A profound relational revolution is underway, not orchestrated by tech developers but driven by users themselves. Many of the 400 million weekly users of ChatGPT are seeking more than just assistance with emails or information on food safety; they are looking for emotional support.
“Therapy and companionship” have emerged as two of the most frequent applications for generative AI globally, according to the Harvard Business Review. This trend marks a significant, unplanned pivot in how people interact with technology.
ChatCBT
If it had the memory for that, it might be useful. Plus another handful of caveats.
Revolution my ass. LLM make for poor psychologists.
Well. Not very different from “opening up” to hashish fumes or Tarot cards or Chinese fortune cookies.
And robotic therapists are a common enough component of classical science fiction, not even all dystopian.
For the record, I agree that the results suck. Everything around us is falling apart, have you noticed?
You can do more with less with 1% deadly error rate, and you can do much more with much less with 10% deadly error rate. Military and economic logic says that the latter wins . Which means the latter wins evolution.
And we (that is, our parents and grandparents) have built a nice world intended for low error rates, because they didn’t think such a contradiction between efficiency and correctness will happen, or they thought that it’s our job to root out our time’s weeds, loosely quoting Tolkien, and they have rooted out theirs as well as they could.
Which means that nice world doesn’t survive evolution.
Maybe short term and in a ultracapitalist society. But entrusting your most inner fears and hurtings to a company is not GDPR compliant, even less so with the more caring social economies.
Of course men will go to an AI for their problems, they can’t fathom going to a woman for honest advice.
And as a result, they gaslight themselves with a worse version of ELIZA.
they can’t fathom going to a woman for honest advice.
Honest advice may not be good advice. I could tell a person “go kill yourself”, and be VERY honest about it. Yet it’s not good advice, now is it?
Of course men will go to an AI for their problems, they can’t fathom going to a woman for honest advice.
This seems a bit far-fetched, don’t you think? There could be so many reasons as to why someone would rather use AI than going to another person for advice (this is not just about women).
Honestly, as someone who actually went to therapy and yes, my therapist was a woman. It’s was quite tough to open up and be vulnerable.
I think for some people using AI, they might feel as if they’re not that vulnerable because it is not a person. However, they don’t realize that there’s data is being gathered.
And as a result, they gaslight themselves with a worse version of ELIZA.
With this, I can’t figure out whether you’re serious, trolling or just writing randomly.
Naturally. We were beaten up and ostracized if we showed weakness when we were kids. You CAN’T be sharing your feelings like that to another human.
a lot of therapists and psychs are also useless for helping men. because they are women and they are basically only trained to deal with women’s issues and only see women’s emotional processes and processing as ‘valid’. there is this default bias that men’s emotional processing is ‘flawed’.
imo with mental health professionals all my ‘issues’ were blow way out of proportion. i only had one therapist who actaully helped me was a man and that person helped me understand that ‘not everything is your fault’. when all the other therapists/friends/family always 100% told me everything that happens to me is entirely my fault. they also told me it was normal/healthy to vent my feelings by doing productive things (like writing, exercising, relaxing), rather than viewing that as ‘not addressing the problem’.
the issue with so much of this crap is that not only does nobody want to talk to men, it’s that they don’t want to listen and/or the tell us we are ‘talking wrong’. even when we do talk to people, there is only a tiny window of acceptable things we an talk about and way we can talk about them.
a woman can burst into tears over any little thing and everyone wants to help her. a man bursts into tears over his father dying of cancer and all the sudden everyone wants to tell him his reaction is too intense and he should be thinking of how he is making other people feel.
Therapy is just littered with bad therapists, that do more harm than good and give the practice a bad name.
For every 1 good therapist, there are probably 10+ bad ones.
It can be a fucking ordeal to navigate, financially and emotionally, to try and find the one good one.
My worst experience was a therapist which charged me 300 dollars a session to do nothing but talk about how amazing they were, and that I need to just suck it up and be amazing like they are, afterall, it was so easy for them.
Amen.
There is a boatload of bad therapists and bad therapy out there. And sadly it gets a lot more traction and popularity because well… it’s simplistic and easy. It’s the fast food of therapy.
Good therapy is hard and long and complex. And most people simple don’t want to deal with that. They want the diet pill version of therapy. Just make the bad feelings go away, and give me more good feelings.
I don’t think enough analogies are drawn between physical vs mental health. Anyone knows that legit physical health is a long and boring process that takes a lot of discipline and time. Mental health and wellness really isn’t any different. Therapists should also be more like physical trainers… you need to have a specific goal in mind and work towards that goal and really and the endgame should be to no longer need the physical trainer/therapist
Sadly in our economic system the incentive for a lot of people is the opposite and many bad therapist/trainers just want to generate dependency of their clients on themselves and as such they will indulge their clients worse habits to keep them hooked.
Yeah.
and there needs to be more oversight and punishment for objectively bad therapists. and I dont mean bad as in their program didnt work for you, i mean bad, like ones that spend an entire session fellating themselves over how awesome they are, or tell you that they arent here to listen to you bitch and moan about your problems (someone I knew had a therapist say that to them) or whatever other objectively awful things bad therapists too.
and there needs to be more education about therapy, and how there are many different styles and approaches… and not all work for everyone, The system should incentivize people being able to tell their therapist they appreciate their time, but it doesnt feel like their approach is working, and get refered to a different one with a different approach without drama, extra cost, extra paperwork, or headache.
yes, there is an incredibly amount of ignorance, and a lack of oversight about the entire thing.
and so many internet jackasses who think they are experts about it, constantly pushing endless misinformation about every aspect of the process. esp the armchair diagnosing.
