A profound relational revolution is underway, not orchestrated by tech developers but driven by users themselves. Many of the 400 million weekly users of ChatGPT are seeking more than just assistance with emails or information on food safety; they are looking for emotional support.
“Therapy and companionship” have emerged as two of the most frequent applications for generative AI globally, according to the Harvard Business Review. This trend marks a significant, unplanned pivot in how people interact with technology.
This comment section is nuts.
Men #1 issue is lack of empathy, TOWARDS women. Not each other.
There’s your solution.
“I’m the one who’s correct, everyone else here is wrong.” – You
Everyone else is blaming women for how men act. You disagree?
One guy said women raise boys, so it’s their fault.
Another said therapy only works for women and suggested women aren’t under any social pressure.
You think those are intelligent, well thought arguments? Because they’re stupid.
This comments section is fucking bonkers, I have never been close to a situation where any of these scenarios played out in real life.
You seem to lack empathy.
Sure buddy keep hating women or whatever the point of your comment was.
You really can’t read, can you? My comment is simple enough it would take a cock-up of epic proportions to not get my point.
You’re being a bozo. I’m arguing to be empathetic to women, you’re calling that unempathetic. You don’t deserve a serious reply so you didn’t get one.
Try reading from the start again, and maybe you’d finally be able to grasp some form of understanding. Good luck.
Empathy does not treat clinical depression.
I disagree. I had depression pretty bad, I didn’t leave my house for two years.
Empathy is definitely what made me feel different, not 100% better but different and different is the first step out of depression I think.
“The way I do things is how everyone should do things, because what works for me will unquestionably work for everyone else.” – You
Imagine arguing being a nicer person is a bad thing?
Not only men at all.
I don’t think it’s only men either, but it’s worth considering the implications and potential causes for what is being said here.
We have had not decades but centuries of macho culture, where mental health is a taboo for men because “I strong, me no cry” and we know that mental health struggles go underreported on men. This is just adding more evidence to a symptom that we already know, of a society that hasn’t been able to course correct because it’s too set in tradition to allow those who need help to seek it without feeling like garbage.
While I’m not saying this is a problem exclusive to men, I think the causes and effects on women and men are rather different. We’ve now known for a while that women with mental health issues or disorders tend to go undiagnosed (even more so than unreported). The case of autism is particularly blatant, as women only started to get diagnosed in a meaningful proportion in the 80s (despite autism not being sex- or gender-driven). https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/topics/identity/autistic-women-and-girls
Similarly, that underdiagnosing came from the stereotyping of gender roles and the fact that being quiet and pretty equated being “feminine”, which is “good”, so can’t be autistic, because autistic is bad.
Fair, but it’s still a shady title IMO.
Just a “… mental health too” would have made it both correct and more nuanced IMO.
The performative masculinity of many men is also reinforced by partriarchichal norms in many women, who consistently belittle men who attempt to express their emotions without judgement, who demand macho men, who belittle men who aren’t financially better off than them.
Men can’t talk to most men, and they can’t talk to most women, society in general still largely demands they conform to the ‘bottle it all in, buck up and deal with it’ norm that is so very obviously harmful to men, and whoever they eventually take it out on when they have a breakdown.
… These are broad generalizations, but they are still broadly accurate.
Yep, the psychology industry/field has been unfair to women for a long, long time, often hideously so.
But no widespread progress on deconstructing and at least softening male machismo norms will be possible until we as a society acknowledge that… men are not the only sex/gender that often have ingrained patriarchal norms.
Yeah, but it is way worse in men with the way they are socialized. Men are taught to not show emotions which results in them being worse at regulating emotions and not talking about issues with their peers since that would be seen as emasculating.
Women on the other hand are taught to discuss their emotions with their peers and to help others with that as well. And now that women are not required to be in a relationship with a man to be able to thrive in society, many men lose out on their only emotional caretaker and turn to chat bots.
Well it was men’s mental health month. Funny how I just found that out today. But please, let’s talk about women’s mental health issues.
I thought june was pride month
I didn’t know either, but let’s box people in before addressing things. What’s next, mens suffering through heat waves?
Wait, we have one of those?
Genuienly had no idea.
Buy more. Buy more now.
It’s stupid as hell to share any personal information with a company that is interested in spying on you and feeding your data to the nearest advertiser they can find.
Like seriously – are people using their brains or what?
are people using their brains or what?
What? No. Seriously, are you new here? And by here I mean Earth.
I see idiots all around me. Everybody only interested in advancing themselves. But if we advanced the group, it would be better for EVERYBODY.
But we as a species are too stupid to build a society that benefits everybody.
So no. No brain use here.
I mean, the question war rhetorical. But I don’t disagree.
Everything collects data. To extrapolate, it’s stupid to post on lemmy or shitter because the same will happen.
Donald Trump was ELECTED TWICE. How is the stupidity of humanity not apparent.
they need therapy, obviously they need help, and blaming them for not doing the most reasonable thing that might be unaffordable is even stupider.
blame predatory AI, openai could in a single afternoon make it so Chatgpt recomends or even helps you find a local therapist, instead of enabling this for profit.
Do they need therapy? Or do they need a world they can actually fucking live in?
It’s not like either one is available to them.
Neither is mutually exclusive, but most likely, both of those.
Men will talk to a chatbot instead of going to therapy
I go to a therapist and she treats me like a five year old.
I can literally just read her basic CBT training online, its not hard to find.
Then I do the excercises at home.
CBT being basically the only kind of approach to therapy that is actually empirically shown to reliably actually help most people.
Oh, you’re seeking an therapist qualified and specialized for high functioning autists?
There aren’t any in the state anymore.
