Incel is just a pejorative that makes them get even more blackpilled. Use “emotionally unstable” or even “constitutionally weak”, because if they knew the real issue, they’d be more predisposed to actually fixing themselves so that they can also get laid.
Also, legalize sex work. Just get them laid. Watch the alt right and fascism crash harder than a drunk driver speeding at night.
‘don’t call me incel or I’ll meme even harder’
XD
You joke, but this is what actually goes through their heads.
I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what goes through their heads. Been making a damn near academic study of them since stormfront took over 4chan
They’ll remind isolated with weakened impulse control because of ignoring their mental health - which is the problem I was eluding to.
But hey, your cathardic Schadenfreude is all that matters. I wonder what that says about you.
Sex ain’t gonna fix 'em.
but it will make them less celabete
But it won’t make them better people.
Therapy will though, which is why framing and semantics are important.
Then again, I’m a humanist. I humanize.
Pretty fucked up to think that sex workers should be subjected to a bunch of misogynists.
There’s a disconnect with capitalism and culture. Getting laid isn’t going to fix that.
Sex Euros should be subject to protections under the law, including the law, the courts and the healthcare system - rather than subject to persecution, ostracization and having to fend for themselves outside of the law. They’d rather want sex motels decked with panic buttons and security on guard.
Think before you assume you’re actually concerned for someone’s well being, and if you think continued illegality will somehow eradicate sex work - let me remind you that it hasn’t worked thus far. Please reconsider your stance.
Again, just because a bunch of assholes on lemmy think that sex workers should bear the burden of fixing the worlds’ incles; doesn’t mean I need to agree with that idea.
If they want to take that task upon themselves; that’s their call. If they don’t want to take that task on, that’s also their call.
You’re going on about the legality of sex work… different discussion.
No, it was a side argument regarding mental health. Fixing mental health is an everybody issue, especially when people are products of their environment. Having a healthy sex life is part and parcel of improving mental health, on top of exercise, a good diet and actually handling or leaving toxic environments.
You’re not able to see my main point because you want people to suffer, because you think they deserve to suffer, because you want to feel superior and calling me an asshole indirectly at the same time because you’re too much of a pussy to tell me directly.
So the only asshole I see here is you.
Fixing mental health is an everybody issue
No, it’s really not. People with mental health issues have absolutely no fucking business trying to fix some other person’s mental health issues. It’s NOT your place to tell individuals what they should or should not be doing. It’s NOT your place to tell people how to live their lives.
You’re not able to see my main point because you want people to suffer,
What in the hell is wrong with you? You’re the one who wants to force sex workers into fucking incels “to benefit society.”
because you think they deserve to suffer,
LMFAO - show me where that is in anything I’ve said… I’ll be waiting.
because you want to feel superior and calling me an asshole indirectly
If it makes you happier to call you an asshole directly - fine, you’re an asshole and I think you’re dumber than dog shit too.
Sex workers can choose their clients, if they want to take a misogynists money, what the fuck business is it of yours?
See… you’re pretty much aggressively agreeing with me and that’s fucking ridiculous, but also clown shit.
In this thread a bunch of people are suggesting that sex workers would/ should take on clients that have a higher than average probability of hurting them… failing to acknowledge the fact that sex workers may or may not take on a particular client.
The overall sentiment behind the comments like that is putting an obligation on to sex workers, “fuck this guy and save the world.”
Sex workers can say, “no” to a potential client just as well as they can say “yes.”
There’s also several places that already have legal sex workers; yet here we are with this problem.
Also, why do we assume that them having sex with a sex worker will magically fix the serious mental issues they’re facing? Will they suddenly become likeable dudes that women want to be with after that sex worker experience? I’m pretty sure Elon has had sex with a few sex workers. Let’s ask him…
The prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) truthfully described the problem of inceldom:
“There are incels who were born that way, and there are incels who have been made incels by others—and there are those who choose to live like incels for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” Jesus identifies three types of “incels” here: natural incels (“born that way”), forced incels (“made incels by others”), and voluntary incels (“those who choose”).
Truecels, or the truest incels, are born with facial deformities such as lopsided faces or eyes that are too close together or too far apart… but most incels today have been created by man. It’s just not possible to buy a house and have 3-4 children anymore, and most women aren’t interested in it. If you’re a man in your 20s and you’ve got good income from a job, and cheap rent somehow, then you’ll likely have to wait until your mid-thirties until all the women have got the careers and promotions that they want. Then they will “settle”.
It’s almost as if our society is designed to create more incels. Personally I am a volcel. Society is a cruel joke and I’d rather become an orthodox priest, than work 12 hours a day in a busy warehouse, driving forklifts or carrying timber. Sometimes I question why I bother contributing to society.
Neet incel detected
Man there’s some serious trolling going on here
How does not working, uh, work? Like, pretty soon after I graduated I had to have a job to pay for food and housing and a car. If I didn’t I’d be homeless. Are NEETs all homeless?
They generally live with family. Not that uncommon in many parts of the world.
So what’s the plan when family can no longer support them? At a certain point parents can no longer support adult children.
Sometimes they have to if someone is genuinely disabled. People have made a lot of money making these people mentally fucked.
Isn’t that kinda like red pilled too, most of then are probably not working either. I think some incels are a combination of red and black pilled.
Incels are a product of the Internet. Before that, we had winners and losers, and most losers weren’t that way on purpose.
I’m ugly af and I’ve had plenty of action over the years. Looks aren’t everything, bro. Be funny. Have interesting hobbies. Be deserving of respect through your own actions. Can’t really stress that last one enough.
Their first taste of incelism, was from " this pickup artist" the specially toxic ones that think women are slutty, and or the artists stalks them on camera. Now it’s alpha male bs
Ah yes, the books on how to pick up women probably started this nonsense.
