- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
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Honestly, we’re having the same revolution for white-collar jobs that automation made for blue-collar ones.
Like with chess, we’re going to reach a point where AI isn’t just ‘as good as humans,’ but it will be many times superior to the point humans need to make their own competitions excluding AI in order for them to be fair.
Deskilling blue collar labor is how America gave China a manufacturing edge. What do you think will be the result of deskilling white collar labor?
Actually, it’s the American business owners that gave china the manufacturing edge.
They cared more about maximizing profits off of Americans rather than competing with foreign companies offering customers better deals.
Keep in mind, you’re trying to argue against industrialization right now. Are you suggesting we shouldn’t have industrialized to prevent “deskilling blue collar labor” so “China doesn’t get a manufacturing edge”?
America gave china the manufacturing jobs by failing to block slave labor imports and failing to put proper tariffs to account for differences in cost of living to a reasonable extent. I say this at risk of sounding like a trumpy…
This is to be clear that while I advocate for some level of global inter investment, having capacity in your home country is ever very important. Usa could’ve kept the jobs if they were smart back then.
Eeeeeeh… China was rapidly industrializing, and the low skill manufacturing jobs they took were going to leave the US anyway. While ensuring the rights of foreign workers is definitely something I support, it still wouldn’t have stymied the tidal shift in low skill labor to lcol nations.
Ensuring a domestic supply of some goods is definitely important. But tariffs aren’t the answer here - instead, the answer is to support local industries by giving them government contracts to produce their goods, which the government can then use and/or stockpile when we aren’t in a time of crisis.
And anyway, while a great amount of manufacturing labor went overseas in the last century, American has been reclaiming ground recently… with robots.
Basically no matter how you split it, those high paying, low skill manufacturing jobs were never going to stick around for long. That’s just the forward march of technological progress.
Yeah sure, enjoy that glue pizza.
If my surgeon was booting up chat gpt I’d just euthanize myself to save them the trouble.
Yeah, people say they don’t want AI driving cars while AI has better safety records than the average human.
People also fought back against having machinery to automate production.
You might want to look into the “Luddites.”
I hope you can admit you’re wrong when the time comes, but I genuinely expect you to just pretend you never stuck your neck out in the first place.
I think you should look at what the luddites actually were and not just how they were portrayed by capital
Don’t act like a smug asshole while simultaneously admitting you’re replaceable at work, can’t draw, can’t drive and can’t think for yourself.
🥱
Here’s a wrench for you: the Luddites were 100% right
Right about what?
Realistically, AI will continue to advance and will only stop when there’s another winter, although there will likely be protests, which will likely be history depending on their effectiveness in society.
Something similar happened with the protests against the Apollo program; the programs are currently remembered more than the protesters.
another winter
❄️🤔
Hear! Hear!
How long before Respondus introduces an education equivalent of BattlEye or other kernel-level anticheats as a result of stuff like this?
And I don’t mean the Lockdown browser, I mean something beyond that, so as to block local AI Implementations in addition to web-based ones.
Also, I’m pretty sure there’s still plenty of fields that are more hands-on and either really hard or impossible to AI-cheat your way through. For example, if you’re going for carpentry at the local vo-tech, good luck AI-cheating your way through that when that’s a very hands-on subject by its nature.
Or, ya’know, they could just have students take tests on paper in a lecture hall.
Doesn’t even need to be paper. Have locked-down, internet-disconnected computers in the exam hall bas glorified typewriters.
Exactly, that’s how it works in my country. I think the PCs are connected to a local server that then matches the results to your id and email.
Or even actually show what they learned in a practical sense. In a vo-tech, for example, have the students fix up a car or get a small LAN set up, or even in the case of art school, have the class do a mural outside as their end-of-instruction project (which sounds like a really fun end-of-instruction project, btw), with admin approval, of course.
tools like that were going big in the pandemic for online exams. Basically rootkits that fully compromise your machine
Cheating themselves out of education.
Computer science is going to be q commodity job. Prediction of three tiers:
- Tier 1: No education requirement. I write code and build things. Large percentage of developers.
- Tier 3: Science based, high education working on algorithms, physics, and other elements requiring an understanding of matters in deeper education
- Tier 2: Right in between 1 and 3, may require formal education, but definitely experience. Will understand applications of high science, and can both program well and manage teams. Will replace current nontechnical middle management, because who needs that when the market is flooded
We’ve been headed this way for years, AI is just speeding it up.
I mean college is cheating them out of 200k plus of money so do you blame them?
Only in the USA
That’s always been my issue. I worked full time and went to school full time when I was in college and still had to take out some loans. I did have some scholarship money that covered about half of it, but they only covered four years. My degree path didn’t have any free electives meaning in every assignment, test, and class I only had a single shot. Failing would likely mean having to retake a class and push graduating out to a year which would have doubled the amount of debt I came out with. All just to get a piece of paper that would allow me to do the job that I knew I would be good at and enjoy.