…
I also think that using ChatGPT as a therapist is a fucking horrible idea, but uh, therapy in America is expensive, and often shit quality, oh and they just hand out pills that you’ll become dependent on, willy nilly, as opposed to trying everything else first and using that as a last resort.
There are other methods that are clinically valid beyond CBT. Don’t give up. Somatic approaches that bypass the prefrontal cortex can be really effective too. The new hotness is showing that all that word-making can get in the way as much as it helps.
If that interests you, search ‘top-down bottom-up’ therapy approaches.
Oh I mean, I’m honestly fine.
Had some real bad PTSD style flashback shit for a while, from being homeless for roughly 2 years, still jump at sudden noises and lights, but I’ve been that way forever, yay for abusive family growing up…
But I only recently did a full check in with all kinds of medical specialists to reorient after I finally stopped being homeless, found a shithole that ain’t too shitty, that I can afford to rent… literally, I just wanted a paper copy of the CBT procedures, because they’ve worked well, honestly very well for me in the past…
And I now have numerous physical injuries from being homeless so long, getting the shit kicked out of me every other week, getting my shit stolen every other day, almost dying from now both a blizzard and a heat wave… SSDI needs you to actually have current medical contacts so they can pull records from them… and I had to get as much of my old MyChart files back together, I don’t even remember how many phones I had that kept getting stolen, email accounts I lost access to.
I appreciate the suggestion, but I seriously have never been as mentally free of stress as I am now:
All I gotta do is focus on PT, then try to either get back to a job or start my own software freelancing gig… maybe make a video game… just gotta heal up my wrist and leg and back and ass a bit more, so I can actually sit and type at a 'puter for more than 15 minutes at a time w/o terrible pain.
I honestly love being a hermit, away from my abusive family… I’m not lonely at all, I love the solitude, lemmy is really 95% of what I need for social interactions and excercising my own brain, and of course every once in a while, I hobble with my cane down and chit chat with a neighbor or two.
Yeah! Great to hear. Please continue to be a fixture in your neighborhood.
As Fred Rogers told me once, in a conversation that was just between us, a friend is a person in your neighborhood.
One thing that really lifts my mood is singing.
I’m a reasonably decent natural baritone…
For the longest while, I couldn’t, due to fucked up abdomen… couldn’t use my diaphragm right.
But… thats getting better now, the PT is slow, arduous, and painful, but it is working.
I was just in another thread posting Johnny Cash lyrics as a contrast to how shitty of a little turdboy Andrew Tate is.
I fell in… to a burnin ring of fire… and so on, haha.
CBT being basically the only kind of approach to therapy that is actually empirically shown to reliably actually help most people.
Learning that as an acronym for cock and ball torture before the therapy version makes me laugh every time.
My experience with women therapists was always about how I just wasn’t paying enough attention to other people when I pointed out that the people around me weren’t consistent enough to figure out their patterns. My one therapist who was a man explained that most people are just better at handling it when they were wrong and it is fine to be wrong, plus he helped me get diagnosed with ADHD instead of telling me to just try harder. I’ll bet there are some therapists who are women who are just as good as he was, but it became pretty clear that social norms are just as hard for people who specialize in behaviors to overcome.
This is a great example of the kinds of problems that can crop up.
Fish doesn’t realize its swimming in water, kind of thing.
One approach is basically just gaslighting you:
The things that bother you and cause you trouble… well they just shouldn’t, and you should be fine with that.
The other approach is… you know, actually diagnostic, and can lead to… actually useful diagnosis, and thus more specified therapy and potentially other kinds of help.
As an autist, I’ve gone through many similar situations.
Sex/Gender independent… just 90% of therapists don’t get it all. Always try to diagnose me with something else, and its different every time.
Doesn’t matter that I’ve done the full RAADS V test and I’m basically off thr charts autistic, rofl.
Half of them have never even heard of it, don’t know anything about how diagnosing or providing help to an autistic person works at all, tend to think all autists are low functioning with very severe, general social deficits.
Then I get stuck on … well they will rephrsse what I just said, and say/ask it back to me, and I’ll say no, no I phrased what I said specifically, because I meant exactly that.
Then I see in their notes later that I am ‘arguementative’ or ‘agitated’ or ‘aggressive’… far, fsr more often if its a woman psych/soc worker/counselor who I am… not even ‘correcting’, just trying to not have them put words in my mouth.
Men tend to be less intimidated and more open to my insistance that I meant exactly what I said… and I am talking in the same voice, same mannerisms, same everything, with everyone.
Some women get it, most don’t, some men get it, most don’t.
… But the field is vastly disproportionately populated with women.
So the end result for a lot of guys is… hey look, another woman that isn’t really listening to me.
Then I get stuck on … well they will rephrsse what I just said, and say/ask it back to me, and I’ll say no, no I phrased what I said specifically, because I meant exactly that.
they’re checking their own understanding by giving you an opportunity to correct them. by rephrasing it identically, it doesnt build any new understanding.
does it not matter to you to be understood by others? maybe that’s why you’re bashing therapy on the internet, asking for CBT worksheets instead of building rapport, and indirectly praising relationships with LLMs?
they’re checking their own understanding by giving you an opportunity to correct them. by rephrasing it identically, it doesnt build any new understanding.
Yes, I understand the purpose of doing that… but they will rephrase it with different words, different meanings, leave out qualifiers, or add in qualifiers, etc.
Many times, the rephrasing doesn’t change the meaning, and I agree, no problem.
But sometimes, specific wording or phrasing matters greatly.
I’ve found this is a concept many neurotypicals generally struggle with, that you can’t always just reform a sentence into something easier to parse… because that can lose complexity and precision, and I am trying to convey something complex and precise.
And more often, when I object to my words being reformed… it is women who view my objection as aggressive, agitated, rude, hostile, combatative, etc.
does it not matter to you to be understood by others?