You get what you give! When it comes to relationships, it often is that simple. It’s not always that simple, and yes being “Conventionally attractive” and being tall and such definitely gives you an advantage. But ultimately, if you’re a decent person who respects others, you’re going to do just fine socially.
Fuck jesus, and fuck you for following that fictional loser.
“Jesus identifies three types of “incels” here: natural incels (“born that way”), forced incels (“made incels by others”), and voluntary incels (“those who choose”).”
That’s not a thing. You’re just full of shit. You can’t even tell reality from this bullshit religious fiction.
That’s why you’re a voluntary celibate. Your religion talked you into devoting your life to them. Which makes you a giant fucking loser. Because everything you dedicated your life to is just stupid religious hate fiction.
Fuck jesus, and fuck you for following that fictional loser.
That’s not a thing. You’re just full of shit. You can’t even tell reality from this bullshit religious fiction.
That’s why you’re a voluntary celibate. Your religion talked you into devoting your life to them. Which makes you a giant fucking loser. Because everything you dedicated your life to is just stupid religious hate fiction.
I don’t know who is full of what or who hates who around here, but reading your comment I realize I would not like to be filled by what you seem to be so full of yourself it’s pouring out of your mouth every other word.
(Saying that as a non-religious person myself and as someone that has been happily living with his wife for the last 25+ years and counting, I mention it in case this helps you spare some insults but I doubt it will change a thing)
Jesus dude you stepped right into that troll pie
you stepped into post humor
I’m not religious and I’ve never been a member of any church. I’m quoting Matthew 19:12, it says eunuch but in modern language it should say incel.
Well, everybody in the manosphere is a toxic idiot/asshole, no matter what particular brand of stupidity they follow. It does feel very similar to religion, though. Some sects might be more violent, but they all follow some made-up shit.
So where do we meet the devotees in the middle to try to deprogram them?
It won’t work, as long as these right wing grifters designed to draw in incels to their circles. It seems even if they get married somehow it doesn’t solve their issues, as long as the grifters convince them otherwise
It is semi-religious in that every single head in the “manosphere” is just a leader of a cult of personality.
It may be true of humanity in general, but it’s definitely true of Americans that they just love themselves a good cult.
We need a new Judo craze in America.
What happens when you do Judo?
You become confident, and typically very humble. You also get fit AF.
What happens to guys who are confident, humble, and fit AF? They are viewed positively by women.
It’s hard work but very fun. You do need decent health insurance though because it’s easy to get injured. The younger you are when you begin, the easier it is.
You can do BJJ instead but that’s way more expensive and not always so humble.
What happens when you do Judo?
You get brain damage from getting kicked in the head all day and then you become more misogynistic, more violent and generally more right wing as a result. Unless you know of a way to pit these golems against incels and get rid of the problem that way I’m pretty sure we are going to need a more general and far reaching approach than Judo.
there are no kicks or punches in judo though
Oh yeah, I was thinking of taekwondo
I took kung fu as a teen and I remember my teachers telling me a story about how the grandmaster essentially beat up a homeless person for asking for money.
I think they were trying to communicate how badass the grandmaster was but it just made him seem like a dick.
Lol, there’s already an obsession with martial arts in America. I don’t think having more people with Joe Rogan brain running around is going to help anyone.
Yeah but they’re not talking about getting ripped and doing steroids and shit, but taking classes from an expert.
And I imagine Joe Rogan didn’t start his career by immediately getting ripped and doing steroids.
I just don’t really think something as simple as taking judo classes is really going to do much to tackle a problem that likely started at the socioeconomic scale.
A large part of conservative propaganda is telling individuals that cleaning their room or working out will solve their problems. When in reality the problems are much more complex and likely systemic in nature.
I just don’t really think something as simple as taking judo classes is really going to do much to tackle a problem that likely started at the socioeconomic scale.
I think a role model of positive masculinity is a good place to start.
think a role model of positive masculinity is a good place to start.
Right, but what about being a judo instructor makes you automatically a positive masculine role model? Steven Seagal instructs aikido an even less aggressive martial arts and he’s a giant piece of shit.
Nothing automatically makes someone a good role model obviously, but going through a program like Judo teaches you a lot of things like being humble.
I’d actually contrast that to supposedly softer martial arts like aikido where you don’t actually train with resistance and therefore don’t get that humbling effect that I was talking about.
We need a new globbin craze in America!
(I’m not saying this at all because I am the head of my local globblenoobin or because I’m a globbin enthusiast that thinks the solution to everything is everyone should be globbin like me.)
What happens when you do globbin?
You become confident, wise, and typically very humble. Some would say you become among the most humble people you could ever find. You also become lit AF.
What happens to guys who are confident, wise, and lit AF? They are viewed positively by women.
It’s very hard work but very fun. All you require is fifty thousand kopecks and a note from your local beetlebobbin. The younger you start your globbin journey the better, because it’s easier to become the head of a local globblenoobin if you start early!
You can always do glubinobin instead, but it’ll never be as good as the most highest esteemed globbin!!!
You can just say smoke weed.
Oh yeah confidence by physical appearance, the best kind of confidence… Let’s hook up him in modern society, maybe we should teach him that there exist plastic surgery too…
Confidence and being humble starts when you accept yourself aa you are and you value that. The hyper fixation of the current state of society of creating gym bros is the opposite.
The only thing about judo is the Zen part, that most of the centers don’t teach. Because they are hyper fixated on creating gym bros.
Someone that bases his confidences on what he does is not confidence. Confidence is a self appreciation and it does not depend on what you do.
Society is fucked up if the tip for helping young boy to be confident is to send them all to do martial arts. And I’m especially talking about western martial arts that deviate so much from the original meaning that they have in China or Japan.
Tell me you’ve never been to a judo class without telling me you’ve never been to a judo class.