‘oh you had a bad day at work? you must have autism/adhd/depression/personality disorder’. or the fact anyone who was ever mean to you once in your life is a ‘narcissist’ or ‘gas lighting’ you.
the bias confirmation is out of hand. even in this very comment thread… soooo many people just banging on their bias confirmation drum and screaming ‘no no no no, men are bad and should just go away and solve their own problems without bothering anyone at all ever!’ as if that attitude isn’t the biggest reason men, especially young men, feel so trapped about their lives.
From the commenter above talking about negative experiences with talking to women and female therapists, I think the real solution is that men need to be proactive about supporting each other. Ranting and raving about how women are terrible and don’t know how to help men with an undercurrent of expectations that women (especially a romantic partner) should fix everything is simply not a tenable mindset.
As a woman who works in the medical field, I am keenly aware of my limitations when it comes to helping men with mental health issues. I think the real, effective solution is for men to start opening up to each other and supporting each other the way that women tend to do among themselves. I don’t mean this as “oh, men are terrible and they need to fuck off somewhere else with their problems”, I mean it as a sincere belief that the best people to help a man through emotional or psychological problems are probably other men given the shared socialization and perspective.
we need more male therapists and teachers. that’s what we need.
we have systematically removed male teachers from the school system due to the pedophilia panic.
Therapy is just littered with bad therapists, that do more harm than good and give the practice a bad name.
This has long been my experience. Although I believe that great therapists are out there, I have yet to encounter someone who didn’t blame me for the problems and cause me to feel rejected. The last person I went to looked over the intake testing and told me that nobody would want me as a client. No joke. I convinced him to let me stay but nothing happened and I burned out after 3 months or so and stopped going.
I’m sorry, you don’t deserve that.
If you have the mental energy/space, there are usually state therapists boards of some kind that you can call and report that behavior too… Too few people do that, though (and I’m including myself on that list), because a lot of people who seek out therapists are in a bad, vulnerable state and just don’t have the mental space to go through with reporting these assholes like they deserved.
I am on my fifth therapist. The first one I was seeing I kinda stopped going and then he retired, then I had a GF cheat on me and that was super brutal so I started going again.
First therapist was the stereotypical “feelings are okay!” kind of therapist, second one she just automatically assumed it was my fault and was basically telling me that cause I’m a man I should have done better, and the third just immediately jumped to medication like halfway through my first session.
Ended up with my current therapist and she’s great. I really like her because she regularly tells me that I’m just straight up being stupid or ridiculous and just need to handle my shit. Which works amazing for me.
This is pretty sexist.
Coping skills are not gender specific. How they help is different for each individual.
Women have their emotions unsupported just as much as men I know my mom didn’t have anyone caring about how she felt. Pretty sure that’s the stereotype of most American moms, they work all day come home cook and clean too.
I’ve never seen a man cry and be told to stop by anyone other than their own father. I’ve seen countless women be mocked for being emotional.
Sorry bro your comment is far too one sided to be taken seriously by me. Society is hard on everyone.
Yes they are. The genders are massivenly different in a lot of ways, and failure to acknowledge that is sexist.
But keep screaming that anything that disagrees with your particular narrative that women are great and perpetual victims of men and men are always bad, I guess? Because that’s not sexist, at all. lol
it couldn’t be that both men and women are people and both suffer from the same bullshit that they themselves perpetuate? nah.
But keep screaming that anything that disagrees with your particular narrative that women are great and perpetual victims of men and men are always bad, I guess?
Incel talk
read the whole comment
I did, but your main assertion that therapists are women, women don’t understand the male perspective therefore mental healthcare for men, (like talk therapy and counseling) are ineffective. Is not just completely wrong, it is dangerous. You start talking about how gendered biases effect the outcome of therapy. Ignoring that psychology is an incredibly complex, extremely well-documented, highly diverse and well regarded field of study, That’s like saying you wouldn’t trust a female virtuoso guitarist to perform ‘Master of Puppets’ because her female perspective would bias her against playing a solo written by a man. I am a man, I have had some success in therapy and counseling. I need more work, I’ll admit. But, all of the best practitioners I have worked with have been women. If you go to counseling, with a social worker, or a master’s student in psychology, yeah that can be a bit dodgy. But the idea that a registered psychotherapist, a doctor, would not be able to provide effective treatment because women can’t understand men is absolutely petulant. It is a myth, pervaded by a lot of influential male voices online and pop-psychology. It misunderstands the whole purpose of talk therapy and then it’s mis-characterised as “giving advice” and “putting biases in your head.” When psychotherapists are literally just there to help you confront and come to terms with things that you identify are affecting your ability to live. This stupid argument is always propped up by the same idea of women not being able to understand the male perspective, goes hand-in-hand with reported instances of mental health disorders. When really, the disparity between the sexes in terms of reported mental issues, is actually because people make arguments like yours. They say “all therapists are women and women don’t understand the male perspective” and “women report higher levels of depression and anxiety, therefore mood disorders are women’s issues.” When, in fact, it is men that dominate the field of psychotherapy, psychology and psychiatry. It is also us men that are killing themselves in record numbers, it is us that drive cars into street markets, it is us that shoot into crowds of people and then turn the gun on ourselves and it is boys that go online and see men like you. Making these harmful, disingenuous, ignorant arguments that makes them believe that their mental health is unimportant and that any pain, or issue they are having difficulty with is their problem and a flaw in themselves. Which just leads to self-victimisation.