Broadly, I am well understood by most of the people I interact with.
Other than people clumsily trying to psychoanalyze me, and manipulative sociopath/narcissist types.
So no, I do not generally worry about my communication skills, as I have no problem communicating with the vast majority of people.
…
For instance… I am aware that I am often rather verbose, and tend to ramble… thats actually a sign that I feel comfortable, and trust whoever I am talking to.
I am also aware that this can be verbally, conversationally overwhelming with people who think it is rude to interrupt.
So I just tell people, hey, i have a tendency to ramble, I will not be offended at all if you interject and politely tell me to shut it, refocus, try to summarize, etc, when I am obviously rambling to tangential topics, or just telling a long story or something.
And this works very well with people who can gather the… courage? to do this, as I genuinely do not find it offensive.
But with people who are for whatever reason so timid that even after I’ve given them explicit permission to interrupt me… they still don’t actually do it… well, they tend to be frustrated with me, overwhelmed.
Normally, thats fine, I don’t need to be everyone’s friend.
But when its someone who I basically have little or no choice but to communicate with that particulsr person… yes, this can lead to problems.
maybe that’s why you’re bashing therapy on the internet, asking for CBT worksheets instead of building rapport, and indirectly praising relationships with LLMs?
So for starters, I quite explicitly said that I think using LLMs for therapy is a ‘fucking horrible idea’, I just didn’t expand on that as much… as to me this is fairly self evident and obvious.
So we now see that you are… doing the thing.
You are putting words in my mouth, because what I specifically said was evidently too complex for you to fully parse, and now you’ve reformulated it into a bastardized form that is actually contradictory to what I said.
Your poor reading comprehension skills are not my problem.
…
Secondly… I am not bashing therapy broadly, I think it is a great concept when well executed and easily accessible.
CBT in particular is more than just a set of paperwork… it is often very helpful to have a therapist use CBT methods, guidr someone through it in person.
I have been to a good number of therapists who’ve used CBT methods and they have been quite helpful… I am trying to say that I just needed a refresher, a paper copy, and after that, its been like getting back on a bicycle, I remember my training, lol.
…
Also as far as building rapport: I don’t really care to, as I am currently in a relatively temporary living situation, month to month rent, and I fully plan on moving to somewhere with more robust social safety nets and a better mental health support system, public transit system, etc, as soon as I am able, as soon as my PT has been effective enough that I am cleared by my PT team.
As I already mentioned… there are literally no therapists in the state I am currently in, via the health insurancd I can even barely afford… that are qualified and specialized to help an adult with autism.
Not sure where you are, but in the US broadly, there are hardly any psychologists or therapists that are properly qualified to treat high functioning adults with autism.
They are rare, expensive, and have huge waitlists.
I’m in a quite poor red state at the moment, with no highly reputable schools or psychology departments.
Here, autism = you’re retarded, and its only ever evaluated as a ‘disability’ affecting children.
… So my plan is to try to get to where some actual civilization and professionals exist, and to the greatest extent possible, avoid useless or harmful advice from overconfident and untrained specialists who have to pull out the DSM V to understand a reference I am making.
Seems rational to me?
thank you for the clarifications, sorry if I disturbed you. getting services in rural areas really sucks too. Hopefully you can find a good online practicioner. therapy needs more national certificates so we can stop leaving red state people in suffering
I mean, I explained why I don’t really need a basic therapist beyond just going over the basics of CBT, which I’ve already done now… but sure, ok, thanks?
For what its worth, I’m not the single downvote your comment here has.
what makes you think their gender is even relevant to their practice?
Gender and sex broadly influence socialization and communication norms in many ways.
Yep, there are many cases where people do not conform to standard gender/sex norms… but the norms do still broadly, empirically exist or have a physiological basis.
Personally, I am all for breaking down gender norms and stereotypes and roles, and everyone being accepting of more variance and deviation from the norm, as many people do not neatly adhere to the patriarchal hetero dichotomy norm.
… But many still do.
Especially where I am right now, in a poor red state (had to move quite far to find somewhere I could afford to rent), where the education quality is laughable, and traditional gender/sex norms are very prevalent, there are no legal protections against discrimination against queer, disabled persons such as myself.
They are human beings who are more frequently able to relate to people who are similar to them based on shared experiences including social pressures. I don’t think either gender is unable to relate to the other gender, but social pressure is pretty strong and leads to common outcomes that involve pressures based race, gender, and economic status among others. Someone from a wealthy family is more likely to have a certain outlook compared to someone who had food insecurity as a child.
assumptions assumptions!
your presumption is that you’d be a better therapist, not a worse one, if you have more shared experiences with the client. that’s not something current evidence supports.
empathy means we strive to understand one another, not presume we understand them based on our own experiences. THAT is how bad therapy happens. and self-disclosure is a crutch for poor rapport building skills.
without the shared experiences, there can be more drive for empath and mutual understanding. the feeling of being understood by someone outside your group can be transformative.
In truth, positive outcomes have little correlation with therapist-client demographics. the demographic differential does alter what the course of therapy might look like, but not the outcomes.
your presumption is that you’d be a better therapist, not a worse one, if you have more shared experiences with the client. that’s not something current evidence supports.
That isn’t something I said or what I meant. Have fun arguing with your strawman.
okay then… I guess you’re making this an adversarial thing. I’m not sure what you intended to mean by bringing up shared experiences if you weren’t speaking to efficacy. but i guess i get why you made it adversarial: it’s frustrating being misunderstood. happens to me too. i just got a comment like that in my inbox just like it. I tried to share insights on how empathy and diversity contributes to positive outcomes in therapy, and i got this bizarre tone deaf debate bro response instead. cant always be understood, i guess. it’s fine. if you can’t find common ground, you can at least tell people off who are trying to have a pleasant conversation with you, that’ll at least ensure fewer and fewer people interact with you
Yeah but have you tried going out in the sun? You can have that tip free of charge!
