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UnitedHealth uses AI model with 90% error rate to deny care, lawsuit alleges
“calls for violence in any form against any living creature” are a violation of lemmy.world terms of service. Comments calling for or celebrating violence will be removed, and may result in additional moderation actions
Lol
What’s there to call for? He already got shot. Yay.
Any living creature can’t be the standard. That’s just absurdly Broad. By this argument you can’t have cooking communities. In any form against any living creature? I can’t cut down a tree on this website apparently.
Super disappointed mods can’t parse people not being surprised or feeling something was deserved as a consequence of their actions, and advocating the violence.
My comment that got removed was “can’t imagine why this happened”, which neither calls for, nor celebrates violence, but expresses that the conditions leading to such an action, in our dystopian US are predictable, have happened before countless times in history all over the world.
The inability to acknowledge the fault of the powerful actors and system that created such conditions and utter lack of consequences for the rich and powerful in the US are what caused such responses for an aggreably horrific act. The issue that won’t go away, on Lemmy or anywhere else, and oversimplifying the above to “advocating violence” is disingenuous if deliberate, and idiotic or accidental.
Wish I would have known how over zealous .world moderation was gonna be when I signed up. Go take a nap for a couple days.
I completely understand the “calling for violence” part of the rules. The celebrating part is a bit much, though.
💦😋🥾💦
I think something had to die for my turkey sandwich, and I would kill again for another.
How was my comment about jury nullification against tos?
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You’re just power tripping. I saw the comments. You are clearly incapable of discerning calls for violence or celebration from various other sentiments. It’s pathetic. This is some Reddit-type shit.
I posted in c/news about the mods being overzealous in deleting posts in these threads, and it was deleted for rule 6. Fair enough. However, I have looked over the modlogs for the post regarding this shooting and the number of posts that are being deleted for relatively innocuous comments is excessive.
Being happy a bad person got shot is not : Glorifying Violence, Celebrating Violence, nor Inciting Violence.
More over, If this were someone like Kim Jong-Un, or Putin who had been shot, I find it hard to believe the mods would be nearly so overzealous to delete comments saying in essence “good, he had it coming”.
I don’t think the mods are intentionally skewing the conversation as much as they have an unexamined bias.
It is okay for people to be happy a bad thing happened to a bad person. Other people are okay to disagree with this statement. Let the discussion (within reason) happen. If you aren’t prepared to moderate a discussion, turn off comments on your magazine.
i have removed comments that were celebrating the death of hamas and hezbollah leaders so i do commit to being fair in my removals
Mods are always gonna be mods. It is the personality that is required to do a thankless job for no pay.
That said: Understand that the major social networks have legal departments. A lemmy instance is a few people working out of their basements who suddenly get a letter from the French version of the FBI asking for details about someone who is TOO happy about a politician getting got.
Best case scenario? That instance now needs to make a “public” stand for when they will and won’t cooperate with law enforcement and there is no way that ends well. Worst case scenario? The instance is considered an accomplice.
I enjoy lurking at resetera because holy shit. And it was hilarious to watch the mass ban waves of the “Socialism OT” members who had spent years outright calling for people to arm themselves and fight governments. And it started within weeks of people finding out that resetera had been sold to some major corporation (I want to say MMO Network?).
Mod: The moderators of this community - and those of other communities - have an easy-to-verify track record for removing any calls for violence and encouraging/celebrating past violence, even directed at despicable individuals. This does not depend on the target of the violence. It is a part of the terms of service of the server, which are not determined by the moderators of this community. Users also agree to these terms by accessing lemmy.world (I am not a lawyer - please contact an admin if you have legal questions).
“Celebrating violence” is not in the TOS. I get how one can move from the TOS “No call for violence” to a more practical “no celebrating violence”. But no, no one here agreed to that in the TOS because that is not what is in the TOS.
And honestly the section in the TOS which you guys keep quoting:
- Attacks on users or groups
Before using the website, remember you will be interacting with actual, real people and communities. Lemmy.World is not a place for you to attack >other people or groups of people. Just because you disagree with someone doesn’t give you the right to harass them. Discuss ideas and be critical of >principles. Show the respect you desire to receive.
We do not tolerate threats of and calls for violence in any form against any living creature.
Really seems to be there to protect the users of Lemmy from violence, which I support. Not the CEOS of Corporations. I mean, in the context of the paragraph it seems obvious you guys are overreacting to most of the deleted posts.
