The FBI is seeking to interview Donald Trump in its investigation of the assassination attempt to obtain a victim statement, a standard part of the investigation because he is a crime victim, according to US official.
Fun tangential fact: Trump’s collusion was found to be legally okay per the Mueller report because they had no evidence they directly coordinated with each other. This is very similar to how SuperPACS cannot directly coordinate with election campaigns but simply engage in obvious call-and-response as Trump did with Russia. Corrupt as fuck.
Different collusion. And they didn’t say it was okay - just that they didn’t have any evidence that Trump himself had been involved.
Then the report went on to say as clearly as the justice department is allowed to say that Trump absolutely engaged in obstruction of justice. They couldn’t indict a sitting President, and you can’t make a public accusation against someone you aren’t going to indict.
Mueller said that if Trump were innocent of obstruction, he’d say he was, but that he would not say that. He laid out specific criteria for what constitutes obstruction, cited many specific occasions in which he met all those criteria, testified before Congress that if he weren’t the sitting President he would have brought charges against him, and said directly that it was Congress’s duty to impeach him.
But somehow the GOP convinced everyone that the Mueller report was an exonneration.
I thought there was lots of evidence but mueller basically said it wasn’t his place to prosecute and I’m going to leave it up to congress to do their job and prosecute.
Yep it was a cop-out. I will post my copy-pasta on this for anyone’s interest, but basically.
In the worst case, it was laziness and passing the buck by Mueller; in the best case it was him trying to dodge Barr from closing the case in the DOJ. Either way the recommended charges brought forward had nothing to do with conspiracy or coordination, but rather perjury and obstruction.
Edit: My original write-up on Mueller Report:
There are several parts to the Mueller report: obstruction, coordination/collusion, and Russian interference being the main three. When reading the Mueller report in terms of “collusion”, keep in mind that there is the finest of lines with what Trump and Putin did that really let’s him off on technicality than the spirit of the law itself. I’ll dive in more on this below.
Remember how people made fun of SuperPACs coordination loophole? To my understanding, this is basically that. It may not be grounds for legal charges, but it is 10000% an ethics violation worthy of impeachment.
I want to go over some info in the Mueller report, because I’m already seeing a concerted effort by Trump trolls to deny reality, and this not helping when Barr is saying blatant lies revolving around collusion. For many, this will probably be a refresher, but it’s important to keep some of this info fresh. Feel free to add/clarify/correct.
On obstruction, Mueller reported:
Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgement. The evidence we obtained about the President’s actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
Mueller is essentially saying that there is a smell that reeks of obstruction, there’s evidence of obstruction (12 highlighted instances), and he cannot adequately rule it out; but there are obstacles for him from further investigating. So he shined a light, saw some suspicious things, but not enough to prove anything, and had to turn the light off before adequately clearing the room—so to speak, hence “not exonerating” the President. It’s important to note that Mueller explicitly wrote that Trump was spared from obstruction charges because people in his cabinet refused to follow his orders. It’s widely understood that his report is passing the the buck to Congress, presumably knowing the AG position going back to Whitaker was compromised. Remember that the U.S. Attorney General is the People’s Attorney, not Trump’s personal defense lawyer.
It would be unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there can be no court resolution of the actual charge.
This makes clear that Trump was not charged with a crime strictly because a “sitting president” is essentially above the law, and thus he made no determination in lieu of the inability to follow through with proceedings.
Otherwise, “If we had confidence the President did not commit a crime, we would have said so,” could be construed as saying, “We cannot rule out that trump committed a crime, but the bar to charge was not met” whereas with the latter additional quote, that turns the meaning to, “We would have prosecuted him, had our hands not been tied by the protections of a sitting President.”
Granted, this info was also in the report, but in less laymen terms.
A thousand former Federal Prosectors agree the evidence before Trump warrants indictment. There is enough evidence to charge Trump of crimes, but because of the position he holds he is protected.
