Unfortunately, I drive a ghetto minivan which causes the police to profile me and has caused people in small towns to call the police on me if I am in a public park or in their neighborhood. I even had someone call the police on me at campground that I had pre-paid for and the police were not sympathetic at all to my right to just exist.
I am aware of stop and identify laws and know that a cop needs reasonable suspicion to demand to see your ID. However, can’t the cop just make up some lies about reasonable suspicion?
If a cop approaches me can I immediately start with: “Officer, do you have reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred, is in the process of occurring, or is about to occur?” It seems like that will immediately escalate things even if technically the law is on my side.
I just want a damn right to exist law and to not be a target for an overactive imagination by the police which treats me like a criminal until they can check me for warrants.
Honestly, I want to tell them to fuck off right away but I also don’t have money for a lawyer.
‘That’s not exactly how the Founders framed the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, but it is what Craig and Marc Wasserman want you to do.’
"Why did you pull me over? I’m not discussing my day. Am I being detained or am I free to go? If detained, you say, “I invoke the Fifth [Amendment],’ and then you shut the fuck up.”
Thanks for that article. I do agree with it. But this might be similar to “there’s plenty of dead pedestrians who thought they had the right of way”. I already know that technically I can refuse to show my ID without reasonable suspicion but if the cop arrests me illegally I still have to go to court to assert my legal rights and I can’t afford the money or the time.
If you’re in a vehicle, they do have the right to check if you’re the registered owner, are licensed and insured, tags up to date, etc.
Best advice:
Longer, but the most important 45 minutes you can spend today:
tl;dw - The Miranda warning tells you everything you need to know: “Anything you say can and will be used AGAINST YOU.” Not for you, AGAINST YOU.
Nothing you say to the cops will be used to help you, so do not talk to them.
If I see them approaching from far away and hop out of the vehicle am I then a pedestrian and no longer count as being in my vehicle?
The only thing that really matters is if you are driving or not. So if the vehicle is turned off and the keys are out of the ignition, you are not a driver. Therefore they cannot issue any moving violations or any similar driving related citations. Unless you are illegally parked, that’s another issue.
If they are already approaching you, and you jump out of the car, that would look automatically suspicious to the suspicion-filled pig brain. So if you want to get out just do that before they approach.
Correct. This is no different than if my friend gives me a ride and runs into a store to buy something while I stay in the car. It’s not a traffic stop so police can’t just demand that I give them papers and prove the car is legally allowed to be on the road because we’re not on the road.
Nah, if you are in control of the vehicle. Meaning if you have the keys and the ability to turn it on and drive. Sleeping drunk in a vehicle can get you a DUI even if the car is off and you’re parked.
Seems to me you can be charged with DUI if you’re drunk and in a car regardless of whether the keys are in it or not?
I don’t think so
It depends on the location and local laws, but even then cops can charge you with whatever they want. Whether those charges hold up in court is another story.
Are you living out of said van? That complicates things quite a bit. If you really are just chillin’ just show them your ID and get on with it. None of these dudes are trained and are already aggressive towards you.
Are you living out of said van?
Yes, I am.
Don’t show them your ID then. If I were you I wouldn’t chill anywhere longer than thirty minutes during the day. Misery loves company so that shit is illegal in a lot of places. I dont know of any of them but I vaguely remember forums about surviving like this on reddit.
Yep, I agree with you. I do move around a lot. But I also paid for a spot at a campground where you’re supposed to be able to just chill and I still got harassed.
Check the rules for the campground next time you pay for a spot. Sometimes they sneak shit in there where you actually can’t be camping out of your car. I haven’t seen that where I live in the southwest. But I have seen people post about it in northern states.
Yeah, you’re right about that. I have seen those rules about car camping. Not sure what they were at the campground I was at but I got there around 1:30PM and was only there an hour before the deputy sheriff showed up. Even if that campground had a rule like that it was only 2:30 in the afternoon and surely there wouldn’t have been a “you must set up your tent within x minutes of arriving” rule. Cops suck! And the people who call cops because their overactive imagination gets the best of them suck too!
get a decoy tent. /s
maybe cleaning it will help. the difference between someone’s “i’m gonna haul shit” van and a drug dealer’s van is often just the amount of dirt and the straightness of the panels.
What color are you? Pigs basically use
as training material, so the darker shade you are the more careful you gotta be with slow hand movements and clear communication.The answer is “am I being detained or am I free to go?” The answer to every question after is “lawyer” or shut the fuck up. Every day is Shut The Fuck Up Friday.
STFU Friday is gospel. Especially the one with Michael Rappaport.