Raising kids these days must be a real minefield with all this toxic culture being so accessible.
And most parents are too lazy or too tired to police their children
The kids are also at school half the day or more, we’re trying to teach and reinforce critical thinking as much as possible with our son. And I’m trying to show him that there are lots of ways to solve problems when examples arise.
But I’m also a dad that both fixes the cars and cooks the dinners and solders the electronics and sows on the buttons. He’s a smart kid, and a contrarian like his folks, so I hope he’s gonna be ok.
If I choose to have children, they’ll be home-schooled, and their internet use will be entirely supervised until they’re older. None of this, hand-a-toddler-a-tablet nonsense.
Fundamentalist religion is at the top of the toxic culture, and it has been around since before the incel term.
Usually, it’s just another term for the same thing, I would say.
Anyone offering easy answers to complex questions should be suspect. And that does largely incriminate all religious groups around the world. They often espouse seemingly decent and benign ideologies. But unfortunately the mindset that latches on to those things, idealogues; are the danger. Even if the ideology themselves aren’t necessarily.
We had an easy answer - a decent paying job that offered a decent lifestyle and a hope for a better future but the rich took it away.
They often espouse seemingly decent and benign ideologies.
Sometimes they are so conditioned that they don’t even think of their bigotry as bigotry.
I think organized religion fills their heads with problematic ideas about gender roles.
Heh, while religion isn’t required for that. It’s impossible to argue that it doesn’t help with it. Putting faith in anything and turning off critical thinking is always a recipe for disaster.
Pretty sure the old testament gives wives more authority in the community and in the household than what our current government is aiming for.
Fucking hell there are instructions for abortifactants in the OT
Don’t pin this on religion, this is purely the bias of petty men coloring their interpretations.
lol no one raises kids these days, they leave that to youtube
I don’t think that raising kids was ever easy.
I think the point is that parents have less influence than ever when kids are getting their values from online communities.
Sooooo… when are we gonna admit that men’s mental health is unfortunaly heavily tied to their career prospects?
No, not yet?
Okay I’ll keep waiting.
SOOOOOOOO……we can all admit now that socioeconomics is real. Cuz I’d hate to think anyone would think this is a new concept and would affect only one group recently and they still sit there and think they are unique to this ’phenomenon’ whilst it’s been an effect for generations already and has gone ignored for about as long. And they’ve had to just ‘deal with it’.
Cuz I’m real sick of seeing this argument like it’s not been around and affecting whole swaths of groups of people for centuries.
You can admit there’s been slaves and it’s affected their families poorly? Let’s start with that. And it’s still happening. And it’s still being brushed under the carpet and there’s still flagrant racism targeting entire communities to ignore their prospects.
For generations.
Cuz that all happened way before incels in the burbs came about.
Who is pretending socioeconomic inequality isn’t real? I agree with what you say, but I’m not sure who here you’re directing your comment at.
Violence is the answer
So how would you imagine it would work out for a POC to open fire like a typical Incel does?
Depends on how good his aim is and choice of venue. Also, honkeys can help out
How bout instead of waiting you arm up and help overthrow the EXTREMELY VIOLENT capitalist system? Go hunt a hedgefunder or private equity broker
Leftist incel vibes
No, freedom-endorsing patriot vibes
Buddy I know a ton of men well placed in their careers and lifestyles that eat themselves up everynight out of loneliness.
sigh
…
It’s capitalism.
Men’s well being wouldn’t be tied to career prospects if it weren’t for the rat race we are all brainwashed into since birth that is capitalism.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
“Career prospects” in this case means that men want to feel like they’re of use to society. The issue is only tied to capitalism in the sense that the current capitalist environment doesn’t offer many of them meaningful work. I’m not sure what alternative to capitalism you imagine would solve that problem - without also giving men those same career prospects they’re currently lacking. Taking care of and providing for the tribe is what we’re hardcoded to get meaning from.
I’ve seen so many men just suck at doing adult stuff in my life and career. It’s not a problem of men not having the opportunity to show value, it’s more that they expect to have value without providing anything. So if you feel useless, it’s more of a you problem that current media allows you to blame other people for.
Capitalism is causing some of these issues. The core issue is men expecting the world to hand them a sense of value.
Sometimes it helps to remember that a lot of people are actually hopelessly stupid. And this isn’t like some elitist ivory tower commentary - there is a good percentage of the population which struggles with basic problem solving, knowledge synthesis, critical thought, etc.
“Advanced capitalism” is sometimes literally called a “knowledge economy” and this has really properly fucked people who could have previously earned a fine living doing mindless physical work. And again, this isn’t like some normative statement - for most of human history this equation has been inverted, and intellectual opportunities were scarce. Honestly, part of the problem is probably very specifically that we have hit that inflection point, which is cultivating a new form of alienation for those who are on that lower cognitive tail, who both lack opportunities and are also made to feel inferior for it.
Sounds like bootstrap talk to me.
In an ideal world, yes, men and women would be handed a sense of value from society.
I thought about this for a while and nuance is missing from my argument. I was thinking of a specific few men who were basically human garbage. Like talked down to women and treated them like objects, and also sucked ass at their jobs.
It’s fine to think society should give everyone a sense of value. I disagree on the everyone part.
You don’t need someone to create jobs for you, people just need to do useful stuff and it will get attention. As long as work is organized, it doesn’t make sense someone would “create” a job for you. It’s all about History. These neo-aristocrats have a hold on capital, so they decide what to do.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t care about work with this, just that no jobs are “created”.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
This is only true in a vague, wishy-washy metaphysical sense. Fine, whatever, you have intrinsic value. If that warms your cockles, more power to you.