I have read your comment, I have read all of your comments in this thread and your rhetoric is not just wholly emblematic of someone who has never done any meaningful work in therapy, it is dangerous and invalidating to kids who don’t have the experience and don’t know any better. That’s why you expand your argument, from “women therapists” to the entire field, because then it goes from sexist nonsense, to a broader discussion on the existence of human bias in the field. Conveniently, then you don’t have to confront the obvious flaws in what you’re saying. Personally, I wouldn’t trust someone, who has never so much as opened a textbook on abnormal psychology, to be a great judge of the existence of gendered biases in contemporary psychological care. I swear, if more men could be brave enough to admit that we endure psychological strain and experience issues through that strain that manifest in ways that effect our lives, we wouldn’t have Trump. Roe V Wade would be codified. So many of today’s problems exist because of the stigma round men seeking professional help with their mental health. So, yes I read your whole comment, I recognise your arguments and your perspectives. I say they are categoriaclly prejudiced, unhelpful, disingenuous and dangerous. When young men see this stuff and haven’t developed a sense of identity yet, they adopt this. Because this is what they think they’re supposed to believe, because boys look to contemporary male ideas and figures to emulate what they perceive to be masculinity. That’s how you get idiots on the Internet trying to discredit what is arguably the single most needed field of medicine in the world right now. When those men face crises, in their lives and need help, where do they go? If the main medical avenue of psychotherapy is seen as weak, or feminine or ineffective. Where do they go? That’s how you normalise male loneliness and hopelessness. You make young men feel like no one can understand what they’re going through, or help them understand themselves and navigate it. That is how you get drug addicts, that is how you get alcoholics. That’s how you get radicalisation, incels, domestic terrorists and victims of suicide. So, maybe just stop with the whole injustice over the feeling of being a man whose feelings are not understood. “But therapy doesn’t work, because nobody can understand me bro” and actually go to therapy. It might help you empathise with other people’s perspectives, perhaps you could analyse why you have these uninformed beliefs about this field of healthcare.
Which you seem so impassioned about discrediting and maybe it could even help you understand why it feels like no one gets you. Why you feel this is the correct way to approach mental health issues. The effect your words have on the well-being of impressionable members of our sex and what that stigmatisation of mental health problems and empathetic emotional recognition means, for men as a whole. What it means for our feelings about our place in society. It would help all of us, a lot more, than you maligning being told to “man up” whilst also perpetuating the concept of “man up” by spreading actual lies that psychotherapy doesn’t work for men. If society’s view of male mental health is so troubling to you. Maybe, don’t regurgitate misinformation about mental health that specifically invalidates the feelings and experiences of men struggling with addiction, or trauma, or grief, or psychological disturbance? Men, who would otherwise be comfortable enough in their masculinity and strong enough emotionally, to admit they have a problem to seek out professional help. Mental healthcare is healthcare, it is not a moral failing, personal flaw, or emasculating experience. If you actually gave a shit about men’s issues you’d understand that. Instead of just, first, trying to sound above it (by being incorrect about what therapy is and largely sexist), then posturing victimhood by co-opting men’s issues and trying to make the conversation about how society disregards male feelings and how nobody gets us. Your feelings are your own and you can feel however you’d like about anything. But you don’t preface that it’s your feelings, or your opinion based on shit you have absorbed from other male figures and spaces. You say this is how it is, before saying that therapists are women who are biased against men. Which is not true and reinforces this idea that men and women are completely diametrically opposed opposites and not just humans with the same breadth of emotions and very similar psychological conditions. Bi-polar depression doesn’t care what genitals you have. Trauma effects everyone. Mental health is NOT a gendered issue. Your reasoning throughout this entire thread is deeply flawed, divisive and doesn’t even make sense. If you feel like nobody cares about men’s feelings and men’s psychological and social issues, why is your position to take away one of the only recognised avenues by which men who are suffering can have those issues validated and explore their feelings in a safe, non-judgemental way? That is what you do when you lie like that and misrepresent the purpose and efficacy of psychotherapy.
You argue for positions directly in opposition to men’s issues. It’s quite extraordinary. I doubt everything you say about your experiences with therapy, just based on how you talk about it as a gendered issue. Also, the idea that people with biases put ideas in your head. Which is genuinely, just a fallacious red-pill talking point, that completely goes against the process and purpose of talk therapy. It allows men to live in denial about their actions and feelings and also validate those insecurities because nobody understands the male position, society doesn’t care and it’s not our fault. Which is all well and good, until your misrepresentation leads to someone’s death. So, I’ll say it again.
Incel Talk
Godamn son, didn’t have to nuke him
Well put, though.
Again. Coping skills are not gender specific they’re individual specific.
Nobody is screaming. And yes women are victims of men, have you spoken to any of them about it? Because it’s rather helpful to have those conversations.
Your comment is just very one sided and that’s the side that has the most power on the planet and as a member of that side I have just as much perspective of you and I’m here to say – nah to most of what you said.
Men’s #1 issue is lack of empathy towards women, they isolate half the planet from supporting them. There’s your solution.
Men’s inability to open up is a trained behavior, and is reinforced the most by the group doing the most child care: women. Everytime a boy that cries gets told to “man up” that stereotype is repeated to them. This produces an echo that reverbs through most of society, and especially children, who then mock peers that express emotions.
Women are training their own oppressors. There is enough blame around for all genders.
No that’s ridiculous and hilarious to say. I’d agree there is enough to blame everyone but you’re not, you’re blaming women.
I’ve never been told to man up by a woman, only men. Ridiculous to say that.
Is it really that ridiculous? Biologically seen, men’s properties are mostly due to genetic selection by women over thousands of years, if they are conscious about it or not. Men that are more attractive to women are preferred partners, and the selection pressure is mostly on men, since women have a much higher biological cost in pregnancy, therefore they are much more “picky”. That is pretty proven science, and this pressure is also found in culture: men have the attributes that women want them to have to give them an advantage.
It would only take 2-3 generations of women AND men doing child care to fix those issues by reinforcing openness and acceptance, but that takes education, esp in the human sciences, and education for the masses in the US has been dismantled long ago even before the current razing.