I’d just show them my ID.
Hear hear, privilege speaking here…
Well, go buy a shitty minivan and drive it through some small towns and then after you get harassed you might get fed up a little. Maybe I was too ambiguous with the post title…I should have posted “what should I do” rather than “what do you do”
i also live in a shitty minivan… getting it over with as quickly and politely as possible is actually your best bet.
one lovely cop expression is “you only need one nail to hang your hat on”, meaning: they can pretty much arrest you at any time because there’s always some crime or suspicion of a crime they can get you for…
or another way to frame it is: at the end of the day, cops with guns will do what they want… so don’t make them want to do anything…
or, more directly, in my decades of vagabond experience… do not try to argue, debate or shame the cops, unless you really want a couple of tickets and several court dates to argue your position…
“i smell burnt marijuana”, for example, is a cop’s goto for searching your van… ive seen them say it when there was definitely no weed around… but that’s not going to help you, until after a bunch of court and bullshit…
…
basically there’s no way to make all cops respect your rights without some tedious court shit… you may be legally correct, but that doesn’t help until much later…
…
pragmatically, you can try to blend in more… paint rusy spots, etc and make your van look more normy… keep your van clean and free of any character… any self expression…
clear dashboard, clean interior… make it look like you might not be camping in there.
…
another touch i like is leave some folders from the local city college on your dashboard.
there’s a huge difference in sympathy between a broke student living in their van, trying to pull up bootstraps or whatever, and what they imagine is some junky/psycho bum living in their van getting free rent.it’s a dumb world but just seeming friendly and sympathetic helps… they don’t have the framework to imagine what you’re going through…
housey-psychology is all guesswork, but it seems like college, musician/artist, and having a dog helps…
definitely seeming as clean and organized as possible helps… any evidence of beer and you’re automatically a scumbag…
reddit sucks, obviously, but the vagabond and vanliving subs have good resources…
All of that is good advice. I do get haircuts and stay clean shaven most of the time. So, I don’t look homeless but my van does.
It seems like every day there’s a new article about people getting priced out of apartments and unable to afford homes. So, it’s just a matter of time before there’s some huge “Grapes of Wrath” style caravans of people living in cars. I wonder if it will get to the point where the cops look the other way simply because there’s too many people living in cars.
Dude in my area apartments are 3/4 of my take home pay.
I can only live because I live in coop housing that is 1/4th my pay, and I was only invited here because my buddy moved away and the neighbors already like me.
I don’t see how asking for an ID is harassment. Like, are they asking you every day even though they know you by now?
different towns…also the incident at the campground happened and there were other people camping. The cop didn’t go check in on any of them. His specific “reasonable suspicion” was that in the past at that campground they have had trouble with “riff-raff”. Great! So be it, then why not go ID check all the other campers then? I was being profiled and targeted because of the vehicle I was driving. If you don’t understand then that’s because this hasn’t happened to you 10 times or more. It gets tiring.
Were the other campers actually camping and you were just a minivan parked at a campsite?
Because not many campers just sit inside a minivan the whole time.
But meth heads do, because they can’t smoke meth out in the open.
Stop being angry people notice you, and start trying to blend in. If you’re paying for the site, you might as well use it.
I have a ghetto van. It does not blend in. The campground was one incident. There are many more which have happened in parking lots where other people are also sitting in their cars. Since the invention of smart phones a lot of people sit in their cars for various reasons and look at their phones or use laptops. It’s not illegal nor suspicious to sit in your car. - Anytime you vent online people look for an angle to blame you. I just want to exist without being harassed like everyone else.
What is a “ghetto van”?
It seems reading through the comments you always point that out as the reason you’re getting singled out.
Maybe you should improve the Van such that it’s no longer a “ghetto van” and that would help to stop said profiling.
Have you seen early 2000s Dodge Caravan models? Imagine one of those with dents and a lot of rust. All of life is about money - sure the solution is go buy a $100,000 RV but if I could do that I would have already done that.
So…
You did go to a campsite where families were in tents and you just sat inside your sketchy minivan and don’t understand why the cops were called?
It might be just one example, but it was your pick. You saw nothing wrong with you behavior or understood why it was suspicious…
So there’s a good chance lots of the time you don’t see a reason, there’s a very good reason it’s happening.
Go lurk on r/vandwelling on Reddit, there’s a shit ton of old posts going over common sense stuff that you would greatly benefit from. And I sincerely mean that as good advice, by your own admission you want help.
But there’s not a lot of people on Lemmy, and this is pretty important.
So go reathe posts of people who live this life and have been doing it for years.
