Far more animals than previously thought likely have consciousness, top scientists say in a new declaration — including fish, lobsters and octopus.
Bees play by rolling wooden balls — apparently for fun. The cleaner wrasse fish appears to recognize its own visage in an underwater mirror. Octopuses seem to react to anesthetic drugs and will avoid settings where they likely experienced past pain.
All three of these discoveries came in the last five years — indications that the more scientists test animals, the more they find that many species may have inner lives and be sentient. A surprising range of creatures have shown evidence of conscious thought or experience, including insects, fish and some crustaceans.
That has prompted a group of top researchers on animal cognition to publish a new pronouncement that they hope will transform how scientists and society view — and care — for animals.
Nearly 40 researchers signed “The New York Declaration on Animal Consciousness,” which was first presented at a conference at New York University on Friday morning. It marks a pivotal moment, as a flood of research on animal cognition collides with debates over how various species ought to be treated.
Any being that needs a map of the environment is going to have consciousness. Depending on its sense organs it will experience consciousness much differently than other beings.
So yeah that’s a pretty low bar. We’re going to find it everywhere. I suspect even mycelium is a rudimentary consciousness/nervous system. And plants are a lot more active underground than they are above, roots will move around rocks, be aware of if their neighbors are their siblings or not and share nutrients with their siblings by giving them more space, be more competitive with plants that they’re not related to.
Life’s a trip, and we are just some clever apes who have a lot to learn I think.
Slime mold appears intelligent, they used it in Japan to help reconfigure their subways iirc
I dunno about all that, but I used to have an African fish that would always get the zoomies when I’d come home from work. He’d spit water at me or gravel at the glass to get my attention, and loved playing hide and seek and always brushed up on my hands when I was working on his tank. He never reacted this way to visitors, just me.
Exactly this.
And to get to this you need experience, research, and knowledge.
And trying to explain this to humans in general would take several generations in best case scenario (much less actually doing/changing anything with that knowledge).
Usually anything attacking the doctrine of how extra super special & way more unique than other equally unique species are is meet with severe (auto-?)hostility.
Even without our status in question, just the “threat” of something being slightly less/differently inferior to us is immediately attacked by the vast majority.
And once we decide something is inferior to us it takes extra effort to change the popular belief (like racism between humans as well - just designate some human as non-human & they are considered about as much as billions of yeast bacteria as we are baking bread).
I think the autohostility is just hubris. Some people would like to pretend they know everything about everything. So when learning new things they get hostile because, oh no, we found them out.
Especially in today’s environment, I agree, hubris and greed.
The new paradigm is coming
not surprising, I remember watching spider move when I was a kid and thinking they were obviously intelligent. sure they creep me out but I hate killing them for no reason, same with literally any other living thing
That’s true, spider man was pretty sentient in his movie
This raises some interesting questions. The premise of these scientists is that consciousness can be quantified empirically. Yet many of the tests described in this article can be passed by machines. Does that mean that the scientists who signed the declaration consider some smart devices to demonstrate consciousness? And what are the implications?
I’d hazard the guess they don’t, and it’s easy to justify it - our current AIs don’t have the internal aparatus needed to develop counsciousness (yet). They’re way too simple and way too straightforward to be intelligent, whether intelligence is an emergent property or a fundamental structure.
Seems like a strong argument that consciousness cannot be determined by testing behaviors.
True, you can’t test a literal rock and expect the result to be telling of counsciousness. Good thing the researchers aren’t solely determining it by testing behaviour, and instead selected a group in which emergent intelligence is one of the probable phenomena.
Is emergent intelligence the scientific definition of consciousness? The article seems to be describing something else.
Is emergent intelligence the scientific definition of consciousness?
There exists no practical or effective difference.
These arguments never make much sense because there’s no broadly accepted philosophical consensus on what sentience is.
I agree with this. I’ve read the statement that the scientists wrote and I honestly could not figure out what they are trying to say. I just don’t see how any of the tests they reference would challenge the idea that we don’t know how to define or test consciousness.
Sentience is not necessarily the same thing but its in a similar place. It may be possible to test depending on the definition.