Your comment is just very one sided and that’s the side that has the most power on the planet and as a member of that side I have just as much perspective of you and I’m here to say – nah to most of what you said.
The only ‘side’ that has power is the wealthy. But keep banging your gender war drum, it probably gives you meaning and purpose in life to collectively blame 'me’n for all the worlds ills as if anyone who has a penis or wants a penis is entirely the same.
Drink that kool aid. yum yum. Donald Trump and his buddies thank you for your vote.
This is why you sucked in therapy and found it unhelpful. You’re pissy, jaded and uncomfortable with the concept of being wrong. Classic men shit.
Empathy would fix that, show that you don’t have to be so insecure because nobody else is that secure.
I thought it wasn’t gender specific? This is very sexist of you. wags finger
See how unhelpful that is to the conversation
The only ‘side’ that has power is the wealthy.
Pivot to wealth inequality because?
But keep banging your gender war drum, it probably gives you meaning and purpose in life to collectively blame 'me’n for all the worlds ills as if anyone who has a penis or wants a penis is entirely the same.
You are the one who made the issue about differences in sex and/or gender.
No wonder you made no progress in therapy. You’re completely obtuse.
i pivot to wealth inequality because the wealthy have all the resources and the rest of us don’t have enough.
that includes access to medical care and mental care. easiest way to get healthcare and therapy is to be rich so you can pay out of pocket and skip the limits/lines imposed by insurance companies.
a lot of people’s mental and health problems would also simple be alleviated by being able to have better food and a better work-life balance, both which are privileges of the wealthy that the less economically fortunate do not have access to.
these are straight facts, but i’m sure you’ll go into denial mode about how the poor and mentally unwell should just become their own therapists or something.
The genders are massivenly different in a lot of ways
and even if you think that the psychology of genders isn’t different, society treats genders differently and this either from the therapist who reacts differently to different genders, or from the patient who expects difference the point is the same: the construct of gender forces artificial difference, even if it’s not based in real “our brains are the same” science (which they aren’t - same as our biology isn’t quite the same)
equity is different to equality, and equity is actually what is needed
and even if you think that the psychology of genders isn’t different, society treats genders differently and this either from the therapist who reacts differently to different genders, or from the patient who expects difference the point is the same: the construct of gender forces artificial difference, even if it’s not based in real “our brains are the same” science (which they aren’t - same as our biology isn’t quite the same)
amen. brother, sister, or whatever preferred identity you want to be.
more treating people as individuals, less as treating them as stereotypes
Type anything to show you’ve never been to therapy: ^ this post
Literally in therapy but okay. Continue to reject my perspective and unsupport a fellow dude. Hypocrites.
Who said I am a dude?
Dude is nongendered everyone is a dude, nice try tho trying to pull this though
I don’t agree
dude people here just want to dunk on men because it makes them feel good about themselves. it’s that sad, and that simple. they don’t care about having empathy for men, men are not ‘people’. they are ‘others’.
they don’t really give a shit about… the issue at hand or the issues in the therapy industry/society that systematically disenfranchise many men.
unironically they want men to ‘man up’ and ‘fix’ the problems and never acknowledge them. Because that is inconvenient for them and their viewpoints.
because to them everything is a weird power struggle for their particular disenfranchised group, and they see anyone else acknowledging anything else struggles as a detriment to their cause. they lack the big brain thought that maybe lots of people suffer in lots of different ways and that it’s not some zero-sum game about ‘who suffers the most’.
as if men’s issue with the mental health care system… don’t also apply to to various other groups. of which any one person can belong to multiples of those groups.
Who is “they” because the “they” is other men.
So why are we like mad at women in the comments it’s nonsense. Why disparage healthcare and therapy it’s nonsense.
The issue at hand is one demographic struggles to extend empathy and therefore doesn’t get it in return. Make the first step, be empathetic in your life and I swear if you respond saying you are I’m gonna laugh because no, reading your responses you’re not, you’re very “you” focused.
There’s no power struggle, and any you sense is disenfranchised groups trying to get power back from, guess who?
Nonsense. The idea that all psychological issues are defined by gender is just the perspective of someone who’s never made any meaningful progress through therapy and/or counseling. Mental health is not a gendered issue and the repetition of this misconception just leads more people to give up without even trying. Yes, the lens of sexual identity comes into play, mainly in terms of cultural gender roles experienced in your part of the world. But, a well trained, experienced therapist will have these considerations while exploring issues you present with. I would argue, that psychiatrists (which is a much more male dominated field) are much more of an issue, because their objective is not to help you come to conclusions about yourself. It is to medicate your symptoms away to allow you to function. I am sorry you did not have a good experience yourself, but that is not reflective of therapy, or counseling as a whole and your characterisation of men vs women in therapy is sexist and sounds more like male influencer talking points than lived experience.
how many well trained therapists are there out there who are totally objective, compared to poorly trained ones who will often perpetual their harmful biases?
does anyone know? how do we even measure that? do we just assume people who have a certain degree from a certain program are inherently ‘objective’?
No, but that’s not the argument you were making before. You said therapists are women, women don’t understand the male perspective, implying therapy is ineffective. Ironically, those most hostile towards mental health treatment and self-analysis are often those with the least amount of time in counseling/therapy. Often the ones that would benefit the most out of it. The goal of a therapist is not to make you feel understood, a therapist is supposed to help you understand and come to conclusions about yourself, so that you can improve your life. Everything about coming to terms with neuropathy/trauma/coping mechanisms takes work and self-discipline. Hand-waving away people’s lived experience categorically stating that mental healthcare is ineffective, based on your own (I would bet) extremely limited experience with the field. That’s a lot easier. See how you’re asking me
how many well trained therapists are there out there who are totally objective, compared to poorly trained ones who will often perpetual their harmful biases?
does anyone know? how do we even measure that? do we just assume people who have a certain degree from a certain program are inherently ‘objective’?