I am upset about the profiling. Being poor does not automatically make you a criminal. Like when they profile people of color or Middle Easterns at airports. There’s plenty of rich dudes driving $100,000 cars who are committing crimes in society. I know there’s nothing I can do…just venting. Also, I had out of state license plates. As long as the locals were using their imaginations they could have just imagined that I was driving cross country (which was actually the case). So, because I am poor and have an ugly van I have no rights to use a campground that I paid for, right?
Can you grab a crap tent you can throw up, just to look the part? Something that’s quick to put up just to look the part. Or heck just leave camping gear outside conspicuously
I have thought about that. It is a good idea. I believe in psychology they call that “signaling”. Might have to start doing that. But I don’t go to campgrounds a lot. I still get harassed if I am eating fast food in a public park or just sitting somewhere on my laptop.
Lol ok if different cops came to your front door multiple times a week, asking for ID, you don’t think you would feel harrassed.
That’s privilege buddy.
Your frontdoor usually doesn’t move from town to town, entering different jurisdictions … but ok buddy.
Alright, get a visit from the cops every time you move house or stay at a hotel.
Nard.
It’s almost like cars and houses are different.
I understand OPs situation. Your non-sense analogy isn’t adding anything.
It’s really helpful to say what country you are in.
if someone doesn’t tell you what country they’re in, it’s the U.S.
and maybe germany, made that mistake too many times.
Lol was it not immediately obvious with this description of police? The us has the worst police issue like ever. Cops in other corrupt authoritarian countries at least don’t pretend they aren’t corrupt and authoritarian
It’s actually obvious as soon as a person doesn’t say where they are from, because there’s typically only one nationality that assumes you know where they are from.
Couldn’t agree more lol. It’s like that meme from an anime where a very American looking dude is like the whole world belongs to America !
U.S.A.
I have no specific advice but check out the book “Talking to strangers” by Malcolm Gladwel, it might be insightful.
I have heard of that book. I’ll check it out. Thanks!
Youre welcome bud.
I have lived in my van for a few periods too, on and off up to a year at a stretch. It can be really mentally draining. I hope you find some respite and peace & quiet soon.
“What seems to be the problem officer?” Is how you should start every conversation with the police. Be polite, respectful, and firm in your rights. And most importantly don’t say more than the answer to legal questions.
until you feel like they are trying to lead you into giving them reasonable suspicion, at which point you begin the “am i free to go?” routine.
To me that sounds like it’s opening the door by assuming there’s a problem. I think I’d lead with “good morning sir” and let them start talking.
I disagree solely because you want to be the one asking why the cop is there and the cop is going to try to beat you to that punch. If they ask why you think there’s a problem “a police officer is getting my attention” is a valid response.
Anyway if anyone wonders why cops are hated, it’s the fact that ordinary law abiding citizens need to learn the special language that makes cops not get aggressive and accuse you of crimes.
Pigs is pigs, buddy.
You gotta play along unless you wanna start shit. And pigs being pigs means you can’t really start telling them what they’re doing is inappropriate or unnecessary, that puts em in fight or flight mode and pigs don’t fly.
I’d guess your best bet would be that they get used to you and become nonchalant with their check-ins. Just be stupid friendly about the whole thing and maybe try to remember a few of their names. If it’s a small town, can’t be too many of em. Eventually maybe you can shift it from “Good afternoon, Officer, what seems to be the problem?” to “Ah hey Steve, Mrs. Granger worried about me again? Aint that sweet, how’s the kids?”
Edit: I see elsewhere in the thread you mentioned you’re living in the van. That makes things harder. Even if you’re complying with the law, pigs hate that shit. When I was living in a car, I had a sob story ready for any cop that interrogated me and if I got caught and had to use it, I wasn’t sleeping in that county again for another month. The campground bit is especially fucking frustrating, you PAID to be there, that’s all on the up and up. They’re monsters, buddy, not sure how to help, but I find being some caricature outta some 50’s PSA film to em pads their egos and smooths interactions in general. Tho the shoddy van won’t help.
that puts em in fight or flight mode and pigs don’t fly.
😂 Love that line!
The cop mentality is all about feeling superior, so the last thing you want is to challenge him. Probably gets angry real quick and maybe even violent.
You have to treat them as if they are criminals. Don’t upset them, stay quiet, try to act submissive.
How you want the world to treat you or the car only exists in your head. In reality, people gets treated after how they are perceived by others.
Wow, “treat cops as if they are criminals”
That’s a piece of advice I’ll share around
You shut the fuck up is what you do and film them if possible. Are you under arrest? No. Then police may not detain you without cause. See ya!
