directly from BIOS without having to interrupt the boot and support fast booting instead of bringing up a menu every time. It’s weird that crappy, cheap ARM handhelds with Android/Linux dual boot handle this better than x64 devices
On Linux you can already boot to Windows (Bazzite even installs a script that does this into your Steam library to enable easy switching from Game Mode). I am not sure if there’s something readily available to do this on Windows, but either way it’s a massive waste of time to boot into one thing to then boot into the other. It’s even a waste of time to have to step through any menus at all to select a boot option.
I had this issue on my media pc which I wanted to be booting into mint, but grub would throw it to windows on reboots which made it super unreliable. Finally found how to edit grub (really wish there was a simple ui for it but it must be pain, I guess). Hope it helps.
Thanks mate, but the only way to fix it would be to have Windows as the prio boot OS, which just hurts too much hehe.
I’d rather sit and wait and choose it manually after updating.
I also dual boot, to separate physical drives, and the Ubuntu bootup process is constantly breaking. Every other restart I have to fix it so that it will boot. Having said that, gaming on windows was untenable. Every single game would crash between 1min and 30min, always with an nvlddmkm error code showing in the event viewer. Using a laptop rtx 4070. I tried absolutely everything to fix it. I even tried buying new ram sticks. Same error. I started to think something was wrong at the hardware level.
Since switching to Ubuntu, I haven’t had a single crash, playing every game on steam with maxed out graphics. It works perfectly. Also I’ve noticed that booting into windows sends cooling fans into overdrive while booting into Ubuntu is quiet as a mouse. Fuck windows, it’s basically spyware at this point and it doesn’t even work.
I can’t get doom the dark ages to run at a playable frame rate on my Ryzen 9 / etc 5080 laptop.
Literally the only issue I’ve ever had with Linux gaming.
Another “Yes, do as I say” “techie”. I don’t understand why they don’t just stick to their windows and drop the act of even caring enough to use anything else. Thanks for highlighting another channel to avoid.
Epic fail. Laugh at this user.
How does that help anything? The channel is trying it out, a channel that is objectively more technically skilled than the average PC gamer. So if they can’t make it work, or can’t make it work seamlessly enough, then there is an issue. It reinforces the image that gaming on Linux is difficult, which frankly, it is.
His install is broken because Windows breaks the dual booting, and Microsoft has refused to fix it for a decade already…
I hate that the Linux community is so quick to fall into blame mode.
That user has an issue using Linux. It’s an issue that’s not uncommon and it does stop that user from using Linux.
As an user, does it matter who’s at fault that his Linux install isn’t working as expected?
Say you buy a brand new Fiat, and 5 kilometers out of the dealership the transmission just dies.
Are you going to say “Using this car sucks” or are you going to say “The subcontractor that made the clutch mechanism in that transmission sucks”?
If your car dies, you are not getting to work today. This sucks. You don’t care who is at fault, using an unreliable car sucks.
To get back to Linux: If some beginner goes through the trouble and fails, it’s very little help to call them out for being a beginner or to aim the blame.
OOP’s assessment is correct: Linux is nice, but there are pitfals for people who aren’t versed in all the things that can go when using Linux. And yes, this one was caused by Windows, but that really doesn’t help a novice user who’s Linux won’t boot anymore.
fix what? that’s a feature.
channel name JayzTwoCents
look inside
tfw opinions aren‘t even worth a penny
I tried nothing and I’m all out of options.
I’ve been dual booting for ages without any windows-caused issues. is it windows 11 specifically that messes with dual booting or did I accidentally work around it by installing Linux to a separate ssd
Different disk is fine. Same disk, Windows is a little colonialist ass and on every update will rewrite the boot partition, screwing up Linux.
no idea if this still applies. but a long time ago i would still dualboot and thought i was smart: 2 smaller exchangable system disks (linux & windumb) + 1 large fixed data disk. during some windows updates it would make the data disk bootable and put its fucking bootloader on it.
i would get a blue screen while booting linux and the joy of removing a boot partition on my data drive.
If the data disk is configured as a primary disks and has a boot section, it will still do that. Windows wants to make sure it will load no matter which disk the PC decides to boot.
Yeah, if you’ve got two EFI partitions on separate disks and one is for Windows while the other is for your Linux, you’re good. Windows likes to reinstall its bootloader which sets it as the default and sometimes overwrites the Linux bootloader, but not if it’s on a different EFI partition, then it doesn’t “know” about it.
