- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- politics@beehaw.org
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The failure that will forever define Bernie’s political legacy will be not turning the energy that was behind him in 2020 into a more permanent movement. He just gave the phone bank and email lists to the Dems and fell in line.
…the progressive movement held our collective noses and reacted to an existential crisis for the preservation of american democracy in the face of imminent fascism, and the coalition succeeded at that goal for a short while, but only just…
It’s not a failure, he made a choice. In hindsight we see it as the wrong choice, but we don’t know what the alternative is. We will never know if it was right or wrong, failure or success.
Nothing is ever so simple.
It’s a failure unless his goal was for his movement to fizzle out and flounder.
Didn’t be obtuse.
To fix your logic “It would be a failure if his goal was to keep his movement alive at any cost”. That clearly wasn’t his goal.
Or have I missed the point entirely, and this is not a discussion but some point scoring thing based on digestible one liners.
Bernie didn’t keep his movement alive nor did the Democrats win in 2024. Something clearly was wrong with what he was trying to do.
He’s right. In a decaying capitalist state like the current US, workers want change. In the absence of a genuine working class party that correctly blames capitalism and the capitalist class for a revolution, you get a “radical” capitalist-funded party that at least points the blame at someone — marginalized people.
The dems only offer to preserve the status quo, and no one fucking wants the status quo.
Get organized. Liberal democracies in the imperial core historically always slide to fascism.
While it’s good to hear him say it now, I’m very annoyed that he didn’t attempt to hold Dem feet to the fire while they were in an election, and could have potentially extracted concessions. AFAIK he’s also still not calling the Palestinian genocide a genocide.
This is not to take away from the message that the democratic party must be destroyed and replaced with a working class (IE: Communist) party, which is correct, but merely to point out that Bernie himself cannot be trusted to lead it.
Brother is hurtling towards 90. I wouldn’t trust him to lead a drum circle.
…this is the crux of it: bernie’s time was eight years ago, and even though i absolutely respect his lucid resolve, the movement needs fresh figureheads to sustain its momentum…
Even here in Europe where there are genuine left wing parties, where there’s proportional representation, where we have mistly functional education, labour class people are voting for folks who blame poor people and immigrants for everything that goes wrong. I think part of the blame is with tabloid style media and social media magnifying formerly fringe opinion. Just saying that having a real alternative for the populist right, might not be enough.
Any example at hand of these liberal democracies that hystorically always slide to fascism? What does imperial core mean?
Primarily referring to Germany and Italy’s descent into fascism, and we’re currently seeing this happen in France, and now in the US. These countries only see a shift to the left with an external force, like Scandinavian states giving concessions to the working class when the nearby USSR posed the threat of a good example; of course, these concessions are gradually being taken away now.
Imperial core countries refers to colonizer countries that now control financial institutions like the IMF and World Bank.
I specify liberal democracies in imperial core countries because we have seen limited successes for the left outside it. Like Allende coming to power in Chile (before being overthrown in a US-backed coup 2 years later), or now Lula and Claudia coming to power in Brazil and Mexico.
Read Blackshirts And Reds
Sorry, I’m italian. We’ve been fascists forever. The partito comunista italiano that wrote after ww2 the antifascist Italian constitution, with other parties obviously, had to allow the birth of movimento sociale Italiano: too many fascists, impossible to manage the situation, they had to organize. Although there are signs of significative active civil resistance, the matter it’s that Italian people are fascist. Full stop. Also Italy has never been a liberal democracy, nor a fully free democracy, with usa helping terrorism (mainly, you guessed it, the far right one) during the 70s for example, and heavily meddling in our politics, at least until Enrico berlinguer was alive. I mean. We got the pope, for 2000 years, approx. You’re invited to live in a country whose parliament sends laws to Vaticano, before discussing them; just in case, you know, they have a say.
Finally, being one of the few leftists left (I liked the pun) in Europe, I’m just waiting for putin to die, he’ll have to, because I have no other choice than waiting. I just hope that USA won’t wage the nth war in between, as they already helped the xenophobic nationalist far right Europeans movements a bit too much, in recent years.
So no, I cannot agree with you. I hope you see i’m disagreeing in a civil manner.
Have a nice day, thank you for your time and kind response.
PS USA crying about Trump? I mean, we had Berlusconi in politics for ~20 years. Been there, done that, ~25 years earlier.
