- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
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Satan: Hey, i only do Black Metal bands and orgies, all other things are with the other bloke
I stand with Satan
Like, did you meet a person who unironically blames satan for everything bad that’s happening to them?
“I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”
- George W Bush
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html
He sounds like Elwood from The Blues Brothers. “We’re on a mission from God.”
Exactly as Aizen planned
That is exactly true. Life is only about 3 things: food, reproduction and dealing with boredom. Humans add so many colours to that, that it looks like we do more than those 3 things so that’s where you might see free will.
You have the freedom to choose God or face an eternity of unimaginable suffering.
No good god would make an unlasting punishment. if you have forever, then even Hitler, Dahmer would have enough time for a finite punishment. Even the worst people in the world don’t deserve a unlasting punishment.
The Nicean Council excluded a bunch of books, and Jesus was Jewish. In kabbalah, you learn about reincarnation, and so why did people think Jesus and John were OT prophets? So karma isn’t a punishment, but a teacher, you repeat lessons, which are scaffolded, until they are mastered. Well, why don’t you remember past life lessons? Why aren’t crib sheets allowed in exams? Is doing the right thing only for personal gain still the right thing? Then no one should be upset with billionaires for reversing dei. And Jesus said the whole law can be summed love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Not better than, not less than. And that the kingdom of heaven is within us. Also the fall of the morning star gave “the devil” the earth as his dominion. “Be in the world, not of it,” and “be wise as serpents, innocent as doves,” eg be neither boot nor doormat. Love you neighbor as yourself. Ha-Satan is the prosecutor, who freely comes and goes into heaven (where is the Kingdom?) who lists every reason (sin) you don’t get to be there (schism of self). And a defending angel can list one redeeming quality and you’re in. You passed that particular lesson set. Now you have a new set.
Also Jesus said he teaches in parables, don’t take things so literally. Why wouldn’t he want every student to understand? They’re not on that lesson set, yet. Someone just learning division isn’t ready for trig.
You make a great point about how we’re not allowed to remember lessons. Wouldn’t the world be more peaceful if everyone knew what lessons they had already learnt? Like say in one life someone insults someone with a disablity, the next life they’re a person with the same disability and they remember the insults they said so they know how shitty they made that person feel? And in turn, would make them do the right thing more often, not because of personal gain but because it’s the right thing to do. Without the memories, people could revert straight back to throwing insults. It’s like putting a kindergartener in college math because “Well you’ve been here before so you must remember.” but the kindergartener can’t even do his times tables.
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Being hold accountable actions I never took is the concept of karma. This life I have now is the result of all my previous karma in the buddhist view of it. But how do I know I deserve this life? What did I do to earn it? I didn’t do anything, I just happened to be born in this life. It doesn’t feel fair to not know why we’re in these lives to begin with.
Your analogy seems great to me. I would know why I’m in that specific life and I would know how long I have here. Each life would feel like making progress and making progress would show I’m truly sorry for being a serial murderer in a past life. That should be how reincarnation works, everyone knows who they were in a past life and if it’s lesson oriented how many lives they have to live. If someone knows they have 300 lifetimes then they would know all the details of what they did in the 300 lifetimes. Plus if god is truly omnipotent, then he can create things he himself hasn’t even seen still making things novel while rembering past lifetimes.
My personal perspective is we forget because doing the right things for the wrong reasons, hoping for punishment or reward, is wrong. And also because variables change over time, so the lessons can’t be presented in the same way. For instance the difference between common core multiplication and memorizing the tables.
Or another example, the periodic tables contain n elements at one time, x elements another.
So even if I remember the periodic tables from when I learned it (I don’t!), they’ve changed in the decades since, so my knowledge is incomplete. Assuming I had the physical, mental, financial and material capacity to become a physicist, should I choose, I have a lot to relearn, unlearn, and learn new things, additionally. And that’s just this lifetime.
I appreciate your non-hostile inquiry style. Thanks so much. Btw these things don’t require God. It’s just an allegorical tool. Just like communism has many approaches and corruptions as there are minds to conceive them, so too religions. Even Buddhism and Taoism.
Sure, lessons can’t be presented in the same way. I agree with you on that. But different lessons while rembering the previous lessons would make life much more meaningful in my view.