But the extent to which other people value you is entirely dependent on what you can provide to them. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Do you think that in a socialist society, a person who refused to do any work at all - not because they couldn’t, but just because they didn’t feel like it - would be shown general love and acceptance and kindness? No! They would, at best, be tolerated and given the bare necessities to survive - but they wouldnt be celebrated. Do you think primitive tribes love and support the lazy asshole who never contributes and just expects food to be brought to them every day? No, of course not! They kick that motherfucker out when they are dead weight.
And what you “provide” for other people doesn’t have to make money. But it does need to provide some kind of value. Do you have a beautiful smile that brightens peoples’ day? Are you tall enough to reach things on the top shelf, and willing to reach them for short people? Can you make hilarious dolphin sounds at parties? Are you a supportive friend who listens to others’ struggles when they are down? No? You just sit your ass on the couch all day and watch TV and interact with basically no one? Then why the fuck would you expect anyone to value you, when you provide no value to them? This is not a capitalism problem. This is a human solution. Dead weight gets dropped. Period. Always has, always will.
…But old people can retire. As long as they dont fuck up the government
Yes? What’s your point?
I figured it was obvious
I agree. People need to learn to get away from far-fetched fantasy if that doesn’t translate to real value. I know it’s harsh, but everyone needs to deal with reality.
Yeah and the reason young men are finding it hard to have real life friends and end up on uncle forums is because we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
Ontop of this the constant algorithms that push specific topics to people over and over due to it keeping them on the platform and therefore generates income.
It does feel like 75% of this problem could be fixed by stopping corporate greed and fixing our local communities as whole.
we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
And also shut down by female supremacist activists.
A gym started up last decade in my town, as a men’s only gym. A place for guys to come and exercise without distraction.
It got sued within the year by a woman who tried to join. It went to court. Company ran out of money before the court case closed, went bankrupt and had to close.
The case proceeded to completion, the woman won, and all the women’s groups in the area crowed about their phyrric “victory” over misogyny.
There are three women’s-only gyms in town, six in the greater geographical region. None of these have ever had men demanding to become members, because those men would be nailed to the wall for being misogynists.
This happens eventually to all “men’s spaces” that exist long enough: they are forced to no longer be “men’s spaces”, because being a “man’s space” is misogynistic.
Women’s spaces? Totally fine. Not misandric in the least.
See how “equality” works?
Holy shit, do you have negative awareness?
Holy shit, do you have negative awareness?
No, I am facts-based.
And if you had any intellectual integrity, you would provide your argument on how my example wasn’t a stellar example of societal anti-male gender bigotry.
But you can’t.
Ah, so yes, you do have negative awareness. Thanks for confirming.
Ah, so yes, you do have negative awareness. Thanks for confirming.
At least I’m not demonstrating the seething levels of gender bigotry that you are, so at least I’m one better than you.
Well, the world isn’t supposed to be fair. Some random person’s actions don’t change the existence of incels. So, why would it matter? Women’s only spaces are out there because society determined so and that’s all there is to it. It isn’t anyone’s fault. Whether you want to do something about it, do it the intelligent way.
The irony of this reply about this subject…
The lack of awareness is what really gets me on this one. It’s almost unbelievable
He just try to justify female supremacy as a thing. Can’t take him seriously
You literally implied that women fighting for the right to be included everywhere. Was about supremacy. That feminism is about supremacy. Your own words. Read your previous post. Perhaps you misspoke. But I don’t think so. And neither did most of the other people reading.
You literally implied that women fighting for the right to be included everywhere. Was about supremacy. That feminism is about supremacy. Your own words. Read your previous post. Perhaps you misspoke. But I don’t think so. And neither did most of the other people reading.
This is borderline sealioning, an explicit trolling act.
But there is a chance that your bleeding ignorance might be genuine. So I’ll bite.
The problem is that women are forcing their way into every man’s space, and preventing men from having a space of their own under cries of “misogyny”, while simultaneously fighting to keep their own spaces as women-only.
That isn’t “equality” in any shape or form. That’s gender supremacy.
A perfect example is the Girl Guides of America. Right when the lawsuit against the Boy Scouts had wrapped up and forced them to include girls, the president of the Girl Scouts admitted in private and off the record that she would rather see the entire organization shuttered permanently than allow a single boy admittance.
The same goes for shelters of all kinds, particularly those for Domestic Violence. About 70% of all non-reciprocal DV (only one person doing the hitting) is women beating up men. But of the 2,481 DV shelters in America, only TWO are for men. Nearly all the ones for women are partially to fully publicly funded, but men’s shelters are 100% privately funded because public funding is politically radioactive - the moment any politician tries to support male victims, they get painted as “violently misogynistic” by women’s groups and fail to get re-elected. Most women’s groups also refuse to discuss male victims of DV because to do so is to lead credence to the fact that they even exist.
So yes. Feminism has nothing to do with equality anymore. Feminism is straight-up gender supremacy, full stop.
It’s why I, as someone fighting for true equality, call myself an egalitarianist. I see any man being called “feminist” as nothing more than a pejorative; a mark of anti-equality shame.
FOUND ONE!!!
FOUND ONE!!!
Ah, a classic strategy of the intellectually bankrupt - an ad hominem. attacking the man instead of the argument.
Some of us tend to be obsessed with facts and evidence, and are not easily affected by the public shaming that arises from an intellectually bankrupt thought-terminating response. Try your strategy on someone else.
Facts and evidence are not on your side no matter how much you scream that they are… based on your singular anecdote, no less Classic brainwashed fascist incel vibes there.
Facts and evidence are not on your side
- Boxing clubs and some martial arts clubs that have existed for many decades
- Smoking clubs that have existed for centuries
- The f**king Boy Scouts of America
The evidence is out there for anyone not blinded by fact-free ideology. You just have to look.
How is wanting to be equal supremacist?
If you want to run a public business, the social contract has always been that you serve the public.
