• dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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      3 months ago

      No good god would make an unlasting punishment. if you have forever, then even Hitler, Dahmer would have enough time for a finite punishment. Even the worst people in the world don’t deserve a unlasting punishment.

        • psud@aussie.zone
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          3 months ago

          Depends on the flavour of Christianity

          At one end unforgiven sins condemn you to the ancient Greek underworld, slightly modified

          At the other end you land in limbo if you haven’t been perfect for a time that fits, thence to heaven for the rest of forever

          Beyond that end, their god is infinitely forgiving so everyone goes straight to heaven.

          • GoodLuckToFriends@lemmy.today
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            3 months ago

            At the other end you land in limbo if you haven’t been perfect

            Slight correction, but limbo was the ‘first’ area of hell, where you just get bored forever. Purgatory was where you washed off the crusted shit on your soul and could eventually get into heaven.

            • psud@aussie.zone
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              3 months ago

              Thanks. It’s been decades since my last bit of mainstream Catholic education

      • Maeve@midwest.social
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        3 months ago

        The Nicean Council excluded a bunch of books, and Jesus was Jewish. In kabbalah, you learn about reincarnation, and so why did people think Jesus and John were OT prophets? So karma isn’t a punishment, but a teacher, you repeat lessons, which are scaffolded, until they are mastered. Well, why don’t you remember past life lessons? Why aren’t crib sheets allowed in exams? Is doing the right thing only for personal gain still the right thing? Then no one should be upset with billionaires for reversing dei. And Jesus said the whole law can be summed love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Not better than, not less than. And that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Also the fall of the morning star gave “the devil” the earth as his dominion. “Be in the world, not of it,” and “be wise as serpents, innocent as doves,” eg be neither boot nor doormat. Love you neighbor as yourself. Ha-Satan is the prosecutor, who freely comes and goes into heaven (where is the Kingdom?) who lists every reason (sin) you don’t get to be there (schism of self). And a defending angel can list one redeeming quality and you’re in. You passed that particular lesson set. Now you have a new set.

        Also Jesus said he teaches in parables, don’t take things so literally. Why wouldn’t he want every student to understand? They’re not on that lesson set, yet. Someone just learning division isn’t ready for trig.

        • dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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          3 months ago

          You make a great point about how we’re not allowed to remember lessons. Wouldn’t the world be more peaceful if everyone knew what lessons they had already learnt? Like say in one life someone insults someone with a disablity, the next life they’re a person with the same disability and they remember the insults they said so they know how shitty they made that person feel? And in turn, would make them do the right thing more often, not because of personal gain but because it’s the right thing to do. Without the memories, people could revert straight back to throwing insults. It’s like putting a kindergartener in college math because “Well you’ve been here before so you must remember.” but the kindergartener can’t even do his times tables.

            • dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Being hold accountable actions I never took is the concept of karma. This life I have now is the result of all my previous karma in the buddhist view of it. But how do I know I deserve this life? What did I do to earn it? I didn’t do anything, I just happened to be born in this life. It doesn’t feel fair to not know why we’re in these lives to begin with.

              Your analogy seems great to me. I would know why I’m in that specific life and I would know how long I have here. Each life would feel like making progress and making progress would show I’m truly sorry for being a serial murderer in a past life. That should be how reincarnation works, everyone knows who they were in a past life and if it’s lesson oriented how many lives they have to live. If someone knows they have 300 lifetimes then they would know all the details of what they did in the 300 lifetimes. Plus if god is truly omnipotent, then he can create things he himself hasn’t even seen still making things novel while rembering past lifetimes.

          • Maeve@midwest.social
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            3 months ago

            My personal perspective is we forget because doing the right things for the wrong reasons, hoping for punishment or reward, is wrong. And also because variables change over time, so the lessons can’t be presented in the same way. For instance the difference between common core multiplication and memorizing the tables.

            Or another example, the periodic tables contain n elements at one time, x elements another.

            So even if I remember the periodic tables from when I learned it (I don’t!), they’ve changed in the decades since, so my knowledge is incomplete. Assuming I had the physical, mental, financial and material capacity to become a physicist, should I choose, I have a lot to relearn, unlearn, and learn new things, additionally. And that’s just this lifetime.

            I appreciate your non-hostile inquiry style. Thanks so much. Btw these things don’t require God. It’s just an allegorical tool. Just like communism has many approaches and corruptions as there are minds to conceive them, so too religions. Even Buddhism and Taoism.

            • dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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              3 months ago

              Sure, lessons can’t be presented in the same way. I agree with you on that. But different lessons while rembering the previous lessons would make life much more meaningful in my view.

              It’s like watching movies. Movies are not presented all the same way because that would be boring but having memories of all the movies you’ve seen makes you appreciate film even more, especially if it’s a great one. A comedy movie has a different experience than a thriller movie but remembering the movies you’ve seen can make you appreciate the films even more. But now imagine watching rotating between superbad and taken and you don’t even remember you’ve already watched them. That’s what not remembering the lessons feels like to me.

              I will always try and respect people’s viewpoints even if I don’t agree with them myself. You’re also doing a good job at that, so well done.

