Let’s say just like for example like MacOS. It’s awesome we have so many tools but at the same time lack of some kind of standardization can seem like nothing works and you get overwhelmed. I’m asking for people that want to support Linux or not so tech-savy people.
More appealing? Linux runs basically all server infrastructure where even Microsoft bent the knee for Azure & Windows Subsystem for Linux. If we are talking about Desktop Linux, it will remain popular with those building software for easier/better dev tooling & wanting to better understand the systems their production code is run on. As software becomes more intergral to our lives & knowing how to write/debug it rises, folks will slowly keep trickling in as the have for decades where more & more software is treating Linux (& the web, & since BSDs, et al. are running similar software such as GTK they are also included) as a primary target. The other desktop OSs continue to shoot themselves in the foot injecting ads into the OS or denying system-level access to the machine you own.
A would say a better focus is mobile Linux… as casual users have migrated away from desktop OSs, where Android & iOS’s walls are holding them captive.
Good S0ix support. At the moment, Linux mostly fails to sleep correctly on modern S0ix laptops, which happens to be most modern laptops.
This means the battery drains incredibly fast, and S0ix features aren’t being used, which is unfortunate as it has potential for quick wake, lid closed actions and limiting battery drain while asleep (since S0ix can eventually hibernate automatically from a sleep state)
Also the boot loader could be improved, systemd-boot needs to support secure boot natively so we can be rid of the slow, ancient and scary-looking GRUB.
Immutable distros like Silverblue or Bazzite are the only path I see that can work for normies. However flatpak itself has to mature more, theming anomalies need to be dealt with somehow for example.
Mint is only good to ease a technically inclined person into the linux world.
It depends on which user and their workflow. For example, Graphics Designer use Photoshop compare to GIMP because of native CMYK for printing as well as non-destructive effects. Most people will be fine using GIMP.
I bring this up as I tend to see people on Lemmy and even in online space that talks about open source that would bitch about “normies” being too stubborn for not trying Linux or any open-source projects in general but never think about how much compromise they had to do if they do go down the open-source route.
- Idiot proofing
- Automation, integration and premade scripts and GUI tools for the use of tools such as wine and other pain point relief software
- Idiot proofing
- Decrease choice fatigue by decreasing the number of choices visible by default as much as possible (Ubuntu is an okay example/starting point in my opinion)
- Make a one-stop-shop wiki or equivalent with the specific purpose of giving explanations to non Linux-savvy people
I think that the proliferation of software/app centers is a great development when it comes to package management. Guides should mention them as an option to install whatever packages are needed, as a lot of people are clearly afraid of terminals.
Which leads to the “more GUI tools” point, which I’m sure everyone knows by now.
Also, you know how Windows update is so aggressive with getting you to update? That’s for a reason.
I think Linux works so good right now, that most of the appeal will come from third party vendors supporting Linux. The few anticheats and big apps like photoshop and sony vegas are used by many and are still a big obstacle which Linux can’t magically fix that easily.
What I’ve also noticed makes it appeal a lot to the people around me, is that when suggesting Linux, I also offer them tech support free of charge for whatever problem they have.
you can’t because it’s explicitly against the whole point of having endless choices. when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
hardware compatibility is also a huge problem. for everyone that says “it works fine for me” there are a thousand others for whom it does not.
I get downvoted to oblivion when I point out “just works” isn’t true.
You make a great point about endless choices.
No single UI, no single set of tools, those are massive barriers. And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
And it’s why Windows became the de facto standard: single UI, consistent toolset.
No so true after win 7, there’s a bunch of legacy menu.
It’s at least the same inconsistent toolset as everyone else. Windows 10? Ok go through this multi step process. 11? Ok this other slightly different process.
VS Linux you have 700 consistent toolsets, and 70000000 inconsistent toolsets.
when everyone works on something different, the quality spreads out to where it’s mostly just mediocre stuff across the board.
I wouldn’t say that’s the only problem. We have pretty high quality stuff on Linux. The other problem is that choice always means differences between options which makes perfect integration hard or even impossible.
Yeah but you can have default choices that are guarantee to work.
And yeah preinstalled checked hardware would be ideal.
I feel like there’s also the point that on Mac OS a lot of stuff “just works” because everything else just doesn’t work at all. I have a number of things that just aren’t going to work at all on Mac. Linux is obviously much more permissive, which leads to a lot more kinda working stuff that just wouldn’t work at all on Mac.