Claiming that men/boys need to be separated because “they can’t control themselves” only enables the incel type behaviors. As well as belittling men. Because as a cis man, I certainly have no issue respecting a woman. Or any issue focusing on other things when they’re around. If men and boys were more familiar with interacting with women, they likely wouldn’t be bitter incels. Unable to understand why no woman wants to be around them. Like, literally.
Claiming that men/boys need to be separated because “they can’t control themselves”
Where did I say anything even remotely like this? Point it out. Quote it.
But you can’t, because I didn’t.
Quit being intellectually bankrupt - quit putting words into my mouth.
Men’s spaces is what allows men and boys to open up in ways they instinctively and unconsciously prevent themselves from doing when women are around. Males have an autonomic response around women that causes them to be more closed off, more resistant to criticism, and far less likely to demonstrate vulnerability to other men.
Men’s spaces are what allow them to better learn from other men in a space that allows them to better learn more open and accepting.
It has nothing to do with your vacuous and thought-terminating “incel” bullshit.
lol I would like a male version of curves, I get anxiety and think ppl think im looking at them when I zone out, its never been an issue, like they usually just smile at me and I realize it looks like im staring at them looking away, still dont like having anxiety over it. Why is it insane to think men could be more comfortable in a mens only gym like women are at womens only. The gym in my hometown before they added cardio machines was peak.
I think the whole gym influencer stuff thing becoming popular made it worse forsure, wasnt as axious til those vids of woman recording men walking past and posting them online and my gym became a maze of tripods with everyone taking 10 hours to do their sets and check their footage. (The men are the issue here too)
But also gyms have nothing to do with third spaces, ppl use them like that but I think its out of neccesity.
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men lol. In fact it might be better if they aren’t given the specific topic of people we are talking about in this thread. In general an increase in community locations is a good thing, but it seemed especially so for people in the intel rabbit hole. Somewhere casual they can come out of their shells and meet people in the real world!
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men
Average age of the membership was 46. That doesn’t sound “young” to me.
Some men are just eager to have a communal workout environment that doesn’t have gym thots preening all over the place
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Imagine not wanting any hot women around.
Classic MGTOW vibes here
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Imagine not wanting any hot women around.
Classic MGTOW vibes here
Imagine being the guy whose primary excuse to go to the gym is to “ogle hot women”.
Yeah, you’re a real progressive guy.
The sign of a man with experience is when he’s become sick of women’s shit.
The woman I am married to - which BTW, makes me wholly ineligible for MGTOW status - is one of the few women out there I actually want to spend time with beyond social niceties. I have zero interest in the vast majority of women out there - regardless of “hotness” - because I have come to know how women in general act and react; what their motivations are and how they approach life in general. And that just makes me wholly uninterested in them.
Don’t get me wrong, I will absolutely be polite and civil to women. I have absolutely no problem socializing with them and making them feel appreciated and valued as I would any human being, regardless of gender (or fractional thereof). I just have no interest in them as women.
I feel like that’s more a problem of whatever specific gyms you are going to. Ones I go to have usually have signs up saying no cameras allowing people to just focus on their own workout. Regardless, the point is that if you want to help people overcome their “the world is against me, no woman wants me” mind set of an incel, there should be more spaces that let people interact with others outside of online algorithm controlled or bot account flooded social media platforms. Places to meet and converse with real people of any gender. All of a sudden they will probably realise that most people are actually nice. Most people don’t generally go around trying to make people feel shit or uncomfortable.
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer. After all, suppose a city makes a nice park across the street from an incel’s apartment. Maybe they’ll leave their house and go there… but do you really think this socially awkward weirdo is gonna start striking up conversations with other people there? Do you think they are going to engage with others who say hello to them, if others interact with them at all? Yes, a lack of third spaces is a problem, but I don’t think it is the lynchpin. We are also less likely to visit third places when they do exist these days due to digital distractions. People seem to be more insular, less likely to introduce themselves to strangers and less likely to be open to strangers introducing themselves. And significant social anxiety and lack of social skills is seldom overcome simply by having a neutral environment.
What we really need is grassroots social movements dedicated to being friendly to strangers, reducing digital distractions, reaching out to men who feel left behind, and informing parents about the importance of proactively ensuring that their children have healthy social and emotional lives.
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer.
And I would agree. Men in a group setting of only men will typically behave entirely differently than if you drop even a single woman into their midst. A man who is only among men will open up and behave and accept constructive criticism in ways that he will never do with even a single woman present. The change in behaviour a man exhibits in the presence of a woman is instinctual and unconscious, and is unable to be controlled or even moderated by the vast majority of men out there.
Having male-only spaces is absolutely essential to allowing men to behave as they would without the unconscious/instinctual pressure they would be subject to with a woman present.
Too bad these kinds of places are “misogynistic” in ways that women-only spaces are “not misandric”. The gender bigotry and hypocrisy in this dichotomy is blindingly overwhelming.
I’m not saying you are categorically wrong about the benefits of male-only spaces. But I will say that the attitude and language with which you are approaching the issue is not doing you any favors.
Men don’t need men-only spaces. That only deepens the rift between sexes. It’s absolutely not needed. You can completely respect the difference in sexes and that difference is welcomed, all other matters are bullshit from society. What humanity needs is respectful spaces for all sexes, not division.
Honestly, it’s whether you treat each human life as important or you don’t. I don’t think those people need to be changed, they just need to look at real life instead of running away from it. But I’ll say, working as a clerk in McDonalds doesn’t sound like the greatest achievement of all time.
I went to a Humans vs. Zombies Nerf war at a university campus a few weeks ago. A couple hundred people, real strong mix of men, women, and others. A healthy mingling of people who were clearly gun hobby adjacent and a lot of openly queer folk, which I think is really quite encouraging to see. Everyone had a good time, no issues the whole day. Good vibes all around.
