So the Germany has been moving back and forth between Microsoft and Linux / open-source.
When Munich decided to ditch many of its Windows installations in favor of Linux in 2003, it was considered a groundbreaking moment for open source software – it was proof that Linux could be used for large-scale government work. However, it looks like that dream didn’t quite pan out as expected. The German city has cleared a plan to put Windows 10 on roughly 29,000 city council PCs starting in 2020. There will also be a pilot where Munich runs Office 2016 in virtual machines. The plan was prompted by gripes about both the complexity of the current setup and compatibility headaches.
Do you know what this smells like? Corruption and consulting companies with friends in the govt looking for ways to profit.
What else can be more profitable for a consulting company than shifting the entire IT of a city or a country between two largely incompatible solutions? :)
IIRC the last time this made big headlines they tried to roll their own distro and it went very poorly longterm. The TL;DR version was they so thoroughly took the hardest route and made questionable choices that it was almost sure to fail, and then MS swooped in with some great offers and that was that. (This is entirely my dusty recollection of articles I read about it at the time, FWIW.)
I don’t know whether it was malicious compliance because the folks doing the change didn’t actually want to do it or what, but that effort was as doomed as Firefly was when Fox aired it out of order and with a constantly shifting schedule.
Hopefully they make some sensible choices this time around (at a minimum not trying to create a custom distro) and it goes better. It would be great to see this become a cascade effect.
they so thoroughly took the hardest route and made questionable choices that it was almost sure to fail
Typical government move going full malicious compliance while allowing “a few selected friends” from consulting companies to make a ton of money. They could’ve just picked Debian and rolled with it. Let’s face it, nobody develops desktop applications anymore most of the govt work is already done on custom built web platforms, any OS that can run a browser is good enough to address around 90% of the govt daily work.
Meanwhile China is creating their own distro that will be successful for sure because they’ve plans to move the public sector and whatever private they influence to the thing.
Do you know what this smells like? Corruption and consulting companies with friends in the govt looking for ways to profit.
No it doesn’t. It smells like Microsoft has a monopoly on office software, and city employees are not tech enthusiasts. Anyone who used Office at home or in another job is going to complain when they have to learn a new software (regardless of which is “better” - for the average person, different is bad)
Plus, every document they receive from outside is almost certainly formatted in Office, so if there isn’t 100% compatibility, people will again complain.
Migrating an entire enterprise to FOSS software is not easy, and in government where leadership changes can be more regular, it’s not shocking to see the pendulum swing back and forth.
Plus, every document they receive from outside is almost certainly formatted in Office, so if there isn’t 100% compatibility, people will again complain.
That’s not like that with governments. Governments are huge clients, they can and should dictate file formats to suppliers.
If the state of Santa Catarina in Brazil, with a GDP of 2/3 of that of Munich, could transition to Open Document Format almost 20 years ago, Munich can.
They definitely can dictate requirements, however that means that you’re now making your staff play document format police.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, just that it’s an additional headache. If I were working in that office, I’d die a little inside each time I have to go back to a consultant/contractor/community member and say “can you please resubmit this, the formatting is broken when I open it in Libre Office”
Yes, again, they have the authority to do this, and it is technically feasible, but it’s going to be a bad user experience for a long time until everyone is properly “retrained”. Especially if you’re working with partners outside of Germany who have their own document standards.
I’m not saying this is a bad move, just that I understand why they might be inclined to jump back and forth.
For the average person; msoffice and libreoffice function pretty much the same. Even the icons mostly match.
Oh, cool, so I can have multiple people editing a live document at the same time?
Could be both of those things as well.
Definitely could be both, but I’d posit that it would still happen regardless of corruption, just because they’re taking on the ambitious task of trying something new.
What else can be more profitable for a consulting company than shifting the entire IT of a city or a country between two largely incompatible solutions? :)
See that’s the neat thing SH has (together with HH, HB and ST) its own IT consultancy. Public enterprise, not some public-private partnership, and 5300 staff a quite a bit more than what Munich’s IT department has.