Kinda don’t think you can its one of the beauties of Linux, there’s so many different flavors of it. Best thing that would’ve helped me as a beginner would’ve been like a collection of all the wiki’s and basic knowledge in a single space instead of searching through different sites for a problem or terminal commands, which I bet exists but I just never looked too hard. Also documentation of common problems would’ve been big for me (especially for older devices) like drivers no longer being supported by kernels and solutions like using the open source version instead.
Linux actually needs to just work first
I don’t think we do, but that’s a feature, not a bug. Here’s why:
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There was a great post a few days ago about how Linux is a digital 3rd Space. It’s about spending time cultivating the system and building a relationship with it, instead of expecting it to be transparent while you use it. This creates a positive relationship with your computer and OS, seeing it as more a labor of love than an impediment to being as productive as possible (the capitalist mindset).
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Nothing “just works.” That’s a marketing phrase. Windows and Mac only “just work” if the most you ever do is web-browsing and note-taking in notepad. Anything else and you incite cognitive dissonance: hold onto the delusion at the price of doing what you’re trying to do, or accept that these systems aren’t as good as their marketing? The same thread I mentioned earlier talked about how we give Linux more lenience because of the relationship we have with it, instead of seeing it as just a tool for productivity.
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Having a barrier of entry keeps general purpose communities like this from being flooded with off-topic discourse that achieves nothing. And no, I’m not just talking about the Yahoo Answers-level questions like “how to change volume Linux???” Think stuff like “What’s the most stargender-friendly Linux distro?” and “How do we make Linux profitable?” and “what Linux distro would Daddy Trump use?” and “where my other Linux simping /pol/t*rds at (socialist Stallman****rs BTFO)???” Even if there is absolutely perfect moderation and you never see these posts directly, these people would still be coming in and finding ways that skirt the rules to inject this discourse into these communities; and instead of being dismissed as trolls, there would be many, many people who think we should hear them out (or at least defend their right to Free Speech).
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Finally, it already “just works” for the aforementioned note-taking and web-browsing. The only thing that’s stopping more not so tech-savvy people is that it’s not the de facto pre-installed OS on the PC you pick up from Best Buy (and not Walmart, because you want people to think you’re tech-savvy, so you go to the place with a dedicated “geek squad”). The only way it starts combating Windows in this domain is by marketing agreements with mainstream hardware manufacturers (like Dell and HP); this means that the organization responsible for representing Linux would need the money to make such agreements… Which would mean turning it into a for-profit OS. Which would necessitate closing the source. Which would mean it just becomes another proprietary OS that stands for all that Linux is against.
And this ladies and gentlemen is what is wrong with Linux and its communities.
Technological gatekeeping is THE major problem in the Linux world. You use Linux to use Linux. You intentionally do not want people that you consider “below” you to use Linux or even be present in your communities.
Most people use computers to get something done. Be it development, gaming, consuming multimedia, or just “web browsing” (which you intentionally use to degrade people “just” doing that). They do not use computers to use computers. They don’t need to and should need to. If you want to do this, good for you.
But stop trying to gatekeep people out of it. That’s just an a****** behaviour.
You intentionally do not want people that you consider “below” you to use Linux or even be present in your communities.
No, but I do want my communities to stay on-topic and not be derailed by Discourse™
Who I consider beneath me is wholly unrelated to their ability to use a computer, and entirely related to their ability to engage with others in a mature fashion, especially those they disagree with.
Most people use computers to get something done. Be it development, gaming, consuming multimedia, or just “web browsing”
I realize most people use computers for more than web-browsing, but ask anybody who games, uses multimedia software, or develops how often they have issues with their workflow.
(which you intentionally use to degrade people “just” doing that)
No I don’t. Can you quote where I did so, or is it just a vibe you got when reading in the pretentious dickwad tone you seem to be projecting onto me?
But stop trying to gatekeep people out of it
I’m not, you’re projecting that onto me again. If you want to use Linux, use Linux. Come here and talk about how you use Linux, or ask whatever questions about Linux you want. If you don’t want to use Linux, or don’t want to to talk about Linux, take it to the appropriate community.
If keeping communities on-topic and troll-free is “gatekeeping,” then I don’t give a fuck how you feel about it.
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On top of being preinstalled, we also need google search-able instructions that avoid the terminal altogether. People are afraid of the terminal, it doesn’t matter why, it just is. However that would entail different sets of instructions for each DE and lots of screenshots.