At the end of the event, the student organizers tearfully announced that the school administration had decided to ban all blaster events on campus going forward. Fuck us all for trying to have a healthy good time, right?
Yes it’s capitalism but this time around, men are pacified into silence by basically abandoning them in the progressive political space.
Once upon a time, men had terrible career prospects and organized to fix society. They (and women too) gave us worker rights and the middle class.
But now, when men try to organize, they are villainized (see MRA), so they are essentially pushed to the far corners of the Internet, taking part in a culture war.
Man, occupy Wall Street really triggered an effective divide and conquer tactic.
There are many men in progressive political spaces. What?
Capitalism probably doesn’t help, but I don’t think male alienation is really unique to this time or culture. Any time you have social hierarchy the lowest tier ends up eating a lot of shit. Our social hierarchy is very capitalist but you’d easily find the same kind of thing even in hunter gatherer societies. Socialism has plenty of hierarchy baked in as well. Anarchists are about the only ones who actively attempt to “flatten” society.
Because a man’s prospects weren’t important in feudal, classical, and ancient societies?
No, they weren’t. Class was much more important. There was no class climbing prospect. You either were born into a having family or you weren’t. Even amongst peasants, men weren’t suppose to “have a career” or a prospect. You inherited whatever your family had.
There was expectations of performance, of course. There was internal competition, but no peasant would ever realistically transform into nobility via merit or otherwise.
Those ignorant of history forget that our current worldviews and values weren’t always universal. The notion of a linear career, of having prospects, to be successful, to grow from a low place and climb the social and financial rings, accumulating wealth enough to retire early then leave a lofty inheritance to children and grandchildren. All that is modern construction that is not present before the 19th century. Furthermore, the expectations that all the other poor people are lazy scumbags, but my poverty is merely a circumstantial setback is a very American exceptialism view.
So you are saying that a father of a girl at any class level in a feudal society cared not about the ability of a mate to provide for his daughter or grandchildren?
That kings and earls didn’t bring wealth and power into matchmaking calculations?
In general, no. It was a business transaction and whoever provided an appropriate dowry would get the girl. No matter their future prospects. The family didn’t care much for whatever happened to the girl afterwards. High class and nobility might’ve care for prestige and title inheritance. But otherwise it didn’t matter. We got so many historical novels with the plot point of a girl marrying a destitute nobleman and being abandoned by her original family that it is sort of a trope in the romantic period. Girl being sold by bankrupt father to save on food with one less mouth to feed was also a trope. You have to remember women weren’t valued much beyond their capacity of bearing children. They were little more than cattle for most western feudal societies.
This young men endless Pearl clutching is get tiring lol
Reading these comments makes understanding why the world is in its current state, extremely easy
Keep preaching and applying that brand of empathy guys, it will surely pay off eventually
The simple fact is no one really cares about the plight of men, and this is obvious when you look at social service funding and especially homeless shelters.
We are in a ‘bare branch’ crisis, and back when this happened in medieval China, whole gangs of angry unmarriable men would form raider bands and just pillage and rape until they were put down by the military. It happened so often that warring states would purposely stage useless battles with massive losses on both sides to keep down the ‘bare branch’ population so they didn’t get to rioting levels.
Maybe the fact that warfare is no longer culling the most desperate, lonely, and impressionable men has let to such a large population of unfocused, angry, lonely, and fundamentally unlikeable males.
It’s mainly because biologically we evolved to have kids and die on a hunt, our evolution pressures just aren’t capable of handling a male population without a certain degree of unnatural casualty.
I’m actually impressed at how ridiculous this is. But I’ll bite:
What’s the plight of men?
Is it sexual frustration?
Is the solution ensuring that young men have access to sex, regardless of the means or impact on women?
If that isn’t feasible, are we simply supposed to engage in war to cull off these sex-starved, victimized men who seemingly are incapable of contributing to society in any other way then impregnating women and waging violence?
If so, what is the benefit of living in such a world?
Men see their value as partners, leaders, and providers and also see little viable paths to be any of those things.
It’s the same issues as other genders to some degree just a lot of society really doesn’t want to listen to a man who’s down and out, because toxic masculinity isn’t just how men act but also how society can expect men to act.
Our legends are soldiers who die for great things. Workers that broke their bodies for the loved ones. Psychopath that gave up their humanity to be something important. All of which imply that just being isn’t important not by itself, and again that how people treat you. Try just being, not “making something of your self”, not “being a generous lover/boyfriend/husband”, just being a person and people honestly treat you like crap.
The dude that fed the ducks where I lived was fucking awesome, but people treated him like he was a fucking bum. The apartments harassed him for taking care of them.
The homeless people I’ve talked to, almost always had the same story, hardworking to take care of a family, something took them from them, drugs, cheating, injury (and thus disability), and then when they “had nothing” they dropped out.
Everyone hears their stories and thinks the same thing though, that they buck up and do something with their lives. Never just for their sake, not because having connections and meaning in their lives would be good for them, but it’s disgusting to others to not be useful.
I’m not the guy you’re responding to but here’s my thoughts on it based off my experience.
Is it sexual frustration?
I’d wager that that’s a big part of the problem for a lot of them. I know it was for me when I was younger. Seeing your peers entering into relationships while you can’t seem to get even a second glance from a woman does a number on you. Especially when you can’t figure out what the problem is. I was fortunate that things turned around for me pretty quickly once I got out of the toxic high school environment and moved onto a different social circle in college that helped me get out of my shell. A lot of dudes aren’t that lucky and just get stuck in that bad mindset where they feel like it’s hopeless which then takes them on to all kinds of nasty places as time goes on.
Is the solution ensuring that young men have access to sex, regardless of the means or impact on women?