Did you read this comment or apply any thought before you hit post? “Against any living thing” is so hilariously broad it makes me wonder if you’re just trolling.
It is interesting. Calls for violence are against the TOS. There is actually nothing in the TOS or the sidebar rules about “Celebrating Violence”.
I mean that is fine and all, and frankly it is a good policy. Just kinda bad form to be deleting so many posts for something that isn’t in the TOS.
Seems the mods have added additional interpretations to the TOS and then used that as justification to delete a whole lot of the conversation.
Anyways. I like violent video games. Is that celebrating violence, how about football? Can I like football here?
He’s not a living creature anymore.
I hope you step on a Lego.
There’s a distinction between ending evil and ending life. The former is worthy of celebration whether or not the latter overlaps with it.
I used bleach on my countertops this morning killing millions of bacteria. Put me in Lemmy Jail.
Being happy and calling for it are different
Being happy and celebrating are not so different.
Enjoying action against evil is not wrong.
But it may violate the TOS here.
Not all TOS are good, or lead to a better world.
Not all action against evil leads to a better world.
But all inaction against evil leads to a worse world. Therefore all action against evil has a greater chance of making a better world than doing nothing.
This one did.
Smile and BAN. Better keep you cams covered physically
thin line. many people got sent to jail in England for celebrating too enthusiastically online during the anti-immigrant riots. the internet today isn’t the same as the internet 15 years ago
the rules aren’t because the mods care very much. the rules are so than the website doesn’t get taken down and/or the owners/maintainers aren’t subject to serious legal penalties
thin line. many people got sent to jail in England for celebrating too enthusiastically online during the anti-immigrant riots.
The only thing I ever saw about people online being sent to jail were these two .
Parlour, of Seacroft, Leeds, who called for an attack on a hotel housing refugees and asylum seekers on Facebook, became the first person to be jailed for stirring up racial hatred during the disorder.
Kay was convicted after he used social media to call for hotels housing asylum seekers to be set alight.
So if you consider that ‘too enthusiastic’ I uh… have a different definition of that.
there were 6 arrests for social media crimes, including the one for the woman who actually kicked off the protests by sharing a fake name about the kid who attacked the concert
but that’s beyond the point. let’s look at the comment for Kay, one that you mentioned, that caught a sentence of 38 months
“Mass deportation now, set fire to all the fucking hotels full of the bastards for all I care… If that makes me racist, so be it”
that’s the portion that says he “called for hotels to be set alight”
see, to my interpretation he was saying “i would not care if they set fire to the hotels”. in the US, this would be very strongly covered under free speech. why? because it’s an opinion. in the US you can say “I believe that [xyz] should happen” and that is a belief. an opinion- something that cannot be censored. in the UK, not so much. but even in the US, you could be held legally responsible in some way depending on the interpretation of the law
and likewise, the platform hosting that controversial speech can face legal consequences. from serious fines to potentially even criminal charges depending on the enthusiasm of the government. (governments that are getting progressively more authoritarian and trigger-happy the world over)
the point I was trying to convey is that a website like this instance of Lemmy or any other must follow rules in order to stay out of legal hot water. how can you fault them for that?
if you believe this is not the correct thing to do, then you can pay money to host a website and then you can put your ass in front of the ringer to handle potential legal consequences for not doing your part to stop it. i don’t fault the mods in the slightest.
just for reference though, let’s compare and contrast the comment that got Kay arrested and put in jail and then some comments in this thread
a lot of comments in this thread are being deleted, let me see if i can catch some before they are deleted
“This bit of news does not bother me at all”
“I mean, I thought we were gonna eat the rich, but this will do.”
“this will probably lead to the increased militarisation [sic] of ceo security teams. People can start going after their family”
using the same level of scrutiny, each one of these comments could justify a sentence in the ballpark of 38 months like what happened with Kay
this is what i mean. the internet today is changing and social media admins need to change with the times or the hammer of the law can screw them. users here spamming about mod abuse do not fully understand
You’re making a good case for free speech absolutism.
using the same level of scrutiny, each one of these comments could justify a sentence in the ballpark of 38 months like what happened with Kay
That is an assertion that I highly doubt and I while at first glance your comment seems well enough thought out, I actually don’t see a lot to support the assertions made.
governments that are getting progressively more authoritarian and trigger-happy the world over this is what i mean. the internet today is changing and social media admins need to change with the times or the hammer of the law can screw them.