People need to stop watching this clickbaiting asshole. No shit kernel anti cheat doesn’t work in Linux, it’s been a thing forever, that’s it gonna change. Did he use mesa or amdgpu? RADV or proprietary? Wasn’t that long ago that windows had similar problems. Not surprised the windows and Nvidia shill doesn’t do basic research.
Did he use mesa or amdgpu? RADV or proprietary?
I gotta admit I don’t understand why the best option isn’t used by default? Like when I go to download drivers off AMD/Nvidias websites there’s just one option to pick for gaming, I don’t have multiple options I need to research.
Thank you for including the spoiler. This tech vlogger’s irresponsible headline would normally have earned a downvote from me.
So a tech youtuber didn’t both to do the very basics of research before trying and failing at something? Color me surprised.
the idea that you can just jump to linux with zero research needs to go
- no you can’t have every game and program you’re used to
- no you can’t translate windows or mac knowledge
- yes you have to know what partitions, desktop environments, distros, and other bunch of terms mean
- yes you may have to type terminal commands (no one complains about ipconfig when figuring out whether it’s ISP or DNS problem)
- yes there are a bunch of shit tutorials online with copy-paste commands that don’t work
For the life of me I cannot fathom why that crowd doesn’t just switch to an Apple ecosystem when leaving Windows. The entire design philosophy is intended to cater to non-tech savvy people, and to keep them that way. Not saying every Apple user is non-tech savvy, but it is built to be stupid simple to use for anyone.
This YouTuber’s “I can install Linux but abandon it because I can’t figure out why it won’t boot anymore” mentality shows his own limitations.
Buy an Apple if you want to leave Windows, but have no interest in becoming proficient enough to use Linux as a main driver.
A lot of Mac knowledge can translate. I learned the basics of bash on Mac OS X. I also kept my boot partitions on different drives before I switched to Linux only(I was never Windows only or even Windows Primary).
Honestly, in that case, don’t expect mass adoption. Simple as that.
If the idea is to keep Linux as a niche, then that’s fine. But if you/the community want Linux to rival Windows/Mac, than these are the exact bullet points that must change.
I want to make sure I am understanding what you are intending to communicate correctly. At first I thought you were basically saying, “normies need to get good”. But in reflection you could be attempting to say, “Linux advocates are communicating unrealistic expectations which lead normal people to frustration and disappointment.” Or is your intent something else?
I’m not OP, but I agree with the latter.
Go in expecting to need to learn some stuff, and you’ll probably need to learn less than you expect. Set aside a couple hours for the setup process, you probably won’t need it, but you might. Figure out where to go for help before you start. Leave yourself a backup plan in case you don’t finish.
Linux is pretty easy to use these days, but it’s a new thing and will take getting used to. Expect the worst and be pleasantly surprised when things work out.
This is what burned me. I was promised that Unraid would be easier than windows. Dozens of people all promising me that I would have fewer issues, and I would never need to touch the CLI, and it would take me an afternoon to set up. I have spent 200+ hours on this thing. It’s finally where I want it to be, but if I never, ever touch another Linux OS again I will die happy. If I had gone in with different expectations I would have had a VERY different experience. I wouldn’t have thought that every issue I faced was me being dumb. I have since learned that my experience is totally normal, and I’m pissed off at the people who lied to me.
Yeah, Linux is definitely oversold.
I get where people are coming from, if you say it has a learning curve, fewer people will try it, and a lot of those people would’ve had a fine experience. But those that have a rough time will convince others to not bother.
I think it’s much better to undersell it and have people be pleasantly surprised.
100%. I’m not sure if it would have put me off, but I wouldn’t be as bitter as I am now.
And the next part of the equation is that when you go online to ask for help, people tell you you are a noob and it’s a skill issue.
Well…
What lunatic recommended Unraid to you, lol? Setting up Linux mint is easier than installing Windows. And it‘s free, reliable, open source and not stuffed full of bloatware and subscriptions. Please give it a try if you ever need a new OS
I have 15 HDDs and like unstriped RAID. My options were SnapRAID on Windows or Unraid. TrueNAS only offers striped RAID, and I am not aware of an unstriped RAID feature in Mint.
bit of both i guess? “normies need to get good” could be diluted into “do your research before going to linux”, which in most sensible online discussions is already the recommended way: test things out in a VM, try out different DEs, practice configuring things, finding alternatives to your current workflow, etc etc. it’s a harder sell than “just switch to linux” but IMO it’s absolutely necessary
but my comment is more of a reaction to influencers not doing that at all and making le funny challenge of jumping to linux blind and breaking shit because it’s good content and “trying out linux” is still trending
problem is they must be getting this idea that “linux is so easy and fun and seamless and you don’t have to research anything” from somewhere, which i do think is probably way more from people in their audience hyping up linux and not necessarily the wider linux community but these voices gotta be out there
Tbf none of the points you listed are negative to me. I mean how boring would linux be if it was just go to [random site] and paste the commands into the terminal? There would be no brain training involved, no way to get better at computers.
