this contradiction always confused me. either way the official company is “losing a sale” and not getting the money, right?

  • ReallyActuallyFrankenstein@lemmynsfw.com
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    9 months ago

    Under US law (I see someone else posted about EU law):

    Physical property has a long tradition of legal rights that are a part of ownership. There’s a thing called “right of first sale” that means you have the right to sell an object that you own. This legal framework falls under property law, even if the media on the disc is also governed by copyright law. In this case, property law is inviolate - it trumps copyright law.

    Digital files are instead governed only by copyright law. Further, media companies could not modify copyright law fast enough to keep up with the digital revolution, so more than copyright, digital files are controlled by digital rights management (DRM) code, and contract law (the long TOS when you access a service or site).

    The contract law in the TOS, and code in the DRM, do two things: they force a digital file owner to treat it as a “license,” and give media company the ability to severely restrict use after the purchase.

    So basically, when you buy a disc, you are simply getting a lot more rights to use that content. You literally own the copy.

    This is why media companies are doing everything that they can to switch customers over to streaming services and stop selling physical content. It’s also why it’s a literal lie when you are told you can “buy” digital copies that have DRM, because those companies will simultaneously charge you the higher “purchase” price and deny you ownership rights as if you bought a disc.

  • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
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    9 months ago

    It’s in the name. Copyright. As in, the right to make a copy.

    It’s perfectly legal to sell a digital good as long as you don’t retain it as well.
    It’s illegal to make a copy of a book and then sell that copy.

    From probably the most biased source possible: https://copyrightalliance.org/education/copyright-law-explained/limitations-on-a-copyright-owners-rights/first-sale-exceptions-copyright/

    As they point out, most digital works are licensed, not sold, so there are terms and conditions associated with how you can use them.

    So it’s perfectly consistent, just grossly out of date for it’s intended purpose of “make sure writers can make money selling their books without worrying that getting copies made will be pointless because someone else will undercut them and leave them with 1000 prepaid copies of their book that everyone bought cheaper”.

    We should have a system that preserves that original intent of “creators get compensated”, without it turning into our culture gets owned by some random company for more than a lifetime.

  • AnyOldName3@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    The legalese in the US (which might as well be everywhere as you need to have compatible copyright with the US to have a trade deal with the US, and your country is in trouble if it doesn’t have a trade deal with the US) is basically that:

    • If you buy a physical copy, you’ve become the owner of that one copy of the IP contained within. As the owner of that copy, you can do stuff with it like read it, display it, destroy it, or sell it on to someone else thanks to the First Sale Doctrine (but you can’t do other things like copying it, unless it’s a DVD as there’s a specific exemption for the copy your DVD has to make to RAM in order to decode the DVD). There’s nothing the copyright holder of the original can do to stop you exercising these rights.
    • If you buy a digital ‘copy’, you’ve not bought a copy, you’ve bought a licence to use one of the publisher’s copies that they’ve given you permission to have on your device(s). They’ll also have given you permission to do things like read it if it’s an ebook or play it if it’s a video game, but as it’s their copy, not yours, you don’t automatically get rights to do anything they’ve not explicitly permitted you to, and it’s not in their interests to permit you to sell it on unless they think you’ll pay enough more for a resaleable copy that it covers a potential future lost sale.

    I’m sure plenty of publishers would love for the second set of rules to apply to things like books, and from a quick googling, it seems like occasionally academic textbooks have included a licence agreement instead of you actually owning the physical book, but I imagine that most publishers are concerned about bad PR from attempting this with a hit novel and also don’t want to be accused of fraud for having their not-a-book-just-a-licence on the shelf next to regular books and thereby tricking consumers into thinking they were buying a regular book. EA attempted to double-dip over a decade ago with Battlefield 3, which included a copy of the game (with regular First Sale Doctrine rights) and a licence key for the online pass (which wasn’t transferrable) and got bad press because of it. Newer PC games often come as a key in a box with no disk or a disk that only runs a web installer, so you’ve not got a copy of the game to claim you’ve bought and obviously only have a licence, and this seems to have caused less upset. This wouldn’t work with a book, though, as you have to fill in the pages at the printing factory, and can’t magically do it only after the user’s got it home.

    • Adalast@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Just a small point on the first comment (and I wish I could find the article to refer to, but the internet is a giant void that buries things faster than a mudslide). There was a case where a game developer sued, and I believe won, against a homeowner who was selling one of their games at a garage sale because, even though they had the physical media, the EULA explicitly revoked transferral of possession and was, in fact, just a license, not ownership. I remember it vividly because it was the first time I had ever heard of someone claiming that someone did not own a physical object that they purchased in a store. Afterward, I discussed it with some of the used game retailers and found out that there were some games that they were specifically prohibited from accepting as trades for this very reason.