You are advocating for literally “Obeying in advance” to authoritarian regimes on a left leaning decentralized social media network.
He also said “every man and his dog should smash [the] f*** out of Britannia hotel (in Leeds)”, then he took his posts and:
After being warned by another Twitter user that he could be jailed, Kay tweeted: “I can categorically tell you now, I will not be arrested by Northants Police.”
During the posts, Kay said he was a Reform voter, accused police of two-tier policing and told someone who said the screenshot and posts could land him in jail that they were delusional.
He also copied Northamptonshire Police into one of the messages after being warned he could face court action by another user.
He didn’t just go to jail for a couple posts, he made a bunch of them and then after being warned they were illegal forwarded them to the police.
This guy is a dangerous if moronic racist, and really only has himself to blame.
You’re talking about being ‘silenced’ as if it’s being done by some monolithic organization; it’s not a government action, they can make whatever rules they want. You are free to make your own instance with your own rules.
Depends on where you live. There’s a very similar case in Germany from 2 years ago compared to what’s going on now.
In Germany a cop was murdered and someone posted on Facebook: “Not a single second of silence for these creatures.”
The courts have ruled that even “liking” a comment/post like that could be a crime.
I don’t speak German, but it sounds like what happened is that a lawyer pointed out that liking that post could be illegal under new laws, and is trying to get it struck down. So yes ‘could’ is carrying a lot of weight in this case.
And to be clear I’m as left as possible and anti-authoritarian, I just fail to see how being a massive racist and calling for people to be killed (and how to hide your identity, in posts following it) and then forwarding those messages to the police is somehow a Big Brother situation.
England stands only with authoritarian governments with wrong think.
Spare me, they’re being way more liberal with comments on Bluesky and they are far bigger than Lemmy.
You and the mods just want to protect rich people from group consensus about them being terrible.
Your paranoia about a slippery slop to violence is very transparent.
Bluesky has
betterlawyers.
Name a lemmy instance that was taken down because people expressed happiness at corporate shill executions. Heck, name any shut down by a government entity for anything.
Uncritical support for AIDS as the immune system is responsible for the deaths of millions of bacteria every day.
Well, remove my comment then, because that’s awesome. Fucker deserves it, and LW needs to grow a spine. Killing these assholes is the way we’re going to get change.
Locking. About 50 reports. I’m a volunteer, and don’t have enough time for this.
Insurance companies regularly commit acts of violence on the poor and sick for the benefit of their bottom line. People literally die because of the decisions this CEO made, so when the shoe is on the other foot, don’t come crying because we know you’re not an innocent actor, insurance company.
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Poor teen boys, what are they going to do without their evil oligarch father! :(
I wonder if he had life insurance, and whether it will pay out.
Policy doesn’t cover bullets as a cause of death. DENIED.
The other post had it just as bad if not worse before it was removed entirely.
I tried to bring up the point that a system where we kill CEOs because we don’t like their business practices isn’t going to fix anything and the downvotes immediately poured in.
Either this is just the way that a lot of people on Lemmy think, or there’s some concerted effort/psyop trying to stir discontent among the users here.
For a bit there I was doubting if I even wanted to be associated with Lemmy anymore, but at least it looks like the mods have been cleaning up the worst comments.
It’s an interesting moral case. The current economic system rewards sociopathic wealth hoarding. How can we fight that? Is he an enemy combatant in the class war? I literally don’t know.
not really, sins of the father is a concept older than the bible
He has teenage sons who are today experiencing the absolute worst nightmare of their lives. He has a family that will be shattered by this. This isn’t some game or a movie where the bad guys just lost. This is real life.
Sounds like what’s probably happening within dozens of families every day for people who have died because they were denied life saving coverage by UHC.
Someone up thread brought up that someone in a position such as a health care CEO can cause a tremendous amount more of suffering than death row inmates might have caused. That is an interesting point.
It has also crossed my mind that if, once a week, the richest person on the planet were killed, eventually fear would outweigh greed, and remaining folks of extraordinary means would be likely to be pushed toward justice.
And yet…
I am not a killer. I live in a country where I don’t want to see the kind of assassinations I read about abroad. I want the rule of law to prevail. I’m cognizant that if a movement took off where powerful, “evil” people were killed, there would probably be an opposite reaction that could lead to snowballing violence.