As if that de-legitimises any point that I have made in response to those statements is childish. See how when it’s your narrow perspective you view it as reason enough to make blanket statements therapy, women and mental health. But when I offer mine you expand the scope to the point I have to contend with Bias over an entire field study and healthcare? That’s because your argument is weak, it’s a fallacy and it’s based on conjecture. I assure you, everyone has biases but again, therapists are there to help you come to conclusions, not give advice. The most harmful bias anyone can have is there own personal biases, which if left unchecked, allows the ego to feel secure, but stops you from growing as a person. That’s why you spaz out and attack therapy as an institution, because my drawing attention to and invalidating your biased opinion makes the ego feel threatened. That’s why you turn it from a conversation into a confrontation, because an argument you can win. If you acknowledge your position is incorrect/prejudice then that feels like a problem within the self. Which we can’t stand, because in a world of diffuse human interaction we are all the protagonist and we want people to like us. Which is an insight you would have if you had actually ever gone to therapy.
You can share them to fellow humans here now /c/reprieve@lemmy.zip
It’s stupid as hell to share any personal information with a company that is interested in spying on you and feeding your data to the nearest advertiser they can find.
Like seriously – are people using their brains or what?
Donald Trump was ELECTED TWICE. How is the stupidity of humanity not apparent.
Everything collects data. To extrapolate, it’s stupid to post on lemmy or shitter because the same will happen.
are people using their brains or what?
What? No. Seriously, are you new here? And by here I mean Earth.
I see idiots all around me. Everybody only interested in advancing themselves. But if we advanced the group, it would be better for EVERYBODY.
But we as a species are too stupid to build a society that benefits everybody.
So no. No brain use here.
I mean, the question war rhetorical. But I don’t disagree.
they need therapy, obviously they need help, and blaming them for not doing the most reasonable thing that might be unaffordable is even stupider.
blame predatory AI, openai could in a single afternoon make it so Chatgpt recomends or even helps you find a local therapist, instead of enabling this for profit.
Do they need therapy? Or do they need a world they can actually fucking live in?
It’s not like either one is available to them.
Neither is mutually exclusive, but most likely, both of those.
Just a note to say that the very first chat bot, Eliza, created in the 1960’s was a Rogerian therapist. I’m sure I remember a quote that the author was surprised that people opened up to it. I doubt anyone working in AI or chat technology would not know about Eliza so probably not a surprise to the industry… but maybe I am that old. [edits: facts/spelling etc]
Like… yeah?
Tried to open to a girlfriend about a sensitive topic - she got the ick.
Tried to make an appointment with a psychiatrist - got a very hateful rejection because of my place of birth.
Damn, even when I try to uplift a friend, I use phrases like ‘you got this before, you’ll get it now’.
I don’t know how to be a man, mentally
Getting rejection because of place of birth is worth getting that doctors license revoked, find out which body governs doctors in your location and file a complaint
Haha, not every place is in the US. Hopefully, I won’t face this kind of treatment as I do not live in that shit hole of a country
not every place is in the US
Thank Sithrak for that, jeez…
I never said it was the US, do rules and regulations governing doctors behavior not exist in your country?
IDK, really. As I said, I left the country where this psychiatrist lives.
Become a rich jacked sociopath.
That’s most manly thing you can do apparently.
Sorry, I will pursue happiness instead
Gee I wonder why ?
Maybe because it’s cheaper, easier and you’re not judged by other person.
You get what you pay for. Would these same people take cancer treatments from the same LLM?
Tbh, yeah. I’m a woman with an inoperable brain tumor, and I can completely understand why people would be reluctant to accept “nothing to be done” as a real answer.
If I thought I deserved to live, I’d probably talk to a LLM about it because this topic drags everybody down, and my therapist only sees me once a week. Though, I’ve heard its good for helping people not live, so maybe its worth a shot after all.
If I thought I deserved to live
But you do, everyone deserves to live.
Nobody deserves this kind of pain
Agreed. I’m just saying you deserve to live. Whether you do should be your choice, not your doctor’s or your government’s.
Part of me is ok with this in that any avenue to get mental health resources can be better than nothing. What worries me is that people will use ChatGPT for this sort of thing and these models will not be good help.
AI will reinforce delusional thinking. This is definitely not good.
more delusional people means more people that can make good music
Honestly of they could program a halfway decent AI therapist then art least it could take some of the load off our already insufficient mental health professionals by dealing with the lighter-weight cases, leaving the psychotherapists free to deal with the especially sick people.
The real problem becomes when bad or non scientific advice gets regurgitated to people over and over.
So… AI.
I’ll admit I tried talking to a local deepseek about a minor mental health issue one night when I just didn’t want to wake up/bother my friends. Broke the AI within about 6 prompts where no matter what I said it would repeat the same answer word-for-word about going for walks and eating better. Honestly, breaking the AI and laughing at it did more for my mental health than anything anyone could have said, but I’m an AI hater. I wouldn’t recommend anyone in real need use AI for mental health advice.
I’d say make a grilled cheese sandwich with quality Gruyere and Cheddar and take a nap after.
Men will talk to a chatbot instead of going to therapy
I go to a therapist and she treats me like a five year old.
I can literally just read her basic CBT training online, its not hard to find.
Then I do the excercises at home.
CBT being basically the only kind of approach to therapy that is actually empirically shown to reliably actually help most people.
Oh, you’re seeking an therapist qualified and specialized for high functioning autists?
There aren’t any in the state anymore.