Edit I hope I don’t have to remind anyone that modern dictatorship was born in Italy, under the name of fascism. Yeah, keep hoping
It’s an interesting ending to an otherwise fine comment. Bernie would slide the US towards liberal democracy, further from fascism
That’s not how Capitalism or fascism works. Capitalism is in constant decay, this decay leads to sharpening contradictions and fascism is deployed to protect Capitalist interests. Bernie would not end Capitalism, he may only slow it’s rate of descent, not stop it or reverse it. A great work on fascism is Blackshirts and Reds. I can provide a longer Marxism intro reading list if you’d like, but Blackshirts is a great start.
I know, no need to worry. My comment didn’t portray Bernie as some anticapitalist Jesus who can single-handedly force a revolution if that needed clarification
Imo, that fact that people voted and vote in the USA doesn’t mean that USA isn’t a fascist country. Just look at how bullishly they waged wars, and made millions of people suffer torture, pain, abandonment. They’re the epitome of “me ne frego!”
It’s not that liberal democracies always slide, specifically, it’s that Capitalist states always slide, and this is heightened by being in the Global North. Global North countries brutally explioit Global South countries via Imperialism, by relying on vastly under-paid labor and selling it in the Global North for higher prices.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, the violent immune system employed by the Capitalist class. A great work on fascism is Blackshirts and Reds. I can provide a longer Marxism intro reading list if you’d like, but Blackshirts is a great start.
I also recommend Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, and the famous Yellow Parenti Speech (a small excerpt here.
It’s worth noting that “fascism” specifically is a eurocentric — or even more specifically a 20th century-centric — ideology. You could argue the US has always been “fascist”, just that the fascism has been focused on people outside it — the countries it constantly wages wars on. Still a good way to describe the direction declining capitalist states are headed to, I guess.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, the violent immune system employed by the Capitalist class. A great work on fascism is Blackshirts and Reds. I can provide a longer Marxism intro reading list if you’d like, but Blackshirts is a great start.
You could argue the US has always been “fascist”, just that the fascism has been focused on people outside it
Hitler was inspired on how to treat the Jews, Romani, disabled, and queers, based on how we treated Native Americans and Black Americans. He saw the country doing so well in the world stage excluding millions from the same status and privilege as the normalized default, and thought it would work for Germany and Europe, by force.
America was founded by rich white oligarchs, it was never going to support anything good without a lot of people letting go unless they died.
EDIT: Sorry if you get double pinged, server had a hiccup as I was posting.
Reread your post and then really consider if that rhetoric would get >50% of the vote. It’s just more academic jibberish that falls flat outside coastal cities.
That’s not the message to voters, that’s the message to thinking people who are evaluating the problem. The message to voters is much more simple. Point the finger where the blame lies, and tell the people what you’ll do for them. Of course no serious funding will come your way if you try that though, since the corpos running the country aren’t going to donate to a candidate who seeks to unseat them. There you see is the root of the problem. It’s not a government of the people, by the people, unless you believe that silly lie that corporations are people.
Yes. in 2016. Not this year, he took too many terrible bargains.
And of course the dems would rather get dissolved in acid then actually run him. They would have ran the ghost of Richard Nixon over him.
Bernie couldn’t win when it was just Democrats deciding amongst themselves.
The Democrats ran Bernie before, during a time that was much more favorable for a progressive candidate. Only then, his name was George McGovern and he got beat like a rented mule.
Progressives need to learn how few people in this country are willing to consider the notion of the possibility of thinking about letting their daughters date a progressive, much less elect one President. It’s not enough to be right, if you’re fucking stupid about the citizens of this country.
Something I’ve realized about the post mortem takes is that peoples opinions on what went wrong is often just the laundry list of things they wanted and didn’t get.
So the candidate wasn’t perfect enough for them and if candidate just did all that well enough for me then it would have been a victory. Easy peasy. Too bad they aren’t the entire electorate.
Seems only natural in an era of heightened partisanship. It’s not even left-right but divisions among factions within. Why is everyone ignoring the strong anti-communist sentiment among Latino populations. If Harris lost that by surprisingly large margins campaigning more center than anything then a proper left candidate would have even worse numbers.
good bit
Most likely the DNC would have sabotaged him like Labour sabotaged Jeremy Corvin
Yeah that’s the subtext of the headline. Or should be if it isn’t the author’s intent. This shouldn’t be understood as an endorsement of social liberalism, but as a denunciation of the system as a way of obtaining good outcomes.
Yes but then the DNC would not be able to please their donor class. Which is far more important than winning.
The republican party and adjacent is mostly white nationalists, what would make you think that they would switch to voting for a Jewish person? He would have unfortunately lost.
He should found a new party based on his moral and ethical values. First, take over Vermont government, after that let’s see. He’s the only politician I know whou could pull this one in the American scene. He’s already independent and representing much more than Vermont.