Overall, this is a complex subject. Reasonable arguments can be made and supported by various ethical frameworks. I imagine good people are likely to experience cognitive dissonance when reading this news.
tl;dr murder bad, fairness & widespread prosperity good
also
We still have egalitarian-minded Americans with disposable income and free time who have not yet devoted those resources to agitating for change. I would imagine this factor, of potential opportunities not yet exhausted, diminishes the power of arguments for the righteousness of extrajudicial processes. (Most every night after work I choose to NOT devote my time to activism.) In contrast, if no free personhours remained not occupied by labor, sleep, or activism, I imagine vigilante behavior would be easier to defend in a debate.
Every bad person in history had a family. I understand your point, I even admire your compassion. However, American insurance companies are EVIL. The people who run them are BAD. Maybe we shouldn’t celebrate the death of bad people, but we should at least be able to acknowledge that for us to live in a better world, bad things need to happen to bad people.
Yeah, give the good guys guns so they can defend themselves from the bad guys with guns. This is literally your argument
because y’all are being violent.
Being glad a bad person is gone isn’t being violent. This man chose to take part in what is widely known to be a predatory and sometimes lethal system that can literally place people into poverty. And he chose to take part in an integral way near the top of that structure. He helped perpetuate it from the top.
These are not good people.
The gunman was violent. Anyone that’s glad or indifferent is not.
How can you describe UnitedHealthCare’s practices as anything other than bloodlust? They fired the first shot in this war.
This isn’t some game or a movie where the bad guys just lost. This is real life.
This is real life where a badguy just lost
To state the obvious: (1) he is responsible for countless deaths and the attendant suffering of families. The shoe is now on the other foot and suddenly that’s a problem? (2) he could have chosen not to profit off of death and live a life of anonymity, unknown to the world and safe from vigilante justice.
I wouldn’t have shot him. I have no sympathy for him. I have sympathy for his kids and those who loved him. He was complicit in the misery and desperation that would ultimately lead to his own death.
I struggle to see how this is bad for society. Society as it exists right now, that is.
There are many more leeches that must be dealt with. Preferably not through vigilante justice. But that is all that the people have, isn’t it.
This was a human being who was violently killed. It wasn’t self defense - hell, we don’t even know who did it or why.
He killed thousands, if not tens of thousands, via his actions and decisions.
Hell, this is a good case of a self defense shooting, to prevent a mass murderer from continuing; if it was due to corporate policies.
Regardless, though, I’m never going to shed a tear for a dead oligarch.
You think the successor will change shit? This has to be changed politically, not just to hope you have a keen CEO; If you don’t deliver financially shareholders will just replace you
But main street’s still all cracked and broken! Sorry Todd the mob has spoken… Monorail!
You’ll have to forgive me for not feeling sympathy when he oversaw UHC denying claims ten times more often than other insurers. How many families do you think experienced their own worst nightmares as a result of his actions?
Wow, I came to Lemmy because the reddit mods were little bitches. Where to next?
I am honestly surprised people fucked over by health insurance haven’t tried to take things into their own hands before, if that’s what this is. And if that’s not what this is, it surprises me that it hasn’t happened yet.
Plenty of people (me included) have been severely fucked over by insurance companies. I’m not willing to kill anyone, but there are a lot of people out there who are. Especially if they know they’re dying and have nothing to lose.
The CEO is an employee, a manager. You know how shops have managers hired by the owners to run the place? If that were the motive, wouldn’t owners be the preferred target?
Did you just say with a straight face that a CEO is simply a middleman who was powerless to change the internal workings of a system?
He’s right to suggest that a board of directors should possibly be looked at as equally to blame for a company’s policies and actions.
Citizens united fucked America in the asshole.
They should be, but they are harder to get to.
I mean sure you want to kill the opposing militaries generals, but a captain or above is nothing to scoff at.
Besides CEOs are more like a lieutenant or full bird Colonel.
A CEO is a CEO. Just because they are accountable to the shareholders does not make them working class. The CEO is the closest thing a corporation has to a singular owner. Their compensation package includes shares (ownership) of the company and they are the ones who make the decisions.
Literally their “job” is to be responsible for the actions of a corporation.
Sure, they do make a lot of decisions, no question. However, those decisions are at the direction of a Board of Directors.
In the same way a manager would be fired if they went against their owners wishes, a CEO is similarly subject to their superiors.
If a CEO has very little authority as you claim then what the fuck are they getting paid all that money for?