And yes of course Munich is corrupt what do you expect it’s Bavaria.
So… it’s exactly what I said but with extra steps.
A way to provide money to the friends and have underplayed govt workers without the benefits and the stability 😂
Nah dataport doesn’t make profit, or at least it’s not paying out any to the states. It’s about as close to a ministry as you can get without being required to pay government wages and there’s not many in the industry who’d work for that. They don’t pay as much as FAANG or even SAP but among the wider industry it’s definitely competitive, especially if you don’t plan on job-hopping and dodging lay-offs.
That’s possible, but in the past I think Germany stuck with Windows after Microsoft gave them a better deal or something.
Heck, they may have even paid Germany to keep using Windows.
That is how big companies operate. There was that huge lawsuit / fine of
1.4 billion corruption
A large corporation gave cash to companies and Govt officials to migrate to their software products.
Because there’s no “Germany” in this movement. Different lands, different governments, different offices, etc.
There’s a lot of high level corruption in Germany these days, so I wouldn’t be surprised.
No.
Things were very different “back then.” Linux was less friendly at the time. And non-Microsoft products still had noticeable gaps. Web browser office suites didn’t exist.
The parts I remember reading were just that it took a long time for workers to get used to the system. Back then, home computers were uncommon for the average person. And what computer experience the average person did have was noticeably different from Linux.
I did not see articles about tech issues such as viruses or data leaks or configuration issues. Please show any if you have them.
Doesn’t Germany do this every so many years to get a better Microsoft deal?
Which is leas good, but still fine.
One of the marginal transitional benefits of open source software is keeping proprietary shit at least kind of in it’s place.
bavaria… we are different.
I wonder if this is related to https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/. This as it shouldn’t be about saving cost. It should be about being sovereign.
I’m not sure it’ll even save them money, at least initially. They’re likely paying consultants to work out the best approach, they need to retrain staff, and they’d probably go with a distro like RedHat that has vendor support (plus have paid support for LibreOffice too)
Not being held hostage by one US company should be a priority by much more countries
I hope they do not try to save that money but rather take the opportunity to invest some of it into the open source ecosystem that are now relying on.
Hahaha no way. Im Germany we say “Sparen!”
And some lobby bitches say “Schuldenbremse”
To become chancellor you have to swear an oath on the “schwarze Null”.
To become chancellor you have to swear
an oath on the “schwarze Null”.that you forgot what you did during the largest tax-scam in history
That’s not how governments work
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In reality it’s gonna be something like:
M$ charges 5M €. Libreoffice might be 1M € so they will give 1M € to OSS and waste the remaining 3M € on some overly expensive one-time crap like car infrastructure. Later they will realize that they had understaffed their IT department and will need extra 5M € paid by more state debt.
That’s called a pareto optimum
That’s still not how governments work
It would be nice if it worked like that, but we both know it doesn’t
Well think again, Germany invests in open source.
The fund will rise with the savings for sure
And having a government as a significant backer for an open source project is a great recipe for conflicts of interest and general trust erosion.
who else should be a significant backer for an open source project? google? microsoft?
Things get weird as corporations increasingly have power comparable to nation states.
But, generally, I would rather a megacorporation than a government. Because megacorps are at least “smart enough” to pretend they aren’t trying to take over the world. Whereas governments have a tendency to justify a lot of horrible shit for righteous reasons.
But, in a perfect world? I would rather a wide range of different donors and backers but mostly clustering around maybe fortune 500 companies instead of fortune 10?
Because megacorps are at least “smart enough” to pretend they aren’t trying to take over the world.
there are enough examples for corps doing evil things. You hear about them less often, because they cover their tracks and the outcry is generally smaller than when governments do similar things.
Whereas governments have a tendency to justify a lot of horrible shit for righteous reasons.
corps justify a lot of horribble shit for financial reasons. Is that better?