All inexperienced young people who get into issues with cops or landlords seem to want to be as deferential as possible, thinking that will mitigate any trouble that’s coming their way. But in essence, these people always ask for ways to make the cops/landlord’s job easier. Don’t tell them what words they need to say to you, don’t ask for specific paperwork. It’s their job to remove your personal freedoms and liberties, why would you make it easier for them to do that?
When cops don’t know the laws they are enforcing and thus telling your rights is not only seen as demeaning since it’s their job to know, but makes them actively hostile and more likely to violate those rights out of embarrassment, it’s a no win scenario. Better to just go along with their security theater and say as little as possible outside of answering direct questions.
You only have rights if you survive the encounter first.
A few years ago, I was pulled over after waving at a cop as we locked eyes while still stopped at an intersection. He said it was because my seat belt wasn’t on, even though it was and I was in a lime green shirt so the dark gray belt should have been pretty visible across my chest and he wanted to argue that I put it on as he was pulling me over. To which I pointed out my dashcam system, said my belt was on the entire time and I could show him the video right now if he wanted. He just got pissed and gave me a ticket anyway. “Ok, but I have proof that you’re wrong so this is just a huge waste of everyone’s time,” I said as he walked away.
Fucker didn’t even show up to court so it was thrown out. Really was just wasting everyone’s time. Mine. His. And the courthouse’s.
Should have been a black mark on his record.
During the pan, I ran out of stuff to watch. I ended up watching police-cams and dash-cams of car chases. Ironic, given that I loathe the police. But it’s way better than fake reality TV cause it’s authentic.
I believe in our rights not to be abused by police. I believe even more that asserting our rights can make us a target for bullies. I’d say clam up and offer nothing beyond an ID. Tell them you don’t want to speak without representation. You may have to invoke your right to stand mute for it to be relevant in court (if it comes to that) to argue that that was your intent. I think that’s the best way to say nothing without appearing to challenge their power.
I am not an expert or lawyer or anything. I just know that I’ve seen a LOT of videos of cops getting belligerent when they feel challenged and they are fucking violent. There may be some who aren’t, but I wouldn’t gamble on it at all. My plan, if confronted, is to obey every physical order and never to argue.
I don’t have reason to think I’ll ever have a confrontation with a cop (I’m not a “kid” anymore) beyond maybe a speeding ticket, but if it happened, I’d be super compliant and assert my rights after the fact.
Not sure if it’d help, but you could stick a buuunch of camping, hiking, outdoors, etc. stickers on your van. Try to turn its image from a “ghetto” van to a “hippy / outdoor enthusiast” van. I imagine you can order large sticker packs online for very cheap.
Best idea in the thread. You see old subies covered in REI and mountain climbing and hiking and backpacking stickers everywhere
Yeah, that is a good idea. It would probably work best on a VW van like the kind surfers use. I suppose with enough stickers strategically placed it could look like you were into rock climbing, or surfing, or something involving the outdoors.
However, you don’t want to live in a VW surfer van. They’re cold as hell at night, zero insulation. Also they’re decades behind safety standards, in a collision with anything, they crumple like a soda can.
They look iconic, but I don’t recommend it in practice.
Yeah, rock climbing sounds even better than hippies for this purpose.
I just had a mental image of some overweight dude with tons of rock climbing stickers on their van. (Not implying anything OP, but just a funny picture I imagined)
After seeing the article about the 300lb pentathlete (who, yes, has to deal with social pressures due to his unusual build) I wouldn’t even blink.
But law enforcement in the US are eager to invoke stereotypes if it will get them closer to securing an arrest / conviction.
Ideally, you do what helps become invisible to police officers.
Guess you have to look the part to sell this one properly
Just a heads-up, vans with climbing stickers can attract break-ins because they tell people “there’s a bunch of expensive gear in here that would be easy to fence”. Happens all the time in vegas. Hope you stay safe out there!
Maybe a bunch of penguin stickers and one that says, “Ask me about Linux!”
Might hurt on date night, though.
“There’s a bunch of computers in there! But we don’t know how to use them.”
This is an awesome idea. Here are a couple (here’s one, here’s another, and for kicks and giggles a third).
Say “hi”.
Damn being white guy is the best shit ever.
I think you might enjoy this song:
I’m sorry officer. I didn’t know I couldn’t do that.
That was such a a good bit. I remember when I saw it thinking about the time I got turned around at a major transit center and drove in the restricted area. Cops gave me a look, I rolled down my window and just said I was sorry and was going to leave.
