It’s entirely relevant to the conversation. She couldn’t get pregnant, so she didn’t give a shit that women’s reproductive rights were on the table until the leopard ate her face personally. I’m as left as they come, but the virtue signaling you just did is why so many people get so turned off by so much rhetoric of our political side.
It’s not virtue signaling. The language the other person used is what the republicans constantly say when they are describing trans women because they don’t believe trans women are women, and it’s used to take away the rights of trans people, and it’s working.
There are plenty of ways to say that she isn’t cis and doesn’t have a uterus while being respectful – like I just did.
I’m as left as they come, but the virtue signaling you just did is why so many people get so turned off by so much rhetoric of our political side.
I think you want the trans community and its allies to not confront you on dangerous rhetoric then, while they constantly have to fight people on the left and right to keep from having their rights stripped away.
Being an ally means being open to learning when we make mistakes, and the language the other person used wasn’t appropriate. I hope you and others here can understand why.
It was just plain virtue signaling. This comment you made isn’t quite as plain, but it still isn’t helpful.
The difference is, in the first comment you just left it as, “not allowed here”, which is just signaling your virtue, and more importantly, not correcting or helping in any way. I implore you to explain why someone’s verbiage is wrong, not just shut people down with no explanation. Even in this comment, you didn’t offer an alternative for “biological male”, so the person you originally addressed likely will write you off, and keep saying it.
Even in this comment, you didn’t offer an alternative for “biological male”
I absolutely did: “trans woman”.
I was educating. It’s 2024 and trans people are dying and having their basic human rights taken away, due in part to the pervasive rhetoric I originally called out. I expect better of people, and transphobic comments on lemmy are not welcome and break the rule of civility in the lemmy.world news community.
Also, you’re telling me - a trans person - that they are virtue signaling about trans issues.
Assigned male at birth is the term you want to use. “Biological male” is a term used by transphobes to spread misinformation.
Biology is very complex and not your elementary school version of biology. What makes someone “biologically” male? Is it having a penis, having testis, having more testosterone than estrogen, having XY chromosomes? These can all be intermixed with other characteristics.
The “basic biology” definition doesn’t work in the real world, and the people using it are actively trying to harm trans people or ignorant. Now you’re more informed so ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore.
Who assigned them male at birth? What if they were raised like a cisgender female typically would be in our society?
What makes someone “assigned at birth”? Is it dressing in masculine clothes, is it having a name like Michael and Billy, is it having a circumcision? These can all be comingled with other variations of child rearing.
Just because a parent assigns a “gender” at birth doesn’t make it someone’s actual identifying “gender”. As a young child they have no say in the matter and it’s quite frankly wrong to whitewash their childhood history and personal trauma like that.
Now that you’re more informed, I hope moving forward you stop trying to erase people’s adolescent psychological adversity.
If you ever find yourself wondering why there’s people out there that don’t speak up about trans hate, just go reread your original reply to me. My comment was nothing close to hateful or bigoted, but you’re not gonna tolerate wrong speak on lemmy.
You clearly could see where I was coming from and where my support is directed. Instead of total indifference to my comment, which would have been the bare minimum amount of attention you could give to it. You decided to take umbrage with me saying “biological” instead of what makes you happy and throw out intersex groups that make up a fraction of a percent of the entire population like an uno reverse card.
Then to cap it off you made sure to declare that I’ve been “properly educated”, so sayeth you. So from here on out, I need to use the right language or… else?
I’m not quite sure what your final edict was supposed to imply. That if I don’t use the right language my trans friends won’t talk to me anymore? I’ll get kicked out of the gay club?
Instead of leaving it, you had to make it a point to punch down on someone who isn’t as “informed” as you and put me on blast like I just said the N word equivalent for trans persons.
Seriously, it’s great you want to help spread awareness, but damn you took a super hostile and adversarial tone right off the bat.
Just calling my shot here. I wrote all this out on my phone and it will not be well received despite the fact that there’s members of trans alliance and advocacy groups who disagree with your position and disagree with the use of “ASAB”. There’s people within the community who dislike using the term trans as a catch all.