              • Maeve@midwest.social
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                3 months ago

                Thanks so much, I appreciate your respect and return it! If you’re native English speaker, do you remember how to diagram sentences? If not, do you remember every from every class you’ve taken? Photographic memory allows for that, but even people with that gift forget things. My point is, it gives us a loose framework. Variable changes affect data, and if we’re living in a lab, some variables aren’t controlled for, we can’t even be aware of every variable (Einstein’s spookiness? Not sure, I have to go back and look, later). Or how “ethers” became gasses. Or demon possession became mental illness, but we still say we’re fighting our demons. Sorry, I should be working so this is rushed.

                I see it like a puzzle on a tabletop, but there’s not room for the completed puzzle and all the pieces spread at once, so some being left in the boxtop. Generally, people find and place border pieces first, then put more pieces from the bottom on the table to fit into place. And I’m imperfect so there’s that.

  • NutWrench@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    I’m also sick of hearing people say, “God never gives you more than you can handle.”

    I know people who have been driven batshit insane by what God has given them.

    • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
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      3 months ago

      He sounds like Elwood from The Blues Brothers. “We’re on a mission from God.”

  • Zerush@lemmy.ml
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    3 months ago

    Church dilemma - knowing the will of God vs affirming that God’s ways are inscrutable, According to convenience

  • LandedGentry@lemmy.zip
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    3 months ago

    I’m tempted to give the actual theological answer here but I have a feeling it will not be well received lol

  • FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    Yup.

    The teachings of Christianity don’t make any fucking sense. (Unless you’re willing to gaslight yourself for a lifetime.)

  • dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    There’s actually a specific christian worldview called Calvinism where the view is that god wanted Adam and Eve to eat the apple and God was the snake on the tree which means god wanted all the wars on earth if you believe that view.

    • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      3 months ago

      Pish. Calvinism teaches that God was the serpent? You’re a bit off base there.

      Waiting for reference. Other than a Chick tract.

      • dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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        3 months ago

        Ok, I misrembered the details so my bad on that one. What it actually teaches was that god created the serpent, put the serpent in the garden, knew Adam and eve wouldn’t resist the serpent so god still wanted all the wars and misery in this world.

        • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          3 months ago

          “Wanted” is a funny word. The idea that there’s something difficult to understand about a supreme being who is so far above us that he created not only us but the entire universe according to what’s revealed about him? That shouldn’t seem a strange idea.

          Imagine if we met an advanced alien who had technology far beyond ours. We might not be able to understand a lot of the way they thought, spoke, or acted.

          The thing is, it actually says that in the Bible.

          Isaiah 55:8-9 NLT “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

          Yet we keep wanting to subject Him not only to our reasoning, but to our language.

          • GoodLuckToFriends@lemmy.today
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            3 months ago

            My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.

            Yet if adam and eve had just eaten the fruit of immortality, apparently they would have been exactly like god. That’s also in the bible. It’s almost as if there are contradictory parts and it’s full of bunk…

          • dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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            3 months ago

            It’s not that diffcuilt to understand so I don’t know why you assumed I would find it diffcuilt to understand. I’m not that religious myself, I’m more agnostic but I’m happy to have respectful conversations about different viewpoints than mine.

            There are a few verses which state god planned everything that would happen in this world. Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”

            Ephesians 1:5 and 11 “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will… In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”

            So it’s not difficult to understand with these verses that in the lense of calvinism, god planned everything that would happen in this world and knew exactly what would happen.

            • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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              3 months ago

              Yes, we agree completely. I just meant the word “wanted” is pejorative. You can intend something without necessarily wanting it.

              When he was little my son broke the growth plate off of his arm at the wrist. It was essential that it be pushed back into place. The doctor needed me to hold him still, to hold his arm still as he pushed that bone back on top where it belonged.

              My son had a lot of pain. I didn’t want to hold him still while he endured that pain. But I intended to. I did it.

              • dontbelasagne@lemmy.world
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                3 months ago

                And all those events were planned under the lense of calvinism which you had no control of planning it yourself so predestination and no free will.

                • Melatonin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                  3 months ago

                  Well, Christianity presents us with many things with seemingly contradictory qualities that are nonetheless to be held in tension, and not resolved.

                  For instance, Jesus Himself is fully man, and fully God. Not half and half. No division, no partiality. Completely 100% a man. And completely 100% God.

                  Same with the Bible. Who wrote it? Humans, of course. Every word. AND…

                  2 Timothy 3:16

                  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

                  There are earthly parallels as well. Light is both a wave and a particle (we’re still sorting that out). Schrödinger’s cat. There are lots of examples.

                  There’s nothing unusual about a situation where God is fully in control of everything and humans have free will. It’s just hard to wrap your head around.

                  The answer isn’t to say, “God can’t (or won’t) do anything about that.” That denies God’s power and goodness.

                  The answer is also not to say, “Since I’m God’s puppet I have no will or blame.” That denies our responsibility and sin.

                  The Bible is quite clear that both are true. God is powerful, good, and in control. And humans are capable, sinful, and responsible for their actions.

  • I Cast Fist@programming.dev
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    3 months ago

    No matter how well you point out the paradox (if God knows everything that will happen, free will doesn’t exist, because everything is predetermined, just like a fully written book), a significant portion of christians will simply ignore and keep circling between “but God gave us free will” and “God knows everything”

  • PattyMcB@lemmy.world
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    3 months ago

    If God were all-powerful, he could create another all-powerful God who could destroy him against his will, thus making him less than all-powerful.

    The mere idea of an all-powerful God contains a ton of paradoxes.