So arrogant are we
In the 17th century, the French philosopher René Descartes argued that animals were merely “material automata” — lacking souls or consciousness.
I believe we’re all “material automata.” The mistake isn’t thinking animals are more primitive than they are, but thinking we are more sophisticated than we are. We’re nothing special.
The question is not, Can they reason?, nor Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? Why should the law refuse its protection to any sensitive being?
Jeremy Bentham, 1789
Wasn’t this already obvious?
My first, second, third and fourth thought. I didn’t have a fifth.
Well, maybe, but it sure as he’ll isn’t convenient.
Al Gore marvel movie quip
An Inconvenient Sentience
Yes.
Denying such things in other animals has been part of a long-standing, mainly Western, push for human exceptionalism
I mean people have been pushing for recognition of this for at least a few thousand years so I’d say yes.
The lengths people are willing to go in self delusion for a burger are astounding though.
Some people are just straight up fine eating beef because they don’t care. Like, we won the food chain, and that’s enough for them
You really said “we won the food chain” like you wouldn’t run screaming from a slightly pissed off badger haha.
What a fucking absurd stance, the school of “if I can do it: it must be fine to do” ethics.
the school of “if I can do it: it must be fine to do” ethics
Some people would call this the “law of the jungle”, or the natural state of things.
It’s also not reasonable to assume any one person would run screaming from a badger. People wrestle crocodiles and mountain lions and win.
If anyone thinks that I hope they get hunted by a sadist, are kept as their plaything, and live a long life begging for death.
It’s a completely asinine opinion that absolutely nobody worth giving a modicum of time or respect to maintains. There’s not even any point talking about, it’s like chiming in with the fact that some people think smearing shit on toilet walls is the correct thing to do when discussing how to grow food.
Also anyone who gets defensive about the idea they would run screaming from a moderately pissed off badger has never interacted with a badger and would absolutely run screaming from one.
I didn’t say it’s my opinion, you silly goose.
The lack of critical thinking here is insane
Edit: the whole way we won the food chain isnt about standing toe to toe with any animal, we productionized their whole existence.
Beyond that I don’t know how you could know what animals I am or am not afraid of, that’s a pretty silly assumption
Uh huh, I believe you. You’re so tough and smart and strong, bravely debating and owning the libs, casually fighting badgers armed with nothing but your Jordan Peterson body pillow.
To think that Aldous Huxley was known as the last Renaissance man when you were among us all along.
Ok not sure what I’m debating here, is it really a point of argument that some folks are fine with consuming meat? Is it really a point of argument that humans are at the top of the global food chain?
Edit are you just 3 badgers in a trench coat?
Not to people indoctrinated by Abrahamic religions.
We don’t even know what sentience/sapience/whatever is. We have some thoughts, people argue about the definitions, and stuff; but really… it all comes down to… “are they like us”… but we don’t even really know what that means.
So no. It’s not obvious. (Particularly because humans are surprisingly stupid.)
To people who spend a lot of time around animals or even sea creatures, it may be obvious that they’re more like us than most would assume.
To put it another way, humans just aren’t that special. We started from the assumption that we are somehow fundamentally different
We keep finding out that all sorts of animals have language and culture, and it blows my mind that apparently, just about everything seems to have something akin to a name
I always instinctively knew it and that’s why i love animals so much. My son was born just like me, with a love and respect of all creatures, even insects (Beside mosquitoes and flies because these can really eat all my electric tapper)
Ofc they are sentient.
I fail to understand why do we will push the ‘no expression of the face means no intelligence or emotions bcs most of us communicate that way’.
It always turns out that whatever brain mechanics we think of as our own we later & with minimal research find in other animals as well.
Evolutionary speaking too, same brain centres (with various density and relative size - of which we dont have all that dense brains & and most parts are underdeveloped), it’s absolutely unlikely we would have developed something new in a few millions of years (especially given smol & fragmented populations facing extinctions and smol gene pools - tho that could be interpreted the other way too). It’s just specialisation, some (advantageous) functions grew, other were optimised to the point of non-existence.