Wow thanks, I never would have thought of that!!!
Oh jeez, the copay is… $80 bucks?
Boy, I could have just looked that up on the interwebz… uh, outside, of course, on a laptop.
CBT being basically the only kind of approach to therapy that is actually empirically shown to reliably actually help most people.
what the fuck are you talking about? this is objectively incorrect based on current evidence-based practices. why the fuck are you spreading misinfo about my job?
CBT IS NOT the only arghh omggg you must be trolling me. I’m not wasting any more on this
Uh, I am not intentionally trolling anyone.
To the best of my understanding… CBT has the largest amount of empirical data showing it actually helps a broad variety of people.
Yes, of course there are other forms of therapy that are more targetted and helpful for people with specific, identified conditions or diagnoses, or specific kinds of past trauma, etc.
This is why I phrased the sentence the way I did, with ‘basically’ as a qualifier, said ‘most’ people. I suppose I could have been a bit more clear and concise with that, my apologies.
There’s no need to catastrophize and read a boat load of ill intent into what I said; we can have a good faith conversation here if you want to.
What are other broadly empirically verified to be helpful therapy methods that help a broad range of people?
I would genuinely like to know, so I could look into them.
I’ve heard DBT is showing promise, but I’ve not heard it is as widely empirically evidenced and verified, yet.
I also freely admit that I could have some details and specifics wrong here… I am after all recovering from 2 years of homelessness, multiple concussions, contusions, etc.
This is like, how conversations work, right?
If someone says something you know is false… you don’t immediately assume they are an intentional badfaith disinfo agent, you instead say hey, you said this, I think that’s incorrect, and let me tell you why.
Though I do have to point out the irony of me saying that I often encounter many psych field people who needlessly read hostile intent into what I say… and then you are here literally exemplifying that, by having a very emotionally charged reaction, while identifying yourself as being in the psych field.
Now flip that around and anytime you see or a hear a woman saying her man isn’t emotionally available, just tell her he isn’t your therapist.
… Do you see how this kind of framing is wildly unproductive, when either side engages in it?
I can’t believe I’m going to have to explain this, but it’s a meme reference: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/instead-of-going-to-therapy
Yeah, memes, common jokes, can be employed for unhelpful purposes, in unhelpful ways.
You are basically saying ‘its just a joke bro!’ when its clear that a lot of people, in general, and here in this thread, are tired of this joke, as it is dismissive and reductive.
Well if live America with no healthcare and add a stigma against therapy then yes I see how this happens. But even with healthcare a lot of them don’t offer this ( my job that I miss did.) But without some kind of plan then it is super expensive to talk to a therapist.
I don’t think people who are in a precarious financial situation spend their time talking to chatbots, they are probably too busy for that
You’ve never been in a precarious financial situation in the states, then.
And you people complain about our ignorance…
Some people would rather yalk to something they know is fake than to talk to a person who may or may not be.
for me, beer with friends solves it
You have friends?
everyone’s a friend which drinks beer at the same table 🍻
Amen
I only have the beer part of this equation figured out.
Almost like questioning an AI is free while a therapist costs a LOT of money.
Also talking to ChatGPT, if done anonymously, won’t ruin your career.
(Thinking of AD military, where they tell you help is available but in reality it will and maybe should cost you your security clearance.)
won’t ruin your career
Granted, but it still will suck a fuck ton of coal produced electricity.
One chat request to an LLM produces about as much CO2 as burning one droplet of gasoline (if it was from coal fired power, less if it comes from cleaner sources). It makes far less CO2 to talk to a chatbot for hours upon hours than a ten minute drive to see a therapist once a week.
Sorry, you’re right. I meant the training of the LLM is what uses lots of energy, I guess that’s not end user’s fault.
I think there’s a lot more to it than cost. Men, even with considerable health care resources, are often very averse to mental health care.
Thinking of my father in law, for example, I don’t know how much you would have to pay him to get him into a therapist’s office, but I’m certain he wouldn’t go for free.
There are other causes here.
They’ve been talking for a while about how the low participation in dating by Gen Z women is because they’re tired of being the entire support system for men experiencing a loneliness epidemic.
It’s a lot of pressure for the women to be under, and so they’re withdrawing.
I’m guessing this is one of the driving forces as well. Lack of real, emotionally intimate human connections around them. Many men are quite fucked in that regard right now.
because they’re tired of being the entire support system for men experiencing a loneliness epidemic.
I’ve got no horse in this race but it appears that ‘men should not be afraid to open up’ articles and tweets were followed by ‘men, we are not your therapist’.
🤷♂️
Because they want us to open up, just not to them. T
The irony is so many anti-patriachical feminists, still desire the patriachy. They still want dominant tall wealthy men to romance then, but at the same time they claim to wait to tear these men down into some genderless socialist utopia… where they’d never want to ahve sex with any of the ‘ideal’ men they believe woudl exist in this society.
You can’t have it both ways.
I’m a therapist who works almost exclusively with men. Here one pattern I’ve seen often:
- Man is conditioned from a young age not to identify, process or express his feelings
- Man doesn’t share his feelings with anyone - friends, family, partners - for years
- Man sees woman as safe, caring and validating
- Man confides in woman only and continues not sharing feelings with others
- Woman becomes overwhelmed, resentful, dismissive
- Man gets the message that he never should have opened up in the first place
It can be true both that men need to open up more and should not treat their partners as therapists. We all need support systems because no one person can always be available to give us everything we need. It’s not wrong to confide in a partner, but if that partner is the only confidant it’s precarious for both. And I want to emphasize this is not the fault of a man, or men as a community. This is the result of generations of conditioning from both men and women, and both men and women play a part in the solution. I also want to recognize that many of us don’t have a network of people we could open up to even if we wanted to, and many more can’t afford therapy.