Where do you personally draw the line? Are you going to stop saying ASAB now that you know some people don’t like it? Are you going to keep saying “trans” even though some people feel like it marginalizes the community and feels too informal to discuss complex gender identities?
I didn’t take umbrage with your original comment. I just pointed out that it’s wrong and you should stop. I was annoyed when you seemed to double down.
Intersex people are just clear that “basic biology” is a non-functioning understanding of what biology is. Intersex people couldn’t exist if what you learned in high school bio was the end. It’s a clear indication that sex is not just some binary thing. It’s a very complex thing. Even non-intersex people have different developments in the growth due to different hormone levels and other things, and we can even control hormone levels artificially. It’s very complex, and the only useful term is AFAB/AMAB, and then more detailed medical records.
Then to cap it off you made sure to declare that I’ve been “properly educated”, so sayeth you. So from here on out, I need to use the right language or… else?
Yeah, use the more accurate language, or else we know you’re choosing not to. Nothings going to happen. Everyone gets to make choices in life. I can’t make you do anything, but from one cis-gendered person to another, it’s not difficult to be better. It’s just a choice.
You’re getting really offended by someone just informing you the language you used was wrong. It wasn’t even a particularly insulting comment.
Where do you personally draw the line? Are you going to stop saying ASAB now that you know some people don’t like it? Are you going to keep saying “trans” even though some people feel like it marginalizes the community and feels too informal to discuss complex gender identities?
I rarely have a use for either term, so I draw the line where it’s useful for others. If you’re a doctor, that’s where it matters, and after gender confirmation, your “sex” is a lot more complicated. After a while or hormone therapy, you’re more akin to your chosen sex than your birth sex. That’s why the “biologically male/female” term isn’t useful. It’s assuming their birth sex is their current sex for medical purposes, but it’s more complex than that. Sex assigned at birth is useful because it limits it to that period specifically, and your medical records tell the whole story.
The AEI article you posted seems to ignore this fact. It seems to say your birth sex is the important factor. It’s just one of many. For future development, the one your hormones correspond with is likely more important.
The CLR article mirrors what I’ve said earlier:
“By referring instead to sex assigned at birth, transgender rights advocates convey that “biological sex” is not simple, static, or binary and that gender identity also has biological aspects.”
For whatever reason people online are more interested in being outraged
I agree. People should be more calm, even when corrected. Being outraged doesn’t help. It only acts to cement our mind in preconceived ideas. Changing our minds when provided more information that counters our previous beliefs is something that should be commended, not fled from.
You’re a the most qualified person on the internet for cisgender, trans, and intersex word policing.
Now that I know and if I don’t change, you’ll make sure to report it to the cisgender police for trans activities special victims unit…
It’s interesting you chose the statement “it’s not difficult to be better, it’s just a choice”. You could have started this entire interaction with “hey dude, just a heads up that a lot of transphobes use phrases like ‘biological male’ to invalidate trans identities”, but instead you took the opportunity to speak down to me and made sure I was now “educated” and that I can stop using wrong speak.
Thank God you’re here as an ally to make people question why those of us on this side of the fence can’t even get along internally.
You’re a the most qualified person on the internet for cisgender, trans, and intersex word policing.
I definitely am not.
Now that I know and if I don’t change, you’ll make sure to report it to the cisgender police for trans activities special victims unit…
I haven’t reported or downvoted you.
It’s interesting you chose the statement “it’s not difficult to be better, it’s just a choice”. You could have started this entire interaction with “hey dude, just a heads up that a lot of transphobes use phrases like ‘biological male’ to invalidate trans identities”, but instead you took the opportunity to speak down to me and made sure I was now “educated” and that I can stop using wrong speak.
I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.
“I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.”
Really? You seriously can re-read your comment and don’t see how shitty it comes across when addressing it to someone who used a word you disagree with unwittingly?
“Assigned male at birth is the term you want to use. “Biological male” is a term used by transphobes to spread misinformation.”
Not informative at all. It’s you telling me what word I want to use, while implying I’m a transphobe attempting to spread misinformation.