This is the biggest thing. I’m very comfortable in Bash, but that is not the norm; the second my wife needs to run
sudo apt get, she’s out, fuck thatBut that’s several pages of point and click vs. a few lines to copy and paste,
Copy pasting strange commands people will not memorise does not solve it! To keep non IT people on Linux, they need to find out how their desktop GUI works, so they are in control and happy to stay. The aim is not to use the minimum possible time writing the tips. Thrusting an unfamiliar environment on people is sure to scare them away, and is bad usability.
Thrusting in an unfamiliar environment is how I got an STD
Do not copy and paste into Bash if you don’t understand the commands you’re pasting in
Who said I don’t understand them? I’ve done point and click tutorials. They don’t only take forever to follow, they also take forever to make.
Look at this monstrosity:
Holy shit, the copy and paste parts are the easiest parts of them all
Fair; that was mostly a general warning, not necessarily directed at you, because many people do copypaste terminal commands without knowing what they are actually doing.
As long as you understand what a command does, absolutely go for it. No point typing that shit out when somebody else already has
Honestly maybe we need something like a portable guided tour format (you the “see what’s new in …” things but from strangers for specific thing).
That’s an interesting idea, but the problem with UIs is you need some kind of a format to interact with all of the toolkits and legacy programs just to be able to figure out where on the screen the button you need to click is
I searched but never ever found a website with Linux help specially for non IT people. This is seriously needed. Everywhere I’ve looked, gatekeepers with no clue about the GUI solutions, insist people use the command line for day to day user tasks. Sure things vary between desktop environments, but it’s important people learn about their desktop. It’s how they get comfortable, and stay. And not stuck reliant on strangers having to spoon feed them cryptic text commands each time. I’d be happy to help contribute. As I’ve found GUI ways to do nearly everything.
I’m tech literate and use the command line daily. I enjoy how powerful it is but I also enjoy the ease of point and click on windows.
After a hard day coding at work I much prefer poking around windows than using a command line on Linux.
I will say part of problem is knowledgeable volunteers will almost always want to just cp and paste a command string over the docs needed to walk someone through doing it in the current version of GUI.
I’ve done both. Repeatable user instructions for GUIs IS NOT FUN. Maybe if we can get some automation to turn vague directions into detailed ones and better yet testable (supporting something like OpenQA) it might help lower the burden for a project to do so.
Needs to be pre installed, most people don’t know how to reset their PC, let alone install a new OS.
Most people have had great answers coming from the company side of things. I’ll take it from the standpoint of individuals like us helping someone linux curious see the light, while still having the “just works” experience.
Do not give them any choices. None. Put them on your stable distro of choice for a new user, call whatever that is “Linux”, and be on your way.
But why? Isn’t that antithetical to everything we value? Yes and no. We value choice almost above anything else, but that doesn’t “just work” for most people. Which of those do you value more?
No-one who buys a PC with windows preinstalled gets any choice at all… and had the preinstalled malware cme with it.
That’s true. Most are perfectly fine provided they have a computer ready to use. Straight out of the box. Immediately. The lack of choice itself is comforting. Everything moves forward. No lateral motion.
We must provide them that type of “thing that just works”. Constantly move forward. What is comfortable. What is familiar.
I will be checking this thread out later for potential idiot proof distros
My vote is always for plain ol Debian. If you don’t need a bleeding edge system, Debian will just work.
What about for Nvidia gaming though?
Bazzite. Idiot proof Nvidia gaming. I’ve installed it for a few Windows-using friends and they’ve had no complaints.
Simple, start teaching it in elementary school all the way up through high school. Apple did it long ago and got apple users out of those kids. Microsoft does it now, and now you have Windows users. Just need the computer education to be Linux centric from the start. It’s not that it’s different, it’s that it’s not what they grew up with and were taught.
Windows hasn’t been in schools for a while. It is all Chrome OS
I think it depends. If a school has a laptop for each student, it is most certainly a Chromebook. However, a lot of schools also have a mix of systems. In elementary school, I was taught to use Microsoft Office on Windows, for instance. At my high school, all the students had Chromebooks, but there were also some labs with Windows machines; graphic design, photography, and film classes had labs full of 5K iMacs.
Chromebooks are low cost and easy to manage. Unless it is for a highly specific use I wouldn’t be surprised if a school was all Chromebooks and Chromeboxes.
Also there is a public high school full of expensive macs? That’s wild
Not exactly “full of” - it was more like 3 classrooms with 30 each. Still a lot of Macs, but keep in mind this was a high school of 2000 students. Also, I’m pretty sure the Macs were paid for with grants for the visual arts programs rather than standard public funding.