…
I also think that using ChatGPT as a therapist is a fucking horrible idea, but uh, therapy in America is expensive, and often shit quality, oh and they just hand out pills that you’ll become dependent on, willy nilly, as opposed to trying everything else first and using that as a last resort.
CBT being basically the only kind of approach to therapy that is actually empirically shown to reliably actually help most people.
Learning that as an acronym for cock and ball torture before the therapy version makes me laugh every time.
My experience with women therapists was always about how I just wasn’t paying enough attention to other people when I pointed out that the people around me weren’t consistent enough to figure out their patterns. My one therapist who was a man explained that most people are just better at handling it when they were wrong and it is fine to be wrong, plus he helped me get diagnosed with ADHD instead of telling me to just try harder. I’ll bet there are some therapists who are women who are just as good as he was, but it became pretty clear that social norms are just as hard for people who specialize in behaviors to overcome.
what makes you think their gender is even relevant to their practice?
They are human beings who are more frequently able to relate to people who are similar to them based on shared experiences including social pressures. I don’t think either gender is unable to relate to the other gender, but social pressure is pretty strong and leads to common outcomes that involve pressures based race, gender, and economic status among others. Someone from a wealthy family is more likely to have a certain outlook compared to someone who had food insecurity as a child.
assumptions assumptions!
your presumption is that you’d be a better therapist, not a worse one, if you have more shared experiences with the client. that’s not something current evidence supports.
empathy means we strive to understand one another, not presume we understand them based on our own experiences. THAT is how bad therapy happens. and self-disclosure is a crutch for poor rapport building skills.
without the shared experiences, there can be more drive for empath and mutual understanding. the feeling of being understood by someone outside your group can be transformative.
In truth, positive outcomes have little correlation with therapist-client demographics. the demographic differential does alter what the course of therapy might look like, but not the outcomes.
your presumption is that you’d be a better therapist, not a worse one, if you have more shared experiences with the client. that’s not something current evidence supports.
That isn’t something I said or what I meant. Have fun arguing with your strawman.
okay then… I guess you’re making this an adversarial thing. I’m not sure what you intended to mean by bringing up shared experiences if you weren’t speaking to efficacy. but i guess i get why you made it adversarial: it’s frustrating being misunderstood. happens to me too. i just got a comment like that in my inbox just like it. I tried to share insights on how empathy and diversity contributes to positive outcomes in therapy, and i got this bizarre tone deaf debate bro response instead. cant always be understood, i guess. it’s fine. if you can’t find common ground, you can at least tell people off who are trying to have a pleasant conversation with you, that’ll at least ensure fewer and fewer people interact with you
Gender and sex broadly influence socialization and communication norms in many ways.
Yep, there are many cases where people do not conform to standard gender/sex norms… but the norms do still broadly, empirically exist or have a physiological basis.
Personally, I am all for breaking down gender norms and stereotypes and roles, and everyone being accepting of more variance and deviation from the norm, as many people do not neatly adhere to the patriarchal hetero dichotomy norm.
… But many still do.
Especially where I am right now, in a poor red state (had to move quite far to find somewhere I could afford to rent), where the education quality is laughable, and traditional gender/sex norms are very prevalent, there are no legal protections against discrimination against queer, disabled persons such as myself.
This is a great example of the kinds of problems that can crop up.
Fish doesn’t realize its swimming in water, kind of thing.
One approach is basically just gaslighting you:
The things that bother you and cause you trouble… well they just shouldn’t, and you should be fine with that.
The other approach is… you know, actually diagnostic, and can lead to… actually useful diagnosis, and thus more specified therapy and potentially other kinds of help.
As an autist, I’ve gone through many similar situations.
Sex/Gender independent… just 90% of therapists don’t get it all. Always try to diagnose me with something else, and its different every time.
Doesn’t matter that I’ve done the full RAADS V test and I’m basically off thr charts autistic, rofl.
Half of them have never even heard of it, don’t know anything about how diagnosing or providing help to an autistic person works at all, tend to think all autists are low functioning with very severe, general social deficits.
Then I get stuck on … well they will rephrsse what I just said, and say/ask it back to me, and I’ll say no, no I phrased what I said specifically, because I meant exactly that.
Then I see in their notes later that I am ‘arguementative’ or ‘agitated’ or ‘aggressive’… far, fsr more often if its a woman psych/soc worker/counselor who I am… not even ‘correcting’, just trying to not have them put words in my mouth.
Men tend to be less intimidated and more open to my insistance that I meant exactly what I said… and I am talking in the same voice, same mannerisms, same everything, with everyone.
Some women get it, most don’t, some men get it, most don’t.
… But the field is vastly disproportionately populated with women.
So the end result for a lot of guys is… hey look, another woman that isn’t really listening to me.
Then I get stuck on … well they will rephrsse what I just said, and say/ask it back to me, and I’ll say no, no I phrased what I said specifically, because I meant exactly that.
they’re checking their own understanding by giving you an opportunity to correct them. by rephrasing it identically, it doesnt build any new understanding.
does it not matter to you to be understood by others? maybe that’s why you’re bashing therapy on the internet, asking for CBT worksheets instead of building rapport, and indirectly praising relationships with LLMs?
they’re checking their own understanding by giving you an opportunity to correct them. by rephrasing it identically, it doesnt build any new understanding.
Yes, I understand the purpose of doing that… but they will rephrase it with different words, different meanings, leave out qualifiers, or add in qualifiers, etc.
Many times, the rephrasing doesn’t change the meaning, and I agree, no problem.
But sometimes, specific wording or phrasing matters greatly.
I’ve found this is a concept many neurotypicals generally struggle with, that you can’t always just reform a sentence into something easier to parse… because that can lose complexity and precision, and I am trying to convey something complex and precise.