" Biology is very complex and not your elementary school version of biology. What makes someone “biologically” male? Is it having a penis, having testis, having more testosterone than estrogen, having XY chromosomes? These can all be intermixed with other characteristics."
Here’s the fun part where you state I have an elementary level understanding of biology.
“The “basic biology” definition doesn’t work in the real world, and the people using it are actively trying to harm trans people or ignorant. Now you’re more informed so ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore.”
Here’s the cherry on top where you talk about me not knowing how to discuss complex topics in the real world or that I may be actively trying to harm trans people at worst or ignorant at best. Lastly, in case you know I’m not a transphobe that my ignorance can no longer be an excuse.
You seriously couldn’t possibly think of any other combination of words to get your point across without making me out to be someone that’s intentionally skirting the line of ignorance and bigotry in an effort to harm trans people?
Man, just reread what was shared with you and take the learning experience. You tried to be cute by making a mad-lib out of it and you sound way worse now than you did two comments up.
Edit hours later after checking to see if my advice was heeded:
Oh no, I didn’t heed my trans wisdoms lords advice and they’ve decided to deride someone for a singular word choice to make themselves feel morally superior!
This will definitely advance the trans acceptance of the common person! Or maybe stay with me here for a moment, not everyone on the internet is as accepting as you are and when they see someone getting slammed for “wrong speak” it reinforces their shitty beliefs.
“If someone who loves and supports trans people is getting shit on for saying a double plus ungood word by other trans allies, then why would I ever want to be a part of that.”
I’ve heard these conversations verbatim from people I work with who hold actual hatred for trans people and trans acceptance. Once again though you’re all living for up votes and that brief instance you get to feel morally superior on the internet and share these snippets in your discord groups. This is clearly such a flippant topic for you that all you could muster up is a meme.
If you’re taking a few online comments “from a perceived group” and labeling the entire movement and ideology of it bad because “they said mean things to me”. Well sorry pal, you were just looking for an excuse.
Try talking to those co-workers and see how nice their word play can be. Should definitely join the people who hold actual hatred than to get over some language critiques so you can properly communicate with a minority group online. You are trying to just communicate right? Just as speaking to a professional or someone without your background you tend to communicate differently to be more effective right?
I get it, you’re old-think and stuck in your ways. “I don’t actively harm people, so people shouldn’t be harmed by anything I do”. It’s so much easier to just blame everyone else and continue living in your bubble instead of actually learning new perspectives. People stay locked in their ways everyday, why should you have to be any different?
If your intention was to sidetrack any conversation from the gun article and only have a debate about trans people, well you did a good job because all of that above is a hot mess I was not interested in after only a few comments.
The problem is what does it mean to be biologically a man? Is it a static thing defined at birth or is it a description of the living organism as it exists? (It’s the latter.) For example, there are some animals that can change their sex naturally. We don’t say they’re just the one they’re born as.
OK, so now humans. If biological sex is a description of the person as they exist currently, what does it mean for us? Chromosomes are a useful tool because they contain the code that tells our body how to develop, but the actual development is the part that matters, not the chromosomes. The chromosomes will dictate what hormones are produced, and the hormones are what actually control development. We can control what hormones are in the body, so we can hijack the process and change the actual development.
So, since biological sex is a description of the creature as they are, if we hijack the process of development to tell the body to develop according to given sex, that’s what their biological sex should be called, right? The clownfish that was once a male that changes into a female is a female. We don’t say it’s a male just because it once was one.
I can’t say whether it’s offensive. I’m a cis man. The issue I do know is that it’s used by transphobes to pretend like they know more than they do and harm trans people. For example, congress’s anti-trans bathroom rule. Speaker Johnson said: “All single-sex facilities in the Capitol and House Office Buildings — such as restrooms, changing rooms, and locker rooms — are reserved for individuals of that biological sex” He’s using the term as a weapon, not as a descriptive tool.
Where it’s most important is for doctors. My understanding is assigned sex at birth and medical records and understanding who the person is now is the useful information. They do need to know sex assigned at birth, and they also need to know if they’re on HRT or have had other procedures. They have to treat trans people differently than their sex at birth because biologically they are different.