The entire course of my life was at the mercy of some bad teachers and worse bureaucracy. I get that my profession shouldn’t just hire people without any kind of training and hope for the best, and there were things I learned that had value, but the stakes and imbalance of power is so high I can’t really be mad at some one “cheating” when they themselves are getting royally fucked.
If you’re only doing university for a piece of paper, you done gone screwed up.
University is to learn how academia works so that you can continue your development independently afterwards. You become capable of researching topics, reading the papers and solving a problem you’ve never faced before.
Nobody ever tells you this, but your first degree is more about developing you than developing your knowledge. If you just askGPT the whole time you’re cheating yourself.
That’s great, but if they want to make that the goal then they should structure it in a way that is more conducive to that goal. When failure without dire consequences isn’t an option, then they have fucked up.
Academia is a universe unlike anything else in the world. Academics will not prepare you for a job in the real world; it will prepare you to climb the academic ladder
make education stupider and less important, put AI assistants in front of everyone, automate as much as possible, and allow the proletariat class to enjoy decreasing levels of control over society
It’s almost as if college isn’t about bettering yourself but paying a racket so you can check off a mandatory box on your resume for the pleasure of your corporate liege-lords…
Correct.
It’s also why everyone needs a linkedin and to wear a suit. We have an environment where you’re not an attractive hire unless you can show you’ve ‘paid into the system.’
It’s fucked, and that’s by design. We need to start respecting people who are fighting back instead of shaming them.
Do we have to throw mud at “cheating” students? I’ve been hearing similar stuff about K-12 for a while with regards to looking up answers on the internet, but if the coursework is rote enough that an LLM can do it for you, then A. As a student taking gen-eds that have no obvious correlation to your degree, why wouldn’t you use it? And B. It might just be past time to change the curriculum
How do you teach a kid to write in this day and age? Do we still want people to express themselves in writing? Or are we cool with them using AI slop to do it?
I may disagree with you that the ability to write alone is where the problem is. In my view, LLMs are further exposing that our education system is doing a very poor job of teaching kids to think critically. It seems to me that this discussion tends to be targeted at A) Kids who already don’t want to be at school, and B) Kids who are taking classes simply to fulfill a requirement by their district— and both are using LLMs as a way to pass a class that they either don’t care about or don’t have the energy to pass without it.
What irked me about this headline is labeling them as “cheaters,” and I got push-back for challenging that. I ask again: if public education is not engaging you as a student, what is your incentive not to use AI to write your paper? Why are we requiring kids to learn how to write annotated bibliographies when they already know that they aren’t interested in pursuing research? A lot of the stuff we’re still teaching kids doesn’t make any sense.
I believe a solution cuts both ways:
A) Find something that makes them want to think critically. Project-based learning still appears to be one of the best catalysts for making this happen, but we should be targeting it towards real-world industries, and we should be doing it more quickly. As a personal example: I didn’t need to take 4 months of biology in high school to know that I didn’t want to do it for a living. I participated in FIRST Robotics for 4 years, and that program alone gave me a better chance than any in the classroom to think critically, exercise leadership skills, and learn soft and hard skills on my way to my chosen career path. I’ve watched the program turn lights on in kids’ heads as they finally understand what they want to do for a living. It gave them purpose and something worth learning for; isn’t that what this is all about anyway?
B) LLMs (just like calculators, the internet, and other mainstream technologies that have emerged in recent memory) are not going anywhere. I hate all the corporate bullshit surrounding AI just as much as the next user on here, but LLMs still add significant value to select professions. We should be teaching all kids how to use LLMs as an extension of their brain rather than as a replacement for it, and especially rather than universally demonizing it.
I have been tutoring high school students as a volunteer for nearly a decade. Most of these in early high school (9-10) can’t even write a simple paragraph. How are they going to express critical thinking when they can’t even write very simple things?
I mean we’re talking about kids who are functionally illiterate. The system has failed to teach them this basic skill. Critical thinking about complex and nuanced topics is way beyond that! And the problem is they’re not going to learn the basic skills if they use AI to prevent themselves from doing any work.
By analogy, imagine trying to train people to be Olympians. Before they can perform in their sport they need to train their bodies to build muscle and endurance. Yet they insist on bringing a forklift to the gym because they think what it really want them to do is move weights around, not lift them.
I mean we’re talking about kids who are functionally illiterate. The system has failed to teach them this basic skill. Critical thinking about complex and nuanced topics is way beyond that!
I agree with you there, and I don’t think we’re really all that far off from each other. Writing has both synthetic (the critical thinking to which I referred) and syntactical (what I believe you’re getting at) components to it, and kids have been missing out on the synthetic component for quite a while now and are now beginning to miss more of the syntactical part as a result of AI.
