Lol. Right after Microsoft added sudo to windows.
That wasn’t the “sudo”, MS just named something else “sudo”.
That’s rich, coming from a company that sued a child whose website domain name was mikerowesoft.com. (His name was Mike Rowe, and the site was about the software he made).
Between this and the pip install break all system packages
This has to be about the dumbest change I could possibly gather in the last 20 years of computing. I can’t even imagine breaking this many things all at once. I’m still dealing with the side effects of people’s installers from docker-compose and the pip problems - ansible will just never be the same again. Now this.
How do your Python problems relate to a sudo/run0 discussion?
Well I guess eMacs has a real challenger these days but systems does everything poorly
Fuck off Poettering. Stop trying to absorb the whole system.
He’s trying to turn Linux into Windows NT. And Microsoft hired him as a reward for doing so.
The vast majority of Linux users consider systemd as a good thing because it apparently makes system administration easier. They also don’t agree that systemd is monolithic, because it’s actually designed modular.
But of course there are detractors. The only thing I like about systemd is its declarative service definition and parallel service startup. But if I wanted to run an OS with bloated and inscrutable software (even with the source code), my choice wouldn’t be Linux or Systemd.
I also routinely switch parts of my OS. This is harder with systemd. Although it is modular, the modules are so tightly coupled that it will prevent the replacement of modular components with alternatives. Frankly, I think systemd is killing the innovation in system component development.
because it’s actually designed modular
Oh? Try to use systemd without logind or journald. logind isn’t so bad, but journald was bad enough, that I gave up with systemd.
I use Gentoo with OpenRC. So my position in this matter should be clear. Anyway, check the last paragraph again to see what I think about systemd’s modularity.
Yes. I agreed with you. But I made it sound like something else. Bad wording on my side.
As I’m too Gentoo openrc user. I also use seatd+greetd instead of (e)logind and replacing sysvinit with openrc-init. The availability of choices made me do it!
Oh! I misunderstood. Sorry! Glad to meet a fellow Gentoo here!
Yeah… Not sure how everyone lets them get away with calling it “modular” when it’s next to impossible to swap out the modules
Hey Lennart, I have a good addition to your project, it’s called
myballsdand it’s a daemon that automatically formats your drives and replaces them with images of my cock and balls every time you have a shit ideaMaybe give it a whirl, maybe you’d stop with your dogshit ideas
Anyway i prefer doas btw
sudo provides
sudoeditorsudo -ewhich allows me to use vim with my user configuration btwJust symlink your user config to root, nothing at all wrong with that.
Then the editor, all extensions, language servers, etc. are all running as root.
Not-invented-here
It does something different and doesn’t ask to replace sudo everywhere. You brainless trashtalkers can’t even read an article before you judge.
Read the article.
Coming up:
systemd-antivirusdHear me out, breathes in, “Linux defender”
Linux Defender for Torvalds365
Systemd is too egotistic to even mention Linux. They will simply name it
systemd-defenderd.Don’t believe me? See this!
McAlinux
Will this be an integral part of systemd, or will they release it as a separate thing? I mean, if I like it, but I’m not using systemd (I do use it, but I’m just thinking about it), could I use this run0 (horrible name) without having to buy into all of systemd?
it’s just a link to systemd-run which is a part of systemd, i doubt it works separately.
but, if you use s6 as an alternative init system, s6-sudo is a somewhat equivalent aproach to how run0 works (instead of systemd-run it calls s6-ipcclient)
Most systems ship with systemd
They were very specifically talking about ones that don’t.
The article says it works by messaging systemd to run the process as the given user, rather than being a SUID binary. So it wouldn’t work without systemd.
i’m fine with this nor do i have a problem with systemd in genereal
I never understood the hate, tbh. A lot of users don’t even care if Sysd is used, as long as it works. So… Since the majority of distros use it… I think it works enough.
I understand the concern about the future and we have seen overbloated projects have issues. In the long run though I will use what works best for me and only get into philosophical comparisons if im making the choice between relatively equal options.