She was 100% on board with them regulating reproductive care because it has never personally affected her as a biological male.
She only has an issue now that her favorite team turned on her after telling her for the last 30 years that she’s next.
Calling trans women biological males is transphobic hate speech. Not allowed here.
It’s entirely relevant to the conversation. She couldn’t get pregnant, so she didn’t give a shit that women’s reproductive rights were on the table until the leopard ate her face personally. I’m as left as they come, but the virtue signaling you just did is why so many people get so turned off by so much rhetoric of our political side.
It’s not virtue signaling. The language the other person used is what the republicans constantly say when they are describing trans women because they don’t believe trans women are women, and it’s used to take away the rights of trans people, and it’s working.
There are plenty of ways to say that she isn’t cis and doesn’t have a uterus while being respectful – like I just did.
I think you want the trans community and its allies to not confront you on dangerous rhetoric then, while they constantly have to fight people on the left and right to keep from having their rights stripped away.
Being an ally means being open to learning when we make mistakes, and the language the other person used wasn’t appropriate. I hope you and others here can understand why.
It was just plain virtue signaling. This comment you made isn’t quite as plain, but it still isn’t helpful.
The difference is, in the first comment you just left it as, “not allowed here”, which is just signaling your virtue, and more importantly, not correcting or helping in any way. I implore you to explain why someone’s verbiage is wrong, not just shut people down with no explanation. Even in this comment, you didn’t offer an alternative for “biological male”, so the person you originally addressed likely will write you off, and keep saying it.
Your approach is just ineffective.
Educate, don’t berate.
deleted by creator
I absolutely did: “trans woman”.
I was educating. It’s 2024 and trans people are dying and having their basic human rights taken away, due in part to the pervasive rhetoric I originally called out. I expect better of people, and transphobic comments on lemmy are not welcome and break the rule of civility in the lemmy.world news community.
Also, you’re telling me - a trans person - that they are virtue signaling about trans issues.
deleted by creator
Assigned male at birth is the term you want to use. “Biological male” is a term used by transphobes to spread misinformation.
Biology is very complex and not your elementary school version of biology. What makes someone “biologically” male? Is it having a penis, having testis, having more testosterone than estrogen, having XY chromosomes? These can all be intermixed with other characteristics.
The “basic biology” definition doesn’t work in the real world, and the people using it are actively trying to harm trans people or ignorant. Now you’re more informed so ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore.
Who assigned them male at birth? What if they were raised like a cisgender female typically would be in our society?
What makes someone “assigned at birth”? Is it dressing in masculine clothes, is it having a name like Michael and Billy, is it having a circumcision? These can all be comingled with other variations of child rearing.
Just because a parent assigns a “gender” at birth doesn’t make it someone’s actual identifying “gender”. As a young child they have no say in the matter and it’s quite frankly wrong to whitewash their childhood history and personal trauma like that.
Now that you’re more informed, I hope moving forward you stop trying to erase people’s adolescent psychological adversity.
Assigned at birth is referring to what the doctor writes on your birth certificate. It’s not complicated. It has nothing to do with gender.
If you ever find yourself wondering why there’s people out there that don’t speak up about trans hate, just go reread your original reply to me. My comment was nothing close to hateful or bigoted, but you’re not gonna tolerate wrong speak on lemmy.
You clearly could see where I was coming from and where my support is directed. Instead of total indifference to my comment, which would have been the bare minimum amount of attention you could give to it. You decided to take umbrage with me saying “biological” instead of what makes you happy and throw out intersex groups that make up a fraction of a percent of the entire population like an uno reverse card.
Then to cap it off you made sure to declare that I’ve been “properly educated”, so sayeth you. So from here on out, I need to use the right language or… else?
I’m not quite sure what your final edict was supposed to imply. That if I don’t use the right language my trans friends won’t talk to me anymore? I’ll get kicked out of the gay club?
Instead of leaving it, you had to make it a point to punch down on someone who isn’t as “informed” as you and put me on blast like I just said the N word equivalent for trans persons.
Seriously, it’s great you want to help spread awareness, but damn you took a super hostile and adversarial tone right off the bat.