And more often, when I object to my words being reformed… it is women who view my objection as aggressive, agitated, rude, hostile, combatative, etc.
does it not matter to you to be understood by others?
Broadly, I am well understood by most of the people I interact with.
Other than people clumsily trying to psychoanalyze me, and manipulative sociopath/narcissist types.
So no, I do not generally worry about my communication skills, as I have no problem communicating with the vast majority of people.
…
For instance… I am aware that I am often rather verbose, and tend to ramble… thats actually a sign that I feel comfortable, and trust whoever I am talking to.
I am also aware that this can be verbally, conversationally overwhelming with people who think it is rude to interrupt.
So I just tell people, hey, i have a tendency to ramble, I will not be offended at all if you interject and politely tell me to shut it, refocus, try to summarize, etc, when I am obviously rambling to tangential topics, or just telling a long story or something.
And this works very well with people who can gather the… courage? to do this, as I genuinely do not find it offensive.
But with people who are for whatever reason so timid that even after I’ve given them explicit permission to interrupt me… they still don’t actually do it… well, they tend to be frustrated with me, overwhelmed.
Normally, thats fine, I don’t need to be everyone’s friend.
But when its someone who I basically have little or no choice but to communicate with that particulsr person… yes, this can lead to problems.
maybe that’s why you’re bashing therapy on the internet, asking for CBT worksheets instead of building rapport, and indirectly praising relationships with LLMs?
So for starters, I quite explicitly said that I think using LLMs for therapy is a ‘fucking horrible idea’, I just didn’t expand on that as much… as to me this is fairly self evident and obvious.
So we now see that you are… doing the thing.
You are putting words in my mouth, because what I specifically said was evidently too complex for you to fully parse, and now you’ve reformulated it into a bastardized form that is actually contradictory to what I said.
Your poor reading comprehension skills are not my problem.
…
Secondly… I am not bashing therapy broadly, I think it is a great concept when well executed and easily accessible.
CBT in particular is more than just a set of paperwork… it is often very helpful to have a therapist use CBT methods, guidr someone through it in person.
I have been to a good number of therapists who’ve used CBT methods and they have been quite helpful… I am trying to say that I just needed a refresher, a paper copy, and after that, its been like getting back on a bicycle, I remember my training, lol.
…
Also as far as building rapport: I don’t really care to, as I am currently in a relatively temporary living situation, month to month rent, and I fully plan on moving to somewhere with more robust social safety nets and a better mental health support system, public transit system, etc, as soon as I am able, as soon as my PT has been effective enough that I am cleared by my PT team.
As I already mentioned… there are literally no therapists in the state I am currently in, via the health insurancd I can even barely afford… that are qualified and specialized to help an adult with autism.
Not sure where you are, but in the US broadly, there are hardly any psychologists or therapists that are properly qualified to treat high functioning adults with autism.
They are rare, expensive, and have huge waitlists.
I’m in a quite poor red state at the moment, with no highly reputable schools or psychology departments.
Here, autism = you’re retarded, and its only ever evaluated as a ‘disability’ affecting children.
… So my plan is to try to get to where some actual civilization and professionals exist, and to the greatest extent possible, avoid useless or harmful advice from overconfident and untrained specialists who have to pull out the DSM V to understand a reference I am making.
Seems rational to me?
thank you for the clarifications, sorry if I disturbed you. getting services in rural areas really sucks too. Hopefully you can find a good online practicioner. therapy needs more national certificates so we can stop leaving red state people in suffering
I mean, I explained why I don’t really need a basic therapist beyond just going over the basics of CBT, which I’ve already done now… but sure, ok, thanks?
For what its worth, I’m not the single downvote your comment here has.
CBT being basically the only kind of approach to therapy that is actually empirically shown to reliably actually help most people.
what the fuck are you talking about? this is objectively incorrect based on current evidence-based practices. why the fuck are you spreading misinfo about my job?
CBT IS NOT the only arghh omggg you must be trolling me. I’m not wasting any more on this
Uh, I am not intentionally trolling anyone.
To the best of my understanding… CBT has the largest amount of empirical data showing it actually helps a broad variety of people.
Yes, of course there are other forms of therapy that are more targetted and helpful for people with specific, identified conditions or diagnoses, or specific kinds of past trauma, etc.
This is why I phrased the sentence the way I did, with ‘basically’ as a qualifier, said ‘most’ people. I suppose I could have been a bit more clear and concise with that, my apologies.
There’s no need to catastrophize and read a boat load of ill intent into what I said; we can have a good faith conversation here if you want to.
What are other broadly empirically verified to be helpful therapy methods that help a broad range of people?
I would genuinely like to know, so I could look into them.
I’ve heard DBT is showing promise, but I’ve not heard it is as widely empirically evidenced and verified, yet.
I also freely admit that I could have some details and specifics wrong here… I am after all recovering from 2 years of homelessness, multiple concussions, contusions, etc.
This is like, how conversations work, right?
If someone says something you know is false… you don’t immediately assume they are an intentional badfaith disinfo agent, you instead say hey, you said this, I think that’s incorrect, and let me tell you why.
Though I do have to point out the irony of me saying that I often encounter many psych field people who needlessly read hostile intent into what I say… and then you are here literally exemplifying that, by having a very emotionally charged reaction, while identifying yourself as being in the psych field.
Yeah but have you tried going out in the sun? You can have that tip free of charge!
Wow thanks, I never would have thought of that!!!
Oh jeez, the copay is… $80 bucks?
Boy, I could have just looked that up on the interwebz… uh, outside, of course, on a laptop.
There are other methods that are clinically valid beyond CBT. Don’t give up. Somatic approaches that bypass the prefrontal cortex can be really effective too. The new hotness is showing that all that word-making can get in the way as much as it helps.
If that interests you, search ‘top-down bottom-up’ therapy approaches.