It seems to me to be mainly from people who are dedicated to the Unix philosophy that programs should do only one thing, and do it well. Tying everything up into systemd doesn’t follow that. I don’t care either, and I don’t mind systemd, but some people care about it enough to throw paragraphs of hate on it wherever it’s mentioned online. And apparently it’s “bloat”, and to some " bloat" is worse than the devil himself.
My main issues are that it obfuscates things and seems to consume everything it can into itself.
Honestly, if it were more transparent and designed in a way to easily facilitate swapping out components with alternatives, I’d be a lot more okay with it.
I bet some of those people use neovim instead of the more unix philosophy ed.
If you dig deeper into systemd, it’s not all that far off the Unix philosophy either. Some people seem to think the entirety of systemd runs as PID1, but it really only spawns and tracks processes. Most systemd components are separate processes that focus on their own thing, like journald and log management. It’s kinda nice that they all work very similarly, it makes for a nice clean integrated experience.
Because it all lives in one repo doesn’t mean it makes one big fat binary that runs as PID1 and does everything.
This is what turned me around: investigating and realizing that it is following the unix philosophy, it’s just under the hood (under the other hood inside the bigger under the hood).
I think some of the hate is from the main systemd dev, Poettering, being so abrasive on social media. He’s got a hateboner for certain distros (which don’t ship with systemd as the default).
Me: Oh, I get it, this “Lemmy” website – it’s like The Onion but for nerds?
My fellow lemmings: No, they’re serious. run0 is real.
Me: Hah. The Onion, but for nerds! I love it.
This is fine, but why does everything need to be part of Systemd? Like, seriously, why can’t this just be an independent project? Why must everything be tied into this one knot of interdependent programs, and what’s going to happen to all of them when the people who are passionate about it and actually understand all the stupid ways they interrelate move on with their lives? Are we looking at the formation of the next Xorg? Will everybody being scrambling to undo all of this in another 20 years when we all realize it’s become an unmaintainable mess?
It seems a fairly explicit goal of systemd to redefine Linux as a unified platform rather than as a kernel that can run any one of many implementations of many different services. I assume this is not just the systemd lead but also a goal of Red Hat.
Personally, while I am ok with systemd defining itself as a single source for all this functionality, I hate that they are taking away ( or making it hard at least ) to have independent implementations of these services.
What Chinera is doing with dinit and turnstile is really interesting. It would be nice to have feature comparable approaches to the systemd monolith that distributions could choose from.
What Chinera is doing with dinit and turnstile is really interesting. It would be nice to have feature comparable approaches to the systemd monolith that distributions could choose from.
Link for other readers about Chimera Linux, dinit, turnstile : https://chimera-linux.org/development
It does make sense for me to have this functionality in systemd the way they want to go about doing this.
Okay, but why go about it that way? That can’t be the only way of making a viable alternative to sudo. Why does everything need to be part of one project? If you want to reuse code why not spin it out into a library so each component can be installed with just the libraries it needs and not the depending on the whole gigantic thing? KDE works that way. It’s obviously possible for some things, at least.
One of my favorite things about Linux is simply fiddling around and finding the things I like and don’t and just using the ones I do. I can’t do that effectively with systemd though. Sure, it’s theoretically modular, and there are even a couple parts left that can work independently, but mostly it’s just one big block of half an operating system that all gets lumped together into one gigantic mess, and I can’t effectively just use the bits I like. It’s kind of all or nothing, and then maybe being allowed to double up on some of the things I’d like to use an alternative to… for now. It just kinda sucks the joy out of using my computer, but trying to avoid it completely is a massive pain in the butt.
There’s no big dramatic thing wrong with systemd. Using systemd and being happy with it is a good thing. I do not object to the existence of systemd. Systemd is fine. It just makes me like Linux less is all. I am enjoying my time with my computer less than I used to, and the universal dominance of systemd is probably the biggest reason for that.