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I recall randomly check open source project and some of them has German public funding.
the government has given the go-ahead for the first step towards complete digital sovereignty in the state, with further steps to follow.
The term digital sovereignty is very important here. If a public administration uses proprietary, closed software that can’t be studied or modified, it is very difficult to know what happens to users’ data:
We have no influence on the operating processes of such [proprietary] solutions and the handling of data, including a possible outflow of data to third countries. As a state, we have a great responsibility towards our citizens and companies to ensure that their data is kept safe with us and we must ensure that we are always in control of the IT solutions we use and that we can act independently as a state.
Digital sovereignty seems to be the primary impetus, so this might go far. Saving money is secondary.
There were also previous notes about public tax dollars should not feed private corporations, but stay within a public system
Lol. Geez in America this would be radical ideas haha.
Seems nice not to have tax dollars going to private companies at a glance. However, I do not trust the government to get the job done right by themselves either in many cases.
- Wouldn’t be government anyway.
- I’ve worked on both public and private sectors, and they’re both run by people with the same potential for good and bad decisions and performance. I’ve seen great things coming from public organizations and terrible things coming from successful private organizations. Don’t buy into the narrative that government = bad.
digital sovereignty is among the best reasons to switch, good on them!
Saving money is secondary.
Weird how that’s always the case in a capitalist society.
Haaa! It feels good to hear. I hope that theyll support free software financially.
This is unironically a good move for them. As Office gets more and more interconnected you have to wonder if there’s a danger of using sensitive data as training for their AI. Not only will it save them money it’ll also keep their data secure.
o7
BASED
Again with the squeaky shoes
Moving to Firefox will make a huge impact too
Not sure why you were downvoted
Maybe a $BROWSER user…
It’s the validation downvote. If you get any attention at all someone somewhere will downvote you.
… told them 20 years ago already. Well then, finally …
Awesome. Bravo.
Which municipality was it that switched to Linux only to be seduced back to Windows?
Sadly, I think most employees would hate it particularly if the transition isn’t well managed.
That was Munich. This is also Munich.
Following a successful pilot project, the northern German federal state of Schleswig-Holstein has decided to move from Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office to Linux and LibreOffice (and other free and open source software) on the 30,000 PCs used in the local government.
Munich is in Schleswig-Holstein now?
Anti Commercial AI thingy
I saw a 2020 link someone else posted and got confused.
That was apparently Munich. And even with a promised 90% discount (of which I don’t know the terms), they stayed away from Microsoft. But recently they switched back anyway :(
My buddies and I have worked at companies that went through similar transitions and reversions.
The issue is not the cost or even the ideology. It is the training and support. There are a LOT of really good training resources for MS Office and, at least for millennials, outright education in k-12. So, by switching to libre office or anything similar, you are suddenly putting a large burden on yourself and random enthusiast youtubers who will start advertising nordvpn partway through explaining what a pivot table is. Because the vast majority of people don’t know how to google “how to edit the footer for slides in Libre Office”
And that RAPIDLY adds up to being a lot more expensive than even the full priced licenses from MS. your more technically competent staff suddenly have very large support burdens because “Oh, I just have a quick question” and that increases their burnout.
That said, it is going to be really interesting in the next 5-10 years (… assuming the world doesn’t end in a series of thermonuclear explosions first) since gen-z are very much brought up on Google Docs and the like. So even MS Office will have a significant training overhead for new hires.
At one of my other jobs we had to migrate a codebase from SVN to Git. it… was incredibly overdue and it was making for a greater burden on new hires who had to learn an antiquated toolset to contribute. But it was a genuine concern because most of the existing developers who understood “where the bodies were buried” had already “suffered through giving up on CVS for no good reason”. And we genuinely had to acknowledge that we would lose staff “on both sides” and, while I am not proud to admit it, more or less set up a few underperforming early career staff to be sacrificial lambs. Making it a point to let Old Fuck #5 know that the guy who was struggling to understanding how to write performant kernels was available to work through how to write a commit message. That way the rock stars who we were dependent on would not put in their notice.