Then again, given how intolerant are we to our own species in terms of our emotional response to slight visual differences (I mean vcompletely evolutionary, uncanny valley thing, the next village of humanoids might have been competing for the same resources, which makes different culture/colours/face shapes = danger, etc), how we choose to ignore compassion (like ‘look at that idiot, ofc they have no feelings, not unlike me, the superior being’) … ofc we can’t immediately recognise and understand what and how animals are feeling. It takes a lot of time, effort, & empathy (mechanical empathy, like to fully underhand their environment from their pov, and emotional empathy, how they are processing that environment).
And the bigger the difference and habitats, the harder it is (like any sea animal really). Anything non-mammal seems alien to us, no matter the smarts (eg cuttlefish, that can clearly experience psychological trauma on individual and population/cultural level).
And then there are fungi. After that plants. And whatever we choose bacteria to be (like beings, or just a literal matter of environment we live within). Etc :).
Insects don’t really have brains. The complexity of their ganglia is not really comparable to what we consider a brain and seems rather unlikely that they have anything like our consciousness, just due to the difference in complexity. Does not mean we should treat them like shit, they are living creatures - but also not sure why we need to pretend they are something they are clearly not.
This doesn’t explain complex behavior seen in many insects like how bumblebees can learn how to solve puzzles from watching other bees performing the solution (this requires a minimal degree of visual recognition of the same species, theory of mind to understand they have a goal and what it is, recognition of their actions and the ability to translate them to copy them, etc).
Having a drastically different structure to their neurons doesn’t mean they can’t think.
“Same” neurons (they don’t have all the neuron types we have but in general one can say it’s the same neurons), just no complex brain structures. You can have very complex behavior completely reliant on pheromone systems, quite well studied in ants. I’m not to familiar with bumblebees so I would need to look into literature, but for example simple learning already happens at molecular level and does not require any thinking at all.
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.3002019
They show evidence of a degree of culture (socially shared knowledge)
Thanks, will check the paper out.
Jumping spiders show some level of consciousness. They’re intelligent predators that heavily use their sight to identify prey. They can recognise different prey types, learn their behaviours and adjust hunting strategies accordingly. A good example is how they are able to recognise when certain prey is acting odd, deduce it’s injured and drop their stealthy approach for a more direct one. They’re also capable of remembering their environment and using indirect and often complex paths to sneak up on prey.
Scientists have even observed them “dreaming”, which is likely when they do the information processing required for such comparatively complex behaviours https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/jumping-spiders-dream-rem-sleep-study-suggests
Bold claim to go from REM in sleep-like state to dreams and consciousness, and the original paper is not making that claim.
A good example is how they are able to recognise when certain prey is acting odd, deduce it’s injured and drop their stealthy approach for a more direct one. They’re also capable of remembering their environment and using indirect and often complex paths to sneak up on prey.
All of this seems rather possible even with basic learning mechanisms on molecular level. Not sure why you would claim that this need consciousness. But if you have a paper on this topic I would be more than interested to read them.
No papers that are actually concrete. Most of it is just speculation.
I’m not a scientist, and for me personally it’s enough to make me spend a bit longer thinking before immediately dismissing all insects as mindless automatons. Most probably are simple biological machines. Jumping spiders are however massive outliers in terms of insect intelligence, and a cursory Google search will provide a wealth of evidence for it.
I personally would also go as far as believing that they dream. I just don’t believe there’s a reasonable explanation for the REM like state other than some form of dreaming, even if rudimentary.
I’m not going to state that jumping spiders are fully conscious as 100% fact, there’s not enough proof for that. But they do have a proven ability to learn, and an ability to make somewhat complex plans. And all I’m trying to say is that we need more research before dismissing them so certainly.
Not a scientist my self, but I studies biology and neuroscience more specifically - just left the field. I will look more into jumping spiders, since it’s sounds interesting and I was not really aware that they are that different from other spiders. Now I’m more curious and I definitely agree that we need more research in general.
Yes, and if the argument is that, “we must all become vegans,” because animals experience pain or because they’re closer related to humans than plants and deserve more empathy, it fails for insects, and more so in the case of some animals we’re even closer related to, like echinoderms with decentralized nervous systems. In that case it would make more sense to farm both plants and arthropods (and echinoderms?), and while eating insects doesn’t seem appetizing or appealing to me more, I’m sure it would be fine after a few tries and with some quality recipes.