Systemd does a lot of things that could probably be separate projects, but run0 is an example of something that benefits from being a part of systemd. It ties directly into the existing service manager to spawn new processes.
Yeah, if all those complainers want something more modular, they’re free to push for protocols that allow to leverage existing components while also allowing for them to come from multiple vendors.
Systemd does a lot of things that could probably be separate projects,
I dont get the hate for this - Linux is full of projects that do the same thing: coreutils, busybox, kde, gnome, different office suites, even the kernel itself. It is very common for different related projects to be maintained together under the same project/branding with various different levels of integration between them. But people really seem to only hate on systemd for this…
Systemd likes to break standards. That’s a big reason
What standards? The old init systems were a loose collection of shell scripts that were wildly different on every distro. Other tools like sudo also broke the established standards of the time, before it you had to login as root with the root password.
Even gnome and KDE have their own themeing standards as well as other ways of doing things. Even network manager is its own standard not following things that came before it. Then there are flatpack, snaps and app images. Not to mention deb vs rpm vs pacman vs nix package formats. Loads of things in Linux userland have broken or evolved the standards of oldern times.
Systemd breaks its own standards. Oh, were you making a replacement for this component of systemd that does some things the systemd version doesn’t? Well the latest version of systemd just changed the Unix socket protocol that it uses to communicate with the rest of systemd from text based to binary. Sorry for the lack of warning.
@AVincentInSpace @nous I’ve always disliked the arrogance of the lead Dev & the inexorable incremental usurping of Linux functionality. I’m deeply uncomfortable with so much being absorbed into a big binary black box
And fragmentation of projects is what caused the xz security incident.
I guess for me the difference is that the kernel is just way beyond what I can understand and has never had any viable alternatives, gnome I really don’t like, and everything else you listed is just collections of simple stuff that aren’t actually very interdependent. Systemd is a giant mess of weirdly interdependent things that used to be simple things. Sure, some of them weren’t great, but every major distro abandoning all of the alternatives feels like putting all of our eggs in one basket that’s simultaneously getting more important and more fragile the bigger it gets.
Except desktop environments - they are far from a simple loosely collection of simple stuff. They coordinate your whole desktop experience. Apps need to talk to them a lot and often in ways specific to a single DE. Theming applications is done differently for every toolkit there is, startup applications (before systemd) is configured differently, global shortcuts are configured differently by each one… If anything it is something you interact with far more than systemd and has far more inconsistencies between each one. Yet few people complain about this as much as they complain about systemd.
Systemd is a giant mess of weirdly interdependent things that used to be simple things.
They used to be simple things back when hardware and the way we use computers were much simpler. Nowadays hardware and computers are much more dynamic and hotplugable and handle a lot more state that needs to persist and be kept track of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo is a great talk on the subject and talks about why systemd does what it does.
Never had an issue.
Might look for a replacement should an issue arise.
Been driving Linux since sarge.
I’m not systemd user, and I generally see this absorbing as much as possible as a terrible practice. I don’t usually comment on systemd stuff, since I’m happy just not being forced to use it.
However, even though I don’t use it, the decision of people managing systemd really affects non systemd users. See by succeeding in getting all major distros into become systemd distros (somehow now governed by RH, if anyone cares), everything systemd absorbs tend to leave alternatives sooner or later deprecated, or abandoned.
Even autofs is no longer part of some official repos, given systemd has its own auto mount/unmount functionality… And there are several other examples…
At any rate, hopefully the more bloated systemd, doesn’t make it the more vulnerable. And also hopefully, doesn’t make life worse and worse to non systemd distros and users…
BTW, before
sudothere wassu, so a life withoutsudois possible, :)I personally don’t have a problem with run0 over sudo, however, I don’t want to have to remember to use a different command on the terminal. Just rename it “sudo”, and do the new stuff with it. Just don’t bother me having to remember new commands.
You can uninstall the sudo application and add
sudoas an alias forrun0in your shell initialization script. That’s better than them renaming run0 to sudo, because that will prevent people from running the real sudo if they want it.You can create aliases