If anyone reading this can afford therapy, I highly recommend it. It’s a place to undo some of that conditioning, to sit with someone who’s committed to listening, caring, and not judging.
man is conditioned from a young age not to show feelings
I feel like you skipped over this part way too quickly. Myself and other men have been hearing things like “it’s not manly to cry”, “whining isn’t going to do anything for you”, “being weak is girly”, and countless other things for my entire memorable life
And it’s not just men telling me this. It’s men, women, adults, my classmates, teachers and mentors.
It’s not a good thing. And it’s changing now, which is so good. But man hearing that from your earliest memories makes it really set in.
Thank you for expanding on that point. I meant it to be a “here’s how we got here” before the rest of my “this is where we are today.”
You’re totally right, and any conversation about men’s behavior at large should include the experiences you just described. Even though we didn’t get ourselves into this situation - in that we didn’t raise ourselves - we’re the ones who will get us out.
🤔
That’s interesting… had never seen it put that way before…
It’s almost like telling men that it’s okay to show your feelings is bullshit lol
The flip side of that is vast numbers of Gen Z Men saying many Gen Z women are basically misandrists, who asked them to stop interacting with them unprompted, no more unwanted attention… so they did that, they stopped… and now all they see is IG and TikToks of Gen Z Women complaining that no one asks them out on dates anymore, no one is 6’ tall with a 6 figure income becore the age of 30, and willing to worship them as a queen.
I am not saying this is any kind of objectively accurate to whatever degree, but I am saying that this is the very common, general vibe.
So, in that situation: Why bother?
Many men can actually be fulfilled just staying actually single, as in not even dating single, snd getting their own lives, finances, health, to a better place.
Yes this does though also mean that … because we’ve just got less general, face to face socialization going on that… basically a larger than otherwise number of them will basically develop harmful, reinforcing neuroses, in harmful echo chambers… but at the same time, that applies to women as well.
This is what happens when you jam a broad economic collapse up alongside a highly digital and publicized modern media landscape that is tweaked all to fuck to highlight and push the most extreme version of everything… along with extremely mixed messaging that an only digitally socialized person recieves, but all as a firehose, that is very hard to make true sense of.
So… fuck this shit I’m out… social withdrawal… basically becomes a reasonable mental health improving move, even if it does leave you kinda socially stunted as compared to pre-internet generations.
amen. best thing i ever did for my mental, physical and financial health was to stop dating.
most women I ever dated were nothing but a total drain on my well-being, and did almost nothing to contribute to it positively. the only women who were ever really a net positive to me were female friends who encouraged me in my interests and passions and who shared those same ones with me.
Sadly I’ve never been able to date anyone who saw my passions as a positive… just a negative becuase often their soul interest in the world was getting money, attention, and generating drama out of our relationship so they could ‘feel feelings’. So many ladies see relationships as nothing more than drug dispensing feel good machines (the same women who think all men want is sex… ironically). People need to realize that relationships are way more than that.
I remember so many times trying to have serious talk with my girlfriends and they just… got uncomfortable or just tried to sex me up to shut me up. They dind’t want to deal with anything serious or adult. And these were adult women in their 30s. The only adult things they wanted to talk about was vacation plans or restaurants.
But it sucks, as happy as I am alone I want something more. I want a family and kids and to contribute to society in that way, but frankly, I don’t really meet any women who want that. They just seem to want to be consumers first and foremost and productive members of society who care about more than themsevles… is not really on their wishlist.
I have been volunteering a lot, but it’s really not the same. It’s nice, but like working out, it doesn’t feel like it’s really going anywhere other than just staving off the inevitable decline as best I can. All my volunteer work just is a tiny drop of givnig a shit in the massive bucket of neglect that is our society as we amuse ourselves to death via social media and consumer trends.
I am not saying this is any kind of objectively accurate to whatever degree, but I am saying that this is the very common, general vibe.
I’m glad you’re not because this is patently false. As soon as you get out of the internet you find young people dating is alive and well.
I mean, to a certain degree this is broadly true.
Like we have the numbers, younger generations are waaaay less likely to have had a relationship or sexual encounter by the same age/stage in their life as compared to previous generations, way more people just are relationship inexperienced.
This goes for both genders/sexes, though it is more prominent with younger men than women.
The overwhelming problem is that in the US, so much in person socialization is expensive, basically pay-gated, paywalled.
There are very few third places you can just hang out at for no cost. Public transit sucks or is non existant, cars are super unaffordable due to collapsing economy, and all our cities are designed for using cars to drive from place to place… so very few places are actually walk-navigable…
Everyone is increasingly overweight and overworked (or over homeworked, for students) and overstressed, so they can’t or don’t engage in group meet up hobbies or sports as much as they used to… and ironically even religiosity levels overall trending down means less people are going to church… all the traditional methods of getting socialization and expanding out a friend network in real life are withering.
So, the easier path is to get your socialization, of all kinds, primarily digitally.
But all those most common and popular ways of doing that are also massively manipulative with algos intentionally feeding you whatever ragebait slop appeals to you, personally.
It is very ironic that, as basically a 90s kid myself, very early tech adopter… my view of the vast majority of social media now is that it is basically a mentally harmful and addictive drug that people need to detox from… but when I tell younger people that, they say things like ‘its not that deep bro, everybody has a (whatever) profile’.
There are lots of studies that show that very common levels of social media app usage… do actually reduce attention spans, spread dangerous misinformation, lower academic performance, cause negative self esteem by way of unrealistic standards, of beauty, lifestyle, wealth… brainrot is real, basically.