Oh I mean, I’m honestly fine.
Had some real bad PTSD style flashback shit for a while, from being homeless for roughly 2 years, still jump at sudden noises and lights, but I’ve been that way forever, yay for abusive family growing up…
But I only recently did a full check in with all kinds of medical specialists to reorient after I finally stopped being homeless, found a shithole that ain’t too shitty, that I can afford to rent… literally, I just wanted a paper copy of the CBT procedures, because they’ve worked well, honestly very well for me in the past…
And I now have numerous physical injuries from being homeless so long, getting the shit kicked out of me every other week, getting my shit stolen every other day, almost dying from now both a blizzard and a heat wave… SSDI needs you to actually have current medical contacts so they can pull records from them… and I had to get as much of my old MyChart files back together, I don’t even remember how many phones I had that kept getting stolen, email accounts I lost access to.
I appreciate the suggestion, but I seriously have never been as mentally free of stress as I am now:
All I gotta do is focus on PT, then try to either get back to a job or start my own software freelancing gig… maybe make a video game… just gotta heal up my wrist and leg and back and ass a bit more, so I can actually sit and type at a 'puter for more than 15 minutes at a time w/o terrible pain.
I honestly love being a hermit, away from my abusive family… I’m not lonely at all, I love the solitude, lemmy is really 95% of what I need for social interactions and excercising my own brain, and of course every once in a while, I hobble with my cane down and chit chat with a neighbor or two.
Yeah! Great to hear. Please continue to be a fixture in your neighborhood.
As Fred Rogers told me once, in a conversation that was just between us, a friend is a person in your neighborhood.
One thing that really lifts my mood is singing.
I’m a reasonably decent natural baritone…
For the longest while, I couldn’t, due to fucked up abdomen… couldn’t use my diaphragm right.
But… thats getting better now, the PT is slow, arduous, and painful, but it is working.
I was just in another thread posting Johnny Cash lyrics as a contrast to how shitty of a little turdboy Andrew Tate is.
I fell in… to a burnin ring of fire… and so on, haha.
Now flip that around and anytime you see or a hear a woman saying her man isn’t emotionally available, just tell her he isn’t your therapist.
… Do you see how this kind of framing is wildly unproductive, when either side engages in it?
I can’t believe I’m going to have to explain this, but it’s a meme reference: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/instead-of-going-to-therapy
Yeah, memes, common jokes, can be employed for unhelpful purposes, in unhelpful ways.
You are basically saying ‘its just a joke bro!’ when its clear that a lot of people, in general, and here in this thread, are tired of this joke, as it is dismissive and reductive.
Well if live America with no healthcare and add a stigma against therapy then yes I see how this happens. But even with healthcare a lot of them don’t offer this ( my job that I miss did.) But without some kind of plan then it is super expensive to talk to a therapist.
I don’t think people who are in a precarious financial situation spend their time talking to chatbots, they are probably too busy for that
You’ve never been in a precarious financial situation in the states, then.
And you people complain about our ignorance…
Not only men at all.
I don’t think it’s only men either, but it’s worth considering the implications and potential causes for what is being said here.
We have had not decades but centuries of macho culture, where mental health is a taboo for men because “I strong, me no cry” and we know that mental health struggles go underreported on men. This is just adding more evidence to a symptom that we already know, of a society that hasn’t been able to course correct because it’s too set in tradition to allow those who need help to seek it without feeling like garbage.
While I’m not saying this is a problem exclusive to men, I think the causes and effects on women and men are rather different. We’ve now known for a while that women with mental health issues or disorders tend to go undiagnosed (even more so than unreported). The case of autism is particularly blatant, as women only started to get diagnosed in a meaningful proportion in the 80s (despite autism not being sex- or gender-driven). https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/identity/autistic-women-and-girls
Similarly, that underdiagnosing came from the stereotyping of gender roles and the fact that being quiet and pretty equated being “feminine”, which is “good”, so can’t be autistic, because autistic is bad.
The performative masculinity of many men is also reinforced by partriarchichal norms in many women, who consistently belittle men who attempt to express their emotions without judgement, who demand macho men, who belittle men who aren’t financially better off than them.
Men can’t talk to most men, and they can’t talk to most women, society in general still largely demands they conform to the ‘bottle it all in, buck up and deal with it’ norm that is so very obviously harmful to men, and whoever they eventually take it out on when they have a breakdown.
… These are broad generalizations, but they are still broadly accurate.
Yep, the psychology industry/field has been unfair to women for a long, long time, often hideously so.
But no widespread progress on deconstructing and at least softening male machismo norms will be possible until we as a society acknowledge that… men are not the only sex/gender that often have ingrained patriarchal norms.
Fair, but it’s still a shady title IMO.
Just a “… mental health too” would have made it both correct and more nuanced IMO.
Well it was men’s mental health month. Funny how I just found that out today. But please, let’s talk about women’s mental health issues.
I didn’t know either, but let’s box people in before addressing things. What’s next, mens suffering through heat waves?
Wait, we have one of those?
Genuienly had no idea.
I thought june was pride month
Yeah, but it is way worse in men with the way they are socialized. Men are taught to not show emotions which results in them being worse at regulating emotions and not talking about issues with their peers since that would be seen as emasculating.
Women on the other hand are taught to discuss their emotions with their peers and to help others with that as well. And now that women are not required to be in a relationship with a man to be able to thrive in society, many men lose out on their only emotional caretaker and turn to chat bots.
Some people would rather yalk to something they know is fake than to talk to a person who may or may not be.
Buy more. Buy more now.
for me, beer with friends solves it
You have friends?
everyone’s a friend which drinks beer at the same table 🍻
Amen
I only have the beer part of this equation figured out.