Most people use an OS to do things, not to do an OS.
It’s like with cars: There are some car nerds who tune their own engine control parameters and replace broken transmissions and engines themselves.
But for most people a car is used to get to work (or other places) not to play with them.
And while there’s nothing wrong with using an OS as a hobby because you love debugging things, it would be strange to expect that everyone wants to play with an OS instead of using an OS to accomplish something.
As someone who games on Fedora as my main OS, we need to stop pretending that Linux gaming is all sunshine and rainbows.
Yes, fuck Windows, and it probably did fuck his boot loader, but it doesn’t invalidate his other poor experiences he had with the OS.
Hell, I don’t think that even that was necessarily an invalid experience just because it was caused by Windows. Dual booting is a thing people have to do, especially if they want to play the games that just don’t work on Linux. Even if you don’t like the games personally, they are huge and a lot of people want to play them. Even my main Linux group dual booted recently to play the BF6 beta.
Being elitist and calling people stupid because they had a bad experience will do nothing but hurt Linux gaming. Instead of calling JayzTwoCents stupid because he dual booted for a valid reason, explain alternatives that he could have done to prevent the issue. If we want to grow as a community, we need to provide actual helpful feedback, not by being toxic.
The real problem is people refusing to learn a new workflow. Which is why anyone would need Windows and dualbooting. Yes you can’t tun every software on Linux that you can on Windows and vise versa; which is the whole damn point. There is software which lets you do the same thing just in a different way - but no one wants to explore the option, if it doesn’t look and work exactly the same, people run away.
I play on Linux. I can count on one hand what games won’t launch. One of them was my main game and their decision to drop Linux off a cliff last year has just grown my hatred for them and Microsoft, which I think is a much healthier and normal response than to submissively bend-over backwards and rush to install Windows which is exactly what they were counting on like we’re some kind of sheep; like all the dual booters out there licking boots.
Being a contrarian doesnt mean you are correct by default.
You know most people play games as a fun leisure activity. Telling them that they need to do a ton of work just to participate is going to be a hard sell except to a relatively small group of people. That is a large factor in why so many people buy consoles.
Oh no, I have to tinker a bit to play video games, the HORROR!
Not to be a contrarian, but this notion that what people need is a frictionless existence, and anything but. Could and should not be expected. Has already led us to a situation were the new generations, in the first time in history, are dumber an less technologically adept.
We need to change this idea. And start asking people to put in some effort.
You have missed my point. People are already putting in effort at their jobs. When they do get time to relax they don’t want to be required to do a second job.
If this was a car community you would be telling me that everyone needs to know how to do their own oil changes. If this was a baking community you would say everyone needs to make their own bread. A gardening community would say growing vegetables.
These can be valuable and rewarding skills, but just because it is important to you doesn’t mean it should be required of everyone.
Haven’t you seen the folks on linkedin? They are bragging about letting AI do their job.(Im not talking about the manual labourers and such.) Just today I learned that doctors using AI to identify cancer are getting worse at identifying it themselves. And yes you should know how to change your oil, bake your own bread and grow your own vegetables. You should also know why the sunset is red and that snails don’t die from eating poisous mushrooms because a liver is required to metabolise it.
YouTuber desperate for those views concocts a story that will resonate with their viewers so they will watch his YouTube ads Then carefully crafts a video that happens to tell that preplanned story that confirms his viewers prejudices. YouTube makes gobs of money. YouTuber makes some too. This is not a Public Service Announcement. Every viewers time is wasted.
I do a lot of sailing and none of the installers work on Linux. 100% windows and sometimes they have Mac versions.
So, I need a windows machine to do some work and transfer the installed game to my Linux machines.
The amount of work necessary is not conducive to the chill gamer lifestyle I have cultivated for 40+ years.
There are Linux repacks too
I’ve had to occasionally tinker to get stuff working, but I never had an installer that just didn’t work.
Heroic launcher has always worked well for me in that regard.
I’ve only ever had one repack completely fail to install and I just got an unpacked dump of the files and installed the crack manually.