This really depends on adequate training. And it’s a shame this training does not start in school. Microsoft and Google have a very strong hold in schools and that conditions people to stick with what is familiar :(
Because the vast majority of people don’t know how to google
My mother is like that. Every now and then she asks me whether I’m skilled with Excel and how to do x thing in Excel. x is usually some pretty basic thing that I don’t know how to do but I’m sure it is googlable. I wonder whether this is the norm for people who use a computer for work daily but aren’t “tech guys”.
I don’t have the direct experience you do, but when you say “training and support” I would venture that includes “the vibe” of the thing.
People who have used Windows & Office forever will find using a new platform irritating just because everything is just a little different.
Couple that with the fact that non-tech people often perceive opensource as the free+shitty version, and it’s surely a recipe for an “ideology” whereby employees feel that they’re being abused - forced to use a shitty platform so the city can save a few dollars.
There’s also a halo effect, whereby any issue gets blamed on free+shitty platform instead of simply tech being tech.
I just don’t think that training and support can really solve that. You really need employees to believe in the benefits if opensource and I’m not sure that’s achievable.
The “vibe” doesn’t really matter. You are getting paid to do a job, you are gonna do it. You can’t refuse to write documents because you have to use Word instead of Google Docs or whatever.
No, it really is the training. Because the most obnoxious thing in the work force is an old white guy. They can’t outright say “no”. But they will do everything in their power to talk about how EVERYTHING is a blocker and they can’t get any work done because nobody wanted to teach them something. Or nobody was able to answer the questions that they refuse to ask. And so forth.
Having a database of training videos or even an outsourced consultant goes a long way toward “Hey Jon? Nobody gives a shit. Do your job”. Whereas having to link to just a document or explain something yourself is how they will actively refuse to ever retain any information.
If only my employer, the state of Geneva, Switzerland, did the same.
I hate the fact we’re giving so much taxpayer’s money to the GAFAMs.
Tuens out after the switch back to windows which I linked to in another reply, they actually switched back to Linux in 2020!
They will need to stay the course and not be tempted with huge Microsoft savings Microsoft will give them just like what happened with Munich: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/
The agreement was finalized Sunday and the parties will be in power until 2026. “We will adhere to the principle of ‘public money, public code’. That means that as long as there is no confidential or personal data involved, the source code of the city’s software will also be made public,” the agreement states.
poggers
I don’t think it is that great of cost savings as you need staff to support Libreoffice
You only need IT support, which you would be paying for one way or another with MS.
You need support for Windows and MS Office.
Well, guy who actually lives there (Schleswig-Holstein) here. Be precise in what’s written in tfa. What it laments about is that one (single) work place is about to be installed and that subsequent steps are about to follow.
I don’t want to sound too pessimistic here. The fact, that this topic is on the high level agenda shows that it has strong supporters - for the moment.
But weighing in past decades’ province goverment’s spendings in large scale software projects and peoples’ fear of everything even marginally IT, I’m very reluctant to see the big move here. Opposition against changes to my windows is simply unfathomable strong.
Nevertheless - and I mean that - it’s a good development.
Do they seem like they are paying for a integrator like SUSE (they are THE German commercial FOSS/Linux company in my head) or is it more enthusiasts trying to push changes and providing support?
I guess it will be even worse. Instead of taking good money for hiring good people (I know this strategy is over simplified, as there are mandatory regulations for gv not being allowed to compete with the private sector. But if there would be the political will to find a way, there would be a way), gv will take even more money and found a consortium of ‘experts’ who will spend most of the funding to invent an exceptionally complex new wheel that none has ever seen before and take years in development… And the next gv will roll back. And that’s that. Thinking about it I notice how desillusionated I became over the years…
Hopefully I will be wrong. This time. At least once.