Next on Collusion vs Conspiracy vs Coordinated: (I will mark via [#] and bold key follow-up points)
Let’s try to unpack what Mueller’s report means when they write:
In evaluating whether evidence about collective action of multiple individuals constituted a crime, we applied the framework of conspiracy law, not the concept of "collusion.[1] In so doing, the Office recognized that the word “collud[ e ]” was used in communications with the Acting Attorney General confirming certain aspects of the investigation’s scope and that the term has frequently been invoked in public reporting about the investigation. But collusion is not a specific offense or theory of liability found in the United States Code, nor is it a term of art in federal criminal law. For those reasons , [2] the Office’s focus in analyzing questions of joint criminal liability was on conspiracy as defined in federal law. In connection with that analysis, [3] we addressed the factual question whether members of the Trump Campaign “coordinat[ ed]”-a term that appears in the appointment order-with Russian election interference activities. Like collusion, “coordination” does not have a settled definition in federal criminal law.
[4]We understood coordination to require an agreement-tacit or express - between the Trump Campaign and the Russian government on election interference. That requires more than the two parties taking actions that were informed by or responsive to the other’s actions or interests. We applied the term coordination in that sense when stating in the report that the investigation did not establish that the Trump Campaign coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.
[1] - Mueller is noting that Collusion is not a Federal statute and is highlighting its blatant use in the media (as well as from Trump).
[2] - Mueller is noting that the closest match based on the directive of the Special Counsel in the first is Conspiracy, which is a possible Federal crime
[3] - Mueller is highlighting that the initial order to form the Special Counsel emphasized investigating “coordination” between the Russian Government and Donald Trump
[4] - Coordination under the purview of conspiracy required an explicit agreement to coordinate, as opposed to both reading what the others were doing, reacting to in a means to mutually benefit each other. This is the kind of nonsense SuperPACs run under by funneling unlimited amounts of money to support a candidate without direct coordination, but obviously with an implicit intent to (a) further the agendas of the SuperPAC, and (b) advance the campaign of the candidate (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).
Some questions going forward:
Would/Should Trump Supporters care that both Russia and Trump indirectly coordinated? Especially given Trump said, “Russia, if you’re listening…”? That is, even if there was no legal crime committed, is it not questionable and/or ethical to have this relationship with a foreign power with a poor record? Should it not raise alarm-bells that such a President “trusts” merely the “word” of an adversary in a cold-war mindset over his own intelligence agencies & allies?
What aspect of “collusion” or related charges may have been handed off in the sealed 12 other investigations?
Is it lawful and (more importantly) ethical that Trump didn’t get charged with a crime because his attempt failed? In other words I’ve heard it framed, is a person spared charges because the hitman refuses to carry out a murder?
How can ignorance be a defense for those of the Trump campaign?
On obstruction, why explicitly could Mueller’s team not “reach that judgement” on obstruction, and what “difficult issues” are you referring to which prevent ruling out the occurrence of any criminal conduct?
And here’s the kicker: Mueller’s report on obstruction is irrelevant to the fact, which Mueller pointed out, that Russia hacked our election system with the expressed intent of supporting Trump. Now put on your critical-thinking cap and ask yourself three questions:
Why would Trump trust Putin’s word over the unprecedented joint-report consensus of his own intelligence agencies (CIA, FBI, NSA, and DHS + more), Dutch ally intelligence, and private cybersecurity firms? I mean if those same people came to a conclusion that Al Qaeda was about to launch an attack, wouldn’t you expect the President to trust them?
Why would Putin want Trump to win over Hillary Clinton?
If (hypothetically) Barack Obama had done exactly the same thing with Angela Merkel or someone from Kenya, would the Right-wing media, conservative base, Tea Party, and Republican officials not be going berserk? Why the double-standard…?
Oh I dunno, Chicago has had a active serial rapist and murderer for 20 years with more than 50 victims and more than 50 deaths that no one really talks about.
Meh, we had that in Canada and the guy sold the meat all over for decades. the victims were indigenous prostitutes, so no fucks were given for a long, loooong time.
Look, if you want to get people to talk about your crimes you need to do a better job of taunting the police. Whining about it on Lemmy isn’t going to make it happen.