Where I disagree with you is:
And the problem is they’re not going to learn the basic skills if they use AI to prevent themselves from doing any work.
Kids not doing their work didn’t start with AI. LLMs haven’t even been mainstream or otherwise publicly available for three years yet. A lot of these kids were never going to complete coursework in good faith because the curriculum is failing to engage them. Either that, or there are influences in their lives that make it altogether impossible, such as poverty or neurodivergence. In my other comment I was speaking mainly to career readiness, but the principle of meeting students where their circumstances and interests lie applies throughout their time in K-12.
A trend I’ve noticed in this issue is demonizing students (hence why I keep bringing it up). These kids had nothing to do with their parents putting iPads in front of them instead of reading to them when they were little, or having to take classes that were designed before their parents were born, or so many other observations about the structure of education that make it archaic and broken (perhaps by design, but that’s out-of-scope here). Every stakeholder around this issue should be discussing with each other the ways that school can better serve students; instead, we’ve hastily created a stigma that using AI to complete assignments that you don’t understand, don’t have time for, or simply couldn’t care less about makes you a cheater.
It is truly a wicked problem, and I believe the way that our leaders haven’t adapted education is primarily to blame. I haven’t even mentioned social media, and I think that government’s inability to regulate it has its share to blame for kids struggling in school. But as problematic as AI is, it is not the reason why this is happening, and we may have to agree to disagree on that point.
Hey I’m not blaming students for any of this. I’ve been in the trenches with them this whole time. I’ve witnessed first hand the power of Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, and mobile games. It robs them of their ability to focus. Then when they’ve procrastinated long enough they get exasperated from stress and fire up ChatGPT for a way out.
I’ve tried to help a teacher who can’t even get her own son to study. No avail.
I can’t really blame our political leaders for this. They don’t know what they’re doing either. They had no more ability to anticipate the effects of all this stuff than the rest of us.
The only ones who truly anticipated these issues are the folks working in social media. They saw what was happening first hand, through their metrics. They began unplugging their families from technology before anyone else.
I also don’t blame our teachers nor the folks in charge of setting curriculum (also teachers for the most part). I have friends who have worked in education research. They simply do not have the resources to compete with social media psychology researchers (working for big tech) who run A/B tests around the clock on millions of people in order to learn to maximize engagement. What hope does a teacher have when facing a class of 30+ bored, tired, social-addicted, and disillusioned teenagers? Very little.
I think we’re not too far from a huge social media and technology backlash. But before that we’re going to see a lost generation of squandered human capital.
While other new students fretted over the university’s rigorous core curriculum, described by the school as “intellectually expansive” and “personally transformative,” Lee used AI to breeze through with minimal effort.
Lee goes on to claim everyone cheats. (He’s also that AI Amazon Leetcode interview person.)
Lee said he doesn’t know a single student at the school who isn’t using AI to cheat.
Well duh, what other kind of people would he know.
Also, of course he knows every student taking every course so his opinion is obviously super representative
A thief is someone that thinks everyone steals.
Always have been, as I’ve seen during my UCLA days of people buying exam answers from previous weekends and paying for papers, etc… I’m glad I never bothered, mostly because of dignity but what because I was poor (although those correlate). Rich people have plenty of ways to game the system, though.
it really shows too because hiring people sucks these days nobody knows anything
What is that supposed to mean?
“I don’t understand that inexperienced people are inexperienced.”
Assuming they are referring to new graduates.
When I look at the quality of prominent Americans who went to ivy league schools, I don’t think cheating your way through college will make much difference.
Pete hegseth graduated from princeton without the use of AI and he is one dumb fucking cunt, for example
He used money instead, way better than AI.
It’s always been possible to cheat your way through school but as more and more people start cheating it just is going to further worsen the quality of college graduates
Not just Americans, the British political class has similar issues.
It’s pretty easy to be both dumb and well educated, I do it every day
I seen students put no work into changing the output text from chatgpt. Like, not even trying to hide it. Shm.
Seen’t’ed*, if we’re on the topic of doing our own writing.
This word sequence is like a brain rot of English. So many native speakers refuse to say, “I have seen.” It’s driving be bonkers.
It’s called dialect, you sumbitch. Sometimes folks be typin’ like they talkin’, it ain’t the end of the world.
Your mom dialects my balls.
:c
Y’all need to simmer down.
Before people just used chegg at least for math homework. Ai chat bots are quicker and can write papers but cheating has been pervasive since everyone once laptops became standard college student attire. Also the move to mandatory online homework with $200 access codes. Digitize classwork to cut costs for the university while raise costs on students. Students are going to use tools available to manage.
This eras, “you won’t have a calculator everywhere you go”