Like, I am all for the TikTok ban for kids. But also ban all short form video content for kids. Instagram, Youtube shorts, whatever.
This shit is melting peoples brains, it needs to be treated the same way you’d treat a drug epidemic.
We are now at the point where kids give so little of a fuck, have such tiny attention spans and need for constant, rapid fire stimulation… that half of adult Americans read below a 6th grade level, 20-30% of them read below a 2nd grade level, making them functionally illiterate… and thats just with Gen Z now mostly being in those young adult numbers, its gonna be even worse when Gen Alpha graduates and starts trying to enter society/the workforce.
Well I don’t care about your anecdote about the US. That country is lost and young people feeling depressed and isolated is the least of your problems.
Out here in actual civilization though, tik tok youth drama is not representative of reality whatsoever.
Cool, I’m glad you’re so enlightened and open minded as to uh … not give a fuck about perspectives from places you aren’t from.
As for you telling me how to use an internet message board… what more do you want from me?
I told you where I am from and what I am talking about.
I’d love to be able to move to Europe and get away from this fucking imploding hell hole of morons.
But I am broke and physically disabled after being the victim of numerous physical assaults.
Are any of ya’ll accepting disabled American aslyum seekers, so we can easily enjoy your civilized world?
Didn’t think so.
Focus on fixing your country and making it a decent place to live. That way you don’t need to go anywhere. That’s what we’ve been doing for decades, and it works.
young people feeling depressed and isolated is the least of your problems.
Children are the future of EVERY country. The future is looking bleak for young people in the US. Where do you live? Are young people unaffected by social media or what?
Out here in actual civilization though, tik tok youth drama is not representative of reality whatsoever.
That’s the thing though. It’s hard for me to wrap my head around sometimes, but for lots of young people, social media IS their reality. This became even more true during the pandemic. We asked young people to go to school on a screen and pretend it was the same as doing it in person. Why wouldn’t they have the same mindset about chatting, hanging out, flirting, dating, etc.? They don’t see it as simulated socializing, it’s just how they socialize.
You can use rethoric and anecdotes all you want but at the end of the day (literally) all you need to do is look out the window and see how many people are out socializing and fucking each other like rabbits.
Those Tik Tok girls complaining about men do so because they are outliers who can’t get attention IRL. Simple as.
There are very few third places you can just hang out at for no cost. Public transit sucks or is non existant, cars are super unaffordable due to collapsing economy, and all our cities are designed for using cars to drive from place to place… so very few places are actually walk-navigable…
Yeah a lot of these trends are also easy to break down by economic class. the people suffering the most from the are poorer people. well off upper middle income people experience these problems far less proportionally. because they have the resources to get around the paywalls, and have the well-off parents with the money to pay for all the extra schooling and digital detoxing that is necessary for better life outcomes.
but for the middle class and below… they are cooked. the avenues to success and self-reliance are basically non-existence and and have been shrinking at start rates since the 90s and the school system is become a cesspool that any decent intelligent person wants nothing to do with.
Yeah, but also one of them is helpful and the other is the exact opposite. If the choices are AI therapist or no therapist, you are still better off with no therapist.
I’m gonna need a source on that.
that’s easy to say, but when someone is in a crisis, I would be wrong to judge then for talking to an AI (shitty terrible solution) instead of a therapist that can be unaffordable and also comes with a risk of then being terrible.
a terrible therapist at least has an ethics board
a terrible therapist at least has evidence-based interventions on their side
a terrible therapist at lest has the fact that ~80% of positive outcomes have nothing to do with the interventions or anything the therapist does besides show up and be cool (a statistic I remember quite well from grad school)
AI has none of these things
therapy isn’t fucking magic. it’s a relationship. you can’t have a relationship with an LLM. there’s no such thing as AI therapy, you’re just training it to tell you about CBT worksheets while you bitch about your problems like you’re in a nail salon
a terrible therapist can lock you in a room, some people don’t want that risk
The best therapist in the world can still end your career by causing your clearance to be revoked or rendering you unqualified for your unit’s mission.
(Suicide is a big problem in the military, I lost a buddy to it.)
The cheapest therapist in the world may still not be covered by your insurance. (And nothing you write in reply will alter that.)
They should work to make AI therapy better while keeping it totally anonymous. If it were really good it would be the number one use for running a local and disconnected and air gapped LLM: perfectly private therapy with no “we just use telemetry to improve our product” bullshit.
Then maybe a lot more men would seek help/talk about their thoughts and feelings.
They can’t make it better… you can’t have a relationship with an autocorrect
ok.
but the problem is that real therapy is expensive, and unaccessible, while AI is freely accessible, even though it’s shit.
and open ai is profiting from that.
I’m just saying the blame should be aimed at the corporations and the healthcare system, rather than someone who is desperate for help
Got it. No therapist it is.
That’s what I’m doing. That and screaming into a pillow most nights.
I don’t scream into a pillow. I just wake up at dawn and have a panic attack until I have to actually move.
I’d be interested on a study there.
I lot of therapy is taking emotions and verbalising them so that the rational part of the brain can help in dealing with things. Even a journal can help with that, so talking to an inanimate machine doesn’t seem stupid to me.
However therapists guide the conversation to challenge the patient, break reinforcing cycles, but in a way that doesn’t cause trauma. A chatbot isn’t going to be the same.