  • Stern@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Because the book and disc guys couldn’t figure out a way to stop you back then.

    Nowadays college books have one time codes for tests, and games will sometimes have codes included for inportant unlocks to force used purchasers to pay up.

    • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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      9 months ago

      I’ve not seen that in games for a while tbh. I think “Project Ten Dollar” died a death and was replaced with a constant barrage of micro-transactions and not so micro-transactions, sprinkled with FOMO dust.

  • stoly@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Both require a license and that license is revocable in both cases. It’s pretty much impossible to enforce the legal use of physical media, so they don’t. Rather, they go after those making copies.

    If you ever want to REALLY own your media, make sure it is physical.

  • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
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    9 months ago

    The theory probably revolves around there not being a transfer of the file as much as a copy paste of it.

    Physical media can be copied but you need blank physical media to copy it to, in a purely digital eco system both the buyer and seller end up being able to have copies of the sold product, which effectively treats the seller as if they are a vendor of the product being sold.

    Basically in a world built on copyright law, being able to buy and sell digital media the same as physical media looks a lot like someone scalping the original product to cut into the maker’s bottom line. Megacorps eating it is pretty dope but it significantly diminishes an individual developer’s ability to profit off their own work as well, especially when software development already encourages so much copy pasting to make software that should be working into software that is working.

  • Suburbanl3g3nd@lemmings.world
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    9 months ago

    This may be a dumb question, but why can’t crypto something or an NFT be imprinted on my copy of the album/picture/whatever so I could sell it and lose my access? It’s this a function of no standardized marketplace for digital goods and services?

    • Adalast@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Because crypto is a joke and NFTs are vaporware. The concept is honestly laughable. Perfect example for NFTs, my company wanted to advertise that our service could help with the production of NFTs and my boss had put together the ad for it. I advised against it considering the BS and controversy associated with it. It became doubly apparent when I looked at the ad and saw that he had included several of the (in)famous NFTs that had been sold. I point blankly asked him if he had gotten permission to use them. He said no. Then I pointed out that the fact he was able to put them in the ad without asking and paying for the right to to the person who had spent millions on the NFT was exactly my point. NFTs are a scam. Thankfully he saw the light and dropped the whole nonsense.

      As for the blockchain in general, it is unsustainable. It requires enormous amounts of power and computing cycles to maintain which gives it a massive eco-footprint and sucks resources needed by actual industries and individuals to support. If you started attributing it to all digital purchases, including resales, it would expand exponentially. It is fine in concept, and if it could function in a passive state somehow it might see usefulness as a purchase and resale history for digital media, but it can’t. It requires many computers maintaining identical records in active communication with each other.

      • Suburbanl3g3nd@lemmings.world
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        9 months ago

        Very enlightening. Thanks! So there’s still some big hurdle of what would be standardized to make resale of digital goods make sense otherwise it’s impossible to police who does and doesn’t have legit copies or who made a copy of the file, etc.

  • TootSweet@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Usually, when the question is “why is copyright restrictive in these evil and/or dumb ways” the safe bet is that the the answer is “Disney.”

  • JokeDeity@lemm.ee
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    9 months ago

    Pretty sure they tried to prevent the sharing and reselling of CDs at one point.

  • circuitfarmer@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    One thing to keep in mind that may be relevant: copies of non-digital things are different than digital copies.

    Digital (meant here as bit-for-bit) copies are effectively impossible with analog media. If I copy a book (the whole book, its layout, etc., and not just the linguistic content), it will ultimately look like a copy, and each successive copy from that copy will look worse. This is of course true with forms of tape media and a lot of others. But it isn’t true of digital media, where I could share a bit-for-bit copy of data that is absolutely identical to the original.

    If it sounds like an infinite money glitch on the digital side, that’s because it is. The only catch is that people have to own equipment to interpret the bits. Realistically, any form of digital media is just a record of how to set the bits on their own hardware.

    Crucially: if people could resell those perfect digital copies, then there would be no market for the company which created it originally. It all comes down to the fact that companies no longer have to worry about generational differences between copies, and as a result, they’re already using this “infinite money glitch” and just paying for distribution. That market goes away if people can resell digital copies, because they can also just make new copies on their own.

      • Saik0@lemmy.saik0.com
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        9 months ago

        This assumes a conversion on each copy. That’s not how digital copying works. We CAN share the same file indefinitely by copying the data without loss indefinitely. It’s when you transcode/reencode the data that you introduce loss.