It’s like watching movies. Movies are not presented all the same way because that would be boring but having memories of all the movies you’ve seen makes you appreciate film even more, especially if it’s a great one. A comedy movie has a different experience than a thriller movie but remembering the movies you’ve seen can make you appreciate the films even more. But now imagine watching rotating between superbad and taken and you don’t even remember you’ve already watched them. That’s what not remembering the lessons feels like to me.
I will always try and respect people’s viewpoints even if I don’t agree with them myself. You’re also doing a good job at that, so well done.
Thanks so much, I appreciate your respect and return it! If you’re native English speaker, do you remember how to diagram sentences? If not, do you remember every from every class you’ve taken? Photographic memory allows for that, but even people with that gift forget things. My point is, it gives us a loose framework. Variable changes affect data, and if we’re living in a lab, some variables aren’t controlled for, we can’t even be aware of every variable (Einstein’s spookiness? Not sure, I have to go back and look, later). Or how “ethers” became gasses. Or demon possession became mental illness, but we still say we’re fighting our demons. Sorry, I should be working so this is rushed.
I see it like a puzzle on a tabletop, but there’s not room for the completed puzzle and all the pieces spread at once, so some being left in the boxtop. Generally, people find and place border pieces first, then put more pieces from the bottom on the table to fit into place. And I’m imperfect so there’s that.
I always wondered about that. When would enough be enough.
Depends on the flavour of Christianity
At one end unforgiven sins condemn you to the ancient Greek underworld, slightly modified
At the other end you land in limbo if you haven’t been perfect for a time that fits, thence to heaven for the rest of forever
Beyond that end, their god is infinitely forgiving so everyone goes straight to heaven.
At the other end you land in limbo if you haven’t been perfect
Slight correction, but limbo was the ‘first’ area of hell, where you just get bored forever. Purgatory was where you washed off the crusted shit on your soul and could eventually get into heaven.
Thanks. It’s been decades since my last bit of mainstream Catholic education
It could take hundreds or thousands of years but no one person deserves unending punishment for finite sins.
I like to think of why people suffer or God allows it like this. Even if you don’t think there is a plan, 70 years on earth vs an infinity of bliss is a good deal.
I think of this too, and then I think God gave humans a brain to figure out what to do.
Free will is an illusion.
I’m tempted to give the actual theological answer here but I have a feeling it will not be well received lol
Try us. I’m curious! The theological answers I know don’t really fundamentally solve the issue, just reword and skirt around it
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Yup.
The teachings of Christianity don’t make any fucking sense. (Unless you’re willing to gaslight yourself for a lifetime.)
Too bad our entire society is based on this nonsense.
Agreed.
Now now, don’t discount free reign to also gaslight others for a lifetime as well. And judge and shame others too. It’s great for complete assholes.
I think that’s part of the appeal: the ingrained superiority Christians feel.
Not just Christians, that’s a common thing with any cult, be it for a person, a country, etc.
That’s the point of religion. Trick the brain into thinking everything is going according to plan so that it gives out the happy time drugs instead of the “you need to wake the fuck up and do something about this” drugs. The religion pushers get their cut, and everyone thinks their happy.
What shits me is Christians (and Jews and Muslims, but it’s mainly Christians who do this) who just handwave away the problem of evil. Like fine, I can accept that some evils might arise as a result of human decisions and free will. Things like wars and genocides are done by people. It’s difficult to swallow even that much with the idea of a god who supposedly knows all, is capable of doing anything, and is “all good”, but fine, maybe free will ultimately supplants all that.
But what I absolutely cannot accept is any claim that tries to square the idea of a god with the triple-omnis with the fact that natural disasters happen. That children die of cancer. You try telling the parents of a child slowly dying of a painful incurable disease that someone could fix it if they wanted, and they completely know about it, but that they won’t. And then try telling them that person is “all good”. See how they react.
I find religious people who believe in the three omnis after having given it any amount of serious consideration to be absolutely disgusting and immoral people.
Any “evil” suffered in current life will be compensated with reward in afterlife.
The concept tends to fall apart with modern Christianity where everyone just goes to heaven and hell is written out.
That doesn’t work. People with crap lives often can’t meet the standards of goodness that many forms of Christianity need for you to be qualified for heaven
Something about camels and needle eyes.