Look, if you can afford therapy, really, fantastic for you. But the fact is, it’s an extremely expensive luxury, even at poor quality, and sharing or unloading your mental strain with your friends or family, particularly when it is ongoing, is extremely taxing on relationships. Sure, your friends want to be there for you when they can, but it can put a major strain depending on how much support you need. If someone can alleviate that pressure and that stress even a little bit by talking to a machine, it’s in extremely poor taste and shortsighted to shame them for it. Yes, they’re willfully giving up their privacy, and yes, it’s awful that they have to do that, but this isn’t like sharing memes… in the hierarchy of needs, getting the pressure of those those pent up feelings out is important enough to possibly be worth the trade-off. Is it ideal? Absolutely not. Would it be better if these systems were anonymized? Absolutely. But humans are natural anthropomorphizers. They develop attachments and build relationships with inanimate objects all the time. And a really good therapist is more a reflection for you to work through things yourself anyway, mostly just guiding your thoughts towards better patterns of thinking. There’s no reason the machine can’t do that, and while it’s not as good as a human, it’s a HUGE improvement on average over nothing at all.
And you, coward? You can shove your downvote. You should feel ashamed of yourself for shaming people for seeking help because YOU don’t approve of the way they go about it.
In my experience, it’s likely that some of those downvotes come from reflexive “AI bad! How dare you say AI good!” Reactions, not anything specific to mental health. For a community called “technology” there’s a pretty strong anti-AI bubble going on here.
You know, I don’t even disagree with that sentiment in principle, but expecting people to suffer when they could benefit from a technology because they only see the threats and dangers makes them no different than antivaxxers.
It is possible and logically consistent to urge caution and condemn the worst abuses of technology without throwing the baby out with the bath water.
But no… I guess because the awful aspects of the technology as far as IP theft are - rightfully - the biggest focus, sorry, poor people, you just have to keep sucking it up and powering through! You want empathy, fork over the $100 an hour!
For a community called “technology” there’s a pretty strong anti-AI bubble going on here.
Are you surprised people have opinions about technology, in a community dedicated to discussing technology?
No, just surprised about how uninformed and knee-jerk those opinions are.
yep, if someone disagrees with me, it’s usually because they’re unhinged. People rarely know things that I don’t, because I am very smart. there’s no way that anyone downvoted that post because it makes statements that are inconsistent with the current scientific knowledge around this subject, because no such knowledgeable exists. I know this because if it did exist i would know about it, as I’m very smart. my AI therapist told me so. and i see nothing wrong with that post. so anyone who does must be a fool.
Literally yesterday we had post about getting involuntarily committed due to psychosis from AI sycophantically agreeing with them about everything. The quote I remember from the ai in that “yes you should want blood. You’re not wrong.”
Using these as therapy is probably the worst thing we could do.
therapy does not have to be expensive.
around 70% of my caseload is Medicaid and they don’t pay a dime. the remainder is mostly DOC (prison), they only pay if we charge No Show fee. so they pay to not go to therapy. There’s 1-2 people who are funded by the county. they pay a $7 copay per session
Therapy isn’t expensive, luigi is.
As far as efficacy, we don’t even have data suggesting AI therapy is effective. we have ample data, however, showing that the most important part of therapy is not what you do but the relationship itself. not individual efforts. so your theory about what therapy does for us is wrong. there’s no relationship with an LLM. we have no reason to believe it would be any better than a paper journal and a CBT worksheet.
therapy does not have to be expensive.
But it is though.
Your medicaid patients?
Poor. By definition.
Sure they might not pay a copay, but they pay for it in gas money to get to that visit, their barely running car now breaking down from visiting you, time off work they can’t really afford, time filling out reams and reams of fucking paperwork to be able to qualify for anything, likely when they’re already in a mentally comprimised condition to some extent… its all very stressful.
Which is very bad for mental health.
we have no reason to believe it would be any better than a paper journal and a CBT worksheet.
And the part you don’t want to admit (at least here) is that … that’s actually quite helpful in and of itself for a lot of people.
Have a few sessions with a live, in person therapist, to teach you CBT, give you the paperwork, walk you through it.
Not all, but many people can take it by themselves from there, and not need to keep wasting time and energy on continually requalifying for medicaid, getting to and from psych appointments, dealing with scheduling delays and unavailability, etc.
Yep, a lot of people are also helped by basically just having someone to be able to talk to and feel heard.
But… that’s often doable by just making either a friend or even casual acquaintance with someone who is capable of, and has the capacity for reflexive empathy.
Much less stress and paperwork involved there.
And also yes, some people with much more serious issues need much more serious help.
Unfortunately, the entire medical system in the US is utterly broken, and the only real solution is having a system that … isn’t broken, so that comprehensive screening and diagnosis is easily available without huge delays and costs… and more broadly, those people need to have the first two levels of maslow’s hierarchy of needs taken care of.
But currently our society basically just takes those people and throws them into the streets, evicts them, forecloses on them, incarcerates them.
There simply is no systemic way to help those people without major systemic changes… and those ain’t happening, they’re moving in the opposite direction.
…
The problem with LLMs as therapy is that they are wildly overconfident, agreeable to the point of encouraging delusions and dangerous behavior, they hallucinate facts that aren’t real… and they are not actually capable of legitimate critical thinking or reasoning.
They also will not introduce you to concepts you have never heard of before which you do not know are or could be very useful, unless you directly ask them to do that, and even then… they obviously are not experts themselves and may suggest dubious ideas.
But also, at the same time… people often do form what they will describe as meaningful relationships with an LLM. So… its not that ‘it doesn’t happen’, its that its a psuedorelationship, a fascimile of a relationship, lacks in person interaction, a real human modulating their intonation, having micro expressions, body language, etc etc.
CDC data from 2022 indicated that more than one in five U.S. adults under the age of 45 experienced symptoms of mental distress.
Must be the lack of personnel. Couldn’t have anything to do with the global insecurity of rising inflation and low wage jobs coupled with the skyrocketing housing costs. Not to mention the whole “the earth is steadily getting hotter and extreme weather events are happening more and more frequently.”