No, in my opinion the solution is making mental health services available to help teach them how to deal with whatever it is that’s making it hard for them to find a partner or to cope with it if it’s something that can’t be resolved. Also just having more social opportunities in general to get people offline and meeting and interacting with each other more would be nice. Women certainly aren’t responsible for making sure men are all getting laid as often as they want but sexual frustration/loneliness is a problem a lot of men struggle with coming to terms with and it does fuck up their lives sometimes.
I think that’s a very sanitary answer. My opinion? It’s not some mysterious sociological quandary to unravel why men are sexually frustrated and lonely. These young men have few prospects, a bleak future, and have been raised with exploitative social media that’s slowly eroded their critical thinking skills and empathy towards others. Their failure to achieve a life they’ve been told they’re entitled to all their lives breeds resentment and is being manipulated against women and minorities as a function of social engineering through social media algorithms.
Our next door neighbor is an 80 year old man with 12 grandkids, a nice house and every one of his kids was fully paid for college
He had a high school diploma and was functionally illiterate
He worked as a gas station attentand until they made him manager and he retired with a pension.
NO ONE WILL EVER HAVE THAT AGAIN
Sexual frustration isn’t the cause but it is comorbid. It isn’t even nearly as much a problem as the crushing loss of self worth that poverty and hopelessness bring. It’s just the only frustration that society allows men to express is sexual because anything else is weakness. It’s that lack of self worth that make such men unappealing.
The cause is there is no reason to work for a future in a world that will barely reward you enough to survive for your hardest, most skilled efforts. Tons of young men are now looking at a bleak future and let’s be realistic, you aren’t going to be a good partner till you are financially stable.
There’s no reason to be a good member of society if the people most greatly rewarded are the ones that abuse the social contract, so a lot of men just don’t see the appeal in being appealing.
Why work on yourself if you can never afford to take a partner out? Or have time to? Why make the effort to court possible rejection when you can just sit around online with all your other lonely, attention starved, hopeless, emotionally suppressed fellows and share things that piss you off
Because being angry feels better than being depressed, and the two can’t really live in the same head.
So they stoke their hate, whatever flavor they have of it, to feel anything other than alone, unwanted, and depressed.
And after a while some clots of hate coagulate into a target or a movement, and then well if the world isn’t going to reward them for their best efforts, why not burn it all the fuck down?
As lemmy is just as biased and irrational as reddit, I fully expect this to get me banned from yet another community.
Based comment. In our society, men still believe in working 50+ hours a week for peanuts, so we won’t see any of these gangs forming any time soon. Maybe a few active clubs though lol
Sounds like Bullshit, got an sources for that?
While we’re making shit up, did you know the sky is purple? 1 + 1 = 3. Since we don’t need sources, up is down, and you are correct. You are also not an incel, and it’s 25 o clock.
“De-radicalization is a noble, worthy line of research,” she said. “But the existing evidence from that field of study suggests that prevention is easier and more effective than trying to pull these people out once they’re already in.” Potential strategies might include fostering better digital and media literacy, i.e., teaching kids to be cognizant of the content they’re consuming online. Exposure time is another key issue.
The education system world-wide is quite bad. Yes, it’s better than nothing, but still, its not good. Media and online literacy are part of the smallest subset of curriculums. As a whole, the education system fails at preparing most people for life. It’s even bad at preparing people for a vocation, its seemingly intended goal.
With better education, traditional mindsets would be much less common. I mention this because in my opinion the major cause of being an involuntary celibate and considering that status a problem, is traditionalism. That attaches self-worth to achievements in life and tightly couples success with partnership and parenthood.
Better education creates more free thinkers and independent individuals who are not easily controlled or swayed by popular narrative. They are not immune to it, nobody is, but giving humans a toolset for critical reasoning can go a long way.
That attaches self-worth to achievements in life and tightly couples success with partnership and parenthood.
I am highly skeptical of a viable alternative here. Self worth is strongly tied to the quality of our social relationships. Our social relationships depend significantly on our achievements. People want to be around other people who are succeeding, because they know that successful people can help them also be successful. Sure, your mom will always love you, hopefully… But who else?
There are countless alternatives and everybody has to find what that means for them. For example I have no real achievements to speak of. Sure, you could look at my paycheck and say “that person successful”. You could look at where I live and say “you’re successful”. You could look at where I vacation and say “you’re successful”. But what does that mean? It might mean something to you because you attribute some kind of value to it, but I don’t. My self-worth is attached to how I treat others (or how I don’t), how I view the world, how I will leave it when I’m gone and the things I tried to do before ending up as fish or worm-chow.
If you feel like you have to live up to some kind of metric of success setup by other people, that’s fine. I hope that makes you happy. It wouldn’t make me happy, but I’m not you.
I don’t feel like I have to live up to some arbitrary metric of success set up by others. I am aware of the fact that others will be interested in knowing me based on my achievements. For example, if I have the achievement “earn enough money to support myself”, other people will want to be around me than would otherwise. These are nice people whose company I enjoy, so I am going to try to keep earning this achievement.
If I can say “I have run a marathon” or “I placed 3rd in my community chess competition”, these things indicate that I have positive attributes which other people will find attractive, like fitness, consistency, intelligence, and an interest in community events. I also want to spend my time with people who have cultivated these traits - so when someone tells me that they once meditated for 24 hours straight, I am impressed and am more interested in knowing them because I intuit that spending time around them will imbue me with some of that potential. Meanwhile, if someone tells me that they spend their free time watching reality tv reruns, I am less interested in knowing them, because I am not interested in becoming more like them.
I’ve had friend groups where nobody knows which job the other person had. Somebody could’ve been a CEO or a cleaner. It didn’t matter. We went to the same concerts together, hung out in bars and the beach together, had deep political discussions and also shot the shit.
