I have to get certifications as part of my job and because all of my coworkers and I keep failing these really hard tests, we aren’t allow to study during downtime on the clock. We were told to study on our own time.
Getting certs is part of what is required for me to get bigger raises and get promoted and all that jazz. I don’t want to use my personal time for this. None of the people who are in this predicament do.
I have a meeting in a few days to discuss goals and I need to figure out how to tell my boss that using my own time for work shit is unacceptable.
I really like this job other than this one aspect of it and I don’t want to make anyone mad, but I need to express my boundaries and all that
At my last job I was asked to get a certain cert as one of my yearly goals. When I asked for time to study, I was told to do it on my own time. I said “If you want me to do this on my own time, clearly it is optional and I’m not doing it.” and then I didn’t.
In my case there was no raise to be had from doing it though, so it was easier to refuse. Good luck!
Based on what you said, these are not required for you to do your job, only for you to improve your position. It is not unreasonable for you to use personal time for self-improvement. It’s also not unreasonable for you to use company downtime for self-improvement.
Not just downtime. There should be room for training.
Employers aren’t obligated to invest in you, but then you know how much you should invest in them.
1000% this. Spending even an entire work-day to go attend training is part of being in the work force. I’d be spending my personal time dusting off my resume.
You know you’re allowed to print off a new copy
I don’t recommend that, printers are expensive now.
But a printer requires money, which requires a job, which requires a resume, which requires a printer, which requires money, which requires a job, which requires a resume…
“Using my own time for work stuff is unacceptable to me, and I am prepared to quit this job and get a different one that doesn’t ask me to work off the clock if you press this matter.”
Don’t try to reason them into accepting your way of thinking, just state your position and what you’re willing to do to pursue it
Incidentally, if “I am prepared to quit this job” does not currently apply to you, you should not be having this conversation.
“Using my own time for work stuff is unacceptable to me. It was not enumerated in the job listing when I was hired that off-clock unpaid work was required to keep this job and
I am prepared to quit this job and get a different one that doesn’t ask me to work off the clock if you press this matterif the company terminates me for refusing to work unpaid off the clock I’d be happy to raise that with the Department of Labor for a case of wage theft.”FTFY
Now, understand in many jobs maintaining a level of knowledge is necessary, and skills age-out meaning they are no longer applicable to industry. If you don’t have these new certs, you may not be able to get hired somewhere else because they require the current industry knowledge. You’ll have to decide which battles you want to fight, and what you will do if the worst outcome affects you and you’re out of work. Would you be forced to study and pass those certs anyway just to be eligible in your industry? If so, you can work toward compromise with your current employer as a shorter and less painful path.
To this end, you can challenge them on not letting you study on the clock during downtime. If these certs are as critical as they claim, then why are downtime hours not usable for cert study?
There’s the magical term! God I fucking hate wage theft. OP, the company is trying to steal from you. Your time is money and if they’re not paying you for work then they’re, by definition, stealing from you.
I’ve had conversations like this before, and usually you only have to hint that it’s wage theft for dumbfuck managers to realize and back down, especially if you’re assertive but polite with them. If you’re not getting anywhere with the manager, then you should go to HR. HR’s job is to protect the company and the obviously correct move for an HR person is to keep the DoL out of the situation. If you go to HR and then get fired, then that may be even better evidence against the shitheads.
If you do go to HR, try to get your manager to admit to wage theft in a way that gives you evidence. If you can’t get the manager to admit to wage theft on paper or electronically (which you should immediately back up), you’re going to the DoL, and you live somewhere with one-party consent, then surreptitiously record your manager saying it. It may be against company policy to make this recording (and should be your last resort, don’t go to HR with audio recordings!), but it’s legal as long as your jurisdiction has one-party consent laws on the books.
Don’t let them steal from you, OP. The other magic words that have already been mentioned in this thread are “fuck you, pay me.”
I get that you guys are spelling things out for OP so they have an understanding of what their argument’s foundation is, but going into the conversation with language like “it was not enumerated” and vague threats of reporting them to the authorities is probably not the best approach if OP actually wants to keep the job (which it sounds like they do).