Yeah, let’s invest in more AI that will fuck over the planet even more with colossal energy requirements and not even bother with making people more financially and socially secure.
Of course men will go to an AI for their problems, they can’t fathom going to a woman for honest advice.
And as a result, they gaslight themselves with a worse version of ELIZA.
they can’t fathom going to a woman for honest advice.
Honest advice may not be good advice. I could tell a person “go kill yourself”, and be VERY honest about it. Yet it’s not good advice, now is it?
Of course men will go to an AI for their problems, they can’t fathom going to a woman for honest advice.
This seems a bit far-fetched, don’t you think? There could be so many reasons as to why someone would rather use AI than going to another person for advice (this is not just about women).
Honestly, as someone who actually went to therapy and yes, my therapist was a woman. It’s was quite tough to open up and be vulnerable.
I think for some people using AI, they might feel as if they’re not that vulnerable because it is not a person. However, they don’t realize that there’s data is being gathered.
And as a result, they gaslight themselves with a worse version of ELIZA.
With this, I can’t figure out whether you’re serious, trolling or just writing randomly.
Much easier if you just bury your feelings deep deep down. No repercussions whatsoever. The occasional psychic breakdowns but that’s normal.
Even I Canada, where mental health is still a value-add for most of us and not a right even under our current system, we are offered a fund with some jobs to use for either physiotherapy or mental health, and it’s a limited fund.
Give us a choice, and 10/10 times we will prioritize being able to walk and move and sleep effectively over feeling good about it.
genAI chatbots are so predatory
LLMs have no intentions. They only do what the user asks them to.
Offline it is… Online, they use it as training, and companies buy the data and trends. Both of you are right. LLMs, are just trained, they repeat patterns, but have no intent in an of itself, but companies will steer towards whatever gets them more revenue, so if an AI bro company goes for psychology, it’ll just be a repeat of BetterHelp
I can kinda understand the appeal. An AI isn’t gonna judge you, an AI isn’t gonna leave a mean comment or tell you to get over it and man up. It’s giving an unnerving amount of personal information to corporations, but I can sympathise with the thoughts these men are having.
An AI isn’t gonna judge you,
Guess what is happening with that chat history.
AI might also be giving them better advice than anyone else in their life.
Growing up I certainly had no role models in my entire community. I never found anyone who was remotely helpful until I went to an expensive college that had lots of resources and they were freely accessible to me. Mental, physical, and academic.
A lot of people fail to realize these resources simple do not exist in large swaths of the country/economic bracket. They are mostly concentrated in wealthy and educated areas and given to wealth educated people who live there. If a farmer in Nebraska needs therapy, they will have to drive to multiple hours to Omaha or another urban area to have a decent shot at getting any assistance. Not everyone lives in a major coastal city that have the bulk of these resources.
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It might even, gasp, offer solutions.
I don’t think the open internet is a great place to open up about your mental health either. Trusted family, friends, and medical/mental health professionals are the best resources. Entrusting something as precious as your mental health to AI or the internet is a profoundly bad idea.
A local llm could (at least appear to) be the best option (on an individual scale) for people that would be reported by mandatory reporters (which mental health professionals are), such as suicidal people or murderers or pedophiles.
Well those sound like people who aren’t good to open up to.
I do sympathize though, I pretended to be a guy for several decades, and my wife put exactly the same kind of duality on me that men put on women.
I was expected to be sympathetic and nurturing in some contexts and aggressive, jealous, and demanding in others, and I was just supposed to know when to switch.
And there was an amount of vulnerability I was able to display, but beyond that I’d get told to suck it up.
I think somebody needs to come up with an ad campaign that’s Therapy For Men. Big sweaty hairy guys with thick beards looking after each other’s mental health like BROs. It worked to get men to use soap.
(Seriously, I think counseling is too female-coded for a lot of men to be comfortable with it unless they’re fucking the person, or they start to want to fuck the person because they’re unused to talking about things).
I dealt with the same thing in all my relationships. Nothing got my gfs hotter than when I acted like a complete asshole towards other people. They got off the duality of me being shit to people and the being this ‘sweet man’ to them. And they’d get super jealous and bitter if I was kind towards anyone else other than them. It was Toxic AF. It made me hate myself and made me depressed. To know that i had to be a shithead to get my girlfriends to like me.
I’m so much happier single. I’d rather not get laid then have to be a POS asshole like they wanted me to be. Soooo many people get off on anti-social behaviors. I’m also so glad I never got married or had children with these ladies who have such a horrible Zero Sum way of thinking about the world.
They wanted me to be vulnerable, but only in the sense that I was some heroic figure overcoming the odds. If i said I was sad when my dog died or my dad died, then I was a giant pussy to them.
When shitty people only validate your shitty emotions… well that’s why so many women only date shitty men. Because they are turned off sexually by men who are more complex or behave outside of their per-determiend ‘what a man should be’ image. Especially when you reject them for sex… holy shit. Way to see what a lady really thinks of a men when a man turns her down for sex.
In my many years single now, I do a lot of volunteer work. Giving back here and there w/ kids and adults and community building. I’ve never met or a dated lady who thought it was cool. They all think it’s weird to be kind to strangers and/or I’m secretly homosexual if I do so. If it comes up they always get ‘suspicious’.
You’ve met some shitty women. There are some of us out there fighting against sexism in all ways. Not for females but for all people. Sexism hurts everyone :(
My mental image the solution of your last paragraph is a guy and their counsoler just chatting outside chopping firewood or other simple/quiet lawn work.
“I need a therapist, and a lumberjack”
You know, working together on something outside might be absolutely the ticket. Genius.
That was the whole premise of a King Of The Hill episode. Bobby and his friends working out their differences repairing Hank’s truck.