I’m down, but he’s just so old. With his only heir apparent being AOC. People don’t like her nearly as much despite basically identical policy proposals. I wonder why?
I’ve said this before but at this point I think our only hope is the destruction of the Republican party so Democrats are the new conservatives. This way a progressive party could arise.
Or get rid of first past the post voting and the electoral college. But that seems harder somehow.
Or, honestly, this is the end and there is no hope left.
This is why he should do it now. It’s his ideas the ones founding the party, not him. This is still one right moment, the Democrats are in crisis and the people opposed to Trump feel strayed. Meanwhile, the Republican party is raving on their victory, but we all know Trump will fuck it up as soon as he is in charge the next year, leaving people disenchanted.
People don’t like her nearly as much despite basically identical policy proposals. I wonder why?
AOC voted to protect the rail corporations from the union strike.
despite basically identical policy proposals
You don’t really have this problem when you vote for political parties instead of presidents.
We already have like 5 more. Why wouldn’t he join greens or communists or peace and freedom or another?
Because Greens take insane amounts of donations from right wing donors, don’t have any issues getting investments in big oil, don’t do anything outside of election years, have hardly any positions in actual government (4 mayors, 17 council board members across states and not even all of them are actually are, that’s being generous). The Green Party in its current state is quite literally a scam and should not be supported.
The other ones you mentioned are fine.
Sounds like you’re just spewing propaganda from the Dems
The Green Party having no political candidates in meaningful elected positions is propaganda?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Green_politicians_who_have_held_office_in_the_United_States
Okay.
Unrelated, just more mega donors with names https://www.morningstar.com/news/marketwatch/20240618164/meet-the-10-biggest-megadonors-in-the-2024-election-cycle-so-far
And forgive me for thinking that the Leader of the Green Party should probably not have investments in the oil industry and Home Depot, index/retirement fund or not. If I can reallocate my inherited investments, the leader of the Green Party can too.
The open secret link is just showing individuals that have donated more than $200, and the morningstar link doesn’t mention the green party at all.
Yes, I said the morningstar link was unrelated
Dude. US greens are a straight up lie.
I don’t get it. He seems to understand the dems will never be a working-class party. Why’s he still in there instead of an actual socialist org like the PSL or FRSO?
Fear for his life, probably. He seems to be popular enough to give those parties a momentum that would make him a target of both the capitalist parties.
Black Panther party members — including its leader — were killed by the FBI. A genuine threat to capitalist rule will naturally have to face these threats.
Last I saw something like 55% of the populace looks like it voted for trump. In these crazy pants times I do not see bernie winning.
55% of the vote, 20% of the population. Democrats stayed home.
…rather presumptuous that non-voters were democrats…
Compared to last election, several million were people who recently voted Democrat, yes.
About 16 million, I believe.
55% of the electorate who care which is sorta more sad sounding.
Stayed home, or had their votes discarded because of hanging chads? We’ll never know because there was no challenge issued.
Confront reality, please. Harris couldn’t replicate past voter turnout because she made no wide, progressive promises like Medicare for All, which the working class loves.
Many who voted democrat in 2020 voted republican in 2024 because the billionaire class convinced them democrats caused inflation when democrats said they would tax billionaires.
Imagine what they would do to Bernie.
No, blue voters didn’t vote for Republicans. This is the second thread I see you posting this misinformation when it’s not remotely true outside of ONE demographic (Latino men). Left of centre democrats just didn’t show up to the polls (and they had no reason to, tbh).
You can look up the turnout numbers yourself, it’s literally headline news.
Edit: nvm, you seem to have it out for Bernie and think Biden/Harris was a fine ticket even when Dems were asking Biden to step down. I see your game.
Ok bro, and what about the DEMOCRATS that didn’t vote this time around??
How did Harris lose 10-15 million votes + Trump lost 2 million votes from 2020 if EVERY INDEPENDENT from 2020 voted Trump?
All anyone has regarding that is annecdotal. But in my experience many friends, family, coworkers who voted democrat in 2020 were convinced by republican ads that democrats were to blame for the inflation caused by Covid and price gouging.
We literally have the numbers, it’s called “counting the ballots”. What in the post-fact world?
This has to be a troll.
and they had no reason to, tbh).
I understand your point, but preventing another 4 years under the walking orange disaster is a pretty good reason.
I agree with you (hence why I finally got my dual citizenship and voted) but a lot of people can’t see beyond their own needs. An existential reason was never going to be enough to galvanize them.
You are right of course. It doesn’t make it any easier to stomach.