My answer wasn’t so much directed at OP but @gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world that had text threatening to quit. If OPs company wants them gone, threatening to quit plays right into their hands. Further, if you ever threaten and not follow through, you’ve lost any leverage in negotiating further changes.
with language like “it was not enumerated” and vague threats of reporting them to the authorities
To reiterate, I wasn’t suggesting using that exact language I put in quotes but was attempting to show OP what was effectively being asked of them by their employer, and how it wasn’t fair to what they agreed, and that there was legal recourse they had if it evolved to that. If you read the rest of my post it was laying out that taking extreme action like threatening to quit, failing to get the certs, or some such would likely result in them losing their job anyway and a better approach is to work with their employer to get some time on the clock for cert study, but also recognize that an absolutist approach can result in the worst situation for OP and likely require they get the certs anyway on their own time because the certs would be required by a new employer.
Nothing with OPs situation will be resolved in a single conversation with any one party at their employer. It will be a series of conversations with each laying out their requirements and hopefully arriving at a compromise where OP still works there, and OP’s employer is satisfied with the effort toward certs.
Those promotion and raise promises are often not kept, so get them laid out in writing. If getting certified is part of your job then you should get paid for it in time and money.
I wish I had a better idea of industry norms. The company I originally worked at was willing to pay for udemy classes and similar and was known to put a couple of us up in important conferences where we could reap a lot of knowledge (and network.) Then we got bought and the new company doesn’t pay for shit. Has an education “stipend” to reimburse you for things you pay out of pocket towards education/training, but it has a yearly cap.
I can’t tell if I was privileged before the acquisition or just kind of fucked over afterwards.
I’ve had both. It’s a good indicator of what the company really thinks of its employees.
Fuck you, pay me
using my own time for work shit is unacceptable.
Drop the word “shit” and you got it.
I’d use the word “shit,” but I’ve already established a certain level of communication with my manager and colleagues.
Then you probably wouldn’t have to ask on Lemmy how to express your objections. But OP did; so no “shit”.
After repeated failures to pass a test, I do not think it is unreasonable for the business to stop paying for your attempts at a certification. Either directly via training sessions and testing fees, or indirectly via your working hours.
If the certs were not required, you have a point. If they are required to the point where OP has to have a discussion about not doing them with his boss, then the buisness needs to keep paying, drop the requirement or find new employees.
Required for promotion. OP has been demonstrating quite clearly that he isn’t ready for that.
If you only have to have a cert to be promoted, then OP can simply not do it and not be promoted. No conversation with his boss would be necessary.
It sounds more like the org need X amount of people qualified to have “gold” status with a vendor, so they pressure you to get it and make any promotion contingent on you having/gaining this cert.
Had the same conversation with my boss, and I specifically asked him “Is this certificaton job related or is it just so someone can check a box on a spreadsheet somewhere? If it’s job related, I’m absolutely down for it, what does the new role entitle and what’s the increase in pay for it?”
Response? Silence.
What was the certification?
That was the weird part, it wasn’t any one specific certification, it was any 2nd certification in addition to the job related cert I already had.
Well idk, my certs have multiple levels/advancements that you can specialize in, so…
If a stock broker or insurance actuary had this sort of opinion they would be making 50k not 300k. When else would they study for their exams and certs?
If I as a PhD candidate didn’t work on my own time I will never get my PhD.
This seems like a /antiwork terminally online position to have. I agree in only giving bosses what we are required but this is for you to succeed.
I know all of one insurance actuary, and she has a study budget both in euros and hours.
If you need the cert to do your job they should compensate you (i.e. allow you to use company time). If it’s not required then I would say I’m going to accept the risks of not becoming certified as the time investment is not feasible for me. Many people provide value staying in the same role for years and advancement, if it’s a net negative to someone’s overall well-being, should be optional at the employees discretion.
“My other commitments don’t leave time for studying enough to pass this certification test.”
When they ask what the other commitments are:
“It’s personal, and I’m not comfortable talking about it.”
because all of my coworkers and I keep failing these really hard tests, we aren’t allow to study during downtime on the clock.
Well there’s your answer. It sounds like they are tired of making losing investments.
Their employer hasn’t made any investment if the employees have only been studying during downtime.
Send them an invoice for “outside consultation and development” at roughly triple your current wage
If getting the cert is part of your goals or part of your work, then you need to tell your boss you are willing to put in the work during business hours. Anything work related outside of business hours requires overtime pay.
If these certs are not part of your goals/work, then I would suggest talking with your boss about incorporating them in.
Have you tried telling them to Fuck oof?