I’m well aware, I just don’t think it’s particularly funny to joke about when there’s a pretty high likelihood that someone is being chained raped and tortured before dying in an abandoned building while the Chicago police actively avoid investigation that would reveal the pattern.
Fun tangential fact: Trump’s collusion was found to be legally okay per the Mueller report because they had no evidence they directly coordinated with each other. This is very similar to how SuperPACS cannot directly coordinate with election campaigns but simply engage in obvious call-and-response as Trump did with Russia. Corrupt as fuck.
Muller didn’t even pretend to follow the money, I don’t buy this.
Rosenstein instructed Mueller not to investigate Trump’s financial dealings in Russia.
Different collusion. And they didn’t say it was okay - just that they didn’t have any evidence that Trump himself had been involved.
Then the report went on to say as clearly as the justice department is allowed to say that Trump absolutely engaged in obstruction of justice. They couldn’t indict a sitting President, and you can’t make a public accusation against someone you aren’t going to indict.
Mueller said that if Trump were innocent of obstruction, he’d say he was, but that he would not say that. He laid out specific criteria for what constitutes obstruction, cited many specific occasions in which he met all those criteria, testified before Congress that if he weren’t the sitting President he would have brought charges against him, and said directly that it was Congress’s duty to impeach him.
But somehow the GOP convinced everyone that the Mueller report was an exonneration.
I thought there was lots of evidence but mueller basically said it wasn’t his place to prosecute and I’m going to leave it up to congress to do their job and prosecute.
They did not do their job.
Yep it was a cop-out. I will post my copy-pasta on this for anyone’s interest, but basically.
In the worst case, it was laziness and passing the buck by Mueller; in the best case it was him trying to dodge Barr from closing the case in the DOJ. Either way the recommended charges brought forward had nothing to do with conspiracy or coordination, but rather perjury and obstruction.
Edit: My original write-up on Mueller Report:
There are several parts to the Mueller report: obstruction, coordination/collusion, and Russian interference being the main three. When reading the Mueller report in terms of “collusion”, keep in mind that there is the finest of lines with what Trump and Putin did that really let’s him off on technicality than the spirit of the law itself. I’ll dive in more on this below.
Remember how people made fun of SuperPACs coordination loophole? To my understanding, this is basically that. It may not be grounds for legal charges, but it is 10000% an ethics violation worthy of impeachment.
I want to go over some info in the Mueller report, because I’m already seeing a concerted effort by Trump trolls to deny reality, and this not helping when Barr is saying blatant lies revolving around collusion. For many, this will probably be a refresher, but it’s important to keep some of this info fresh. Feel free to add/clarify/correct.
On obstruction, Mueller reported:
Mueller is essentially saying that there is a smell that reeks of obstruction, there’s evidence of obstruction (12 highlighted instances), and he cannot adequately rule it out; but there are obstacles for him from further investigating. So he shined a light, saw some suspicious things, but not enough to prove anything, and had to turn the light off before adequately clearing the room—so to speak, hence “not exonerating” the President. It’s important to note that Mueller explicitly wrote that Trump was spared from obstruction charges because people in his cabinet refused to follow his orders. It’s widely understood that his report is passing the the buck to Congress, presumably knowing the AG position going back to Whitaker was compromised. Remember that the U.S. Attorney General is the People’s Attorney, not Trump’s personal defense lawyer.
To add to this, the biggest headline of Mueller’s press briefing should be from the 6:05 marker when Mueller states::
This makes clear that Trump was not charged with a crime strictly because a “sitting president” is essentially above the law, and thus he made no determination in lieu of the inability to follow through with proceedings.
Otherwise, “If we had confidence the President did not commit a crime, we would have said so,” could be construed as saying, “We cannot rule out that trump committed a crime, but the bar to charge was not met” whereas with the latter additional quote, that turns the meaning to, “We would have prosecuted him, had our hands not been tied by the protections of a sitting President.”
Granted, this info was also in the report, but in less laymen terms.