If it’s about animal intelligence, I don’t see any way to decide for or against it or even begin to approach it, since that definition isn’t even locked down for humans.
If it’s about sapience or sentience or consciousness, we can’t even resolve that with people when it comes to how to think of humans who are severely mentally disabled, comatose, braindead, etc. And obviously neither vegans nor omnivores are trying to eat human vegetables.
Even if we could assume we all agreed on a definition of consciousness, humans still don’t agree on how to treat other conscious humans with empathy, as we see day after day across the world.
It would be nice to at least see animal farming improve the approach to minimizing the pain and suffering of food animals that we certainly know have a pain response.
Not sure how your answer is related to my.
Just agreeing that it doesn’t make sense to attribute qualities to insects that they don’t have, and pointing out that even the terms being attributed don’t have clear agreed-on definitions when they’re used for humans.
Thanks for explaining, I somehow didn’t get your point.
I find it hard to express my thoughts concisely, and it often ends up being a wall of gibberish. 🫤
Yes, I agree, in just pointing out how difficult is to understand that. Theoretically, it’s not like a human-level intelligent insect couldn’t exist.
My thinking to challenge myself/ourselves: Then how do whole colonies decide and plan resources? When to gave truce or war with the neighbouring colonies (of same or completely different species?). Their war strategies resemble human wars without technology/weapons. They also cultivate insects, plants, and fungi. Some within colonies plan, deceive, and try to develop a new queen (instead of the queen doing it in purpose/strategy).
Having brains as such imho is part of the problem as it adds a lot of complexity for humans to relate to.
But even our brains don’t work and govern alone, major organs have a complex nervous systems of their own (complex in the sense of not having a centre).
Not as a direct comparison to insect, but eg cephalopod brains are also vastly different, yet clearly highly intelligent.
My thinking to challenge myself/ourselves: Then how do whole colonies decide and plan resources? When to gave truce or war with the neighbouring colonies (of same or completely different species?). Their war strategies resemble human wars without technology/weapons. They also cultivate insects, plants, and fungi. Some within colonies plan, deceive, and try to develop a new queen (instead of the queen doing it in purpose/strategy).
We understand most of your questions quiet well. It’s been a long time since I studied biology and I’m not working in that field anymore so I won’t be able to give you most answers from memory, but if you are interested you will find a lot of research on those topics. It’s mostly really rather automatic responses through pheromone systems with involuntary responses. Especially the wars of ants are quite well understood in that regard.
Cephalopod have different but also rather complex brain structures. Again - insects just completely lack higher brain anatomy. If you into those question I would highly recommend you to take an introductory lecture into neuroscience online. We don’t understand everything but we understand some things quiet well.
Go. Vegan.
Or just enjoy being at the top of the food chain, just don’t morally waffle about it, own it. Be into suffering
The idea that humans are at the top of the food chain is largely disputed. On a global level we are at about the same trophic level as anchovies.
Colloquial usage, as I am here, refers to dominance on an ecosystem, and freedom of menu.
In that way there is nothing close to humans. You.csn eat nearly any creature on the planet, ordered over the internet. Next day if you’re in a rush.
Humans have no widespread predators.
Or find a balance and don’t be edgy for the sake of pissing off vegans
I’m closer to vegan than not, I am targeting people who dance around their actions.
If you eat meat you are complicit in suffering. Don’t hide from that.
Yup. Species is an insane line to justify killing over. It’s not who can breed with whom, or how somebody looks that matters, it’s is there a ‘them’.
but consciousness is so tasty
Give it up. I’m not eating bugs. Intentionally.
Shrimp is bugs though
Be that as it may, wasps can still fuck right off.
Yeah, well I’m still not sorry I put out ant traps.
Ants are also fairly well documented to be on the level of sophisticated biological robots. Death spirals/ant mills are a common occurrence because of this. There are arguments for some insects but ants are not one of them
That’s not what Kurt Cobain told me.
I’d be tempted to go and say “no shit,” but even the most obvious things have to be proven or tested. How you define consciousness can also change a lot.