Congratulations on your citizenship, for whatever that’s worth these days. Honestly, I’m emotionally affected by this election, and I’m going to say a lot of things that aren’t necessarily indicative of my overall feelings about this country. For all of our faults, it’s still a country of amazing opportunity and privilege compared to a lot of other countries on this planet. I still love it here, despite being at odds with over half of my fellow citizens on a regular basis. So really, and genuinely, congratulations on becoming a citizen, and welcome to the fold.
privilege
Do you think that privilege comes from the enlightenment of our politicians? From the population as a whole just working harder than in other places? Is it perhaps conjured from magic? Or would you consider that it was privilege derived from the well-documented and brutal exploitation of the global south?
Thank you! I’m very lucky in that I was claiming what was already a birth right through my parents, so my citizenship was really not as tough as people actually immigrating and going through the whole intrusive process.
I still don’t consider the US my “home” per se, not like my birth country, but I’ve met some wonderful people, and my state is pretty blue, so I have no doubt my governor will be fighting the orange clown tooth and nail for four years. That being said, man the political atmosphere here can be…well, let’s just say I’m getting used to the “American exceptionalism” aspects of the culture.
You are not intelligent or informed. 20% voted him in. 55% of the people who voted, which was about 40% of the eligible voters.
Going passed the disinformation in your first line. The people who vote are all that matter in a democracy. The others are basically dependent on their decision making regardless of if its because they can’t or won’t.
You are not intelligent or informed.
Going passed the disinformation in your first line.
lmao “It’s disinformation when someone calls me unintelligent and uninformed”. What happened, did you get tired of people telling you “that’s not what ad hominem means” and reach for the next rhetorical pejorative that crossed your mind?
Are you justifying insulting folks in online debate? Do you think insults are appropriate to debate? This is a much simpler issue that does not even get to logic or reason as is dead on arrival once one gets that crass.
I made no value judgements about insulting people (you don’t really need to specify “in online debate”), I was amused by the fact that you called it “disinformation” when it was just an insult and pointing out how silly it was.
yeah the disinformation was me trying to be clever in my reply. yes it was clearly and insult but since it was one that was based on the idea that the replier has some knowledge about my level of intelligence or how well informed I am (although the statement made ironically usually implies an and when phrased that way) I decided to call it disinformation. IE its my way of saying I am well educated, score well on tests, and have a much broader knowledge set than at least most people I know and I have worked in academia and live in a major metropolitan area (note if you limit it to academia my knowledge set becomes significantly more average)
It just makes you sound like a dweeb because “disinformation” is the dem-aligned version of “fake news”. I don’t have the slightest interest interest in your life story.
Why do different elections have different vote totals? Why is non-voting a significant bloc?
By design. Voting day is not a holiday and on a work day. Poor and working class are disenfranchised as a result. Fewer turn out because it’s not worth skipping work to stand in voting lines for hours.
Yes, why does this count vary from election to election?
Shit. I think I replied to the wrong comment with this. Sorry.
I’m not impressed by this analysis.
- It doesn’t account for those who stayed home.
- It doesn’t account those who would have voted for Sanders instead of Trump if that option were actually available to them.
- Who did they think would be excited to volunteer to canvass for Democratic genocidaires? The DNC knowingly forfeited their ground game.
I really cannot see how anyone who would vote for trump would vote for sanders. its like apples and poison ivy. I don’t get those who don’t vote in a democracy either. I hate living in this eroding time period but way the hell glad to be living when democracy is considered the standard form of government. On tope of it we get to vote for the office, and get to vote for people to run for the office, and can sign signatures to get people on the ballot to run for office. I feel like people really don’t have a good sense of human history.
We literally saw it happen. It is well documented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanders–Trump_voters
Yeah I just don’t see it. They could not be more different to me. I have no idea what measure these people are using that they would flip between those two. so I get they exist but its so outside my perspective I can’t grok the individual who is like that. Its like flat earthers for me.
They couldn’t be more different to me, either, but we think is irrelevant. Whatever their reasons, and no matter how alien those reasons might be to you and me, significant numbers of people really did flip.
That’s how the petty bourgeoisie rolls.
Bernie would raise wages, Trump will give tax cuts. The promise is that people will have more than the minimum. Biden/Harris were telling everyone the economy is great when we all knew it wasn’t and we’re all worse off than we were 4 yeats ago.
Look at the material circumstances.
(Just… set aside that Trump’s tax cuts mostly go to the rich. It’s the narrative that sways voters more than the reality.)
I mean it was doing well vs what was given to them. Its still flabbergasts me the comments of trump for the economy and that biden caused inflation. Inflation started being unusually high in april 2021 and biden took office in january. He did not cause the inflation from 3 months as president. I mean if our system of government needs to run on narratives and not actual truth then I guess trump is the least of our problems.