Just calling my shot here. I wrote all this out on my phone and it will not be well received despite the fact that there’s members of trans alliance and advocacy groups who disagree with your position and disagree with the use of “ASAB”. There’s people within the community who dislike using the term trans as a catch all.
Where do you personally draw the line? Are you going to stop saying ASAB now that you know some people don’t like it? Are you going to keep saying “trans” even though some people feel like it marginalizes the community and feels too informal to discuss complex gender identities?
Gender Dysphoria Alliance
The Problem with saying ASAB
Columbia Law Review
For whatever reason people online are more interested in being outraged.
I didn’t take umbrage with your original comment. I just pointed out that it’s wrong and you should stop. I was annoyed when you seemed to double down.
Intersex people are just clear that “basic biology” is a non-functioning understanding of what biology is. Intersex people couldn’t exist if what you learned in high school bio was the end. It’s a clear indication that sex is not just some binary thing. It’s a very complex thing. Even non-intersex people have different developments in the growth due to different hormone levels and other things, and we can even control hormone levels artificially. It’s very complex, and the only useful term is AFAB/AMAB, and then more detailed medical records.
Yeah, use the more accurate language, or else we know you’re choosing not to. Nothings going to happen. Everyone gets to make choices in life. I can’t make you do anything, but from one cis-gendered person to another, it’s not difficult to be better. It’s just a choice.
You’re getting really offended by someone just informing you the language you used was wrong. It wasn’t even a particularly insulting comment.
I rarely have a use for either term, so I draw the line where it’s useful for others. If you’re a doctor, that’s where it matters, and after gender confirmation, your “sex” is a lot more complicated. After a while or hormone therapy, you’re more akin to your chosen sex than your birth sex. That’s why the “biologically male/female” term isn’t useful. It’s assuming their birth sex is their current sex for medical purposes, but it’s more complex than that. Sex assigned at birth is useful because it limits it to that period specifically, and your medical records tell the whole story.
The AEI article you posted seems to ignore this fact. It seems to say your birth sex is the important factor. It’s just one of many. For future development, the one your hormones correspond with is likely more important.
The CLR article mirrors what I’ve said earlier:
“By referring instead to sex assigned at birth, transgender rights advocates convey that “biological sex” is not simple, static, or binary and that gender identity also has biological aspects.”
I agree. People should be more calm, even when corrected. Being outraged doesn’t help. It only acts to cement our mind in preconceived ideas. Changing our minds when provided more information that counters our previous beliefs is something that should be commended, not fled from.
Got it.
I apologize.
You’re a the most qualified person on the internet for cisgender, trans, and intersex word policing.
Now that I know and if I don’t change, you’ll make sure to report it to the cisgender police for trans activities special victims unit…
It’s interesting you chose the statement “it’s not difficult to be better, it’s just a choice”. You could have started this entire interaction with “hey dude, just a heads up that a lot of transphobes use phrases like ‘biological male’ to invalidate trans identities”, but instead you took the opportunity to speak down to me and made sure I was now “educated” and that I can stop using wrong speak.
Thank God you’re here as an ally to make people question why those of us on this side of the fence can’t even get along internally.
I definitely am not.
I haven’t reported or downvoted you.
I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.
“I don’t think I spoke down to you, but you are welcome to your opinion. I tried to inform you.”
Really? You seriously can re-read your comment and don’t see how shitty it comes across when addressing it to someone who used a word you disagree with unwittingly?
“Assigned male at birth is the term you want to use. “Biological male” is a term used by transphobes to spread misinformation.”
Not informative at all. It’s you telling me what word I want to use, while implying I’m a transphobe attempting to spread misinformation.
" Biology is very complex and not your elementary school version of biology. What makes someone “biologically” male? Is it having a penis, having testis, having more testosterone than estrogen, having XY chromosomes? These can all be intermixed with other characteristics."
Here’s the fun part where you state I have an elementary level understanding of biology.
“The “basic biology” definition doesn’t work in the real world, and the people using it are actively trying to harm trans people or ignorant. Now you’re more informed so ignorance isn’t an excuse anymore.”