A thousand former Federal Prosectors agree the evidence before Trump warrants indictment. There is enough evidence to charge Trump of crimes, but because of the position he holds he is protected.
Next on Collusion vs Conspiracy vs Coordinated: (I will mark via [#] and bold key follow-up points)
Let’s try to unpack what Mueller’s report means when they write:
[1] - Mueller is noting that Collusion is not a Federal statute and is highlighting its blatant use in the media (as well as from Trump).
[2] - Mueller is noting that the closest match based on the directive of the Special Counsel in the first is Conspiracy, which is a possible Federal crime
[3] - Mueller is highlighting that the initial order to form the Special Counsel emphasized investigating “coordination” between the Russian Government and Donald Trump
[4] - Coordination under the purview of conspiracy required an explicit agreement to coordinate, as opposed to both reading what the others were doing, reacting to in a means to mutually benefit each other. This is the kind of nonsense SuperPACs run under by funneling unlimited amounts of money to support a candidate without direct coordination, but obviously with an implicit intent to (a) further the agendas of the SuperPAC, and (b) advance the campaign of the candidate (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).
Some questions going forward:
Would/Should Trump Supporters care that both Russia and Trump indirectly coordinated? Especially given Trump said, “Russia, if you’re listening…”? That is, even if there was no legal crime committed, is it not questionable and/or ethical to have this relationship with a foreign power with a poor record? Should it not raise alarm-bells that such a President “trusts” merely the “word” of an adversary in a cold-war mindset over his own intelligence agencies & allies?
What aspect of “collusion” or related charges may have been handed off in the sealed 12 other investigations?
Is it lawful and (more importantly) ethical that Trump didn’t get charged with a crime because his attempt failed? In other words I’ve heard it framed, is a person spared charges because the hitman refuses to carry out a murder?
How can ignorance be a defense for those of the Trump campaign?
On obstruction, why explicitly could Mueller’s team not “reach that judgement” on obstruction, and what “difficult issues” are you referring to which prevent ruling out the occurrence of any criminal conduct?
And here’s the kicker: Mueller’s report on obstruction is irrelevant to the fact, which Mueller pointed out, that Russia hacked our election system with the expressed intent of supporting Trump. Now put on your critical-thinking cap and ask yourself three questions:
Why would Trump trust Putin’s word over the unprecedented joint-report consensus of his own intelligence agencies (CIA, FBI, NSA, and DHS + more), Dutch ally intelligence, and private cybersecurity firms? I mean if those same people came to a conclusion that Al Qaeda was about to launch an attack, wouldn’t you expect the President to trust them?
Why would Putin want Trump to win over Hillary Clinton?
If (hypothetically) Barack Obama had done exactly the same thing with Angela Merkel or someone from Kenya, would the Right-wing media, conservative base, Tea Party, and Republican officials not be going berserk? Why the double-standard…?
The answers should be quite obvious.
That is about as unfun a fact as I can think of.
Challenge accepted. Fun fact, your bones are wet.
Oh I dunno, Chicago has had a active serial rapist and murderer for 20 years with more than 50 victims and more than 50 deaths that no one really talks about.
Meh, we had that in Canada and the guy sold the meat all over for decades. the victims were indigenous prostitutes, so no fucks were given for a long, loooong time.
Look, if you want to get people to talk about your crimes you need to do a better job of taunting the police. Whining about it on Lemmy isn’t going to make it happen.
That’s exactly how it happens. Literally the only places I’ve seen reporting on it is social media.
They were joking about you being a serial killer in Chicago and this being how you admit it.
I’m well aware, I just don’t think it’s particularly funny to joke about when there’s a pretty high likelihood that someone is being chained raped and tortured before dying in an abandoned building while the Chicago police actively avoid investigation that would reveal the pattern.
Well, maybe that’s the pattern.
100% is.
People just need to know since the police clearly don’t.
Yep, definitely a cop.
Is there anything I can read about this? First time I’m hearing about it.
Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Strangler assuming it’s this one. If it is one guy, it’s definitely a cop.