At no point did I think “wow, if this person hadn’t told me they went skydiving, I’d never hang out with them”. We happened to have the same sense of humor, watched some of the same shows, did similar activities, and were open to others vision of the world. I can’t even remember their “achievements”, just that they were nice people to be friends with.You may require achievements and some mix of attributes you attach to those achievements in order to hang out with people. That’s fine. Not everybody’s the same.
a creepy tv show with a kid who is supposedly atttractively psychopathic? puhlees. you cant handle raising kids. teenages scare the shit out of me. get over it. some karen wrote that script because she had post partum depression in the 200th trimester. grow a pair skag.
“It’s important to remember that it’s not zero-sum. We can care about the well-being of women and girls and also acknowledge that young men are struggling, too. Those don’t have to be at odds.”
Yes, I hate the way that people in media thought they could empower women by creating absolutely moronic and attractive male characters that they could sexually harass. Like, what!? That’s not the way! I think people in general need more support because we’ve sort of nullified the way support networks used to exist.
i wish i would go back to those days where i never heard of incels
That’s just ignoring the problem though. We agree there’s a huge society level problem here right?
Holy fuck I’m glad I’m not growing up now. This whole “incel” thong just makes me so fucking mad.
We have a subset of adolescent males who are harassed amd bullied and depressed and self-destructive, and how does the rest of socirty respond? The best they can manage is to gridgingly say things like:
You can both condemn their ideology and find it abhorrent and also remember that we need to have empathy for these people."
Many people—women especially—might find that a tall order, and Beckett-Herbert understands that reluctance. “I do understand people’s hesitancy to empathize with them, because it feels like you’re giving credence to their rhetoric,” she said. “But at the end of the day, they are human, and a lot of them are really struggling, marginalized people coming from pretty sad backgrounds. When you peruse their online world, it’s the most horrifying, angering misogyny right next to some of the saddest mental health, suicidal, low self-esteem stuff you’ve ever seen. I think humanizing them and having empathy is going to be foundational to any intervention efforts to reintegrate them. But it’s something I wrestle with a lot.”
How nice. You think maybe you should try to empathize with them and remember that they are human beings, but gee… that’s a tall order. You’re not sure if you can actually do it.
And then you have the gall to wonder why they exist - how they got to be that way. You should, if you genuinely want to do something about them, be offering them help to deal with their struggles before they even get to that stage. But no - you won’t do that. Fuck them - they’re boys, so they’re on their own.
We can care about the well-being of women and girls and also acknowledge that young men are struggling, too. Those don’t have to be at odds."
So that’s the best you can do? You “care about” girls and women but can only maybe manage to “acknowleedge” boys and men? And you still don’t understand the appeal of the manosphere?
"There is evidence that men who are short or not conventionally attractive are discriminated against in hiring.
So right there - there is evidence that one of the things the incel community complains about is in fact true.
But do you even acknowledge it? Nope.
“But there’s also a lot of evidence suggesting that this actually affects women more. Women who are overweight face a greater bias against them in hiring than men do, for example.”
You just breeze right past it and dismiss their feelings entirely, because girls and women have it worse.
Seriously, you still don’t get how we ended up with a generation of boys who think the world shits on them and girls and women get preferential treatment? Even after you just shat on them and gave girls preferential treatment?
Here’s va fucking news flash, since so many people are apparentlybtoo fucking stupid to figure itvout - if you all actually cared about thecstruggles boys are going through and listened to them and took them seriously and tried to help them, they wouldn’t have to turn to the manosphere to find someone who gives a shit about them.
It’s not complicated, so you have no fucking excuse. Stop belittling boys and treating their problems as if they somehow don’t count.
If the best you can manage is to maybe “acknoeledge” boys’ problems, even as you “care about” girls’, and you can’t even mention a problem boys experience without immediately shifting your focus away from them and to girls, then the boys aren’t the real problem - you are.
Holy shit an actual comment acknowledging the situation written about in the article?
And not only that, but showing actual empathy?
God-damn, this must be what finding actual gold feels like!
They hate women, want to rape them and remove their rights, so women, utterly predictably, hate them back. It’s not complicated. Try telling black people to empathise with the poor little white supremacists more and see how far you get.
Incels aren’t new btw. I tried to read 1984 recently and had to stop because the main character is an incel.
Proof?
tried to read 1984 recently and had to stop because the main character is an incel.
Back the truck up, buddy.
I must’ve missed the part where Winston Smith hated women and wanted to rape them and remove their rights.
Either that or you’ve blithely and inaccurately assigned a particularly noxious set of behaviors and beliefs purportedly engaged in and held by some members of a group to the group collectively, and thus to each and every member of it individually.
Which is the very definition of bigotry.
First 3 sentences I was with you all the way, then you lost me.
It’s not that difficult to understand
There was a time in our history when instant hatred of blacks was the norm too, and people then would’ve no doubt also been lost by any effort to fault the haters instead of the hated.
And before you even go there, they also would’ve been able to trot out a list of reasons why their hatred was purportedly justified.
At some point in the future (if we have a future) people will figure out that boys need and deserve help and sympathy because they too face hardships, and they’ll provide it for them, rather than just leaving them to deal with it on their own, then blaming them for turning to a bunch of toxic assholes who have made a comfortable living out of offering boys the help and support and affirmation they’re not getting elsewhere.
Until then, unfortunately, I expect to keep seeing a large chunk of society alternately disregard boys at best if not outright condemn them out of hand, then cry about the fact that they’re turning to the manosphere for support and affirmation.
Upvoting before your comment gets deleted or you get banned
What a shit headline. Yes we should care about people saying fuck it. But not this colored pill horseshit.
Lots of incels replying here.
Seems like a good place for them to speak up. You should really read the article if you haven’t, it’s good.