    • Samsy@lemmy.ml
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      9 months ago

      it will ultimately look like a copy, and each successive copy from that copy will look worse. This is of course true with forms of tape media and a lot of others. But it isn’t true of digital media, where I could share a bit-for-bit copy of data that is absolutely identical to the original.

      There is one exception: reposted memes, they are losing pixels more and more. /s

        • loobkoob@kbin.social
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          9 months ago

          And also just websites compressing images without the user getting any input. A meme that goes from Facebook to Twitter to Reddit to Twitter to Tumblr to Reddit to here will likely be compressed every time it gets reuploaded. Most social media sites use some form of image compression.

          And it obviously doesn’t help that artefacts from compression are multiplicative.

          • Adalast@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            This is why you use PNG or GIF formats. Lossless compression on the PNG side and a LUT on the GIF side. Nothing to get compressed since it is literally just a grid of numbers and a table with the hex codes.

            I really wish the social media companies and phone manufacturers would switch to PNG. So much better than JPG.

              • Adalast@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                I know, is sad. Would love to see them converting the JPG to PNG. I do see a lot of images coming off here as GIF though, which Facebook doesn’t let me send to people because fuck Facebook.

                • BolexForSoup@kbin.social
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                  9 months ago

                  The storage demands between small compressed JPEG’s and decent quality PNG’s is massive. That’s a lot to ask of people who are self hosting this without any of us paying for it. Especially since 99% of the images loaded up here are one off jokes that are compressed versions from somewhere else already. Pretty clear example of “the juice isn’t worth the squeeze” IMO

      • Jojo@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        It’s technically illegal to make a copy of that data for yourself and then to sell the original (while keeping the copy). That obviously doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen, but…

        • Machinist3359@kbin.social
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          9 months ago

          It’s not that straightforward. Copyright is different in that infringement is only enforced by rightsholders through litigation. That means they hato find you, sue you, and make a convincing argument that your backup is harming their market viability.

          On that last point, some personal backup is unlikely to be found to be infringing. It’s more problematic if it’s something shared or done in a significant scale.

  • randomthin2332@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    There’s a few things about this

    1. Many times you don’t own the digital good, you subscribe to it. No I’m not joking, that’s why services can usually take it away at any time. You normally own “a licence to play it on a single PC” or similar.
    2. This isnt apples to oranges per se. Selling digital goods is fine, it’s copying it. Similar to how photocopying a book and selling it would not be okay.
    3. It’s important to note there is a narrative push by companies too. They spend lots of money putting videos on every DVD saying “downloading is stealing” because if society thinks piracy and stealing is the same, it helps them litigate and make more money.
    4. Your idea of a lost sale is a hard one, from a media company point of view, it’s about making money. So if you can make people believe “a download is a lost sale” or “sharing a digital file is a lot sale” etc, then you can use that to sue individuals, isps, sharing sites, search engines etc and make more and more money while also having more power over your product.
      • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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        9 months ago

        It’s kind of not tested though.

        If you’ve never been given the option to download it and save it and use it from there, how would you “own” it if the streaming service takes it offline?

        If you can’t transfer ownership of something, or have it past the lifespan of the shop you bought it from, do you really own it? I would say not.

        • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          That’s not the ownership though, that’s a subscription to a service. Ownership is something like buying songs on iTunes not listening to them on Apple music.

          • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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            9 months ago

            You can buy individual movies on Amazon without a subscription. This doesn’t mean you own it. If they stop hosting it, it’s gone.

            • Squizzy@lemmy.world
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              9 months ago

              But that is where the difference is, that’s not streaming or at least not as the term is used. That was a purchase of a specific title.

              • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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                9 months ago

                streaming

                noun

                a method of transmitting or receiving data (especially video and audio material) over a computer network as a steady, continuous flow, allowing playback to start while the rest of the data is still being received.

                Whether it’s subscribed, “purchased” or free, if you don’t have the full file to copy and do what you want with it, it’s streaming.

          • Blackmist@feddit.uk
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            9 months ago

            That’s software, and frankly until you can transfer a played game to somebody else in Steam, it’s not something that is enforced.

            They cannot “oppose it” according to that, but you cannot do it.

            But buying a digital movie from Amazon or Sony? They can take that away. Haven’t heard a peep from the EU on it.

  • DeadNinja@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Logically yes, downloading or a sharing a digital file is a “lost sale” - but as Aaron Swartz said - “lost sales” are also caused by Earthquakes, Libraries/DVD Rentals, Negative Yelp reviews, Market Competitors, and so on. Why just blame it on file sharing…

  • olivebranch@lemmy.ca
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    9 months ago

    If they could, they would. Laws aren’t passed because it makes sense, but because they benefit the rich.

    • bartolomeo@suppo.fi
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      9 months ago

      “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.”

      -Anatole France