The inflation stemmed from pandemic-justified price gouging on groceries and private equity purchases of rental properties. Government absolutely could have addressed this- even just continuing pandemic level food stamps would have helped immensely, but Biden ended it.
Biden pushed to take money and support away from people so he could declare the pandemic was over.
That’s truth. Recognize it.
What no political theory does to a mfer
Trump offers a fake anti-establishment for people who are rightfully mad at the state. Only a working class party can direct that towards actual improvement.
Problem is obviously that a working class party wouldn’t be funded and backed by billionaire capitalists the way the duopoly is; that’s the point of liberal “democracies” — keeping capitalist parties in power.
This is why citizens united is basically the worst thing to come out of the millenia. So far. In the US at least.
Bernie can’t even garner the support of his own party, let alone the whole country. What are you guys on??
Not to mention the constant complaint about old people in politics while demanding more of this dinosaur?
You think the party elects presidents? It doesn’t. People do, not politicians or parties. Your myopic view is what’s wrong with American elections, particularly Democrats: the idea that a party can win by virtue of appeal to the machine.
Bernie would have won in 2016 if HRC, Wasserman-Schultz, Donna Brasil, and the DNC hadn’t subverted his nomination. Again in 2020 if the DNC, Kamala, and the other candidates hadn’t dropped out in favor of Biden against Sanders.
The idea that any candidate is owed the presidency is fucked. So is your misunderstanding of the problem.
Bernie has a lot more energy than Trump and Biden combined, tbh.
He doesnt get support because he actually supports the working class. The fundamental thing us left folks have to accept is the democratic party simply isnt a left wing party. The left doesnt exist anymore in the US.
The parties are right wing conservatives called Democrats vs fascist psychopaths that call themselves Conservatives.
The reality simply is that the left is the right, and the right isnt even on the chart anymore. The actual left doesnt even have representation at this point.
Voters have to start getting a lot louder about this, in more obnoxious ways. Protesting has to happen, at minimum.
No point in arguing with the Bernie Bros. It’s analogous to the MAGA cult at this point, the blind devotion. The only difference was Trump was able to win his primaries.
America just voted for an old dude who can’t string two sentences together, and can barely walk unaided. Do you really think the “too old” argument holds water?
No, Democratic Party would throw an election rather than move an inch to the left.
If this is how he felt the last year, he’s just as culpable as all of the other fucks who stayed home and didn’t vote. Fuck him and his Monday morning quarterbacking.
Bernie is a bastard, but I think it’s backwards thinking to blame voters rather than candidates. In a nominal democracy, it’s the job of the candidates to appeal to people to get votes. If there is any merit to this idea, we must conclude that the failure was the Harris campaign for not generating the confidence needed to vote for her – which is a very expected outcome when you’re running as reactionary a campaign as she did, calling the wall a “good idea” and so on.
Yep. From a systems analyst perspective, if there’s a problem with a couple people, it’s because they’re idiots. If a lot of people are having a problem, it’s a systems issue. In this case, the DNC and their shit messaging.
It’s like they hired an intern to do their marketing. They had a few funny clap backs on socials but they didn’t actually pivot to appeal to their target demographics. Fucking marketing 101.
The most relevant paragraph imo
Bernie’s coalition was filled with the exact type of voters who are now flocking to Donald Trump: Working class voters of all races, young people, and, critically, the much-derided bros. The top contributors to Bernie’s campaign often held jobs at places like Amazon and Walmart. The unions loved him. And— never forget — he earned the coveted Joe Rogan endorsement that Trump also received the day before the election this year. It turns out, the Bernie-to-Trump pipeline is real! While that has always been used as an epithet to smear Bernie and his movement, with the implication that social democracy is just a cover for or gateway drug to right wing authoritarianism, the truth is that this pipeline speaks to the power and appeal of Bernie’s vision as an effective antidote to Trumpism. When these voters had a choice between Trump and Bernie, they chose Bernie. For many of them now that the choice is between Trump and the dried out husk of neoliberalism, they’re going Trump.
Bernie’s coalition was filled with the exact type of voters who are now flocking to Donald Trump… It turns out, the Bernie-to-Trump pipeline is real!
Except this election wasn’t decided by voters switching sides, it was decided by something like 16 million Biden voters not showing up for Harris or Trump, who himself lost about 2 million votes from his 2020 total.
For those 16 million who sucked it up and voted for Biden in 2020, the choice this time wasn’t Harris or Trump, it was Harris or staying home.