The way I see it they either run the company, in which case they own the blame for a company’s failures, or they are just a figurehead with no real influence, in which case they don’t need to be paid any more than the actors the marketing team hires to be in their commercials.
It’s actually between those two extremes. It’s in the name, Chief Executive Officer. They’re essentially there to execute the will of the ownership. They manage the company.
edit: To further expand on that, it’s not too different from the executive of a country. While they make a lot of decisions, one thing they don’t deserve blame for is any laws passed by the legislature. It’s not a perfect analogy, but it captures the basic idea.
You are both right, if @Carrolade@lemmy.world is not claiming that a CEO is not responsible for the running of the company - they are the top tier checks of each other, with the board having marginally more power with the ability to oust the CEO.
I guess responsibility was thrust upon him in this case.
CEOs often are paid primarily in stock, so more than likely this guy had a significant ownership stake.
Excuse me? There is a bit left there on your chin.
Sometimes you take what you can get.
If the CEO disagrees with the directions of the board, the CEO has a number of options. They can easily be considered culpable.
JD Vance said about school shootings being a ‘fact of life’ Maybe ceo shootings should be equally the same?
CEOs of exploitative corporations should take notice.
edit: the fucking mods are out of line.
For real, Right!?
A fine start, looking forward to more.
Turns out it wasn’t the gunshots that killed him. Insurance declined because he wasn’t covered for that caliber and he wound up dying of infection.
/s
Healthcare is a human right. Socialized medicine is cheaper than our current system, gives more people access, and prevents incidents like this.
I have never had worse “insurance” than when I had United “Healthcare”. They have you a big book full of all their “providers”, but when you called to make an appointment, you were told they’d left United quite a while back and shouldn’t be in the book. A few providers were still in network, but they weren’t accepting new patients. Their “provider support” line was completely useless, because they would only read you out the “options” available in the book, the one with all the ghost providers.
My SIL in southern New Jersey ended up with them for some reason. She needed to see an OB/Gyn due to some abnormal bleeding that had been going on for too long. She went through their provider carousel and finally found one provider who was still in network and also still accepting new patients. That provider was 2.5 hours away from her, in the very other end of New Jersey.
I eventually did find one local provider who was in network, except they never did any comprehensive medical visits; you had to visit them for one issue at a time, at least a week apart. They’d give you a prescription or a referral but (once again) you were entirely on your own finding someone to accept the referral. Like there were times I’d make a dozen phone calls a day for weeks, trying to find someone who could see me - it was very much an entire part-time job trying to see someone!
I ended up switching insurance and have ended up ‘captured’ within a regional hospital’s provider network. The hospital bought up a bunch of local independent providers in all the different specialities. I’m really unhappy with the continued corporatization of healthcare and the conglomeration of hospital networks - but the ability to call one number, be given a specialist within reasonable driving distance and (in that same phone call) be given an appointment within a reasonable timeframe is just so refreshing!
in the very other end of New Jersey
At least she wasn’t in Texas. Might get admitted and still might not get care for that kind of thing.
I ended up switching insurance and have ended up ‘captured’ within a regional hospital’s provider network. The hospital bought up a bunch of local independent providers in all the different specialities. I’m really unhappy with the continued corporatization of healthcare and the conglomeration of hospital networks - but the ability to call one number, be given a specialist within reasonable driving distance and (in that same phone call) be given an appointment within a reasonable timeframe is just so refreshing!
I haven’t had to test their reaction to more serious issues, where I’ve heard they’re less good, but I’m covered by Kaiser and I like that in a single visit I can get my regular checkup, get my eyes checked, get new glasses, get bloodwork done, get vaccines, and pickup medicine at the pharmacy. For regular care the only thing that would be better if there wasn’t a profit motive involved at all.
I was told by my nexyt door neighbor doctor that they pay doctors such abysmally low rates that no doctor wants to take their patients. It seems like a scheme to collect premiums and not render any care for members. And its one of the largest health care companies in the US.
I’m pretty sure that’s why that one doctor would only go over one issue per visit.
With Molina, we would lose $30 by the time that the patient got in the room. We had to drop them as they refused to reimburse any better, even through all the inflation of everything else.
Awh noo… The shooter got away :(
The shooter fled the scene on foot and then on a New York Citi Bike, Tisch said. He was last seen in Central Park. As of Wednesday morning, no arrests had been made, police said. Crime Stoppers was offering a $10,000 reward for information.
Are they sure it wasn’t a pre-existing condition?