Here’s the cherry on top where you talk about me not knowing how to discuss complex topics in the real world or that I may be actively trying to harm trans people at worst or ignorant at best. Lastly, in case you know I’m not a transphobe that my ignorance can no longer be an excuse.
You seriously couldn’t possibly think of any other combination of words to get your point across without making me out to be someone that’s intentionally skirting the line of ignorance and bigotry in an effort to harm trans people?
Man, just reread what was shared with you and take the learning experience. You tried to be cute by making a mad-lib out of it and you sound way worse now than you did two comments up.
Edit hours later after checking to see if my advice was heeded:
Oh no, I didn’t heed my trans wisdoms lords advice and they’ve decided to deride someone for a singular word choice to make themselves feel morally superior!
This will definitely advance the trans acceptance of the common person! Or maybe stay with me here for a moment, not everyone on the internet is as accepting as you are and when they see someone getting slammed for “wrong speak” it reinforces their shitty beliefs.
“If someone who loves and supports trans people is getting shit on for saying a double plus ungood word by other trans allies, then why would I ever want to be a part of that.”
I’ve heard these conversations verbatim from people I work with who hold actual hatred for trans people and trans acceptance. Once again though you’re all living for up votes and that brief instance you get to feel morally superior on the internet and share these snippets in your discord groups. This is clearly such a flippant topic for you that all you could muster up is a meme.
If you’re taking a few online comments “from a perceived group” and labeling the entire movement and ideology of it bad because “they said mean things to me”. Well sorry pal, you were just looking for an excuse.
Try talking to those co-workers and see how nice their word play can be. Should definitely join the people who hold actual hatred than to get over some language critiques so you can properly communicate with a minority group online. You are trying to just communicate right? Just as speaking to a professional or someone without your background you tend to communicate differently to be more effective right?
I get it, you’re old-think and stuck in your ways. “I don’t actively harm people, so people shouldn’t be harmed by anything I do”. It’s so much easier to just blame everyone else and continue living in your bubble instead of actually learning new perspectives. People stay locked in their ways everyday, why should you have to be any different?
If your intention was to sidetrack any conversation from the gun article and only have a debate about trans people, well you did a good job because all of that above is a hot mess I was not interested in after only a few comments.
I’m not a trans person, but I’m pretty sure that “assigned X at birth” refers to whatever gender is assigned on one’s birth certificate.
I’m not super versed into this, just looking to learn 🤗
Doesn’t that and having a penis means being a biological man? I don’t really see how “biological man” is offensive…
The problem is what does it mean to be biologically a man? Is it a static thing defined at birth or is it a description of the living organism as it exists? (It’s the latter.) For example, there are some animals that can change their sex naturally. We don’t say they’re just the one they’re born as.
OK, so now humans. If biological sex is a description of the person as they exist currently, what does it mean for us? Chromosomes are a useful tool because they contain the code that tells our body how to develop, but the actual development is the part that matters, not the chromosomes. The chromosomes will dictate what hormones are produced, and the hormones are what actually control development. We can control what hormones are in the body, so we can hijack the process and change the actual development.
So, since biological sex is a description of the creature as they are, if we hijack the process of development to tell the body to develop according to given sex, that’s what their biological sex should be called, right? The clownfish that was once a male that changes into a female is a female. We don’t say it’s a male just because it once was one.
I can’t say whether it’s offensive. I’m a cis man. The issue I do know is that it’s used by transphobes to pretend like they know more than they do and harm trans people. For example, congress’s anti-trans bathroom rule. Speaker Johnson said: “All single-sex facilities in the Capitol and House Office Buildings — such as restrooms, changing rooms, and locker rooms — are reserved for individuals of that biological sex” He’s using the term as a weapon, not as a descriptive tool.
Where it’s most important is for doctors. My understanding is assigned sex at birth and medical records and understanding who the person is now is the useful information. They do need to know sex assigned at birth, and they also need to know if they’re on HRT or have had other procedures. They have to treat trans people differently than their sex at birth because biologically they are different.
I see ! Thanks, this was a very cool insight ❤️