But definitely don’t bring that up with the american ‘christian’ or you’ll have to hear the litany of excuse attempts.
The concept tends to fall apart with modern Christianity where everyone just goes to heaven and hell is written out.
Huh? From what I can tell Christians are more fixated on hell than ever now. Listen to them talk about gay/trans people, Palestinians, women who get abortions, or literally anyone who isn’t Christian, and it’s clear that they’re really excited about the idea that their god will torture those people for all eternity while they get to watch from heaven. You’ll even get catholics and protestants both thinking they’re the only ones going to heaven and the “wrong” kind of Christian goes to hell because of technicalities like whether you go to confession or not or whether praying to Mary is idolatry. Some outright say that it’s okay to kill gay/trans people, Palestinians, etc, because they’re damned anyway and god doesn’t give a shit about them.
Most we observe in the media either the kumbaya Christians, where Jesus died for everyones sins and everyone goes to heaven. Or the MAGA Christians who believe treating the poor like dirt is owning the libs.
The question about evil existing is rather easy to answer but all the Christian internal discourse would be more confusing. I don’t have much experience with it but
technicalities like whether you go to confession or not or whether praying to Mary is idolatry.
Wouldn’t that directly violate the first commandment?
Asking someone already in the kingdom is no different than asking someone without the kingdom to intercede on our behalf. Also God has 72 names in our tradition, millions in others.
Also God has 72 names in our tradition, millions in others.
Mary is not God or part of the trinity right? Jesus ascending into heaven would not mean Mary is in heaven. Which would mean Mary remains dead until judgement day and is not yet in heaven. Unless I am not familiar with something.
You’re not familiar with a lot because churches and politicians occulted this information. It’s in the whole Bible (you can find the Ethiopian Bible in English online but there are mistranslations so you have to go to the Jewish and hermetic kabbalah and other sources to find them. Also I already referred to Psalm 82, wrt God.
I did a quick google search and apparently the pope added it in 1950 but it is not canon
If the kingdom of heaven is within us, where is the kingdom of hell? The tree of life, whether yggdrassil, abramic, or hermetic offers great insight, here.
But why is that all good? Why couldn’t he have earth be good?
It is good. Challenges are meant to evolve us to our best possible selves.
Children dying of cancer is not “good”, and frankly the fact that you seem to think it is is fucking disgusting.
Then seek solutions. Everyone has something of value to offer.
If there is no evil how can there be good?
If the purpose of life is to be a test, how can you test without challenges (evil)?
The crux of the problem is once again the modernized version of Christianity. Where hell has been written out and Adolf Hitler goes to heaven because “Jesus died for his sins”.
The hero’s journey is exactly the point!
If there is no evil how can there be good?
Easy. You take the world as it is right now…and then remove the evil things. Evil is a metaphysical concept. We often use analogies of light and dark, but it doesn’t literally work that way.
Then how does the concept of life as a test work when humans can do no evil?
First, you’ll note that I started this conversation by conceding free will and concentrating my discussion of evil on evils that are not performed by humans, but by the planet itself, or by fundamental biology.
But as for “the concept of life as a test”…why is something supposedly omniscient performing a test? It should already know the result of said test, thus making the test itself irrelevant. That’s what omniscience is.
Evil existing is necessary for a test in good and evil. Whether done by humans or natural causes.
Angels were created as perfect servants who obey all commands without free will. Humans were created as the opposite. Those who have free will to perform both good and evil.
It should already know the result of said test, thus making the test itself irrelevant. That’s what omniscience is.
An all-powerful entity is not bound by paradoxes. If that was the case it would end at the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox which is even more extreme than the free-will paradox for which some explanations can be thought of.
You want stepford wives. I don’t and you don’t get to choose that for me.
It’s not about “want” at all. It’s about figuring out what’s true. And what’s true is that the Abrahamic god, as understood by modern Jews, Christians, and Muslims, is very clearly impossible, unless you choose to define “good” as including children dying of cancer.
Life isn’t binary.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you here, but thought I’d provide a counter argument.
A group of children are dying of a horrible, deadly disease that can only be cured with the bark from a specific tree. So we go into the forest and chop this tree down to save the children from an excruciating disease.
A squirrel had built its entire home in that tree. That tree was everything to the squirrel. Now the squirrel has nothing and will suffer because we chopped down its home.
How do we explain this to the squirrel? Well, we can’t. No matter how hard we try, we can’t explain why we needed to destroy its home. The squirrel is physically incapable of understanding.
Playing devils advocate here, perhaps the reason for the need for human suffering is so beyond our understanding and comprehension that we are just physically incapable of understanding. Maybe we’re just squirrels, and human suffering needs to happen for some greater purpose unbeknownst to us.
That argument lands you in the “we can’t know which religion is true” category, because if we can’t know the plans of god, we also can’t know which god is real.
So, while it absolves the believer from having to answer the problem of evil, it simultaneously robs them of any certainty about the truth of their religion.
But only if they think about it.
At their core they use symbolism to teach the same things. You get to choose. Misunderstanding lessons is allowed. It’s Montessori style school.
They’re all true and all not true. Each culture given the appropriate teachers at the appropriate time for the appropriate lessons. Five is five, until it’s 5.2.
That is an interesting thought experiment in general but I don’t think it really squares with Christian theology and the central role humanity has in it.
We’re talking about the Abrahamic trio, so God is supposed to be all powerful. That means there is nothing beyond his power. There is no “can only” or “can’t” or “incapable” for him. He can have His cure and save the tree too, He doesn’t have to choose. Your example only works if God is limited in some capacity, and has to make trade offs that we can’t understand.
A parent can easily do their children’s homework. How does that benefit the kids? A passing mark doesn’t mean the kid understands and the lessons don’t get easier.
The “homework” you’re talking about is war, starvation, disease, rape, slavery, and death.
A parent is supposed to help their children, not torture them to death for a “lesson”.
We did that. It’s our mess to clean up.
Oh, but I never voted for that politician! Did we do anything besides vote and clicktivism?
Disease? Starvation? Disaster? Let us not pretend like God didn’t create human evil either. For what? For fun? “To teach us a lesson”?
The all powerful, all knowing God never seems to do anything either in case you haven’t noticed.
So we’re given the means to solve these tests. When we learn to work together to solve them, rather than “punishing” each other, we get closer to solving them. Disasters happen, whether natural or man-made. We either work together or we don’t. Test time.
the Abrahamic trio, so God is supposed to be all powerful.
The funny thing is, the ancient Israelites almost certainly didn’t believe this. It was a more recent invention that’s obviously not supported by the old testament or the talmud.
IF there was some reason, first of all, God could give us the ability to understand if he wanted to, as he is not supposed to be limited. Second, it would imply someone is getting something from it, God, us, or otherwise, that for some reason, God can’t give in a way that doesn’t involve evil. But again, if he is never limited, that shouldn’t be the case.
Also, if cancer and other diseases are supposed to exist and kill people for some kind of purpose we don’t understand, why do we have the ability to treat, vaccinate and cure those same diseases? If medicine gets to the point of preventing every ailment, then why does that “oh so important” reason for it existing not matter anymore? It would seem if these things NEED to exist, we shouldn’t be able to prevent them from happening under any circumstances.
Why? If we just knew, we’d be stepford wives or ai.
Being created little gods who die like men, our lesson is to solve certain things, at least amelioration of them. But all things die, and are born anew. A mutation that is helpful or harmful today may not have been so yesterday or tomorrow.
I’m upvoting because I thought this was done good engagement with the premise and you don’t deserve to be downvoted for it.
But fundamentally, you’ve missed a pretty big step. What if god just…didn’t create a situation where children get diseases that can only be cured with one rare tree?
Or, more importantly, what about diseases that cannot be cured? What about natural disasters? Yes, some types of natural disasters have gotten more common and worse as a result of human action, but they still happened before climate change, and if anything were more disruptive to people before we had modern building practices.
We’re talking about a god that is literally capable of anything. It could just wave its hand and delete all disease from existence. It chooses not to.
Is a hero a hero without a villain?
I’d wager you’ve been a hero to some people’s telling and not so much, to others’.
Every relationship is karmic, that is we learn.
Yep years ago I was in a bible study, well on my way to being an agnostic already. They were going over a difficult passage and the conclusion was ‘god works in mysterious ways’. Not that I hadn’t heard that nonsense before but for some reason hearing it in that scenario was the last straw and I never went back.
Yeah, the average person gets a pass on this sort of thing because I generally assume they haven’t thought much about it. But it’s particularly galling when biblical scholars do it.
I saw one biblical scholar whose schtick was debunking things evangelicals believe about the bible. He would happily admit it’s written by a collection of authors over a long period of time, who were doing so not literally but in rhetorical styles popular in their day. Things like that.
Once, I saw him describe how the early Israelites did not believe in the three omnis. They may not have even believed in a monotheistic god, but it was certainly not omniscient and omnibenevolent. Then he went on to say that despite that—despite the fact that the authors of the religious text and the society that invented this god not believing in three omnis—he nevertheless did believe god was omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. Wtf?
There’s actually a specific christian worldview called Calvinism where the view is that god wanted Adam and Eve to eat the apple and God was the snake on the tree which means god wanted all the wars on earth if you believe that view.
Pish. Calvinism teaches that God was the serpent? You’re a bit off base there.
Waiting for reference. Other than a Chick tract.
Ok, I misrembered the details so my bad on that one. What it actually teaches was that god created the serpent, put the serpent in the garden, knew Adam and eve wouldn’t resist the serpent so god still wanted all the wars and misery in this world.
“Wanted” is a funny word. The idea that there’s something difficult to understand about a supreme being who is so far above us that he created not only us but the entire universe according to what’s revealed about him? That shouldn’t seem a strange idea.
Imagine if we met an advanced alien who had technology far beyond ours. We might not be able to understand a lot of the way they thought, spoke, or acted.
The thing is, it actually says that in the Bible.
Isaiah 55:8-9 NLT “My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Yet we keep wanting to subject Him not only to our reasoning, but to our language.
It’s not that diffcuilt to understand so I don’t know why you assumed I would find it diffcuilt to understand. I’m not that religious myself, I’m more agnostic but I’m happy to have respectful conversations about different viewpoints than mine.
There are a few verses which state god planned everything that would happen in this world. Romans 8:29-30 “For those God foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.”
Ephesians 1:5 and 11 “He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will… In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.”
So it’s not difficult to understand with these verses that in the lense of calvinism, god planned everything that would happen in this world and knew exactly what would happen.
Yes, we agree completely. I just meant the word “wanted” is pejorative. You can intend something without necessarily wanting it.
When he was little my son broke the growth plate off of his arm at the wrist. It was essential that it be pushed back into place. The doctor needed me to hold him still, to hold his arm still as he pushed that bone back on top where it belonged.
My son had a lot of pain. I didn’t want to hold him still while he endured that pain. But I intended to. I did it.
And all those events were planned under the lense of calvinism which you had no control of planning it yourself so predestination and no free will.
Well, Christianity presents us with many things with seemingly contradictory qualities that are nonetheless to be held in tension, and not resolved.
For instance, Jesus Himself is fully man, and fully God. Not half and half. No division, no partiality. Completely 100% a man. And completely 100% God.
Same with the Bible. Who wrote it? Humans, of course. Every word. AND…
2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
There are earthly parallels as well. Light is both a wave and a particle (we’re still sorting that out). Schrödinger’s cat. There are lots of examples.
There’s nothing unusual about a situation where God is fully in control of everything and humans have free will. It’s just hard to wrap your head around.
The answer isn’t to say, “God can’t (or won’t) do anything about that.” That denies God’s power and goodness.
The answer is also not to say, “Since I’m God’s puppet I have no will or blame.” That denies our responsibility and sin.
The Bible is quite clear that both are true. God is powerful, good, and in control. And humans are capable, sinful, and responsible for their actions.
My thoughts are nothing like your thoughts,” says the Lord. “And my ways are far beyond anything you could imagine. For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.
Yet if adam and eve had just eaten the fruit of immortality, apparently they would have been exactly like god. That’s also in the bible. It’s almost as if there are contradictory parts and it’s full of bunk…
Thought terminating cliche
No matter how well you point out the paradox (if God knows everything that will happen, free will doesn’t exist, because everything is predetermined, just like a fully written book), a significant portion of christians will simply ignore and keep circling between “but God gave us free will” and “God knows everything”
I’m also sick of hearing people say, “God never gives you more than you can handle.”
I know people who have been driven batshit insane by what God has given them.
